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Pre trib, mid trib, post trib?
none ^ | none | none

Posted on 08/18/2008 7:48:05 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953

Where do you stand on this pre trib, mid trib or post trib and why.


TOPICS: Apologetics
KEYWORDS: endtimes; idealism; notrib; preterism; prophecy; tribulation; tribulations
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Lets open this up to everyone and tell what we think of the tribulation
1 posted on 08/18/2008 7:48:06 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953
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To: guitarplayer1953

pre trib. Why? Thessolonians 4 verses 15 through 17.


2 posted on 08/18/2008 7:52:24 PM PDT by Grunthor (Dems want to destroy America, Republicans just want to be Dems.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Pro-millenial


3 posted on 08/18/2008 7:52:25 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: guitarplayer1953

I can think of about 1000 better things to discuss, beginning with a debate about toe jam. All this and similar topics does is cause dissention in the Body of Christ — and it doesn’t even matter.


4 posted on 08/18/2008 7:53:44 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: guitarplayer1953

It’s above my pay-grade!!!!!


5 posted on 08/18/2008 7:53:53 PM PDT by fkabuckeyesrule (I support the death penalty for people who go to baseball games and talk on their cell phones.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
From my studies it is in my opinion going to be post trib pre-wrath and that the tribulation time is only 3.5 years long which is the last half week of Daniels 70 week prophecy.
6 posted on 08/18/2008 7:54:18 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: r9etb

Toe jam, yes, I do have strong opinions about toe jam. Good discussion topic.


7 posted on 08/18/2008 7:54:27 PM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: guitarplayer1953
I humbly offer "you must endure to the end to be saved". Not to argue, but just to consider.

Also, Matthew's account of the "one shall be taken and one shall be left" and the disciples asking, "Where, Lord?" and the answer was "where the dead bodies are, there shall the eagles be gathered." (Don't have my Bible in front of me so that's paraphrased) That doesn't exactly sound like a good thing, to be taken "where the dead bodies are".

So, I'm post trib, I guess you'd say.

8 posted on 08/18/2008 7:55:19 PM PDT by Tuscaloosa Goldfinch (My new favorite quote "You can't organize clutter.")
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To: fkabuckeyesrule

You have just been given a raise, so in your humble opinion state what it is.


9 posted on 08/18/2008 7:59:12 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: guitarplayer1953

I am a Pan-millenialist. I think that it will all pan out in the end.


10 posted on 08/18/2008 7:59:27 PM PDT by Timothy
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To: r9etb
It does not need to cause dissension if we discuss it in an adult manner. If you do not wise to contribute then don't.
11 posted on 08/18/2008 8:02:46 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: guitarplayer1953
No biblical scholar here, but from what little I've read, I believe you are correct.

IIRC, there's a tale of two prophets called to heaven after 3.5 weeks.

12 posted on 08/18/2008 8:10:18 PM PDT by HoosierHawk
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To: Timothy

Great why do you think so? Did you read the end of Revelation and find out we win?


13 posted on 08/18/2008 8:10:51 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: bboop; r9etb
Toe jam, yes, I do have strong opinions about toe jam. Good discussion topic.

So are you pro-toe jam or against toe jam? And why?

14 posted on 08/18/2008 8:15:37 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: guitarplayer1953

The Rapture happens when Jesus comes back. It won’t be a secret. It will be on the last day.


15 posted on 08/18/2008 8:16:10 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (Whatever that raving thug false prophet in Florida is called, I want to be called something else.)
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To: HoosierHawk
If you read Revelation this is no time period of 7 years mentioned. A very good book on the subject is
THE SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY
An Exposition of Daniel 9
Kevin J. Conner, 1981
16 posted on 08/18/2008 8:16:22 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Pre-Trib - because the Bible tells me so (Thessalonians)


17 posted on 08/18/2008 8:16:24 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Lee N. Field
You mean no u-turns no secret rapture he only returns once?</> sarcasm
18 posted on 08/18/2008 8:18:52 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: guitarplayer1953

I have heard convincing testimony for each of these theories but I do not kow which is correct - what I do know is you better be ready.


