What about all those churches? When and by whom was your church founded? (Ecumenical)

Catholic Treasure Chest ^ | Bob Stanley

[NYer]

The denial of the One True Church:
"John to the seven Churches that are in Asia..."
Rev 1:4

"Anyone can see from the very beginning of Christianity that there were many denominations, for the Bible is 'very clear' to show us this in that verse, and in many others!"
This is what I have been told by those who refuse to believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church which Jesus Christ founded. It is too bad that non-Catholics cannot understand the fact that all of those Churches were founded by the Apostles who were all infused with the same Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Therefore they all taught the same truth of Jesus Christ. There are no two Protestant churches which teach the same thing. If they all taught the same one truth, then isn't it obvious that instead of the tens of thousands of sects, there would be only one?

Well, let us see what the story of the Bible really says...

---

"You are Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church."
Matt 16:18

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations...."
Matt 28:20

It was prophesied by Caiphas, the high priest, that Jesus would gather all of His Children into ONE:
"This, however, he said not of himself; but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was to die for the nation; and not only for the nation, but that He might gather into ONE the Children of GOD who were scattered abroad."
John 11:51-52
The beginning of the fulfillment of this prophecy is in the book of Acts.

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered Himself up for her, that He might sanctify her, cleansing her in the bath of water by means of The Word; in order that He might present Himself the Church in all her glory, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she might be holy and without blemish."
Eph 5:25-27
Note in these verses that St. Paul referenced "the Church" twice and in the singular. He spoke of one Church only.

"But, you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be witnesses for Me in Jerusalem (local) and in all Judea and Samaria (spreading out) and even to the very ends of the earth (world-wide, Universal, Catholic)."
Acts 1:8

"And there appeared to them parted tongues as of fire, which settled upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in foreign tongues, even as the Holy Spirit prompted them to speak."
Acts 2:3-4

Elucidation:
*Jesus Christ commissioned His Apostles to go into the whole world and preach the Gospel.
*The Holy Spirit infused each and all of the Apostles with the same One Truth of the Word.
*Jesus Christ spoke of One Church only and not of seven as in Rev 1:4.

---

The Catholic Church, the only Church which Jesus Christ founded, was persecuted by both the Jews and the Romans from the very beginning. The Jews wanted to stamp out this new Christianity because Christ called Himself GOD. The Romans wanted to destroy this new Christianity because Christ called Himself a King. The infant Church had to practice in hiding or fade into oblivion. But fade it would not because its founder was GOD Himself who promised the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church. Matt 16:18

---

The very first Church gatherings were not in churches (buildings) at all but in the homes of loyal Christians. These gatherings were done in great secrecy in order to avoid persecution. Any physical church building would have been immediately destroyed by the Jews or the Romans. The faithful had to use code words to communicate, such as Babylon for Rome, and the fish symbol. The word 'fish' is Icthus in Greek, the dominant language of the time. Icthus is the first letters of 'Jesus Christ Son of GOD Savior'. Fish are used as a symbol of the faithful, referring to the miraculous catch (Luke 5:1-7), and that some of the Apostles were fishermen.

---

"And continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread in their houses..."
Acts 2:46

"Greet Prisca and Aquila, my helpers in Christ Jesus, who for my life have risked their own necks. To them not only I give thanks but also the Churches of the Gentiles. Greet also the Church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Ephaenetus, who is the first fruits of Asia to Christ."
Romans 16:3-5.

"The Churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Priscilla with the Church at their house (Corinth) greet you heartily in the Lord."
1Cor 16:19

"Greetings to the brethren who are at Laodicea and to Nymphas and the Church that is in his house."
Col 4:15-16

"And to Appia, the sister, and to Archippus, our fellow soldier, and to the Church that is in thy house:"
Philemon 1:2

Notice in Romans and Corinthians above, that the Church had already spread to Asia.

---

The new Church expanded rapidly. This rapid expansion was due in part to the fact that the Romans had built excellent roads connecting the various cities. The Apostles used these roads to advantage.

