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Those Angry Traditionalists (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Inside Catholic ^ | 8/13/2008 | Mark Shea

Posted on 08/13/2008 9:45:56 AM PDT by Pyro7480

...Like it or not, discourse among a great many Traditionalists is filled with anger and contempt for Catholics who do not share their... interest in traditional forms of piety.

So while I've never seen a Clown Mass, I have encountered lots of angry Trads who have compared the Paul VI rite to a Black Mass, made clear that "Novus Ordo types" are second class Catholics... and generally made their claims to be the Guardians of True Catholicism so repellent that I wouldn't touch the Faith with a barge pole if they were the True Apostles of it they claim to be. And that experience is not just mine....

In much the same way that I think Muslims need to stop whining about how people perceive Islam and focus instead on why so many people have such similar perceptions, so too I think not a few Traditionalist Catholics should focus more energy on changing whatever it is in their sub-sector of the Church that leaves so many of us with such a bad taste in our mouths.

When the outsider's principal experience of Traditionalism is of repeated and frequent encounters with mean people who are perpetually angry... he is not going to feel any obligation or interest whatsoever in "understanding the things we care about." Telling outsiders to Traditionalism that they need to overlook their experience and stop talking about what they have actually seen and heard will be about as successful as Muslim attempts to force people to not notice the less-than-lovely face that the Religion of Peace shows the world.

Is clinging to anger more important to Traditionalists than actually winning hearts and minds to their cause? If so, then their agenda is doomed and they have paradoxically abandoned the worship of God in the name of liturgical purity.

(Excerpt) Read more at insidecatholic.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; latinmass; traditionalist
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Read the whole article at the link above. I think Shea paints too broad of a brush with this, despite the fact that there are groups of traditionalists like he describes above. Also, comparing traditionalists to Muslims is just completely out of line.
1 posted on 08/13/2008 9:45:56 AM PDT by Pyro7480
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To: Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; american colleen; Desdemona; StAthanasiustheGreat; ..

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 08/13/2008 9:46:22 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Pyro7480

What would dude do if he met Jeremiah?!


3 posted on 08/13/2008 9:48:29 AM PDT by Rippin
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To: Pyro7480

He did it right. Back when I was on Catholic Answers Forums, people like me (I called myself a historic Catholic) was a traditionalist with a small “t”. We wanted an historic Catholic mass with no innovation.

Those who wanted a TLM only, SSPX, SSPV and the like were Capitalized Traditionalists. Some of them can be, shall we say, “strong”.


4 posted on 08/13/2008 9:50:30 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Pyro7480
"I think not a few Traditionalist Catholics should focus more energy on changing whatever it is in their sub-sector of the Church"

It appears that Shea doesn't understand the Traditionalists and waxes a bit "elitist" in assuming he can teach them his lesson.

5 posted on 08/13/2008 9:52:38 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel
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To: netmilsmom

I don’t think everyone knows/understands that distinction. Also, the key word you used is “some.” Some Latin Mass-devotees can have that tendency.


6 posted on 08/13/2008 9:53:23 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Cletus.D.Yokel
It appears that Shea doesn't understand the Traditionalists and waxes a bit "elitist" in assuming he can teach them his lesson.

Bingo.

7 posted on 08/13/2008 9:53:55 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Rippin
What would dude do if he met Jeremiah?!

Jeremiah probably wouldn't lecture him about how he was a heathen for using a 1962 Missal instead of a 1954 Missal.

8 posted on 08/13/2008 9:55:13 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Pyro7480
I think Shea paints too broad of a brush...


9 posted on 08/13/2008 9:59:56 AM PDT by Petronski (The God of Life will condemn the Chinese government. Laogai means GULAG.)
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To: Pyro7480

I belonged to a Trad chapel for a few years and the most striking thing was not anger, but their fear of ridicule.

Those who started this Chapel endured years of community scorn, but have finally been accepted as simply another way to hear the Mass and receive our Lord.

Admittedly, they place a great deal of emphasis on rubrics and on other aspects of respect for the Eucharist, i.e., dress, deportment, proper participation, silence, that is missing in many cases in Novus Ordo Masses.