19 posted on 08/18/2008 8:19:07 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
PRE TRIB. Because Jesus says so.

The Rapture is told of in scripture as being a reward to the faithful. How is it a reward to have to go through God's lifting of His Holy Spirit from the earth, and the putrid vlieness that will ensue as Satan 's minions are left to do as they will here with no restraint?

Also, the Rapture is followed by the wedding feast, a great and joyous celebration lasting days in Heaven as Christ is wed to His bride, the church. This is all part of the reward; a great blessing of grace received by the faithful for having had faith even before having witnessed the evidence of scripture's inerrant accuracy as displayed by the Rapture itself... hundreds of millions of people simply disappearing from the planet in an isntant.

It makes no sense for the Rapture to be foretold as an event which saves the church from the trials to come, and still have the church left here on earth as the Antichrist and Satan's demons take over.

If one believes in the unblinking, infallible Truth of God's Holy Word in the bible (there are many "Christians" who do not so believe), and more specifically, if one believes in Jesus' promises to the faithful as told in Revelation, then logic insists that the Rapture happens pre-Trib.

Though the millions saved out of the Tribulation will be difficult to count, so great will be their number, it will be far harder to be saved by faith after the beginning of the Tribulation. The bible is very clear on this. It fails to pass the smell test to believe that those who accepted Christ as Lord and Savior prior to the Tribulation would be left to suffer that, especially given that Jesus himself distinguishes (again in Revelation) between those who had faith before the Trib, and those "saved out of the Tribulation."

IMHO

;-/

20 posted on 08/18/2008 8:19:39 PM PDT by Gargantua (...forget the sunscreen, bring your barbecue sauce... ;-/)
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To: fkabuckeyesrule
ok...how about the Chicago Trib...


21 posted on 08/18/2008 8:24:30 PM PDT by xp38
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To: guitarplayer1953

Clearly the church will not escape the tribulation and the faithful will have to endure till the end when Jesus returns and catches His people up into the air on His way down to bring His judgment and peace.


22 posted on 08/18/2008 8:24:36 PM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
You mean no u-turns no secret rapture he only returns once? sarcasm

No secret rapture. No "cosmic dog whistle" that only Christians hear. The voice of an archangel.

When does Jesus say he will raise us up?

--"lee n. field", not a dispensational premillenialist.

23 posted on 08/18/2008 8:29:48 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (Whatever that raving thug false prophet in Florida is called, I want to be called something else.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
I have listen to different views from different theologian's that I respect and came to the conclusion that I hope and pray for a pretrib but be prepared for a post. I like what Zola said.(paraphrase) The Church is Jesus’s bride and when He comes for His bride, He does not want her to be all bruised and beaten up. So pretrib works for me.
24 posted on 08/18/2008 8:29:56 PM PDT by make no mistake
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To: Tuscaloosa Goldfinch
So, I'm post trib, I guess you'd say.

The idea of a pre-trib rapture (which is all that pre-tribulationism is about anyway) is an example of a papier mache doctrine--bits and pieces of scripture, with no regard for content or context, pasted together and plastered over a biblically invisible concept make a shape appear that is then attributed to the bits and pieces. "See, it is so scriptural! There's a scripture there and there and there!" But that one's talking about people being carried away in death, not to be with the Lord. "Huh? Well, the birds are probably eagles and eagles are noble and they're in the sky where Jesus is coming from, so this verse really is talking about the rapture!"

There is not a single verse that is claimed as teaching a pre-trib rapture that unambiguously does so. Such an interpretation invariably depends upon questions already thoroughly begged.
25 posted on 08/18/2008 8:29:58 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Gargantua

One question are those people who are saved during the tribulation part of the bride of Christ and His body? If not why?


26 posted on 08/18/2008 8:31:26 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Pre-trib because this is what the Bible teaches. More important though is are you saved by grace through faith in the risen Christ?

None of this matters if you are not “in Christ”.

Tom


27 posted on 08/18/2008 8:32:21 PM PDT by fatboy
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To: guitarplayer1953

Pre-trib, pre-millenial.

