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Toledo woman uses 'gift' of channeling [Saint Padre Pio speaks through 63-year-old former nun]
The Toledo Blade ^ | July 12, 2008 | DAVID YONKE

Posted on 08/21/2008 8:12:08 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

Dottie Zimmerman is a 63-year-old mother of three, an award-winning religion teacher at a Toledo Catholic school, a former Ursuline nun, and a director of the Children's Theatre Workshop.

For the last five years, Mrs. Zimmerman also says she has been "channeling" Padre Pio, letting the dead Italian Catholic saint mystically speak through her.

It is a "gift," she said, and although she never asked for it she believes she must use it to help others, especially children.

Last month, Mrs. Zimmerman channeled the saint during a meeting of the Toledo Lightworkers Co-op, a group of people who explore alternative spirituality.

It was the fifth or sixth time she has publicly channeled Padre Pio, a Capuchin friar from Pietrelcina, Italy, who was known for bearing stigmata, or the wounds of Christ, on his hands and feet. He died in 1968 at age 81 and was canonized by Pope John Paul II in 2002.

Mrs. Zimmerman said in a recent interview that although she doesn't channel Padre Pio publicly very often, she hears from him almost daily.

"He'll make these pithy little comments. He has a wonderful sense of humor," she said. "One of the things that he insists is that we breathe deeply and we laugh - love, laugh, and breathe are his three words."

An eighth-grade religion teacher at St. Patrick of Heatherdowns School for nearly 30 years, Mrs. Zimmerman said she felt as though spiritual conversations had been percolating within her for years before she began to explore her gift...

(Excerpt) Read more at toledoblade.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: padrepio; twilightzone

1 posted on 08/21/2008 8:13:03 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

sorry that is creepy.


2 posted on 08/21/2008 8:14:11 AM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: Alex Murphy

One word: Counterfeit


3 posted on 08/21/2008 8:15:36 AM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: television is just wrong
I'd yank any kids of mine out of her class so fast her head would spin 180 degrees.

Leni

4 posted on 08/21/2008 8:16:05 AM PDT by MinuteGal (Stay Home in Nov & Vote for Obama-ization, More Regulation, Taxation, Litigation and Ginsburgization)
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To: MinuteGal

she really has no idea what spirit if any she is allowing into her being. it is just creepy.

a lot of catholics believe in posession. the whole thing is just out there.


5 posted on 08/21/2008 8:17:49 AM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: Alex Murphy

Faker.


6 posted on 08/21/2008 8:18:22 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: wideawake

Channeling is of the devil, period.


7 posted on 08/21/2008 8:19:07 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: Alex Murphy

It is creepy on several levels, and I am a practicing Roman Catholic. I think it is interesting this woman is a “ex-nun” who married and had children, and she was urged to begin “channeling” by her brother, a “former priest.”


8 posted on 08/21/2008 8:20:38 AM PDT by 3AngelaD (They screwed up their own countries so bad they had to leave, and now they're here screwing up ours)
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To: Alex Murphy

Show me a channeler, medium, professional psychic, etc and I’ll show you a liar and a fraud.

A hand full of them are just delusional. The vast majority of them are con artist. NONE of them are legitimate.


9 posted on 08/21/2008 8:20:47 AM PDT by Artemis Webb ("The church is near, but the road is icy. The bar is far away, but I will walk carefully.")
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To: Alex Murphy

Ummmm, guys? It’s called “necromancy”, and it’s rather harshly dealt with in Deuteronomy, I believe. This woman needs an exorcism, not a cheery little puff piece.


10 posted on 08/21/2008 8:21:27 AM PDT by 50sDad (OBAMA: In your heart you know he's Wright.)
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To: MinuteGal

her head can prolly spin 360 degrees.


11 posted on 08/21/2008 8:21:30 AM PDT by palomonte
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To: Alex Murphy
She is doing exactly what the bible says not to do:

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

For those not familiar with the term "familiar spirit" it's exactly what she's doing. She's not channeling the dead. Nobody channels the dead. She is communicating with a demon who is pretending to be the dead person. A spirit that seems familiar. That's why God prohibits the practice in the strongest term.

