Posted on 08/12/2008 3:58:03 AM PDT by Gamecock
What a sad ordeal this Brown vs. Osteen trial is!
Victoria Osteen appears to have behaved badly on the Continental plane in the December, 2005 incident.
Sharon Brown, the flight attendant, claims that she endured physical, mental and even spiritual harm because of the incident. If indeed Sharon experienced all of the hurt she describes, she is to be pitied.
Yet, did Sharon's treatment warrant a lawsuit against Victoria? I don't think so.
This incident happened 2.5 years ago. In those thirty months, it seems that a mediator could have said something like this to both women:
--"Victoria, a soft answer turns away wrath (Proverbs 15:1). The most sublime words spoken in the English language are these: 'I am sorry. I acted so inappropriately. Could you please forgive me?'"
--"Sharon, love never fails (I Corinthians 13:8). Rather than seeking punitive damages, why not turn a blind eye and deaf ear to offenses? God is the righteous judge before whom we will all stand some day. Show mercy."
Who knows? Maybe, it is not too late.
(Excerpt) Read more at chron.com ...
Oh well, I guess Ms Brown is persuing her "Best Life Now."
It’s all about making an unearned buck, don’tcha know?
Excellent points, imho.
AS you know, I’m not a fraction as disturbed with Joel et al as you are.
However, he ought to know that a Biblical model is all the MORE crucial for him in his position than a LOT of lesser things.
I don’t think Sharon Brown cares anything about what the Bible says - just getting her “Best Life Now”.
In reality, Sharon Brown should be fired. Not only does she sound like a sully stewardess you would never want, but one wrong little move and you are in court. Continental is too good of an airline to have this vermin providing cabin service.
When you practice “feel-good, prosperity religion” this is what happens. It cracks eventually.
Pep talks work for a while, but only Jesus can change the heart...and even then, the newborn Christian needs “meat” — not the pap being offered by the “it’s all about the tinglies” churches.
I pray the Osteens will come to their senses. I pray for the young lady involved that she will become aware of God’s will for conflict resolution and find a measure of peace.
Believing Romans 8:28 is great — but sometimes our idea of things working to the good is the polar opposite of God's idea of that. I've gone through things in my life that were horrible. No good to be seen in them, but looking back I can see God shaping and changing me through them.
Teaching R.8:28 is great — but teaching it to a lost and dying world is not and I'll tell you why. Because that scripture is mostly for Christians. It's not a redemptive scripture, it is an instructive one. He may be reaching people — but so many are quoting that scripture and using it for a pep talk...without applying the wealth of other scripture to their lives.
Hellfire and brimstone messages are often not effective. I know that. BUT a spot-on Biblically sound call for salvation fulfilling the Great Commission will NEVER return void. God's word will never, ever return void. The stirring of mens’ hearts just isn't our job. Yes, we're to teach, preach, instruct, exhort, pray...all that. But the leading of the heart is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Folks (and I used to be one of them) who forego the local fellowship of believers for the TV service shun clear Biblical instruction. We are to come together as a community. Not just an invisible “world” community of “believers” but as a tangible, hands-on fellowship. And if someone's church isn't filling that need, they should find out why. Ask questions, pray, pray and pray. If a church still doesn't fill the need (and I don't mean daycare — I'm talking spiritual meat here) and your efforts to change that have been fruitless, it is time to find a new church. We just did that and feel as though we've moved from starvation into plenty.
Yes, we all behave badly. There are times when I'm mortified by a reaction I've had in an instant. But the Lord continually instructs us and changes our hearts. I hope Mrs. Osteen takes this opportunity to present a wonderful testimony of God's grace. She has this wonderful chance to show the world how Christians handle conflict. Yes she's being sued, but she is called to compassion and love. Has she apologized publicly for her behavior? I don't know. If she hasn't, will she? I hope so! Because they know us by our fruit.
(Galatians 5:22, 23 The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. Against these things there is no law.)
7 Keys to Improving your Life? *snort*
How about worrying about your soul?! 7 keys? Okay. Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus.
There ya go.
;-)
“When you practice “feel-good, prosperity religion” this is what happens. It cracks eventually.”
I used to think the same thing about Lakewood; however, my views have changed over the years.
I do not attend Lakewood, but because I live in Houston, I know many that do. I have been in morning bible studies with friends who attend Lakewood; and I have friends, serious Christians, who attend Lakewood and are involved in teaching small groups.
