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To: chuckles
Which Scripture approves praying to anyone other than Jesus?

I never even suggested praying to anyone but Jesus.

Read 1 Tim. 2:5.

I have. Many times. In the original Greek as well.

So your saying Pio is dead?

No, I am saying that he's in heaven.

I understand being alive in Christ, but they are still dead to the world.

I am a Christian, and therefore do not view reality through a worldly paradigm.

The Bible is explicit that you can't reach them.

No one is talking about "reaching."

Reference the rich man trying to cross the gulf to tell his family to repent.

Was the rich man in heaven?

Once you pass over, you cannot communicate back here.

That isn't even the issue under discussion. The issue is whether people in heaven can hear me.

Praying to Mary is blasphemy and if you get an answer, it's a demon, not Mary.

No one prays to Mary. People ask Mary to pray for them.

Jesus died for the Glory of being our Mediator.

Jesus didn't die for glory. He died for love.

To take that honor from Him is blasphemy!

That's certainly a completely unrelated concern from what I am talking about.

There is NO substitute and NO Scripture to back up the practice.

The Scripture clearly shows believers asking other believers to pray for them.

In fact there are numerous verses forbidding talking to the dead.

Again we are not discussing the dead, but people to whom Christ promised life everlasting. I do not imagine that He lied in His promise.

Mary is no different than Pio, or uncle Frank.

Not according to the Scriptures she isn't.

Why would necromancy be illegal in the Scripture, but OK if it's the "right" person?

You don't seem to understand the difference between "necromancy" (conjuring up the spirit of a dead person to give you information) and "intercession" (one Christian asking another Christian to pray for them).

You are using some sort of "judgment call" to decide this woman is a heretic, but practice the same daily because you "pray" to an "approved" dead person.

Of course, I am not in the practice of praying to any mere person, let alone a dead person.

And there is no judgment call involved - this woman claims to have people who are in heaven (and even elsewhere) using her mouth and hands as a medium for speaking to people on earth. What she is talking about, in other words, is deliberate inviation to possession. That is a very clearcut sin.

This is EXACTLY what Scripture forbids.

You aren't very clear on what Scripture forbids since you seem to believe that Scripture forbids Christians asking other Christians to pray for them.

We all know Moses made it to heaven and Elijah,(Transfiguration), but do Catholics pray to them?

Catholics don't pray to anyone but God. You seem to live in an imaginary world where Catholics pray to people.

Jesus specifically farbade the Apostles from worshiping them.

The Apostles never suggested worshipping either Moses or Elijah, and Jesus never had to warn them not to.

Perhaps you could cite for us the specific verse of Scripture in which Jesus forbids the Apostles to worship Elijah or Moses.

42 posted on 08/21/2008 11:13:08 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: wideawake
I've been through this routine 100 times with Catholics and am unable to deprogram all but a few. I just try to put the obvious in front of them and they are blinded with scales. You are told not to have idols, but your houses and cars are full of them. I have witnessed many Catholics bowing and praying TO Mary and that is forbidden by anyone's even basic understanding of Scripture. Catholics keep the mantra that they are asking Mary for a favor when she has none. Jesus is our only Mediator, and you will slyly agree, and then bow to another saint's image.

Ask a Jew about idols. They wouldn't even allow a picture on their money. Look at any Catholic gathering and they carry pictures, statues, cases with relics, almost anything they can to take away from Jesus. I'm waiting for the golden calf to be hoisted up in the next parade.

The Bible has a whole bunch of verses for the "Harlot" church in Revelation and you are asked to "come out of her". She has "whored" herself with the kings of the world and sold out over and over throughout history. Christianity isn't about a denomination. It's about Jesus and faith in His teachings. You've been around enough to know all the arguments and you won't change the way I read Scripture, and I won't change your mind about what you've been taught. I've read your comments before. You are a good person, but are just mislead and only the Holy Spirit can make you see.

What we have here is church worship. If God proved Catholics were wrong, they would still deny God and follow error. The Scriptures talk of not forbidding to marry, not repeating prayers, not praying to anyone but Jesus, not forbidding foods, and on and on, but Catholics keep quoting some 13th century scribes or a some other irrelevant writings to prove their point. That is why Scripture trumps all. The Catholic Church was founded on a mis reading of Scripture and keeps doing it over and over. Remember Satan fooled Eve by misquoting God and Jesus was tempted by Satan mis using Scripture. There is no mention of popes in the Bible, no nuns, no monks, no cardinals, nothing that the Catholics take so much for granted. All of it was for political power over the people. It has nothing to do with Christ and His Church. Why didn't Paul defer to the power allegedly heaped on Peter? In fact Paul had to settle a rift because Peter did not want to preach to the gentiles. Did Luke or John ever defer to Peter? I could make 1000 arguments why Peter wasn't a pope, but you are more afraid of Catholics being wrong that slighting Jesus Christ. If for no other reason, one of the most respected popes of all time John Paul II kissing the Koran should give you pause. If and when the Vatican pronounces we all worship the same God and all have access to salvation through their own means, will you believe then? I believe it will be soon. The whore of Babylon will be one world religion and will deceive many, even some of the elect. In 1 Peter 5:13, where was Peter referring to? I believe you will find he was writing from Rome.

Like I said, I don't expect you to change your mind, but I would hope you would rethink what you have been taught versus what Scripture says. it's so obvious to a non Catholic, but just circular reasoning for the Catholic. It's my job as a believer, to preach the Gospel to all that will listen, but the Holy Spirit is the one that opens your eyes. I have many Catholic friends and the one thing that each one has is some irrational fear that they may be wrong and the Church may not approve of them. It is Christ they should follow not the denomination that their parents told them was the only way to believe. Muslims do the same to their children, and I dare say the FLDS and JW's do the same.

There are many denominations going through upheaval right now. They have error and lies preached from the pulpit and they have now realized their lifelong denomination is fouled with stench. Will they have the strength to follow God or their denomination? If Catholics had the conviction of their alleged faith, we wouldn't have thugs, murderers and crooks elected in Catholic districts. There will most likely be many Catholics vote for Obama this election. Does abortion and homosexuality mean anything? They are just like other denominations. All it will take is a pope that "just wants to get along". Saying you have millions of Catholics means nothing. There are a billion Muslims. Having faith in your denomiantion isn't the same as faith in Jesus Christ. We will be judged by the Word. It's there for anyone to read. Read it correctly and don't be fooled.

43 posted on 08/21/2008 12:55:17 PM PDT by chuckles
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