12 posted on 08/21/2008 8:22:18 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Scythian
Indeed.

So, we have a morbidly obese ex-nun who is encouraged by her brother - who is a psychologist and an ex-Jesuit - to engage in this behavior.

The scammitude just drips from this little circus freakshow.

13 posted on 08/21/2008 8:23:55 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Alex Murphy

Maybe she could conjure up King Saul and ask him how things turned out with the Witch of Endor and that time he conjured up the spirit of the Prophet Samuel?


14 posted on 08/21/2008 8:25:21 AM PDT by mkjessup ("People are going to begin to wonder if Russia can be trusted!" - SecState Maddy Rice, well DUH!!!!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Once again, mysticism and the occult raise their heads in the “church.” My sense is that she is not channeling Padre Pio...but someone else...if the Scriptures are to be believed!


15 posted on 08/21/2008 8:29:17 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Scythian
Further "data" from the article:

"Mrs. Zimmerman said she channels other spirits besides Padre Pio. Every Saturday, for example, she channels her mother, who died two years ago, by typing out a letter to her surviving father, which she has collected in a looseleaf binder. "He really looks forward to it because he misses her so dreadfully," she said. She also channels her late husband, John, who "crossed over" 16 years ago."

But wait - there's more:

"Regarding the Sept. 11, 2001, tragedy, Mrs. Zimmerman said while channeling that everyone who 'transitioned' that day went immediately 'home,' or into heaven, 'including those who perpetrated this particular incident. They didn't have their 21 virgins in their party but they were celebrated for three days in partying and love and acceptance because they did what they thought they were supposed to do.' "

This woman may not be a scam artist per se - she may just need to be hospitalized.

16 posted on 08/21/2008 8:29:24 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Artemis Webb

Believing in a deity is not anymore rational than believing in channeling. One could say, using some people’s logic on this thread, that Priests, nuns, etc are all con artists. I would not agree with them, but it is funny what people decide to believe or accept and what they see as absolutely nuts. Just my observation:)


17 posted on 08/21/2008 8:31:23 AM PDT by GeoPie
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To: Alex Murphy
"a director of the Children's Theatre Workshop"

An actress. 'nuff said.

18 posted on 08/21/2008 8:33:17 AM PDT by I'm ALL Right!
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To: Alex Murphy
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
    2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

    2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.


19 posted on 08/21/2008 8:34:19 AM PDT by Titanites
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To: wideawake
They didn't have their 21 virgins in their party but they were celebrated for three days in partying and love and acceptance......

Regarding the 21 virgin thing....I always have wondered, is that a one time thing or do the women have perpetually regenerating hymens? You know eternity is a long time and only 21 virgins doesn't seem like much to me.

20 posted on 08/21/2008 8:35:34 AM PDT by AxelPaulsenJr (Republicans and Conservatives staying home will give us President Hussein Obama.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Totally contrary to Catholic teaching. It is a serious sin to attempt to contact the dead on your own initiative. That is why seances, among other things, are always wrong. If, in His infinite wisdom, and through His own initiative, God chooses to send an angel or saint to appear before one of us with a message, that it one thing. But to seek this out on our own is wrong; it tempts God just as Satan tried to tempt Our Lord after He fasted for 40 days.

Consider that this "former" Ursuline nun has, like many of her now-blue haired compatriots, long since abandoned the core of the Catholic Faith for the New Age Movement. She may have some vague patina left, but it is meaningless. Just as her current activity is totally meaningless for any faithful Catholic.

