Skip to comments.Cardinal Egan Blasts Pelosi (in brilliantly scathing response) [Open]
Posted on 08/26/2008 10:37:18 AM PDT by NYer
Wow! This is a brilliantly scathing response to Nancy Pelosi and her comments on Meet The Press Sunday concerning abortion. Here's the amazing statement in full.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: August 26, 2008Wow! Wow! Wow!
STATEMENT OF HIS EMINENCE, EDWARD CARDINAL EGAN CONCERNING REMARKS MADE BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Like many other citizens of this nation, I was shocked to learn that the Speaker of the House of Representatives of the United States of America would make the kind of statements that were made to Mr. Tom Brokaw of NBC-TV on Sunday, August 24, 2008. What the Speaker had to say about theologians and their positions regarding abortion was not only misinformed; it was also, and especially, utterly incredible in this day and age.
We are blessed in the 21st century with crystal-clear photographs and action films of the living realities within their pregnant mothers. No one with the slightest measure of integrity or honor could fail to know what these marvelous beings manifestly, clearly, and obviously are, as they smile and wave into the world outside the womb. In simplest terms, they are human beings with an inalienable right to live, a right that the Speaker of the House of Representatives is bound to defend at all costs for the most basic of ethical reasons. They are not parts of their mothers, and what they are depends not at all upon the opinions of theologians of any faith. Anyone who dares to defend that they may be legitimately killed because another human being “chooses” to do so or for any other equally ridiculous reason should not be providing leadership in a civilized democracy worthy of the name.
Edward Cardinal Egan
Archbishop of New York
August 26, 2008
Couldn’t have said it better and, I might add, didn’t. ;-)
I said that about Obama. Anyone who could deny the survivor of an abortion medical treatment and leave that tiny human soul to gasp out its last in a bedpan in a broom closet doesn’t have what it takes to lead this nation. All issues after that “judgment” he’s so famous for are moot.
Give Benedict XVI a little more time. I think you’ll be seeing some folks transferring their church affiliations across town to some of the more liberal denominations or, God willing, changing their positions.
The Speaker only would need to open up her BibleI doubt that the same airhead who fabricated a quote from "the Old Testament" (could she name a single book if she had to?) would even know where to where to begin looking for that passage.
1 Cor. 11: 23-29
Technically, that is up to her Bishop to tell her. But it’s still nice to see more in the hierarchy speak up. Pro-choice Catholics - and I know many - will be shocked. It’s a pity that such teachings haven’t been made more explicit over the years.
That’s just a pity.
Personally, I would drive to see it!
Recall that the Holy Father recently spent a few evenings at his residence :-) That HAD to make an impression.
Does it really matter? She's a professional politician; she's in it for herself, not God.
“I have the feeling she is guilty of hearing what she wants to hear.”
That may be, but that wasn't what you said to which I replied.
You originally said:
I have a feeling she simply shows up at Mass, receives the sacraments and, occasionally, hears someone tell her what is in the Bible and how she should believe it.
This isn't quite what happens at Mass, and thus, I pointed out what does actually happen at Mass. First, she does not “occasionally” hear “someone tell her what is in the Bible.”
Rather, as often as she goes to Mass, she hears the Word of God, itself. Every time. Not occasionally. Not what someone tells her is in the Bible, but rather, the Word of God, itself.
You may be right that it may go in one ear and out the other, or that in her own mind, she might twist it all around.
But as often as she attends Mass (and I'm made to understand that she attends Mass generally weekly), she directly hears the Word of God.
Just to clarify the situation, the Catholic Church follows Scripture on these matters, specifically, 1 Corinthians 11:27-29.
As so many others have already pointed out, Pelosi may attend Mass where she will hear Scripture read but, like others in her mindless situation, might feel embarrased to not go up for communion. Hence, the Church views this as unworthy reception of communion. Specifically, a person who eats and drinks unworthily is guilty of profaning what is holy. In the above passage, St. Paul warns that "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord." While we cannot reasonably expect that every Eucharistic Minister of Holy Communion can deny her communion (they have no way of knowing whether or not she repented of her sin), we do have the assurance that God knows. In essence, she excommunicates herself, 'latae sentiae' (by her own accord).
I understand that now. Her Archbishop came out with a news release that quotes one from a group of other Bishops. Whether that's followed up on remains to be seen.
I am happy to see other Bishops make statements; especially the one from Archbishop Egan, and from the Archbishop of Denver who takes Biden (and by extension Pelosi) to task regarding the taking of the Sacrament. Both were powerful in their own right.
You may well be right on that. Pelosi's Archbishop gave a news release that quoted a news release made earlier. It will be interesting to see whether it is followed up further.
So, she may or may not attend the table based on her own cognizance. Should she attend without having first repented, she may be given the Sacrament by Ministers unfamiliar of her situation, she’s still apart from God and in excommunication by her own accord.