"Now they who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls." Acts 2:41

"And the multitude of men and women who believed in the Lord increased still more..."
Acts 5:14

"Now in those days, as the number of the disciples was increasing..."
Acts 6:1

"So the Churches grew stronger and stronger in the faith and increased in numbers daily."
Acts 16:5

"And the Word of the Lord continued to spread, and the number of the disciples increased rapidly in Jerusalem; a large number also of the priests accepted the faith."
Acts 6:7

"Now throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria the Church was in peace and was being built up, walking in fear of the Lord, and it was filled with the consolation of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 9:31

"And news concerning them came to the ears of the Church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas as far as Antioch.
Acts 11:22

"But the Word of the Lord continued to grow and spread."
Acts 12:24

Starting in Acts 13:1, the worldwide, universal, Catholic Church began to expand to eventually include all of humanity...

"Now in the Church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, among whom were Barnabas and Simon, called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manahen the fostering brother of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul."
Acts 13:1

"On arriving at Jerusalem they were welcomed by the Church and the Apostles and Presbyters (priests), and they proclaimed all that GOD had done with them."
Acts 15:4

"Then the Apostles and the Presbyters (priests) with the whole Church decided to select representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.
Acts 15:22

"But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the Church at Cenchrea..." Rom 16:1

"..to the Church of GOD at Corinth."
1Cor 1:2, 2Cor 1:1

"Paul and Sylvanus and Timothy to the Church of the Thessalonians."
1Thess 1:1, 2Thess 1:1

"The Church which is at Babylon (Rome), chosen together with you, greets you, and so does my son Mark."
1Pet 5:13

"To the angel (Bishop) of the Church at Ephesus write..."
Rev 2:1

"And to the angel of the Church at Smyrna write..."
Rev 2:8

"And to the angel of the Church at Pergamum write..."
Rev 2:12

"And to the angel of the Church at Thyratira write..."
Rev 2:18

"And to the angel of the Church at Sardis write..."
Rev 3:1

"And to the angel of the Church at Philadelphia write..."
Rev 3:7

"And to the angel of the Church at Laodicea write..."
Rev 3:14

Cyprus, Acts 13:4
Iconium, Acts 14:1
Lystra, Acts 14:7
Derbe, Acts 14:19-20
Philippi, Acts 16:12
Thessalonica, Acts 17:1-2
Berea, Acts 17:10
Athens, Acts 17:16
Corinth, Acts 18:1-2
Ephesus, Acts 18:19
Tyre, Acts 21:3-6
Malta, Acts 28:1-10
Rome, Acts 28:16-30

Implied...
Pamphylia, Acts 14:23
Perge, Acts 14:24
Attalia, Acts 14:24
Phoenicia, Acts 15:3
Caesarea, Acts 18:22

"For from you the Word of the Lord has been spread Abroad, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in Every Place Your Faith In GOD Has Gone Forth, so that we need say nothing further." 1Thess 1:8

"Amen I say to you, wherever in the Whole World this Gospel is preached, this also that she has done shall be told in memory of her."
Matt 26:13

"But I say; Have they not heard? Yes, indeed, Their voice has gone forth into All the Earth, and their words Unto the ends of the World."
Rom 10:18

"And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the Whole World, for a witness to All Nations; and then will come the end."
Matt 24:14

"Go, therefore and make disciples of All Nations..."
Matt 28:19

And He said to them, "Go into the Whole World and preach the Gospel to every creature."
Mark 16:15

"But they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the preaching by the signs that followed."
Mark 16:20

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All Apostles, all having the same One Truth of the Holy Spirit, with all going out into the whole world to convert Jew and Gentile alike into One Church.

[NYer]

All Apostles, all having the same One Truth of the Holy Spirit, with all going out into the whole world to convert Jew and Gentile alike into One Church.

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his of her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole.

[NYer]

The very first Church gatherings were not in churches (buildings) at all but in the homes of loyal Christians. These gatherings were done in great secrecy in order to avoid persecution.

And this is still true today in those parts of the world where Catholics continue to be persecuted for their faith - China and the Middle East, to name only a few.