21 posted on 08/21/2008 8:39:23 AM PDT by magisterium
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To: Alex Murphy
alternative spirituality

"Heresy" is a lot shorter and easier to pronounce. :-0

22 posted on 08/21/2008 8:42:18 AM PDT by Campion
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To: Alex Murphy
As she is able to “channel” Padre Pio as well as the Arch-Angel Gabriel. There should be no issue in conducting these interviews in impeccable Latin or Italian or just about any other language that the ex- nun has not studied. Right??
23 posted on 08/21/2008 8:45:06 AM PDT by hkp7m8
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To: GeoPie

You are of course welcome to your obfuscations.


24 posted on 08/21/2008 8:45:15 AM PDT by Artemis Webb ("The church is near, but the road is icy. The bar is far away, but I will walk carefully.")
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To: SumProVita

As long as gullibility comes in endless supply there will be: counterfeits.


25 posted on 08/21/2008 8:45:32 AM PDT by the anti-liberal
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Alex Murphy

BUZZZZZ. Sorry wrong answer, “accepted Catholic practice” is not correct. I’m thinking there is a dang good reason for the word former in front of Ursuline Nun.


27 posted on 08/21/2008 8:48:53 AM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: wequalswinner

nice mouth


29 posted on 08/21/2008 8:49:51 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa (The goo on John Kerry's flip-flops)
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To: the anti-liberal

“As long as gullibility comes in endless supply there will be: counterfeits.”

Very true and, in the spiritual realm, even those who do not SEEM so gullible can be if they do not seek the gift of discernment from God.

The article of this thread was a dead giveaway though. ;-)


30 posted on 08/21/2008 8:51:10 AM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: wequalswinner

Do not use potty language - or references to potty language - on the Religion Forum.


31 posted on 08/21/2008 8:51:35 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

I’m sorry


32 posted on 08/21/2008 9:06:58 AM PDT by SaintDismas
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To: Alex Murphy
This activity is satanic. God does not "channel" His Saints through anyone. There's no need for God to work this way.

What is sad is that this woman is going to lead others who have weak faith away from Christ and the Church with her activity. There is no "alternate" way to be a Catholic. There's the Catholic Church, the Magisterium, the Traditions and that's it. Channeling is not listed under any sub-category.

Where is the Bishop and Archbishop? They are failing to do their jobs if they don't talk to her to give up this foolishness and return to the Catholic Faith. If she refuses, she should be PUBLICLY ex-communicated. She's the one who has publicized her little chicanery and those with weak faith need to know that she does not represent Catholicism.

WHEN will people read their Bibles, the Catechism, and go talk to a Priest before they put their faith in something "outside" the Church?

33 posted on 08/21/2008 9:20:39 AM PDT by HighlyOpinionated (JSMcCain=For Liberty; BHSoetoro-Obama=For Liberalism.)
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To: Alex Murphy

The Bible says we should NOT speak to the dead.


34 posted on 08/21/2008 9:21:51 AM PDT by DallasDeb ((a.k.a. USAFA2006Mom!))
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To: wideawake

What does morbid obesity have to do with anything?


35 posted on 08/21/2008 9:24:26 AM PDT by DallasDeb ((a.k.a. USAFA2006Mom!))
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To: DallasDeb
What does morbid obesity have to do with anything?

The sin of gluttony.

36 posted on 08/21/2008 9:28:31 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: DallasDeb
...."The Bible says we should NOT speak to the dead."....

Hmmmm, Ya mean like Mary, Peter, John, Francis, etc etc? If your Catholic, how can you have it both ways??

37 posted on 08/21/2008 9:33:19 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: chuckles
Hmmmm, Ya mean like Mary, Peter, John, Francis, etc etc? If your Catholic, how can you have it both ways??

(1) Our Lady, St. Peter, St. John, St. Francis and the other saints aren't dead.

(2) There is a difference between asking someone in heaven to pray for you and claiming that someone in heaven is using you as a mouthpiece to communicate with others.

In other words, there is a difference between the Scripturally-approved doctrine of the communion of saints and the Scripturally-condemned practice of necromancy.

38 posted on 08/21/2008 9:52:01 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Alex Murphy

Fay-ake.