They consider the message that goes out on TV and the sermon to be an evangelical tool. The message is not fake, but it is intentionally put into every-day words and ideas, not heavily based on the bible. The detailed bible teaching occurs in small groups. That’s their model for reaching unbelievers. Just to pick an obvious example, abortion will not be discussed on the TV sermon, but it is a topic that could come up in a small group teaching.
Again, this is a very different model from my church, a smaller bible church, where our sermons are more like a graduate class from a bible college. I prefer my church, of course; but to knock Lakewood as a prosperity church is not accurate.
Penteostal preachers are the ones most likely to take from the tithes basket and to use it for themselves, even when they have 20 or 20,000 members. My cousin is married to a Pentecostal preacher, and they own their own church, building and all of the land. All of their money is in their control. Most protestant preachers are paid a salaray, but pentecostal preachers are winners who can take all, tax exempt, just as if they are God himself.
Amen
I remember seeing Billy Graham in an interview once where he said he never rode in limousines, not because he thought it was wrong but because it LOOKED wrong that he as a preacher should do it.
And that has to do with the lawsuit ... how?
I take it, then, that you've flown first class with Sharon Brown as your flight attendant. You appear to have first hand knowledge of her abilities or lack thereof. You wouldn't be saying all those things based on one-sided media reports, I'm sure.
It has nothing to do with the lawsuit. Rather I'm throwing in my two cents on the character of the Osteens.
If you want me to comment on the lawsuit I'll be happy to:
Brown was assaulted by the spoiled little snot Victoria Osteen and deserves a monetary redress of grievance. The amount Brown is asking for is way out of line and she sure doesn't deserve nearly that much but certainly some punitive damages are justifiable.
Happy?
Gamecock: Don’t sue other Christians? Really? It seems to me the bible says to take your complaint to the elders of the Church to be settled. What church could she take Osteen to? When it’s the church elders themselves who have committed the sins (I write that with a sense of irony at the absurdity of Osteen being a church elder), who do you turn to? Do you settle quietly to avoid embarrassing the Church? As a Catholic, I’m sure you’ll take my suggestion that’s a bad idea. (... and that I’m not writing this for sectarian points.)
The good advice was given to to Sharon Osteen from Proverbs 15:1. It had not occurred to her. Why is that?
The advice offered to Brown would be excellent for Brown to hold in her heart, but to scorn Brown as several have done in this thread, siding with Osteen is perverse! Osteen is the one with the money that brings power. Osteen is the one with ecclesiastical authority. Where was Osteen’s mercy during her egregious behavior?
We do not know the truth of the matter, therefore it behooves us not to attack Joel Osteen based on the accusations against his wife. But to ascribe evil to his wife’s accuser?
Sorry, but that just ain’t right.
Again, take my advice as a Catholic: The accusers against the Church clergy in the early 1990s included many evil people, seeking to do much evil by their accusations. But Catholics have now learned well never to allow the flaws of an accuser to make you less vigilant against the sins of the powerful.
Matthew 5:40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
And Sharon is wrong in:
1 Corinthians 6:1 When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!
The experience of he Catholic church aside, both of them appear to be wrong on multiple levels, probably brought on by bad teaching received by both parties.
My point in dismissing the “Christian advice” to Brown is that we, as Christians, should aspire to justice; Even though the bible teaches it is preferable to accept our own cross, we shouldn’t crucify Ms. Brown.
I didn’t realize I was crucifying Ms Brown.
frankly, I think Vicky is as wrong as two left shoes.
Plenty valid points.
Though I certainly see Joel as far more Biblical ON THE WHOLE than most hereon seem to.
There’s no excuse for haughtiness particularly amongst God’s servants TO THE PEOPLE.
Agreed.
I only mean that in the context of the metaphor of making her bear her cross; I certainly didn’t mean you were crucifying Ms. Brown.
Yep, all about money.
My son brought his then toddler daughter out to visit us about 14 years ago on Continental. They refused to give his daughter any milk because he didn’t buy a seat for her on the plane. She sat on his lap. I don’t have too much respect for that kind of service.
My son brought his then toddler daughter out to visit us about 14 years ago on Continental. They refused to give his daughter any milk because he didn’t buy a seat for her on the plane. She sat on his lap. I don’t have too much respect for that kind of service.
I agree with you. I don’t listen to him a whole lot but when I do it’s always a blessing. My son and his wife came back to church and she to Christ through his ministry. I won’t criticize or judge him.
I came to know the Lord without a lot of evangelism or heavy Bible teaching. He drew me. I responded. You don’t know HOW God is going to draw the person He is pursuing.