[driftdiver]

Sorry, not buying it. The Church isn’t a building. Its the body of people that worship and accept Jesus as their savior.

If you accept Jesus then you are in the Church. The denomination is a label applied by people.

[driftdiver]

“And this is still true today in those parts of the world where Catholics continue to be persecuted for their faith”

Are they being persecuted for being Christian or for being Catholic?

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Sorry, not buying it. The Church isn’t a building.”

Who said it was? Seriously, who ever said THE CHURCH was a building?

“Its the body of people that worship and accept Jesus as their savior.”

Sorry, but you’ve fallen for that invisible church nonsense invented by 16th century Protestants.

“If you accept Jesus then you are in the Church. The denomination is a label applied by people.”

Jesus founded the Church - not men. I’m not in a denomination.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Are they being persecuted for being Christian or for being Catholic?”

In Muslims countries they’re persecuted for being Christians. In the other places they’re usually persecuted for being specifically Catholic.

[NYer]

If you accept Jesus then you are in the Church.

Is the Church to be a loose conglomerate of believers or is it to be organized and structured?  Scripture clearly established "offices" and a "hierarchy" among Christians.  The offices of "bishop, priest (presbyter) and deacon" are mentioned in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1,8; Titus 1:7 ).  What else is this but "organization?"  Or should we believe that any believer can "claim" to be a bishop, priest, deacon or even "apostle?"  The word "office" is specifically used in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1) to describe these positions.  Webster defines "office" as "A special duty, trust, charge, or position, conferred by authority or God and for a public purpose; a position of trust or authority."  And the office of "apostle" is to be continued (Acts 1:20-26) to the present day.  Not all believers are "equal" nor have the same gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10; Ephesians 4:11).   Is the Church a "visible, earthly" entity?  Yes, for Christ would not direct us to the Church for disputes if it were not here on Earth (Matthew 18:17).   Nor would "fear" encompass the whole Church if it were a mystical, invisible and heavenly entity (Acts 5:11).  The Church is definitely here on earth for the actions described in Acts definitely take place on earth and the term used is "the whole Church" (Acts 15:22). cf

[NYer]

Are they being persecuted for being Christian or for being Catholic?

In the majority of these countries, Catholicism is still the only christian faith practiced. In China, they are being persecuted for not succumbing to the "official" (government organized) Catholic Church.

[sasportas]

The church we see in the book of Acts and in the epistles, the original first century church, was not the RCC. The RCC represents apostate Christianity, not original Christianity.

[NYer]

The church we see in the book of Acts and in the epistles, the original first century church, was not the RCC. The RCC represents apostate Christianity, not original Christianity.

Really? So you are calling Jesus a liar? Matt 16:18

[vladimir998]

Since Protestantism came 1500 years after Christ IT must be apostate Christianity. Christ established a Church. If your came 1500 or 1900 years later, then you know it isn’t legitimate.

[driftdiver]

This is nonsense. Muslims are out to kill every non-muslim in the world and you folks are trying to stir up problems within Christianity.

Catholics have been persecuted in history. Catholics have also been the persecutors of others.

What places are targeting Catholics for being catholic?

[driftdiver]

“Who said it was? Seriously, who ever said THE CHURCH was a building?”

You said it was the Catholic church. The church isn’t a label.

“Sorry, but you’ve fallen for that invisible church nonsense invented by 16th century Protestants.”

No, I’m quite visible as are those I worship with. We worship in a building thats also visible.

“Jesus founded the Church - not men. I’m not in a denomination.”

Men apply their labels in an effort to make themselves believe they are better then others.

[driftdiver]

“The church we see in the book of Acts and in the epistles, the original first century church, was not the RCC”
The hateful way this issue is being raised makes me think it is not of a Godly person.

[driftdiver]

“In China, they are being persecuted for not succumbing to the “official” (government organized) Catholic Church.”

You are misrepresenting the issue on purpose. They are being persecuted for being Christian. That they are Catholic (if they are) is a side issue. I know of many Christians who have been persecuted and had nothing to do with Catholicism.