39 posted on 08/21/2008 9:53:45 AM PDT by Petronski (The God of Life will condemn the Chinese government. Laogai means GULAG.)
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To: DallasDeb
What does morbid obesity have to do with anything?

Too much Devil's Food?

40 posted on 08/21/2008 9:57:33 AM PDT by Petronski (The God of Life will condemn the Chinese government. Laogai means GULAG.)
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To: wideawake
Which Scripture approves praying to anyone other than Jesus? Read 1 Tim. 2:5. So your saying Pio is dead? I understand being alive in Christ, but they are still dead to the world. The Bible is explicit that you can't reach them. Reference the rich man trying to cross the gulf to tell his family to repent. Once you pass over, you cannot communicate back here. Praying to Mary is blasphemy and if you get an answer, it's a demon, not Mary. Jesus died for the Glory of being our Mediator. To take that honor from Him is blasphemy! There is NO substitute and NO Scripture to back up the practice. In fact there are numerous verses forbidding talking to the dead. Mary is no different than Pio, or uncle Frank. Why would necromancy be illegal in the Scripture, but OK if it's the "right" person?

You are using some sort of "judgment call" to decide this woman is a heretic, but practice the same daily because you "pray" to an "approved" dead person. This is EXACTLY what Scripture forbids. It's all about Jesus, for Jesus, and no one else but Jesus. We all know Moses made it to heaven and Elijah,(Transfiguration), but do Catholics pray to them? Jesus specifically farbade the Apostles from worshiping them.

41 posted on 08/21/2008 10:43:29 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: chuckles
Which Scripture approves praying to anyone other than Jesus?

I never even suggested praying to anyone but Jesus.

Read 1 Tim. 2:5.

I have. Many times. In the original Greek as well.

So your saying Pio is dead?

No, I am saying that he's in heaven.

I understand being alive in Christ, but they are still dead to the world.

I am a Christian, and therefore do not view reality through a worldly paradigm.

The Bible is explicit that you can't reach them.

No one is talking about "reaching."

Reference the rich man trying to cross the gulf to tell his family to repent.

Was the rich man in heaven?

Once you pass over, you cannot communicate back here.

That isn't even the issue under discussion. The issue is whether people in heaven can hear me.

Praying to Mary is blasphemy and if you get an answer, it's a demon, not Mary.

No one prays to Mary. People ask Mary to pray for them.

Jesus died for the Glory of being our Mediator.

Jesus didn't die for glory. He died for love.

To take that honor from Him is blasphemy!

That's certainly a completely unrelated concern from what I am talking about.

There is NO substitute and NO Scripture to back up the practice.

The Scripture clearly shows believers asking other believers to pray for them.

In fact there are numerous verses forbidding talking to the dead.

Again we are not discussing the dead, but people to whom Christ promised life everlasting. I do not imagine that He lied in His promise.

Mary is no different than Pio, or uncle Frank.

Not according to the Scriptures she isn't.

Why would necromancy be illegal in the Scripture, but OK if it's the "right" person?

You don't seem to understand the difference between "necromancy" (conjuring up the spirit of a dead person to give you information) and "intercession" (one Christian asking another Christian to pray for them).

You are using some sort of "judgment call" to decide this woman is a heretic, but practice the same daily because you "pray" to an "approved" dead person.

Of course, I am not in the practice of praying to any mere person, let alone a dead person.

And there is no judgment call involved - this woman claims to have people who are in heaven (and even elsewhere) using her mouth and hands as a medium for speaking to people on earth. What she is talking about, in other words, is deliberate inviation to possession. That is a very clearcut sin.

This is EXACTLY what Scripture forbids.

You aren't very clear on what Scripture forbids since you seem to believe that Scripture forbids Christians asking other Christians to pray for them.

We all know Moses made it to heaven and Elijah,(Transfiguration), but do Catholics pray to them?

Catholics don't pray to anyone but God. You seem to live in an imaginary world where Catholics pray to people.

