Posted on 09/03/2008 7:38:05 PM PDT by nickcarraway
The Pope has begun a crackdown on the world’s largest illicit Catholic shrine – by suspending the priest at the centre of claims that the Virgin Mary has appeared more than 40,000 times.
Benedict XVI has authorised ‘severe cautionary and disciplinary measures’ against Father Tomislav Vlasic, the former ‘spiritual director’ to six children who said Our Lady was appearing to them at Medjugorje in Bosnia.
The Franciscan priest has been suspended after he refused to cooperate into claims of scandalous sexual immorality ‘aggravated by mystical motivations’.
He has also been accused of ‘the diffusion of dubious doctrine, manipulation of consciences, suspected mysticism and disobedience towards legitimately issued orders’, and is suspected of heresy and schism.
Father Vlasic was a central figure in promoting the apparitions that allegedly began in 1981 and continue to this day.
In 1984 he boasted to Pope John Paul II that he was the one ‘who through divine providence guides the seers of Medjugorje’ and the visionaries even said that the Virgin had told them he was a living saint.
But the Bosnian cleric later took a back seat when it emerged that he had fathered a child with a nun called Sister Rufina, and that he refused to leave his order to marry her but instead begged her not to expose him.
Father Vlasic then moved to Parma, Italy, where he set up a mixed male and female religious community, called Queen of Peace, which was dedicated to the Medjugorje apparitions.
Medjugorje has grown to become the most visited unauthorised Catholic shrine in the world, attracting hundreds of thousands of pilgrims a year, including many from the UK and Ireland.
But the local bishops are convinced the claims are bogus and in 2006 complained directly to Pope Benedict.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Is Mel Gibson’s priest, next?
I don’t know who you are talking about, but has he made millions of dollars and defied the Catholic Church.
For the record, there has been no crackdown against Medjugorje and the shrine is not illicit. Catholics are free to visit the shrine, the Church has not yet ruled on the validity of the apparitions and because of this, official church pilgrimages may not be organized as the Church can not give its blessing to pilgrimages to a site still under investigation.
Fr. Vlasic broke with the visionaries some time ago and his behavior has been both scandalous and erratic since that time. The disciplinary measures imposed on him have no bearing on the current status of the apparitions.
Vlasic makes a good pickle though... [just kidding]
Did you read the entire article?
"In 1985 Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger – now Pope Benedict – banned pilgrimages to the site, but this has been widely ignored."
And:
"But the local bishops are convinced the claims are bogus and in 2006 complained directly to Pope Benedict.
This led to a Vatican investigation which turned the spotlight on the role of Father Vlasic.
The priest has now been suspended by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith after he refused to cooperate with the inquiry into his conduct, instead ‘justifying himself by citing his zealous activity’ in initiating religious communities and building churches the Medjugorje area.
The decree confirming his suspension was signed with the Pope’s approval by Cardinal William Levada, head of CDF, and Father Jose Carballo, the Minister General of the Franciscan Minor Order."
Just another Catholic Bigot
>>Church has not yet ruled on the validity of the apparitions <<
The Vatican doesn’t have to. The Bishop said that nothing supernatural has gone on there. Done deal.
It’s Catholic Disney World lead by “seers” who disobeyed their Bishop.
And flat out evil in my opinion.
The Devil sometimes comes as an Angel of Light.
Here is an article saying the Pope was going to do this from back in June.
Vatican will reject Medjugorje, says bishop
6 June 2008
An Italian bishop has predicted that the Vatican will soon declare as false the claims that the Virgin Mary has been appearing to a group of visionaries in Medjugorje, Bosnia, for nearly 30 years.
Emeritus Bishop Andrea Gemma of Isernia-Venafro said that he believed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has been studying the claims since 2006, would not rule in favour of the six seers at the end of a review of the alleged apparitions.
“You’ll see that soon the Vatican will intervene with something explosive to unmask once and for all who is behind this deceit,” the 77-year-old bishop told Petrus, an online Italian Catholic journal.
Bishop Gemma, the most senior exorcist in the Catholic Church until his retirement two years ago, said he personally believed the phenomenon to be a “scandal” and a “diabolical deceit”.
He said: “It is a phenomenon which is absolutely diabolical, around which revolve many underground interests. Holy Mother Church, the only one able to pronounce, through the mouth of the Bishop of Mostar, has already said publicly, and officially, that the Madonna has never appeared at Medjugorje and that this whole sham is the work of the demon.”
He said: “In Medjugorje everything happens in function of money: pilgrimages, lodging houses, sale of trinkets.
“So much so that abusing the good faith of those poor souls who go there thinking to encounter the Madonna, the false seers have organised themselves financially, have enriched themselves and live a rather comfortable life.
“Just think, one of them organizes directly from America, with a direct economic interest, tens of thousands of pilgrimages every year. These don’t seem to me to be disinterested persons.
“Thus, together with those who shore up this noisy deception, they patently have every interest in convincing people that they see and speak with the Virgin Mary.”
Since the first alleged apparition on 25 June 1981, the seers say they have seen Mary on about 40,000 occasions during which time she has supposedly imparted tens of thousands of messages and dozens of secrets.
Medjugorje has since become a popular destination for pilgrims, attracting more than five million visitors, including hundreds of thousands each year from the UK and the Irish Republic.