[driftdiver]

“The offices of “bishop, priest (presbyter) and deacon” are mentioned in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1,8; Titus 1:7 ). “

Yes they are. Where’s the Pope? Where’s the bible indicate you must go thru a priest to be forgiven? Wheres the bible say good works get you to heaven?

“What else is this but “organization?” “

Sure its an organization.

“Is the Church a “visible, earthly” entity? “

Sure it is, the church is where two or more believers come together to worship. It does not require gold, silver, fine architecture, or other trappings of many modern buildings.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“This is nonsense. Muslims are out to kill every non-muslim in the world and you folks are trying to stir up problems within Christianity.”

1) The problems already exist and have existed for almost 500 years. Pretending they don’t exist won’t make them go away.

“Catholics have been persecuted in history. Catholics have also been the persecutors of others.”

Yeah, and?

“What places are targeting Catholics for being catholic?”

China, Russia, historically in America, etc.

[bert]

Cstho;ics have murdered tens of thousands in the name of God. They have very bloody hands.

[driftdiver]

“1) The problems already exist and have existed for almost 500 years. Pretending they don’t exist won’t make them go away.”

The problems with Muslims have existed for about 1000 years. perhaps if you weren’t adding divisiveness to the issue it would be resolved.

“China, Russia, historically in America, etc.”

Wow talk about a victim mentality. Nobody cares about Catholics until you start this “we’re better than you are” garbage.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“You said it was the Catholic church. The church isn’t a label.”

How does that make it a building? Fess up, no one here EVER said THE CHURCH was a building, right? Also, your Protestant philosophy about the Church is NOT orthodox ecclesiology. The Church is THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

“No, I’m quite visible as are those I worship with. We worship in a building thats also visible.”

So are you now claiming that you’re the one who said the Church is a building? Come on, make sense. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that the Church is all believers (when many believers believe VERY different things) and are thus united in an unseen, invisible church, but that your part of a visible church as if the two are one and the same. Make up your mind.

“Men apply their labels in an effort to make themselves believe they are better then others.”

No. Men apply labels to get to the truth. The use of categories is one of the most necessary things in order to discern truth.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“The problems with Muslims have existed for about 1000 years.”

No. The problem with Islam is almost 1400 years old.

“perhaps if you weren’t adding divisiveness to the issue it would be resolved.”

Recognizing reality IS NOT divisive. Are you going to pretend there is no problem between Buddhist beliefs (atheist) and Christianity? I don’t pretend. Problem are real. There’s no reason why we can’t talk about them. Nothing we discuss here is capable of causing any divisiveness between any major religious groups because they are already NECESSARILY divided. I am not interested in pretending. Perhaps you are.

“Wow talk about a victim mentality.”

Victim mentality? You asked: “What places are targeting Catholics for being catholic?” I answered. How does answering the question truthfully and accurately with 6 words mean I have a victim mentality? I suggest you stop using personal attacks and stick to the issues you yourself raise.

“Nobody cares about Catholics until you start this “we’re better than you are” garbage.”

And who is starting that? I never said anything about Catholics being better. I said Christ established the Catholic Church, and He did. That has nothing to do with anyone saying “we’re better than you are.”

If you can’t handle the debate like an adult, maybe you should engage in it.

[driftdiver]

“Cstho;ics have murdered tens of thousands in the name of God. They have very bloody hands.”

Absolutely. Many church leaders use peoples faith and desire to serve God for their own selfish agendas. The bible says these people will receive a harsh judgment for their actions.

To my knowledge the modern catholic church does not resort to violence anymore. I don’t see where the catholic church is a force for God in the world though.

The issues I have with the Catholics are:
1. individuals like those on this thread that seek to spread discord among Christians instead of spreading Gods word.
2. the idol worship
3. making the Pope a demi-god
4. requiring an intermediary for salvation
5. assigning a non-biblical importance to Mary and placing her on equal station to Jesus
6. the “I can do anything I want as long as I go to Mass” attitude of many Catholics I’ve known.