Our church is a pentacostal type church and our pastors are given a salary. They sacrifice a great deal for our Body there. The head pastor took a 50% cut in pay because we were having financial problems a couple of years ago. He set the example of sacrifice. You folks always paint spirit filled churches with a dirty and broad brush,
AMEN, SR.
And who gives you the right to judge their character?
The same authority that gives you the right to think they good people when they are sucking old ladies social security checks up in the name of the Lord so they can live a lavish lifestyle.
Very well said and concise.
Thank you.
All pastors do not do that, not even TV pastors. You paint everyone with a broad and bitter brush.
Bitter?
No, I would be "bitter" if had given money to some televangelist foolishly believing they would use it to serve The Lord rather than themselves. I am no more "bitter" than I would be if someone on FR was telling me they supported Obama. I would simply consider them a fool and denounce their foolishness.
In case you did not read it I will share with you the wise and concise words of MHGinTN:
"Mrs. Osteen lists herself as ‘co-Pastor’ of the Osteen Church. She assaulted flight attendants during a flight. The reason Billy Graham thought it unseemly for him to ride in limousines was that it reflected adversely upon the Christian message. The Osteens see no such reflections as relevant, think of themselves as privileged, and treated the flight attendant(s) as ‘the little people serving them’. A punitive damages ruling might be in order from the attendant's perspective, but far more important is the revealing of what is in the heart of Victoria Osteen, co-Pastor of this church."
I wouldn’t dare to put myself in the position of judging another brother and sister in Christ. In Hebrews, He says not to criticize your brother and that seems to be what you and others enjoy doing. Let God be the judge. As YOU judge, so will you BE judged. Not a good place t be, Artemis.
However we are fortunate to have a Jury trial going on here and they ARE charged and ARE responsible for judging Victoria Osteen. I would be very surprised if they do not rule in favor of Ms Brown (not for the amount she is asking for though).
yes, THEY are to judge what she did wrong, but Christians are not to judge other Christians or to criticize them. I don’t say it, the Bible does.
Were I to believe that the Osteens were Christians instead of charlatans I might be forced to agree that it is improper for me to judge them.
I don't agree that The Bible prohibits criticism of other Christians but again it's a moot point as I don't believe God plays any role in the lives of the Osteens beyond a tool they can use for profiteering. Yes I am DEEPLY cynical of televangelist. All you have to do is look at the list of names to understand why;
Peter Popoff
Benny Hinn
Jimmy Swaggart
Oral Roberts
Jim Bakker
Ted Haggard
The problem is that a cult of personality is inevitable. With very rare exception these preachers begin to buy into their own celebrity. Often after scandals are uncovered the pastors denominational headquarters gets involved in order to set things right (example: The Assemblies of God cleaning up Jim Bakkers mess). In the case of the Osteen's there IS NO DENOMINATIONAL HEADQUARTERS. The Osteens answer to nobody. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. You are of course correct that The Bible says not to judge. It also says that we all fall short of the glory of The Lord. That means Joel and Victoria falls short. That means Marysecretary falls short. It ESPECIALLY means Artemis Webb falls short since he judges Victoria Osteen to be a self-absorbed charlatan. 
Actually, we are:
1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
When all of the judging quotes are taken together it seems that we are not to judge someone's eternal soul, but we are expected to judge their behavior.
Yes, but we are to go to that person IN PERSON, by two if necessary, but to sit here and criticize and talk about people kinda behind their backs is not what I think God means here. And this verse talks about some in the church who are in sin. You go to them and if they don’t listen, you take another,and if they keep sinning, then they are tossed out of church in order to take time to think about their sin and (hopefully) repent. What we do here is gossip and criticize. Not good.
Weren’t there three witnesses who said Ms. Osteen did NOT do anything but perhaps yell at Ms. Brown?
Aha, I read the report in your post. Ms. Brown and her other black sister crying racist? Good grief. Sounds like she’s got some issues here. Looking for a quick retirement, perhaps? Good grief. Maybe this will shut up some of the naysayers here.
Let's hear from Ms. Brown's STAR WITNESS:
Shedden said Osteen pointed at Brown, but never touched her.
"I would have seen it," Shedden said.
"You can tell the jury that this never happened, can't you?" Osteen's attorney, Rusty Hardin, said.
"Yes."
Shedden was the last witness McKamie called before Hardin began parading other passengers and Continental employees into a courtroom jam-packed with Osteen backers.
It's quite simple really.
If Brown floats, she's a duck.
Does this mean there will not be any public laying on of healing hands?
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