Jesus specifically farbade the Apostles from worshiping them.

The Apostles never suggested worshipping either Moses or Elijah, and Jesus never had to warn them not to.

Perhaps you could cite for us the specific verse of Scripture in which Jesus forbids the Apostles to worship Elijah or Moses.

42 posted on 08/21/2008 11:13:08 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: wideawake
I've been through this routine 100 times with Catholics and am unable to deprogram all but a few. I just try to put the obvious in front of them and they are blinded with scales. You are told not to have idols, but your houses and cars are full of them. I have witnessed many Catholics bowing and praying TO Mary and that is forbidden by anyone's even basic understanding of Scripture. Catholics keep the mantra that they are asking Mary for a favor when she has none. Jesus is our only Mediator, and you will slyly agree, and then bow to another saint's image.

Ask a Jew about idols. They wouldn't even allow a picture on their money. Look at any Catholic gathering and they carry pictures, statues, cases with relics, almost anything they can to take away from Jesus. I'm waiting for the golden calf to be hoisted up in the next parade.

The Bible has a whole bunch of verses for the "Harlot" church in Revelation and you are asked to "come out of her". She has "whored" herself with the kings of the world and sold out over and over throughout history. Christianity isn't about a denomination. It's about Jesus and faith in His teachings. You've been around enough to know all the arguments and you won't change the way I read Scripture, and I won't change your mind about what you've been taught. I've read your comments before. You are a good person, but are just mislead and only the Holy Spirit can make you see.

What we have here is church worship. If God proved Catholics were wrong, they would still deny God and follow error. The Scriptures talk of not forbidding to marry, not repeating prayers, not praying to anyone but Jesus, not forbidding foods, and on and on, but Catholics keep quoting some 13th century scribes or a some other irrelevant writings to prove their point. That is why Scripture trumps all. The Catholic Church was founded on a mis reading of Scripture and keeps doing it over and over. Remember Satan fooled Eve by misquoting God and Jesus was tempted by Satan mis using Scripture. There is no mention of popes in the Bible, no nuns, no monks, no cardinals, nothing that the Catholics take so much for granted. All of it was for political power over the people. It has nothing to do with Christ and His Church. Why didn't Paul defer to the power allegedly heaped on Peter? In fact Paul had to settle a rift because Peter did not want to preach to the gentiles. Did Luke or John ever defer to Peter? I could make 1000 arguments why Peter wasn't a pope, but you are more afraid of Catholics being wrong that slighting Jesus Christ. If for no other reason, one of the most respected popes of all time John Paul II kissing the Koran should give you pause. If and when the Vatican pronounces we all worship the same God and all have access to salvation through their own means, will you believe then? I believe it will be soon. The whore of Babylon will be one world religion and will deceive many, even some of the elect. In 1 Peter 5:13, where was Peter referring to? I believe you will find he was writing from Rome.

Like I said, I don't expect you to change your mind, but I would hope you would rethink what you have been taught versus what Scripture says. it's so obvious to a non Catholic, but just circular reasoning for the Catholic. It's my job as a believer, to preach the Gospel to all that will listen, but the Holy Spirit is the one that opens your eyes. I have many Catholic friends and the one thing that each one has is some irrational fear that they may be wrong and the Church may not approve of them. It is Christ they should follow not the denomination that their parents told them was the only way to believe. Muslims do the same to their children, and I dare say the FLDS and JW's do the same.

There are many denominations going through upheaval right now. They have error and lies preached from the pulpit and they have now realized their lifelong denomination is fouled with stench. Will they have the strength to follow God or their denomination? If Catholics had the conviction of their alleged faith, we wouldn't have thugs, murderers and crooks elected in Catholic districts. There will most likely be many Catholics vote for Obama this election. Does abortion and homosexuality mean anything? They are just like other denominations. All it will take is a pope that "just wants to get along". Saying you have millions of Catholics means nothing. There are a billion Muslims. Having faith in your denomiantion isn't the same as faith in Jesus Christ. We will be judged by the Word. It's there for anyone to read. Read it correctly and don't be fooled.