Mark Shea is a little too strident in his condemnation. Other than a rather loud, “ssssshhhhh,” from a very old lady, I haven’t noticed any particularly violent attacks on visitors to a Trad Mass. Comparing them to Muslims is shameful.


10 posted on 08/13/2008 10:05:20 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Pyro7480

>>I think not a few Traditionalist Catholics should focus more energy on changing whatever it is in their sub-sector of the Church<<

Obviously, he knows not of what he speaks. I’ve tried that approach of changing from within and it is just like dealing with Liberals in everyday society. Twenty-five years ago I was trying to retain the sanctity of Catholic practices. Everybody from the Cardinal to the bishops to the priests and yes the clowns too laughed at my attempts.

So walk a mile in my shoes, if you can.

Step back, wait for the incoming, throw it back, then ignore.


11 posted on 08/13/2008 10:05:31 AM PDT by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners.)
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To: Petronski

LOL! So you agree?


12 posted on 08/13/2008 10:06:03 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: OpusatFR

This chapel is under the direction of the Diocese and has a dispensation for the Latin Mass.


13 posted on 08/13/2008 10:07:23 AM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Pyro7480

Well, I think he should be more careful about distinguishing the focus of his criticism. I like the distinction drawn above: I’m certainly a traditionalist Catholic, but I’m not some kind of card-carrying Traditionalist, let alone a sedevacantist or that other stuff.


14 posted on 08/13/2008 10:09:28 AM PDT by Petronski (The God of Life will condemn the Chinese government. Laogai means GULAG.)
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To: Pyro7480

>>Some Latin Mass-devotees can have that tendency.<<

That’s true, but I’ve also know some liberal Catholics to be worse! Nothing traditional allowed. Tabernacle off to the side, handholding, laity using the orans, no mention of Mary, no devotionals. AND something is wrong with you if you want ANYTHING traditional. Sheesh


15 posted on 08/13/2008 10:11:00 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Pyro7480
Also, comparing traditionalists to Muslims is just completely out of line.

Agree!

The big problem today is that catholic doesn't mean anything today.

The American catholic Church needs to be brought to heel by Pope Benedict as it is not supposed to be a loose franchise granted by Rome.

As I've stated before, European Roman Catholic Churches allow no communion given in the communicant's hand. There are no lay distributors. There are no lay lectors.

The priest doesn't merely 'preside' he is the representative of Christ. He faces away from the congregation and prays to God, not to the congregants. And further, when the faithful quietly enter the sanctuary one is given the distinct impression that something important happens here. It's not like the Elks.

16 posted on 08/13/2008 10:12:45 AM PDT by IbJensen (Ali Bama isn't going to make it!)
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To: Pyro7480
Here's how it looks from the outside:

My wife is Catholic, my 4 daughters are in CCD (or will be shortly), I'm not.

We ran into a traditionalist at a reception last weekend. She and my wife got to talking, and she invited my wife to mass at her church.

It turns out, she doesn't recognize the bishop of our diocese, she believes all the masses said under his ordinary jurisdiction are invalid, that there is no real pope (or that there may be one who is in hiding, but in any event, it's not B16).

The priest at her church is "independent" but says the mass in latin.

Now, to me, it appears that this theory of the church is not dissimilar to LDS theology - that there has been some sort of occultation of the church which needs restoration by a small remnant.

If this were true, wouldn't it mean that the gates of Hell had in fact prevailed?

Just asking.

17 posted on 08/13/2008 10:15:32 AM PDT by Jim Noble (When He rolls up His sleeves, He ain't just puttin' on the Ritz)
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To: netmilsmom
...and no votive candles. No statues of saints and The Blessed Virgin Mary or our Savior.

How can we thank them for building structures that look like airplane hangars with nothing in them but a concrete picnic table? Where and what are confessionals?

The 'priest' makes certain that what passes for the homily doesn't offend any sinners.

18 posted on 08/13/2008 10:15:53 AM PDT by IbJensen (Ali Bama isn't going to make it!)
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To: Jim Noble

That “traditionalist” sounds like a sedevacantist — someone who thinks the See of Peter, meaning the Papal Office, has been vacant since the Pius XII, possibly even before, and that all subsequent popes have been false popes.


19 posted on 08/13/2008 10:19:14 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Jim Noble
That lady is not a 'traditionalist'.