I think I understand that now. I want to thank you, and all who have responded, and put up with one trying to understand a somewhat complicated issue. Your tolerance of my persistence is greatly appreciated.
Oh! This is getting good!
How, precisely, do you believe that Ms. Pelosi, or other pro-abort Catholic politicians, has/have incurred excommunication latae sententiae?
Cardinal Egan finally found the bully pulpit that O’Connor used to use. Better late than never.
How do you think they haven’t?
Indeed! God bless that sainted man. I will NEVER forget his funeral and the shamed expression on the faces of then President Clinton, his wife Hillary and VP Gore and his wife.
At one point in the sermon, O'Connor's hand picked homilist said, "What a great legacy he has left us in his constant reminder that the Church must always be unambiguously pro- life."
There was a beat and then applause broke out. It grew louder, increasing as the cameras fixed on the Clinton-Gore party showing them on screens throughout the cathedral. Cardinal Law attempted to quiet the crowd with his hand, when suddenly the congregation began to stand up, applauding in a wave that moved from the back of the church to the front. If it hadn't been a funeral they would have cheered. It was a defiant, pivotal moment.
Now since I found the right reference, as you know, anyone who has an abortion is excommunicated. Also accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.
She isn’t promoting abortion so no one can get one.
“How do you think they havent?”
Simple - until one is shown to be excommunicated, it is reasonable to assume that one is not.
“Also accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.
“She isnt promoting abortion so no one can get one.”
Not sure what you're saying here.
I'll ask again - how does one come to the conclusion that Ms. Pelosi - and other pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians - is/are excommunicated?
When a public person who has sinned publicly repents of their sin, it must be done publicly. Unless the Democrat party changes its platform, none of these national Dem politicians will be publicly renouncing their pro-abortion position (pro-abort Repubs are a different kettle of fish). They can rationalize away while here on earth, but if they do not have a spiritual conversion, they will have a very unpleasant meeting with their Maker (not to mention the rest of eternity).
If you have an abortion, it’s a latae sententiae.
If you are a person without whom an abortion could not be obtained, you are also latae sententiae.
Without Nancy and her ilk, abortion would not be legal and hard to obtain. She is an “accomplice who is not named in the law because without her assistance the violation of the law (the abortion) would not be committed.”
“If you are a person without whom an abortion could not be obtained, you are also latae sententiae.”
No, that's not what the canon says.
What does it say precisely?
This is the reference given for  here...
Latae sententiae is a Latin term used in the canon law of the Catholic Church meaning literally “given (laid down) sentence”.
Officially, a latae sententiae penalty follows automatically, by force of the law itself, when the law is contravened. A latae sententiae penalty may be either one of excommunication, interdict, or suspension. Excommunication prohibits the exercise of certain baptismal rights, and may involve restrictions on participation in liturgical events and church governance, and the reception of church benefits. An interdict involves the same liturgical restrictions as excommunication, but does not affect participation in church governance. Suspension, which affects only members of the clergy, affects all or some acts of power of orders, governance, or functions attached to an office.
In the code of Roman Catholic canon law currently in force, there are eight instances when a person may incur excommunication latae sententiae. Unless the excusing circumstances outlined in canons 1321-1330 are verified, the following persons incur excommunication latae sententiae:
an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic;
a person who throws away the consecrated Eucharistic species or takes and retains them for a sacrilegious purpose;
a person who uses physical force against the Pope;
a priest who absolves an accomplice in a sin against the sixth commandment (the ban on adultery) except in danger of death;
a bishop who ordains someone a bishop without a pontifical mandate, and the person who receives the ordination from him;
a confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal of confession;
a person who procures a completed abortion; and
accomplices who are not named in a law prescribing latae sententiae excommunication but without whose assistance the violation of the law would not have been committed.
Various other persons incur excommunication latae sententiae by papal decree, including:
a person who violates the secrecy of a papal election, or who interferes with it by means such as simony;
a woman who is ordained as a priest or a bishop who ordains a woman as a priest.
Some instances in which one incurs interdict latae sententiae include the following:
using physical force against a bishop;
attempting to preside at Eucharist, or giving sacramental absolution, when not a priest;
falsely denouncing a confessor for soliciting a penitent to sin against the sixth commandment; and
a perpetually professed religious who attempts marriage.
If the ecclesiastical authority notices someone incurring what it considers a latae sententiae penalty, it may declare that the person has done so. However, the punishment is in effect since the perceived fault was committed, and the declaration simply aims to ascertain what the Church considers a fact.
A latae sententiae penalty differs from a ferendae sententiae (sentence to be made) one. If one commits an ecclesiastical offense for which a ferendae sententiae punishment is prescribed, the penalty will only take effect when imposed by the competent ecclesiastical authority.