43 posted on 08/21/2008 12:55:17 PM PDT by chuckles
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To: chuckles
The Scriptures talk of not forbidding to marry, not repeating prayers, not praying to anyone but Jesus, not forbidding foods

The Catholic Church was founded on a mis reading of Scripture

Talking about "mis reading" scripture, I think you just took the grand prize in that event.

44 posted on 08/21/2008 2:02:38 PM PDT by Campion
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To: chuckles
Ask a Jew about idols.

I have. They have no problem with a statue of Mary, because Catholics say clearly that Mary isn't God. They have a huge problem with any visual representation of Jesus (whether it's a statue or a flat picture), because Catholics say clearly that Jesus is God.

But they have a huge problem with just saying that Jesus is God, so they think you're just as much an idolater as I am. Bummer, huh?

They wouldn't even allow a picture on their money.

Wrong. Again. The Jews didn't want to use Roman money, because it had a picture of Caesar, who was worshipped as a god. However, they have no problem with pictures of people on money. All modern Israeli banknotes have pictures of men (Israeli political figures) on them.

45 posted on 08/21/2008 2:10:39 PM PDT by Campion
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To: chuckles
I've been through this routine 100 times with Catholics and am unable to deprogram all but a few.

In other words, only a few have been gullible enough to be tricked by you.

I just try to put the obvious in front of them and they are blinded with scales.

Of course, because you are all-seeing. It is the Catholics who must be blind.

You are told not to have idols, but your houses and cars are full of them.

Really? Or do you not understand the difference between an idol and an image?

I have witnessed many Catholics bowing and praying TO Mary and that is forbidden by anyone's even basic understanding of Scripture.

I'm going to have to say that you have never seen Our Lady in person, let alone seen anyone praying to her.

Catholics keep the mantra that they are asking Mary for a favor when she has none.

I ask Our Lady to do me the favor of praying for me every day. Why would she, alone among every Christian, be incapable of praying for someone? Any Christian can do another Christian that favor.

Jesus is our only Mediator, and you will slyly agree, and then bow to another saint's image.

I'm not really in the habit of bowing, but if I were to bow, to a Japanese client say, would my bow mean that I was praying to him and considering him to be the Lord of the universe? Or would I just be giving him a sign of respect?

Ask a Jew about idols.

Why would a Jew be more knowledgeable about idols than a Christian? What special insight would I gain?

They wouldn't even allow a picture on their money.

But they would allow cherubim on the Ark. Fascinating.

Look at any Catholic gathering and they carry pictures, statues, cases with relics, almost anything they can to take away from Jesus.

Do you have any pictures of your loved ones? Or do you believe that Scripture forbids you to have any? Are you personally offended by the Lincoln Memorial, or statues of our Founding Fathers? Do you refuse to visit museums on principle? Do you own any objects that belonged to a loved one who has passed? Or is your family practice to destroy any physical trace that this loved one existed?

If you do, unimaginably, have any photographs or mementos are you ashamed by the fact that your family album has usurped the place of Jesus in your life?

I'm waiting for the golden calf to be hoisted up in the next parade.

Again, you don't seem to grasp the distinction between an idol and an image.

The Bible has a whole bunch of verses for the "Harlot" church in Revelation and you are asked to "come out of her".

And I think you should come out of your harlot "church."

She has "whored" herself with the kings of the world and sold out over and over throughout history.

Like when she whored herself to Henry VIII and persuaded him to repudiate his wife? Or when she whored herself to Prince Philip and told him he could have two wives at once as long as he kept one of them secret? Or when she whored herself to Margaret Sanger and agreed to tolerate the murder of the unborn? Yes, this "reformed" "church" has much to answer for, indeed.

Christianity isn't about a denomination.

Indeed it isn't.

It's about Jesus and faith in His teachings.