Several good books on the topic to walk through it, other than Scripture itself.

Footsteps of the Messiah, by Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, a Messianic Jew who addresses eschatology from a Jewish perspective. Very well studied.

Dwight Pentecost’s “Things to Come”.

IMHO, once one identifies the tribes and their geographical locations in Ezekiel 28, and 29, then look at present day geopolitics, it sure looks like we are in preparatory phases of placing all the players into position for the Gog-Magog invasion of northern Israel.

The North and South American continents and their nations are probably associated with Tarshish and the young lions thereof.

IMHO, we might be taken out of the picture as a gesture of God’s grace telegraphed to the rest of humanity of what happens to nations with believers who fall away from Him and fail to return to Him. I suspect we shall undergo massive earthquakes and civil war in the west just prior to the Gog-Magog invasion.

It’s interesting to note that the tribes mentioned in the Gog-Magog invasion into Israel are not Arabic. Those who protest, simply seek to confirm Gog’s intent to plunder gold and silver and the riches of Israel. Almost reads as modern day statesmanship from the western democracies.

After the Magog defeat, there is 7 years of cleaning up the battlefields, burning the weapons as fuel, and 7 months of burying the dead.

The Great Tribulation, lasting 7 years is a period of turmoil for Israel, but she is saved and regathered in faith. Her initial gathering, perhaps since 1948 has been a regathering in unbelief.

I can further understand Prophecy clearly to describe the abomination of desolation. Those words have very real meaning and should be intuitive to every believer through faith in Christ, though I suspect too many shall simply associate it with a physical building in the Temple Mount, and too easily allow the mark of the beast to be implemented without fully grasping its significance.

A remnant shall persevere, though, regardless the adversity and trevail encountered.


28 posted on 08/18/2008 8:33:44 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Grizzled Bear; bboop; r9etb
Slip on a pair of these, post modern, pre-trib, Aussie version Jerusalem cruisers, and viola, future toe-jam problems -- all avoided!

[disclaimer]
users may experience noticeable increase
in toe-stubbing incidents. use at own risk

29 posted on 08/18/2008 8:37:24 PM PDT by 7MMmag (lighten up! we wuz just funnin' when we brought that horse in here...)
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To: bboop

Pre Belly Button Fuzz, Post Toe Jam. That’s when I mine Ear Wax.


30 posted on 08/18/2008 8:37:58 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Bernanke is a Monetary Slut!)
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To: free_life

The Church might not escape worldly wrath, but the great Tribulation serves a different purpose.

The very definition of the Church is why the Church shall not remain throughout the Great Tribulation, but believers will exist in the Great Tribulation.

It sure helps to begin with basic Bible doctrines then advance to deeper doctrines when studying Prophecy, but it is also knowable through faith in Christ by the work of God, the Holy Spirit.


31 posted on 08/18/2008 8:38:37 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Those saved with a regenerated human spirit during the Great Tribulation shall have eternal life, but that doesn’t mean God the Holy Spirit indwells them at that point of human history. The Church is His body and bride which has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When the Restrainer is removed, a different dispensation is administered.


32 posted on 08/18/2008 8:42:01 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr; guitarplayer1953
Those saved with a regenerated human spirit during the Great Tribulation shall have eternal life, but that doesn’t mean God the Holy Spirit indwells them at that point of human history. The Church is His body and bride which has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. When the Restrainer is removed, a different dispensation is administered.

This is all ad hoc handwaving and a perfect example of bits and pieces eschatology.
33 posted on 08/18/2008 8:46:59 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: free_life
Clearly the church will not escape the tribulation and the faithful will have to endure till the end when Jesus returns and catches His people up into the air on His way down to bring His judgment and peace.

What leads you to believe that the Church must suffer the wrath of God which has been reserved for those who do evil in the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation? Are we to suffer His wrath for doing good?

34 posted on 08/18/2008 8:49:27 PM PDT by uptoolate (I will be voting for a real conservative)
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To: guitarplayer1953
In Revelation 19 we are told of the wedding feast of the Lamb, where the celebration takes place as Christ is wed to His bride, the church (in current-day speak, "the faithful").