Note that latae sententiae is an adjectival phrase accompanying a noun, such as “excommunication”. In connection with a verb, the corresponding adverbial phrase is in ablative absolute form, as in: “He was excommunicated lata sententia.”
I know they are apart from God. That goes without saying. It’s how it is handled by the Church that has befuddled me. And I’m unsure why you say her repentance must be public. Because her sin was public? That makes no sense. Repentance is between oneself and God. Why must it be a public spectacle? Also, why are Repub pro-choicers a “different kettle of fish”?
LOL! In our dreams. Although, given the recent momentum we may yet see it in our lifetimes.
Pelosi, being a self proclaimed ardent Catholic, knows good and well that, as an unrepentant proponent of infanticide, she is not to be receiving Communion and there is no question about that fact.
Published: February 1, 2007
A priest writes to Nancy Pelosi
If you can kill a baby in the womb, Nancy, why not outside of it?
Fr. John Malloy, pastor of Saints Peter and Paul Church in San Francisco, penned this Open letter to Nancy Pelosi, which was recently published in the parish bulletin. We reprint it here with Fr. Malloys permission.
Nancy, you are fooling yourself and I fear fooling many good Catholics. You are simply not in sync with the Catholic Church. Until you change your non-Catholic positions, you should stop calling yourself Catholic. Your record shows that you support embryonic stem cell research, Planned Parenthood, contraception, family planning funding, allowing minors to have an abortion without parental consent, and are against making it a crime to harm a fetus, etc. etc.
The fact that you favor married priests and women priests certainly would not classify you as conservative, but your answer to the question are you a conservative Catholic was:
I think so. I was raised in a very strict upbringing in a Catholic home where we respected people, were observant, were practicing Catholics, and that the fundamental belief was that God gave us all a free will, and we were accountable for that, each of us. Each person had that accountability, so it wasnt for us to make judgments about how people saw their responsibility and that it wasnt for politicians to make decisions about how people led their personal lives; certainly, to a high moral standards, but when it got into decisions about privacy and all the rest, then that was something that individuals had to answer to God for, and not to politicians.
That sounds fair and tolerant, but your record belies high moral standards.
The NARAL rates you 100% pro-abortion. Your statement: To me it isnt even a question. God has given us a free will. Were all responsible for our actions. If you dont want an abortion, you dont believe in it, [then] dont have one. But dont tell somebody else what they can do in terms of honoring their responsibilities. My family is very pro-life. Theyre not fanatics and theyre not activists. I think theyd like it if I were not so vocally pro-choice.
Do we not elect politicians to make laws that help people honor their responsibilities, such as protecting life itself? Can politicians not tell someone else not to kill? If you can kill a baby in the womb, Nancy, why not outside of it? Oh wait, you are in favor of partial birth abortion, so-called because the baby sticks out of the mother about halfway, while the doctor sucks out the baby's brain. That seems comparable to the choice the Nazis made killing six million Jews.
Yes, Nancy, we (together with your pro-life family) would all like it if you were not so vocally pro-choice, i.e. pro-death. Until your choice is in line with Catholic doctrine, please, Nancy, do not receive the Eucharist when you attend Mass.
Rev. John Malloy, SDB
San Francisco, CA
© California Catholic Daily 2007. All Rights Reserved.
It’s nice to see the Catholic leadership putting their foot down in the media about the unborn. It’s about time.
My only issue with the priest’s letter is that he says he fears she is “fooling many good Catholics.” I am not a Catholic, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Ms. Pelosi is hardly going to fool “good” Catholics who actually know what their Church teaches and follow its teachings.
Otherwise, good for him. He nails it right on the head.
I see in there that excommunication latae sententiae obtains for those who procure completed abortions. I am made to understand that this applies as well to those who give formal assistance to a specific case of a completed abortion.
But the first question is whether pro-abortion politicians are giving formal assistance to specific acts of completed abortion. It seems to me that one can argue that rather, they are making no obstacle to abortion, rather than that they are actively assisting in the act of abortion.
For those who also believe that the government should pay for abortions, the argument that they are not actively assisting in the procurement of abortion is weakened. But for folks who merely state that the government ought not prevent abortions, the answer to the question is much less clear.
The other difficulty is the distinction between proximate cooperation and remote cooperation. It's difficult to argue that pro-abortion politicians are giving proximate cooperation to individual completed abortions. And generally, I'd always been under the impression that severe penalties in Church law usually are not imposed for folks whose cooperation with evil is remote.
Not too long ago, some Mexican bishops excommunicated Mexican legislators for voting for pro-abortion laws in Mexico. Pope Benedict was initially quoted as approving of that action. That would strongly suggest that pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians ARE excommunicated latae sententiae. (We should remember that the bishops who were claiming that these politicians were excommunicated were not affording the politicians any canonical due process - thus, any excommunication would have to be latae sententiae).