No, it's about Jesus, period. His teachings would be worthless and faith in Him would be worthless if it were not for Who He is and what He did and continues to do.

You've been around enough to know all the arguments and you won't change the way I read Scripture, and I won't change your mind about what you've been taught. I've read your comments before. You are a good person, but are just mislead and only the Holy Spirit can make you see.

I'm a good person? I thought I was a blasphemer, as described above - how does that figure? Perhaps you should question how you read Scripture - because you are not an omniscient reader.

What we have here is church worship.

Interesting comment. Let's explore further.

If God proved Catholics were wrong, they would still deny God and follow error.

How would He "prove" this? By going back on His own Word and sending new angels to teach us a different doctrine? Namely that the Church is not the very Body of Christ? And that it is not the pillar and ground of truth? By altering His own Scripture?

The scenario you propose is exceedingly bizarre and contradictory.

The Scriptures talk of not forbidding to marry, not repeating prayers, not praying to anyone but Jesus, not forbidding foods, and on and on, but Catholics keep quoting some 13th century scribes or a some other irrelevant writings to prove their point.

There's no need to quote anybody. Catholics do not forbid marriage. I'm married myself - did I miss some secret memo? I was married in a Catholic church to boot - by a Catholic priest, no less. This must be a very obscure doctrine indeed.

The Scriptures forbid repeating prayers - and yet they contain the Psalms? That's slightly self-contradictory, wouldn't you say?

Also, I never got the memo about foods being forbidden, either. Which foods am I supposedly banned from eating?

That is why Scripture trumps all.

A statement that is as vague as it needs to be.

The Catholic Church was founded on a mis reading of Scripture and keeps doing it over and over.

The Catholic Church was founded before the New testament was written, so the misreading you are referring to must be a misreading of the Hebrew Scriptures. Which specific Scriptural passage from the Old Testament is the source of this unfortunate misreading?

Remember Satan fooled Eve by misquoting God

No, he fooled Eve by contradicting what God told her.

and Jesus was tempted by Satan mis using Scripture.

But you are, like Jesus, immune to such temptation - while I am not. So apparently you are telling me that Scripture trumps all, except when it is "misused" by creatures.

There is no mention of popes in the Bible, no nuns, no monks, no cardinals, nothing that the Catholics take so much for granted.

So if a specific English word isn't actually used in the Bible, the concept it expresses is invalid. That's an amazing claim, if followed to its conclusion.

All of it was for political power over the people.

LOL! I was unaware that Karl Marx was a theologian that you put stock in! So those monks and nuns that were murdered by Diocletian were just holding back their enormous political power over the Emperor?

It has nothing to do with Christ and His Church.

The Church does not have the power to appoint its own officers?

Bizarre claim.

Why didn't Paul defer to the power allegedly heaped on Peter? In fact Paul had to settle a rift because Peter did not want to preach to the gentiles. Did Luke or John ever defer to Peter?

Apparently you think the Petrine office is primarily about deference. It isn't. Try again.

I could make 1000 arguments why Peter wasn't a pope, but you are more afraid of Catholics being wrong that slighting Jesus Christ.

Go ahead and make your "1000" arguments (you haven't actually made a single coherent one yet) - I'm certainly completely unafraid of them.

If for no other reason, one of the most respected popes of all time John Paul II kissing the Koran should give you pause.

An oft-repeated and completely unsubstantiated slander. "But we have the pictures!" - the photograph posted over and over again shows the Pope kissing an Arabic lectionary of readings from the New Testament. You can even order one on Amazon.

Or were you uanware that there are Arab Christians who celebrate Mass in Arabic?

If and when the Vatican pronounces we all worship the same God and all have access to salvation through their own means, will you believe then? I believe it will be soon.

Really? Then why was there all the handwringing when the current Pope issued the CDF statement Dominus Iesus declaring the unique status of Christ for the millionth time in Catholic history? What possible evidence do you have that 2000 years of consistent doctrine will change tomorrow?<>Answer: none.

