Posted on 08/16/2008 3:30:28 AM PDT by Gamecock
NOTE: While the content of this may seem to be flamebait, I suggest it is critical to read post in a thoughtful manner. Why? This is the type of strawman many skeptics tend to throw out at Christians as present the gospel message.
Now I am sure that to many of you that the answer to this is right at the tip of your tounge, but I offer this thread to those who are just getting their feet wet in the Apologetic endeavor.
What kind of God would allow a Hitler to go to heaven if he believed in Jesus and a Mother Teresa to go to hell if she didn't?
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"You're saying that Hitler and Mother Teresa would both suffer the same fate before God if they didn't believe in Jesus?" The words echoed over the radio airwaves as the host of "Religion on the Line" on ABC's L.A. affiliate station patiently waited for me to answer. I knew the question was coming, but I had no tidy theological retort that would put the ball back into his court. Someone once said that if you word the question right, you can win any debate. The question that evening was a classic case in point. The host might as well have asked, "Do you still beat your wife?" Simply answering "yes" or "no" wouldn't do. At the root of this discussion is the issue of Jesus as the only way to salvation. It is one of the biggest stumbling blocks of Christianity to those who are sincerely interested in leading moral lives and working hard to mitigate the impact of evil in the world. To make Jesus the sole issue of salvation seems to ignore the obvious difference between people of conscience and others who are entirely without scruples. Does that make sense?
Radical Surgery Required Let me give an analogy that may add perspective. All things being equal, it's good to practice healthy living. People who eat their vegetables, get proper rest, exercise sensibly, and don't smoke or drink to excess, generally reap the benefits of longevity and vitality. Those who don't, get sick. But what if all things aren't equal? What if there's a hidden element, a terminal disease quietly sucking life out of the body? Healthy living does nothing to avert the underlying disease. In that case, the undisciplined junk food addict and the diligent athlete suffer the same fate. The silent tumor breaks its silence; the grave claims them both. There's a parallel to this in the spiritual realm. On the one hand, it's good to live righteously. Holy living contributes to spiritual health. Those who continually practice sin eventually suffer its consequences. There's another side to the equation, however, a crucial element too often ignored. Our most valiant attempts at goodness are met with failure because a deep-seated malignancy sucks the life from our efforts. No matter how hard we try, each of us is dying from a spiritual disease no amount of righteous living can heal. The sad truth is this: Ultimately, no person lives completely right. Sure, they're capable of doing good things, sometimes phenomenal things. Even a dying patient can have healthy eating habits. But good works, like good meals, cannot restore vitality to a diseased patient; they can only maintain it. Restoration must come through surgery. At first glance, it seems unfair that God wouldn't consider all the good we've done. Think about it, though. When was the last time you received a letter from the D.A. congratulating you for not holding up a bank or shooting your neighbor? Obedience to the law is expected. A year of good behavior doesn't cancel out a year of lawbreaking, evening up the record. Every person, from the greatest to the least, has broken God's law. That makes them guilty, and guilty people must seek God's surgery: forgiveness. Agreed, some need more forgiveness than others--sometimes much more, just as a disease can ravage one body more violently than another. But every person is fatally stricken, nonetheless.
Ever Heard of the Ten Commandments? Have you read the Ten Commandments recently? Take a quick inventory by asking yourself these questions. Have you ever given allegiance to anything else over God in your life or used anything as an object of worship or veneration? Have you ever used God's name in a vain or vulgar fashion? Have you worshipped God on a regular basis? Have you even once disobeyed or dishonored your parents? Have you murdered anyone, or even had harsh thoughts about someone (see Matthew 5:22)? Have you had sex with someone other than your spouse, or even thought about it (see Matthew 5:28)? Have you taken something that wasn't yours? Have you lied? Have you simply wanted something that wasn't yours? Sound tough? It is. This is God's Law. These are God's requirements. Even in grammar school, 60% is a flunking grade, yet who among us has not violated each of these commandments many times? Reducing the Ten Commandments to only two doesn't help. Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind," and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:37-40). Even the best of us violate these two laws daily. Whenever you're tempted to trust in your own ability to please God, take a good look at the standard, God's Law, then look at your own score card. To use Paul's words, each of us is "shut up under sin" (Gal. 3:22). Our mouths have been closed, and we all have become accountable to God (Romans 3:19). Saved by our own goodness? The Law gives us no hope. Try this calculation. If you sinned only ten times a day from your tenth birthday to your sixtieth--and keep in mind we're not just talking about rape, pillage, and murder, but the full range of human moral failing, including heart attitudes and motives--what would your rap sheet look like? You would have amassed 182,500 infractions of the law. What judge in his right mind would turn you loose with a record like that?