Yet, a day or so later, the official word from the Vatican was that that was not what Pope Benedict actually meant.
I think that there are other potential grounds to claim that pro-abortion “Catholic” politicians are excommunicated latae sententiae. But these other grounds, much as your suggested grounds, are speculative.
Even Archbishop Burke and other relative “hardliners” haven't suggested that these folks are excommunicated latae sententiae (at least as far as I'm aware), only that they should not be admitted to Holy Communion. And indeed, that is what then-Cardinal Ratzinger said in his letter to the American bishops in 2004 - that pro-abort politicians should be excluded from the Blessed Sacrament - NOT that they are excommunicated latae sententiae.
I think that it would be better for us to stay on the firmer ground of asserting that these politicians should be denied the Blessed Sacrament. I think the question of excommunication latae sententiae is an open question, and not within the competence of any of us here.
I am not a Vatican lawyer. I believe that those who openly condone and have a hand in keeping abortion legal do excommunicate themselves.
You see it differently and until some action is taken, we really don’t know the answer.
Poster ELS brought up the concept of a public repentance for a an elected official who grievously sins in a public manner. I can see where that would be appropriate in a case like this where there is the potential for leading large numbers of people astray, and allow them the chance to see a real-life example of repentance and redemption. Can you cite any Cannon Law or Encyclical that addresses this issue? There is the Scriptural basis for the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confessing our sins to each other) that I suppose could be extended to the public realm if appropriate, but I'm wondering if there are other references?
Of course, there is the private reconciliation between her and God. This must happen before the public renunciation of her pro-abortion position.
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"Because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. He is the saviour of his body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish. So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church: Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be two in one flesh. This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church." Ephesians 5:23-32
“I am not a Vatican lawyer.”
“I believe that those who openly condone and have a hand in keeping abortion legal do excommunicate themselves.”
First, we're Catholic. It doesn't matter what we think or believe. What is true is objectively true whether we believe it or not. What is false is objectively false whether we believe it or not.
Second, are you saying that anyone who merely condones abortion is excommunicated latae sententiae, or only those who condone AND “have a hand in keeping abortion legal”?
I'm pretty sure that lay Catholics who privately hold the opinion that abortion should be legal are not excommunicated latae sententiae.
“You see it differently...”
It's not that I see it differently. I can make the case either way, to the limits of my limited knowledge and ability. It's just that it is a question, as you admit, that HAS NOT BEEN CLEARLY ANSWERED.
And thus, it's just prudence to only go so far as we have knowledge to go. We know that the ground is firm to state that these politicians should not be permitted to receive the Blessed Sacrament.
That's what we should stick to until folks with the appropriate ecclesial authority say otherwise.
We are actually stating the same thing, but you believe one way and I believe the other.
>>You see it differently and until some action is taken, we really dont know the answer.<<
There is no question that the actions of these politicians are gravely evil. Assuming the other attributes of mortal sin, these politicians are mired in it.
“There have been cases in the past where opposition to the teachings of the Church and active dissension with the Church hierarchy has led to excommunication.”
That's true. With sufficient process, these politicians could eventually be excommunicated.
But I'm not sure that they incur excommunication latae sententiae by the mere fact of their opinion on abortion.
“...but you believe one way and I believe the other.”
Actually, I don't believe one way or the other.
It is an unanswered question. Being unanswered, I hold neither position.
And I think that it's appropriate that Catholics should be cautious in advancing the view that these folks are excommunicated latae sententiae. It's been stated as uncontroverted fact on this thread and others. It shouldn't be.
If anyone wishes to say, “My OPINION is that they are excommunicated latae sententiae,” that is within his competence. But it is not within the competence of any lay Catholic to state it as fact. Not without the clear guidance of the competent ecclesial authorities.
I believe that I am right in the way that I read those documents. Therefore until the ruling comes down that says otherwise, I will go with Mother Angelica’s way. She slammed Altar Girls until proven wrong by the Vatican. Then took her place in support of that ruling.
“I believe that I am right...”
The fact that you say it in that way shows that that is your opinion. You should say as much when you make the claim.
There are posters here wondering what is the actual position of the Catholic Church. If folks don't identify their opinion as just that, and assert it as the formal position of the Church, then that's misleading.
Like I said, I’ll handle it like Mother Angelica. If you would like to follow me and put your opinion of the whole situation, please feel free.
The documents speak for themselves.
“The documents speak for themselves.”
The documents do speak for themselves, but you haven't shown at all that they say what YOU say they say. In fact, strictly speaking about Canon 1398, it would seem that it does NOT apply to pro-abort politicians.
If you want to assert your position as objective fact, you should at least make some effort to support it with a logical argument on behalf of the assertion.
I did. I posted the documents.
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