I’m sure I’ll get flamed now but I’m attempting to do this in a respectful way.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Cstho;ics have murdered tens of thousands in the name of God. They have very bloody hands.”

I’m Catholic and my hands are spotless. What about the many thousands of Catholics murdered by Protestants in Ireland, Scotland, Northern Germany? I guess that would mean Protestants are covered in blood right?

[bert]

Did you check under your nails?

[driftdiver]

‘The Church is THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.”

No, the Church is the body of people worshipping Jesus.

‘So are you now claiming that you’re the one who said the Church is a building? Come on, make sense. “

“You can’t say that the Church is all believers (when many believers believe VERY different things) and are thus united in an unseen, invisible church,”

The Bible says the Church is those that worship Jesus. I guess that would mean all believers although there are many false teachers out there. You are the one that introduced invisibility. Got super secret x-ray glasses or something?

Show me the word Catholic in the Bible. Its not there. Shame on you

“. Men apply labels to get to the truth. The use of categories is one of the most necessary things in order to discern truth.”

Men also apply labels to get to power, money, greed, or a misunderstood “Truth”.

[Iscool]

"You are Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church." Matt 16:18

Well, that blows up your premise right from the start...Peter was not the ROCK that Jesus built His church on...The verse doesn't say that...Faulty interpretation...

Who's next??? Hey, I'll go...My church was pre-ordained from the foundation of the world...The church that Jesus founded...The calling out of BELIEVERS...

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Did you check under your nails?”

Sorry, but the Black and Tans pulled mine out.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/legacy-of-the-black-and-tans-ballyvourney-where-the-wind-really-shakes-the-barley-407464.html

[driftdiver]

“And who is starting that? I never said anything about Catholics being better. I said Christ established the Catholic Church, and He did. That has nothing to do with anyone saying “we’re better than you are.””

In post 12 you said “Since Protestantism came 1500 years after Christ IT must be apostate Christianity.”

An apostate is a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.

Christ established the Church. The Church he created had nothing to do with a Pope, wax figurines of Mary, solid gold trappings or false teachings.

[Iscool]

“Its the body of people that worship and accept Jesus as their savior.”

Now you're stealing the line from bible believing Protestants...

If you really believed this, you'd admit that there are Christians in every church and some not even in man made churches...

You forgot to add; THRU YOUR CHURCH...THRU YOUR CHURCH...

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“No, the Church is the body of people worshipping Jesus.”

Nope. That was only in the first century when Christ first established the Church, the Catholic Church. After that, when sects like Protestants showed up, only the Catholic Church and not sectarian believers were in the Church.

“The Bible says the Church is those that worship Jesus.”

1) It says much more than that. 2) In the first century, when Christ first established the Church, the Catholic Church it was made up of all believers. After that, when sects like Protestants showed up, only the Catholic Church and not sectarian believers were in the Church.

“I guess that would mean all believers although there are many false teachers out there. You are the one that introduced invisibility.”

No, you introduced the flip side of it. I guess you don’t even know enough to know you did. Sheesh!

Here’s what you wrote: “Its the body of people that worship and accept Jesus as their savior.” That is part and parcel of the modernistic Protestant concept of the church that removes it from the reality of sectarianism.

“Got super secret x-ray glasses or something?”

No, common sense. You should try it sometime.

“Show me the word Catholic in the Bible.”

First, show me the word Bible in the Bible. How about Trinity? Where’s that in the Bible? Yeah, no where. Clearly we all believe in things that are not explicitly mentioned by name in the Bible. Deal with it.

“Its not there. Shame on you”

No, the shame is all yours. Again, where’s “Trinity” in the Bible?

“Men also apply labels to get to power, money, greed, or a misunderstood “Truth”.”

Maybe, but are you saying we should throw out all that is good because some people do bad? Please, make sense.

[driftdiver]

I looked up Troll and they have a link to your profile.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“In post 12 you said “Since Protestantism came 1500 years after Christ IT must be apostate Christianity.””

yes.

“An apostate is a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.”

And?