She's a sedevacantist. They have gone to the edge of the world and fallen off. Another name for them is "Protestant".

Avoid such persons.

20 posted on 08/13/2008 10:21:13 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Pyro7480
Who is Mark Shea, and why is he so mad at traditional Catholics?

I don't believe for a minute that he has met "lots of" these angry people. And Muslims? G'wan! I never heard of even a sedevacantist who wanted to cut anybody's head off.

He's exaggerating for effect, and failing to distinguish between those who (like me) prefer things the old-fashioned way and those who deny the authority of the Church and even the Pope himself.

Like I said up thread, there's another name for folks like that -- Protestants!

21 posted on 08/13/2008 10:24:05 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: IbJensen

In my old parish, our confessionals were turned into storage closets.

I have to give a plug here. My favorite Priest just returned to Nigeria. Now if you wanted to hear fire and brimstone, Father Norbert was your man.

He preached at our 6:30pm mass and offended many a person, stating that living together, contreception and homosexuality were pure evil to a congregation that included many visitors (who never heard this stuff)

One of the first sermons I heard him preach was on standing up for Jesus. After 30 minutes of a rousing homily, he looked at us and said, “Stand up. Stand up for Jesus!” then he lowered his voice and added, “Otherwise you will be saying ‘Allah Akbar.’”

Mouths dropped and from that moment, I loved that man.

If anyone has a few prayers for Fr. Norbert and his family members he is returning to, pass them his way. We need more like him.


22 posted on 08/13/2008 10:28:04 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Jim Noble
Just asking.

The lady you're describing is a sedevacantist schismatic (and that term may or may not describe the chapel she attends, but it's certainly irregular at best).

Their ecclesiology isn't exactly like the LDS. They don't think the True Church disappeared for a time and had to be "restored". They think that they're the True Church, and are in continuity with the Church pre-Vatican II, but that the visible "reigns of power" in Rome have subsequently been usurped by people who aren't real Catholics.

Logically, they ought to go further and elect an anti-Pope (and some have done exactly that), because otherwise they're put in the rather odd situation of believing that the Papacy as an office was divinely instituted. but has now sort of disappeared, or gone on an indefinite hiatus.

23 posted on 08/13/2008 10:33:24 AM PDT by Campion
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To: AnAmericanMother
Who is Mark Shea

Mark is a convert from evangelicalism, a Catholic apologist, and a writer. (Also a friend of mine. :-))

and why is he so mad at traditional Catholics?

There's a certain subset of traditional Catholics, some of whom are de jure inside the Church (and some of whom aren't), who are more "traditional" than charitable. I would read his remarks as applying to them, not to the vast majority of Catholics who would think of themselves as "traditional Catholics" (of which I am one).

24 posted on 08/13/2008 10:36:15 AM PDT by Campion
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To: netmilsmom

I believe this is the kind of priest I would admire!


25 posted on 08/13/2008 10:36:39 AM PDT by IbJensen (Ali Bama isn't going to make it!)
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To: NTHockey

and it is just like dealing with Liberals in everyday society

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is where we trust in God and don’t expect it to be done on our time but His.


26 posted on 08/13/2008 10:38:09 AM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: Campion
He needs to be a lot more careful in his language then.

His exaggerations and his comparison of traditionalists to Muslims are highly offensive.

And I'm just a retread Episcopalian with a liking for Latin, not a die-hard traditionalist in any sense of the word. I attend a quite normal (if also quite orthodox) Ordinary Rite parish in a suburb of Atlanta. We throw in a little Latin from time to time and have very traditional music, but this is no nest of sedevacantists.

So if it offends me it's way too strong and he has missed his target completely.

27 posted on 08/13/2008 10:41:15 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Pyro7480

I have encountered Traditionalists who are angry loons.

I was once invited to a conference given by a traditionalist priest in the home of a friend of mine. I knew several of the people there because we attended the TLM together. It turned out the priest had recently struck up a working relationship (for lack of a better term) with the SSPX. When a couple who had lost their daughter to SSPX (she ceased contact with them because they were NOT SSPX) and I gently tried to explain what we knew about SSPX from personal experience he denounced me - in front of the 30 people assembled there including a number of my friends - as a tool of the Devil. He ranted and raved. To tell you the truth I wasn’t horrified like my friends were for me. I thought the whole thing was actually rather funny. Again, my friends were horrified. The host apologized over and over again. I tried to talk to the priest when we took a break but he just went off on me again. I couldn’t help but laugh.