The whore of Babylon will be one world religion and will deceive many, even some of the elect. In 1 Peter 5:13, where was Peter referring to? I believe you will find he was writing from Rome.

The whore of Babylon is not discussed in 1 Peter. Any luck, by the way, with that claimed passage of Scripture in which Christ forbids the Apostles to worship Moses or Elijah?

Like I said, I don't expect you to change your mind, but I would hope you would rethink what you have been taught versus what Scripture says. it's so obvious to a non Catholic, but just circular reasoning for the Catholic.

No, it is circular reasoning to say that Scripture trumps all, but that it doesn't trump all when it isn't read according to your personal prejudices. That's a glaring example of a circular argument.

It's my job as a believer, to preach the Gospel to all that will listen, but the Holy Spirit is the one that opens your eyes. I have many Catholic friends and the one thing that each one has is some irrational fear that they may be wrong and the Church may not approve of them.

"I have many Catholic friends." Please, spare me this line and the dimestore psychology that accompanies it.

It is Christ they should follow not the denomination that their parents told them was the only way to believe. Muslims do the same to their children, and I dare say the FLDS and JW's do the same.

What about the converts to Catholicism who have explicitly not followed their parents' denomination? What about the "Bible Christians" whose parents were also "Bible Christians"? I hope you realize how ridiculous this argument is.

There are many denominations going through upheaval right now. They have error and lies preached from the pulpit and they have now realized their lifelong denomination is fouled with stench. Will they have the strength to follow God or their denomination? If Catholics had the conviction of their alleged faith, we wouldn't have thugs, murderers and crooks elected in Catholic districts. There will most likely be many Catholics vote for Obama this election. Does abortion and homosexuality mean anything? They are just like other denominations.

Translation: there are Catholics who are sinners. Wow.

There are people who profess to be "Bible Christians" who will vote for Obama this fall, and who will have abortions, and engage in homosexual intercourse and who will sell crack, too. That's not much of an argument against "Bible Christianity."

All it will take is a pope that "just wants to get along".

But there hasn't been one in 2,000 years. That's a pretty amazing run of "luck", isn't it?

Saying you have millions of Catholics means nothing. There are a billion Muslims. Having faith in your denomiantion isn't the same as faith in Jesus Christ.

We started with twelve, whether there are twelve of us or a billion of us is immaterial. I do not belong to a "denomination." I belong to the Church. There is only one.

We will be judged by the Word. It's there for anyone to read.

I see. So if you can't read, you can't be saved?

Read it correctly and don't be fooled.

So "reading it correctly" means making up stuff that isn't there - like an imaginary conversation in which Jesus forbids the Apostles to worship Moses and Elijah?

You don't help you position when you invent nonexistent passages of Scripture.

46 posted on 08/21/2008 2:16:14 PM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Alex Murphy
This woman is either a fraud or she is possessed. This type of spiritualism is specifically condemned by the Catholic Church and it is forbidden for Catholics to practice it.

The fact that she is a *former* nun should tell you something.
47 posted on 08/21/2008 2:19:55 PM PDT by Antoninus (The greatest gifts parents give their children are siblings.)
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To: LiteKeeper
Once again, mysticism and the occult raise their heads in the “church.”

Sorry, pal. But there's nothing "in the Church" about what this individual is doing. In fact, she's specifically violating very clear Church teaching.
48 posted on 08/21/2008 2:23:07 PM PDT by Antoninus (The greatest gifts parents give their children are siblings.)
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To: LiteKeeper

This is not mysticism. This woman is practicing New Age fluff and needs to be shut down by her pastor and bishop. It is deception and a false understanding of the higher unseen realms.

Mysticism is the valid path to union with God, aka mystical union. The Orthodox have their own term, theosis if I understand correctly.

Read ‘The Spiritual Life’ by Fr. Adolphe Tanquerey or ‘The Three Ages of the Interior Life’ by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange.


49 posted on 08/21/2008 2:45:08 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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