Ghandi vs. Al Capone The worst of us tend to whitewash our own contribution to evil. Al Capone said, "I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them have a good time, and all I get is abuse, the existence of a hunted man." [1] By contrast, Ghandi--a man utterly committed to a life of virtue--was not so optimistic. Towards the end of his life he lamented, "It is an unbroken torture to me that I am still so far from him whom I know governs every breath of my life and whose offspring I am. I know it is because of the evil passions within me that keep me so far from him; yet I can't get away from them." C.S. Lewis captured this contrast with these words: "When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse, he understands his own badness less and less....Good people know about both good and evil: bad people do not know about either." [2]
If Lewis is right, then the One who is most holy sees sin most clearly. The One who is perfectly righteous understands the full tragedy of even the most "trivial" breach of goodness. God's purity is without flaw, so He sees sin as it really is. That's why He is not so inclined to dismiss our moral imperfections with a "boys will be boys" mentality.
Hitler and Mother Teresa Could Adolph Hitler and Mother Teresa suffer the same fate? No and yes. No, because they'd answer for different crimes and, as such, their judgment would be different. Just as there are degrees of sin (see John 19:11), there are degrees of punishment. Jesus said Sodom would fare better than Capernaum in the day of judgment (Matthew 11:24), though each would be condemned. Yes, because each person must ultimately answer for his own sins--Hitler for his, Mother Teresa for hers, you and I for ours. Unless, of course, Jesus is allowed to answer for them. That is the good news: Jesus, though rich, for our sake became poor, that we through His poverty might become rich (2 Cor. 8:9). To stay alive physically, first cure the disease, then keep fit to maintain your health. To experience spiritual well-being, God must do surgery on the root problem, sin. Living righteously afterwards secures our spiritual vitality, but it can never cure our disease. Only Jesus can do that.
[1] Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1936), p. 20.
[2] Clive Staples Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1960), p. 73. Euthyphro's Dilemma |
Ping.
I have heard the above countless times. More times than not I concluded it was a pearls-swine issue, but sometimes it was a misguided skeptic.
We must be prepared to give an answer to all, even if it is pearls-swine 999 times out of 1000!
“right at the tip of your tounge”
FReeper spellcheck alert!
;^)
EXCELLENT:
Ever Heard of the Ten Commandments?
Have you read the Ten Commandments recently? Take a quick inventory by asking yourself these questions.
Have you ever given allegiance to anything else over God in your life or used anything as an object of worship or veneration? Have you ever used God’s name in a vain or vulgar fashion? Have you worshipped God on a regular basis? Have you even once disobeyed or dishonored your parents? Have you murdered anyone, or even had harsh thoughts about someone (see Matthew 5:22)? Have you had sex with someone other than your spouse, or even thought about it (see Matthew 5:28)? Have you taken something that wasn’t yours? Have you lied? Have you simply wanted something that wasn’t yours?
Sound tough? It is. This is God’s Law. These are God’s requirements. Even in grammar school, 60% is a flunking grade, yet who among us has not violated each of these commandments many times?
Reducing the Ten Commandments to only two doesn’t help. Jesus said, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind,” and “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37-40). Even the best of us violate these two laws daily.
Whenever you’re tempted to trust in your own ability to please God, take a good look at the standard, God’s Law, then look at your own score card. To use Paul’s words, each of us is “shut up under sin” (Gal. 3:22). Our mouths have been closed, and we all have become accountable to God (Romans 3:19). Saved by our own goodness? The Law gives us no hope.
The book the Great Divorce by CS Lewis is an interesting look into the afterlife; how it is our own attachment to sinning that condemns us.
Thank you.
This has to be the quintessential slippery slope argument!
ML/NJ
“You’re saying that Hitler and Mother Teresa would both suffer the same fate before God if they didn’t believe in Jesus?”
Satan believes in Jesus. God’s grace gives the saved the ability to find obeying God’s Laws delightful and liberating. Folks who find it a burden will go another way.
I have read hear on FR from some bloggers that Mother Teresa was not a Christian. When I read the headlines here I expected to read it again, but was surprised that no such allegation was in this article. Yet, I wonder about it, and why it was posted.
Of course all people are sinners, It’s in our nature. It is why Mother Teresa for all her holiness and kindness in her life remained so very humble. It is also why she insisted that her Sistrers of Charity devote so many hours in their days to prayer. It does keep one focused on God and Jesus, thus acknowledging our need for Him and our sinful nature.
I hope the author was not somehow in a backhanded way inferring that Mother Teresa had any similar characteristics to Hitler other than being a flaweed human being.
The kind of God who is holy and just (by HIS definition, not man's) and who punishes unrepentant sinners, but who atthe same time is rich beyond measure in grace and mercy to those who repent and believe.
Condemnation is about sin, period, not about which human is better or worse than others in man's own estimation.