The host told me a year later that the priest - who is a relatively well known author among traditionalists - had told him to tell me I was right about SSPX. He had learned the truth that, although there are many fine people and priests in SSPX, there is a terrible problem with the SSPX itself.

Yeah, I’m a Traditionalist, and yeah, I know there are some bitter, angry, crazy Traditionalists out there. Look at the wackos who follow “Pius XIII”! Sheesh!


28 posted on 08/13/2008 10:46:53 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: wideawake

Tough to know what Jeremiah would focus on right now. We all think we are Jeremiah I guess. But tack of trying to eliminate all passionate voices as ‘angry’ is another leftist ploy to reduce us all to pablum for the socialist chewing.


29 posted on 08/13/2008 10:47:27 AM PDT by Rippin
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To: AnAmericanMother

You’re #27 is on target!


30 posted on 08/13/2008 10:50:59 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: AnAmericanMother

You’re = your.


31 posted on 08/13/2008 10:56:05 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: vladimir998
Oh, they're out there for sure! I know some of them!

But they are in a distinct minority, and not to be confused with folks who have tried the old ways and "hold fast to that which is good."

This sort of blanket condemnation of anybody who likes to hear the Extraordinary Rite occasionally does no good, and much harm.

32 posted on 08/13/2008 11:38:52 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Pyro7480

My Grammar Policeman must have been asleep - I didn’t even notice the apostrophe til you pointed it out!


33 posted on 08/13/2008 11:39:24 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Pyro7480

There are certainly two kinds of traditionalists. The last year’s Motu Proprio was a good litmus test: some cheered it and asked for more; others reacted angrily. www.traditio.com, for example, printed a photo of the Pope with devil horns in response.

Also, the author did not compare them to Muslims in terms of opposition to Christianity; he said that when enough of one’s own kind project anger, the entire image suffers, and gave the misfortune of the moderate Muslims having an image problem as an example.


34 posted on 08/13/2008 11:50:49 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
It's still inflammatory to make the comparison in the first place.
35 posted on 08/13/2008 11:53:31 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Pyro7480

Yes, it is, but so are devil’s horns photoshopped on Benedict XVI or blasphemous references to the Novus Ordo Mass — not the liturgical abuse, mind you, but the Mass itself. I have seen both.

I think he’d do better recognizing the positive contribution that SSPX made to the traditionalist cause, but for a short polemical article I think he has a point.


36 posted on 08/13/2008 12:18:44 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: AnAmericanMother

I agree. I love the TLM and know it has been a wonderful thing for me.


37 posted on 08/13/2008 1:38:12 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: netmilsmom

“That’s true, but I’ve also know some liberal Catholics to be worse! Nothing traditional allowed. Tabernacle off to the side, handholding, laity using the orans, no mention of Mary, no devotionals. AND something is wrong with you if you want ANYTHING traditional. Sheesh”

That’s what we have here. Mention anything — anything at all — and you get the same reaction you would at for coming out against abortion at a NARAL convention.

And I’m talking about the priests, too. The bishop just reinstated another molester priest in a parish.


38 posted on 08/13/2008 3:25:01 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

I’m so sorry.
If you’re ever around southeast MI, I can take you to my parish. You would love it.


39 posted on 08/13/2008 4:16:47 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Pyro7480

Mark Shea...yawn.


40 posted on 08/13/2008 6:18:21 PM PDT by murphE (I refuse to choose evil, even if it is the lesser of two)
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To: Pyro7480
As with any group of people, you'll have bright points of light and some rotten apples ...

That said.

I recently attended a low Mass in the extraordinary form here in Ohio. Simple but beautiful. Afterwards, my sister and I took a turn out of doors to admire the architecture of the church, and a gentleman approached us, and welcomed us as newcomers.

"It's nice to have a break from the Novus Ordo, isn't it?" was his first remark, after we exchanged pleasantries. And the "stereotypical traditionalist" conversation ensued.