Revelation 19:4-10
4The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: "Amen, Hallelujah!"

5Then a voice came from the throne, saying: "Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both small and great!"

6Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 8Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

9Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."

10At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." In Revelation 20 we read this:

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

These referred to in bold above are saved, and saved out of the tribulation. BUT, at the time of the Wedding Feast of the Lamb in heaven, they are still dead and have yet to be "wakened."

Pretty clear to me. You?

;-/

35 posted on 08/18/2008 8:50:36 PM PDT by Gargantua (...forget the sunscreen, bring your barbecue sauce... ;-/)
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To: make no mistake

The latest the Rapture can come is the signing of the covenant between the AntiChrist and Israel, and the signing of that Covenant begins the Great Tribulation, but the Rapture doesn’t have to occur at that time, for the Great Tribulation is not begun by the Rapture, but by the signing of that covenant.

Note Rev 3:10.


36 posted on 08/18/2008 8:54:18 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: aruanan
How is it that one can be saved yet not sealed by the Holy Spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit the seal of the promise of our hope? Is this is not true then God is a lier.

Which verse are you referring to on the Restrainer?

37 posted on 08/18/2008 8:54:24 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Pre-wrath.


38 posted on 08/18/2008 8:56:24 PM PDT by Shelayne (After seeing Obama without teleprompter, I think the tingle on Chris Matthews' leg is probably pee.)
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To: uptoolate

Note that when Christ meets the Church in the air, His destination is not downwards, but upwards to take the Church up. The downward approach also occurs, the wrathful, Day of the Lord, but for a different objective, in bringing in the Millennial Kingdom.

No earth dweller shall escape the the cataclysms of the Great Tribulation, but those who prevail shall escape to stand before the Son of man. (See Luke 21:34-37)


39 posted on 08/18/2008 9:00:31 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
2 Thessalonians 2 NIV
The Man of Lawlessness
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
40 posted on 08/18/2008 9:00:42 PM PDT by uptoolate (I will be voting for a real conservative)
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To: guitarplayer1953; Pelham

None of the above.


41 posted on 08/18/2008 9:03:47 PM PDT by Das Outsider ("Be content to remember that those who can make omelettes properly can do nothing else. "--Belloc)
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To: Gargantua

Well stated brother.


42 posted on 08/18/2008 9:04:19 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Das Outsider
Then what is your stance? Preterits?
43 posted on 08/18/2008 9:07:50 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: uptoolate

Good post. I’ve found the word studies on the explicit nouns and verbs in Prophecy place me in a position while in faith though Christ to better glean the faith God the Holy Spirit provides to glorify God the Son.


44 posted on 08/18/2008 9:09:15 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Pre trib, mid trib, post trib?

Pan Trib.

As in "It will all pan out the way God intends it to. So, I will just trust in Him however it turns out."

45 posted on 08/18/2008 9:09:23 PM PDT by Petruchio (Democrats are like Slinkies... Not good for anything, but it's fun pushing them down the stairs.)
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To: fatboy

Somewhat concur. although all of human history is His Story.


46 posted on 08/18/2008 9:10:07 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Grunthor
Pre trib. Revelation 3:10 and Luke 21:36 do it for me, but you've probably opened a can of worms.
47 posted on 08/18/2008 9:12:35 PM PDT by Luke21
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To: uptoolate
It appears that the lawless one will abe revealed or come on the scene when Christ returns or should I say at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Says that he will be destroyed by the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
So how do you get a pretrib out of this?

"but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."
Who is taken out the lawless one?

48 posted on 08/18/2008 9:16:36 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Then what is your stance? Preterits?

No, not fully preterist. Amillenialist would be a better description.
49 posted on 08/18/2008 9:17:04 PM PDT by Das Outsider ("Be content to remember that those who can make omelettes properly can do nothing else. "--Belloc)
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To: Das Outsider
Has the church been around more than 1000? If the time in Revelations 20 is symbolic about the 1000 years what else in the bible is symbolic when it come to time, and how do we know the difference?
50 posted on 08/18/2008 9:22:01 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; ....)
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