It doesn't seem that the author was trying to say anything beyond that. IT seems that he simply picked two drastic extremes - one of the "best of the best" and one of the "worst of the worst" to make his point.
I'll throw something else into theI hope the author was not somehow in a backhanded way inferring that Mother Teresa had any similar characteristics to Hitler other than being a flaweed human being. mix for the discussion: one's repentance ought to be one of perfect contrition. The kind of repentance that God seeks is one where we are sorry for sin because it offends God and harms us by breaking our relationship with Him, not simply because we fear eternal death (even though sin brings us death).
It's a shame I have to leave for the day... it looks like this could shape up to be a good discussion.
True. True.
“Do you still beat your wife?”
Yes, I beat her at checkers and cards all the time.
Amen, thanks for the ping. Good article.
How is this a straw man argument? My understanding is that those who believe in Jesus and are saved go to heaven and everyone else burns in hell. I’m repeating what I’ve been told by baptists and maybe some other protestants. I thought Catholics made some distinction for works, but in the end, fell down on the same side as the Baptists. Is this incorrect?
Good answer, TQC.
“What kind of God would allow a Hitler to go to heaven if he believed in Jesus and send Mother Teresa to hell if she didn’t?”
A God who is both infinitely more moral, just and merciful than the author of this straw man argument seeks to make Him out to be.
And as He reveals Himself most explicitly in Scripture, therein we see that both Hitler and Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (Mother Teresa) were sinners before an infinitely holy and perfectly just almighty God, and utterly unable to merit eternal life with the author of life, nor escape their own respective and just punishment in Hell fire, and thus were in need of mercy. One soul may be drowning 1,000 yards of shore in the waters of sin, and another 10 yards off, but they are both in desperate need of rescue, and that by one mightier than they.
And which mercy God Himself provided on His own expense and credit, who “spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all” (Rm. 8:32), that by contrite penitent faith in in His blood, helpless sinner might be justified by faith (that of a confessional quality: Rm. 10:9, 10), and thus God might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus (Rm. 3:25).
If they obeyed the light they had, they would be attracted to Jesus, and in not, they would be repelled by Him (Jn. 3:19-21), and if they died in their sins they each would receive the due reward of their own deeds (Rv. 20:14), as there are some worthy of the greater damnation (Mt. 23:14; Ja. 3:1). And the more light and grace, so the greater accountability (Lk. 16:48).
As it is, “The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit” (Psa 34:18), and “God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble” (Ja. 4:6). And all who came to Him thusly, in faith, were saved. Thus the antagonists of God should not be concerned with the justice of God toward Hitler or Agnes, but with how they shall escape the damnation of Hell, and so and humble themselves under the might hand of God, that by faith in Christ they may be lifted up.
The pagan throws out extremes of evil making a deathbed conversion as some type of issue. They clearly don’t understand Grace, faith, etc.
The Christians that I’ve met who’ve told me how it works must be pagans!
Catholic doctrine includes Purgatory, where those who do not qualify for Heaven, but who have potential for redemption, go in order to eventually qualify for heaven
No, because they'd answer for different crimes and, as such, their judgment would be different.
Jesus said (paraphrase) if you are guilty of violating the smallest part of the law then you are guilty of violating the whole law. If anyone gets torqued up about this post I'll look it up and post the chapter, verse and exact quote.
Doesn't Yah'shua's death and resurrection as ourDoesn't the doctrine of Purgatory, impugn the sacrifice
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
of our kinsman-redeemer, Yah'shua.
Passover Lamb, cover all of our sins ?
I am reading a book on Mother Teresa of Calcutta right now. I would recommend it to all — it shows her holiness as she encountered and suffered through countless trials of darkness and aridity willingly. I have not read anything that suggests she was less than holy as this article suggests.
“Come Be My Light” is the name of the book.
Read the book I just suggested. Mother Teresa was the foundress of the Missionaries of Charity in India. They chose to live in poverty just as those in the {dark holes) phrase quoted from the book.
They brought the Gospel to them, taught the unchurched, were later able to bring the Holy Eucharist to them, founded orphanages and hospitals.
Really doesn’t sound un-Christian or un-Catholic to me at all. She was very much dedicated to doing the will of Jesus Christ, even if it meant suffering through her years of darkness and aridity and separation from the Lord. Yet, she could see through the results of her Order that Christ was with her. She never lost heart despite all the difficulties.