He was a very fine man, I assure you. But it was rather off-putting and put a decidedly negative spin to the experience. We don't go to the extraordinary form because we can't stand the Novus Ordo. We attend it because we find it beautiful.

I think its important to consider carefully what unites us to a group of people. Is it mutual love or disgust? I think its an important thing to keep in mind, whatever movements we're involved in.


41 posted on 08/13/2008 6:48:01 PM PDT by Lilllabettt
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To: murphE
Breaking NEWS, Mark Shea likes this:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
Please keep your elbows off the table.

Instead of this:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

42 posted on 08/13/2008 6:52:58 PM PDT by vox_freedom
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To: vox_freedom
There are a lot of so-called traditionalists -- personally I resent that word since those who support the Extraordinary form are Catholics not hyphenated-Catholics -- who hold resentments because of being deprived of the Latin Mass for the past thirty years. No wonder they are mistrustful and negative about American bishops, and their more liberal supporters, such as Mark Shea, who continue to berate, belittle, and deny them of our Faith's liturgical heritage.

Now we have a Pope Benedict XVI who has given his full endorsement and approval to reinstating our 1962 Latin liturgy throughout the world. Guess what? Many more Catholics are now much more happy!
Deo Gratias!

43 posted on 08/13/2008 7:03:31 PM PDT by vox_freedom
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To: netmilsmom

Be careful what you promise. I may actually be out there in the next year or two.


44 posted on 08/13/2008 7:10:22 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc
And if you change planes in Atlanta, let me know.

Our parish is wonderfully orthodox (the parish newsletter just published a piece about why you shouldn't hold hands during the Our Father - while cautioning people to be charitable to visitors!) and our music is extraordinary.

Our music director has a doctorate in organ performance from Juilliard, and he can play anything. And does. Example: when I heard the postlude at the Papal Mass at St. Patrick's, it sounded like a French 20th c. composer to me but I couldn't place it. I asked our music director, but he hadn't heard the end of the service. So I E-mailed the music director at St. Patrick's (take the bull by the horns! it's surprising how often it works!) and got an almost immediate reply that it was "Tu Es Petrus" by the 20th c. French organ composer Henri Mulet. Passed the word to our music director at Wednesday night choir practice, he of course knew who Mulet was and gave us a capsule biography. And guess what the postlude was on Sunday? Yep, he just knocked it out with 2 days' rehearsal, wasn't even breathing hard . . . . and it's tough - give a listen here.

We sing Gregorian chant, Renaissance and medieval polyphony (with special attention to the English Renaissance composers like Byrd, Tallis, Farrant, etc.), and the good moderns.

I was worried about leaving the Episcopalian music scene -- they may be heretics but their musical taste is impeccable and they take their church music very seriously. But I need not have worried - Our Lady and St. Cecilia looked after us!

45 posted on 08/13/2008 7:26:34 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

Dern, I was just in Atlanta a couple of weeks ago.


46 posted on 08/13/2008 8:05:29 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Pyro7480
Some of we traditionalists are quite stridently opposed to abuses of any Catholic Mass -- most often occurring in the Novus Ordo, to be sure -- but we are not sedevacantist by any means, and clearly acknowledge that the continuing thread of legitimate Catholicism rests with the Pope and the current Church. I would never set foot in a NO myself, but did just remind a neighbor who attends the ordinary rite to send her 2nd grade daughter to religious education this years, although I abhor the manner of First Communion that will be employed. However, it is still Catholic.
47 posted on 08/13/2008 8:22:06 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature, not nurtureĀ™)
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To: vox_freedom
who hold resentments because of being deprived of the Latin Mass for the past thirty years.

...and hold greater resentment for being deprived of the faith.

48 posted on 08/13/2008 8:57:48 PM PDT by murphE (I refuse to choose evil, even if it is the lesser of two)
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To: dsc
You'll be back.

They say whether you're going to Heaven or Hell, you have to change planes in Atlanta.

49 posted on 08/14/2008 5:00:47 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: dsc
By the way, when my husband heard that organ piece, he looked nervously over his should and asked, "Where are the flying monkeys?"

It does have the same basic structure . .. .

50 posted on 08/14/2008 5:03:50 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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