“Christ established the Church. The Church he created had nothing to do with a Pope, wax figurines of Mary, solid gold trappings or false teachings.”

Get real. The Church He established had nothing to do with altar calls, electric guitars, leather bound bibles, sola scriptura, sola fide, Protestant rebellion, schism, or apostasy.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“I looked up Troll and they have a link to your profile.”

Can’t be. That’s your mother’s picture there. She must be hard for you to recognize now that they shaved her back.

[NYer]

Yes they are. Where’s the Pope? Where’s the bible indicate you must go thru a priest to be forgiven? Wheres the bible say good works get you to heaven?

Where's the Pope? - Throughout the Acts of the Apostles, St. Peter is clearly the leader of the Christian community (Acts 1:15, 5:1-10).  And again, he is listed first among the Apostles in the New Testament (Matthew 10:2; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:13-14).  Before St. Peter was crucified, he appointed St. Linus as his successor. Why should this practice not be carried on to the present day? There is an unbroken line of Popes from St. Peter down to the present-day Pope. The Papacy is the oldest institution in the Western World. How could it have survived 2000 years without the grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit? The Primacy of Peter

Where’s the bible indicate you must go thru a priest to be forgiven? - John 20:22-23

Wheres the bible say good works get you to heaven? - James 2:14-26, Romans 2:6; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Matthew 25:31-46, Revelations, Revelations 22:12 - and others but the full clarification of the Catholic teaching on this topic is in the Catechism:

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Good Works:"

1821. "We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. [Cf. Rom 8:28-30 ; Mt 7:21 .] In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' [Mt 10:22 ; cf. Council of Trent DS 1541.] and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for 'all men to be saved.'[1 Tim 2:4 .] She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:  Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end. [St. Teresa of Avila, Excl. 15:3.]"

2008. "The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit."

2009. "Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us 'co-heirs' with Christ and worthy of obtaining 'the promised inheritance of eternal life.' [Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.] The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.] 'Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due.... Our merits are God's gifts.' [St. Augustine, Sermon 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367.]"

Where in Scripture is Sola Scriptura found?

[driftdiver]

“Get real. The Church He established had nothing to do with altar calls, electric guitars, leather bound bibles, sola scriptura, sola fide, Protestant rebellion, schism, or apostasy.”

You get real, you accused non-Catholic Christians of being apostates and then claimed not to be judging Protestants. That makes you dishonest hence my last post calling you a troll. Strawmans and arguing in circles is not debate.

The church he created did have a lot to do with joy in worship. The things many protestants do are to bring joy to people and help to support the Great Commission of spreading his word to non-believers. As long as it is Biblical (aka the Word) then its is within the bounds of Gods law.

[driftdiver]

“How could it have survived 2000 years without the grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit?”

Satan still exists so your argument is invalid. (I’m not comparing Catholics to Satan just the argument.)

[driftdiver]

“Can’t be. That’s your mother’s picture there. She must be hard for you to recognize now that they shaved her back.”

Yes that confirms it. You can’t even apologize for calling all non-catholics apostate and then you insult my mother. You are slime and if you are indicative of what Catholics are then you do far more to drive people away from salvation.

[NYer]

Well, that blows up your premise right from the start...Peter was not the ROCK that Jesus built His church on...The verse doesn't say that...Faulty interpretation..

Faulty belief in private interpretation of the Bible which is not condoned in the Bible Itself.

Peter and the Papacy

[driftdiver]

You might be interested in this although I don’t expect you to agree with it.

http://www.carm.org/catholic/peter.htm

Is Peter the rock on which the Church is built?

“For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ,” (1 Cor. 3:11).

[firebrand]

In 2000, the People's Republic of China government census enumerated 4 million Chinese Catholics and 10 million ‎Protestants[26]. The Chinese government once stated that only 1% (13 million) [27] of the population is Christian while the Chinese Embassy states that 10 Million (0.75%)[28] are Christian. The official figure in 2002, which consists of members from Official Protestant churches, is about 15 million, while some estimates on members of Chinese house churches vary from 50 million to 100 million.