The place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven. They may be purified of the guilt of their venial sins, as in this life, by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace. This sorrow does not, however, affect the punishment for sins, because in the next world there is no longer any possibility of merit. The souls are certainly purified by atoning for the temporal punishments due to sin by their willing acceptance of suffering imposed by God. The sufferings in purgatory are not the same for all, but proportioned to each person's degree of sinfulness. Moreover, these sufferings can be lessened in duration and intensity through the prayers and good works of the faithful on earth. Nor are the pains incompatible with great peace and joy, since the poor souls deeply love God and are sure they will reach heaven. As members of the Church Suffering, the souls in purgatory can intercede for the persons on earth, who are therefore encouraged to invoke their aid. Purgatory will not continue after the general judgment, but its duration for any particular souls continues until it is free from all guilt and punishment. Immediately on purification the soul is assumed into heaven. (Etym. Latin purgatio, cleansing, purifying.)
Why, does she constantly win???
Other Catholics have said that purgatory if for folks that ARE certainly headed for heaven but haven't paid fully for their sin yet...Seems to be some confusion at your church on this issue...
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORYAnd following that is the Church position on whether faith alone is sufficient for salvation:1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
- As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
- Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
IV. HELL
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
Well Hell don't sound so bad then...And all this time I figured it was a bad place to be...
In fact, Hell sounds better than purgatory...Y'all get burned in purgatory...
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
The concept of purgatory states openly that the substitutionary If you call on the covering of the blood of the Christ,
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
you will be perfectly purified and thus the concept of Purgatory
is not only superfluous but it impugns the Holy Word of Elohim.
death of Yah'shua is inadequate to cover the sins of mankind.
Catholic doctrine is that you need BOTH faith and good works
Without Purgatory, you would have the situation where someone who died while living a very imperfect life (cheating on his wife, being less than honest with his business partners, etc) would gain the same access into heaven as someone who lived an exemplary life
Now you could argue that nobody who truly had faith would habitually sin, and thus habitual sin is evidence of an imperfect faith. This would bring us (by another path) to the conclusion that professing a belief in Jesus Christ, while not backing that up with good works, is inadequate to ensure entrance into heaven
So without the concept of purgatory, you would have a case where either those in the middle (professing faith but remaining sinful) either all go to heaven (if faith is all that's needed), or all go to hell (on a doctrine that leading a sinful life means you do not have real faith)
Catholic doctrine is that you need BOTH faith and good works
Without Purgatory, you would have the situation where someone who died while living a very imperfect life (cheating on his wife, being less than honest with his business partners, etc) would gain the same access into heaven as someone who lived an exemplary life
Now you could argue that nobody who truly had faith would habitually sin, and thus habitual sin is evidence of an imperfect faith. This would bring us (by another path) to the conclusion that professing a belief in Jesus Christ, while not backing that up with good works, is inadequate to ensure entrance into heaven
So without the concept of purgatory, you would have a case where either those in the middle (professing faith but remaining sinful) either all go to heaven (if faith is all that's needed), or all go to hell (on a doctrine that leading a sinful life means you do not have real faith)
31 posted on August 18, 2008 7:55:32 AM MDT by PapaBear3625
All of our sins? Or as you state in Catholic doctrine, Yah'shua only died for some of our sins. Following that line of reasoning, Yah'shua is not the Lamb of G-d. I'm afraid that the Roman church has rejected the Good News of Jesus the Christ. The Roman church has substituted a system of works. What does the Prophet Isaiah say about our righteous deeds? YHvH does not think very highly of any of our righteous deeds. YHvH instead offers us to wear his wedding garments that He has provided. Matthew 22: The Roman church rejects the substutionary dead of Yah'shua Seek the face of YHvH in His Holy Word ! Did Yah'shua die for our sins?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
NAsbU Isaiah 64:6 ..., And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;...
The filthy garments in the Hebrew says "used menstrual garment" NAsbU Isaiah 61:10
What happens to the people who are invited to the wedding feast
I will rejoice greatly in YHvH, My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewel
of the King but refuse to put on the wedding garments provided. 12 and he said to him, 'Friend,
If one thinks that they can offer to G-d
how did you come in here without wedding clothes?'
And the man was speechless.
13 "Then the king said to the servants,
'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness;
in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
anything other than the shed blood of His Son,
they are sadly mistaken.
and instead replaces it with a systems of works.
No. The Church does not say that works substitute for Jesus. Righteous behavior is needed IN ADDITION TO faith in Jesus, in order to minimize time in Purgatory.
You are not allowed to think that professing belief in Jesus, by itself, lets you be as nasty as you want to be, without consequence.
See the Gospel of Luke, chapter 10 verses 25–37:
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: (the parable starts here) "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." New International VersionOne who loves God AND his neighbor avoids sin against either, and thus will live
Wrong. Everyone in purgatory has "qualified" for heaven, and nobody in purgatory ever fails to "qualify" for heaven.
No, it states that -- contrary to Luther -- merely being "covered" is not sufficient to enter into the presence of a holy God. Your sins need to be perfectly and truly cleansed, totally uprooted from every aspect of your being, not just covered. If that process is not complete during your life, it must be completed after death.
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