The CIA World Factbook indictates that about 3% to 4% of all the population in China are Christians.[29] Independent estimates have ranged from 40 million[27], to 100 million[30], or even 130 million Christians in January 2007 (out of a total population of at least 1.3 billion people).[31][32]

In October 2007 two surveys were conducted to estimate the number of Christians in China. One poll was held by Protestant missionary Werner Burklin, the other one by Liu Zhongyu from East China Normal University in Shanghai. The surveys were conducted independently and during different periods, but they reached the same results.[10][11] According to these studies, there are roughly 54 million Christians in China, of which 39 million are Protestants and 14 million are Catholics as the most common and reliable figure among others.[10][11]

From Wikipedia.

[driftdiver]

The scripture is the final authority. Do you disagree with that notion?

[driftdiver]

Have you ever seen this? - http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/index.htm

[sasportas]

Were you to understand what the true keys of the kingdom are, and what the true kingdom is, perhaps you would realize how erroneous the RCC interpretation of Matt. 16:18 is.

The Augustinian Amillennialist “kingdom” of Roman Catholicism, the paganized pseudo-Christian tyrant called the RCC that ruled the dark ages - aptly named - most certainly is not the kingdom that Christ spoke of.

Moreover, the paganized pseudo-Christian impostor “Holy Father” ruling from his throne in Rome throughout the dark ages, guilty of the most heinous crimes in the name of Christ, most certainly did not then and does not now have the keys Christ spoke of.

[Tennessee Nana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Religious Wars thread....

Never mind......

[driftdiver]

oh cmon its been fun aside from the insult to my mother. Some rational discussion would be appreciated.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“You get real, you accused non-Catholic Christians of being apostates and then claimed not to be judging Protestants.”

No, I did not. I said: “Since Protestantism came 1500 years after Christ IT must be apostate Christianity.”

Notice, I said Protestantism is apostate Christianity. I never once, EVER, anywhere said that modern day Protestants were either apostates or responsible for the errors of their heretical and schismatic Protestant forefathers. Why is it that so many Protestants struggle to read basic English? Notice how I even wrote “IT” in caps? I was as clear as could be and yet you erroneously wrote: “you accused non-Catholic Christians of being apostates and then claimed not to be judging Protestants.”

Wow, you’re not doing too well here. Pay attention.

“That makes you dishonest hence my last post calling you a troll. Strawmans and arguing in circles is not debate.”

1) I made no strawmen.
2) I was right in what I said and you were the one who falsely said I said something I NEVER EVER SAID ANYWHERE IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.
3) I never argue in circles.
4) Don’t make up things I never said.

“The church he created did have a lot to do with joy in worship. The things many protestants do are to bring joy to people and help to support the Great Commission of spreading his word to non-believers. As long as it is Biblical (aka the Word) then its is within the bounds of Gods law.”

Schism, apostasy, and rebellion are not within the bounds of God’s law. Neither are sectarianism, sola scriptura, sola fide, or other novel Protestant doctrines.

[driftdiver]

Apologize for insulting my mother and I’ll have a rational discourse with you.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Yes that confirms it. You can’t even apologize for calling all non-catholics apostate and then you insult my mother.”

1) I never called all non-Catholics apostates so there’s no reason to apologize. I already demonstrated this fact DEFINITIVELY in the last post.

2) You insulted me by calling me a troll when I am not one. I showed you how foolish that is by sarcastically bringing up your mother. See how that worked? How’d that work out for ya’?

“You are slime and if you are indicative of what Catholics are then you do far more to drive people away from salvation.”

Again, you insult me. Personal insults won’t help your failing case.

Oh, and remember, you were completely wrong about what I said about apostate Protestantism and you misrepresented what I said.

Case closed.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Apologize for insulting my mother and I’ll have a rational discourse with you.”

1) You insulted me first, so you must apologize first.

2) You must admit you were wrong in calling me a troll and in falsely saying I said something I never said - and you must be explicit about what it is that I said and did not say.

3) Do this and you will prove to be desrving of an apology from me.

The ball is in your court.