Pilgrims have included Spanish tenor José Carreras, who performed a concert there, and the American actor Jim Cavaziel, who played Jesus in Mel Gibson’s blockbuster The Passion of the Christ.
The Medjugorje phenomenon began when a group of children told a priest they had seen the Virgin on a hillside near their town.
An investigation by Bishop Pavao Zanic of Mostar-Duvno found the claims inconsistent with the faith and they were dismissed as false. But the seers responded by claiming that the Virgin had told them that the bishop was a “wolf” who would perish unless he accepted the apparitions as true.
Three Church commissions failed to find evidence to support of their claims and in 1991 the bishops of the former Yugoslavia declared that “it cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations”.
Their judgments have sharply divided Catholics and the Vatican, which banned pilgrimages to the site in 1985 and began a review of the claims two years ago.
According to the Sunday Times newspaper some of the seers have grown wealthy as a result of their claims - and so has their town. Some seers today own smart executive houses with immaculate gardens, double garages and security gates, and one has a tennis court. They also own expensive cars and have married - one of them, Ivan Dragicevic, to an American former beauty queen.
The new Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, Ratko Peric, is as opposed to the claims as his predecessor and in 2004 he upheld the suspension of Fr Jozo Zovko, the “spiritual adviser” to the visionaries.
Who is infallible bysides God?
Sexual immorality and disobedience are two hallmarks of a vision not originating from God.
I “saw the light” about Medjugorie years ago. Everytime I see a special on it or it’s mentioned in my parish, my blood pressure rises. Imagine, the BVM supposedly appears to Ivan? (his name?) every day. That would ammount to thousands of apparitions. She appeared only a couple times to Bernadette, a few times to the Fatima children. She doesn’t need to appear thousands of times. Have any of these “visionaries” become nuns or priests? You’d think that after receiving messages from the Mother of our Lord, that at least ONE of them would have pursued a religious life.
I wish Focus T.V. would beg off of Medjugorie as well.
I’m sorry, but in this case the tabloid is right. Study the canonical procedure for an apparition. What has been done by the bishop (and applicable bishop’s conference) means exactly that no Catholic should be going to visit this alleged apparition. Only because of the confusion of the Church in the last 20 years is this still going on. They are taking advantage of a loophole in Church teachings by having the visions go on in perpetuity, which by the normal process means the Vatican doesn’t get involved. But the fact is, by Church law, the Vatican doesn’t have to. Once the Bishop/bishops conference makes the ruling they have, IT’S OVER.
I can’t find this verified by any reputable publication.
Thank you for the link!
As I suspected, this is a condemnation of the Fr. Vlasic.
This is NOT the Pope issuing a statement on Medjugorje.
The Pope already has.
Look up how the approval process works. The Bishop has the first say. Once the Bishop say nothing supernatural, the Vatican agrees. The Bishop said that twenty years ago and yet Catholics ignored him.
The problem comes in that JPII seemed to like this fraud. B16 is much more reasonable.
From Catholic News Service 2006:
Since June 24-25, 1981, the alleged visionaries together claim to have received more than 30,000 messages.
But Bishop Peric said in his homily that “so-called apparitions, messages, secrets and signs do not strengthen the faith, but rather further convince us that in all of this there is nothing either authentic or established as truthful.”
He said in February that Pope Benedict XVI expressed similar doubts when they discussed Medjugorje during the Bosnian bishops’ visit to the Vatican.
Bishop Peric told the congregation that because the church did not accept the claims of the visionaries it was illicit for priests to “express their private views contrary to the official position” during Mass, in acts of popular piety or in the Catholic media.
He said Catholics were FORBIDDEN from making pilgrimages to Medjugorje if by such visits “they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions or if by undertaking them attempt to certify these apparitions.”
All the priest have been expelled from the Franscian order for refusing to obey their local ordainaries (Bishops) and the Holy See. Including the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith which forbids people to pilgrim. While they will not stop people from traveling there, to go with the idea of seeing the site for religious reasons is not allowed.
Anyone who goes there is following schizmatics against the laws and teachings of the Church which is the equivilent to renouncing your Catholic faith.
Please don’t ignore the facts and promote this falsehood. You can read the book by Michael Davies, “Medjugorje - After Twenty-One Years”. online. Once you do, you’ll realize what is going on there.
Let us hope so.
Trying to avoid polemics and without taking sides, this is the situation, as best I understand it.
Bishop Zanic, who was Bishop of Mostar at the time the apparitions commenced, pronounced negatively on the apparitions. However, the situation in Mostar had been complicated by the long-standing animosity existing between the Franciscans and the local diocese and because of this, the Vatican and the bishops of Yuogoslavia intervened.
Furthermore, since the Medjugorje events had exceeded the scope of a local event, Cardinal Kuharic, President of the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference, announced in January 1987 that a national commission would be established to continue investigating. This decision had been communicated to the Holy See, which stated that it accepted the judgment of the diocesan commission under the authority of the local bishop but urged, as well, that the work be continued at the national level. The Bishops' Conference's instructions to the faithful were that pilgrimages should not be organized to Medjugorje on the basis of its being supernatural and that the Marian devotion of Catholics should be in accordance with Church teaching.
In April 1991 the following declaration was made by the Bishops' Conference of the former Yugoslavia:
The bishops, from the very beginning, have been following the events of Medjugorje through the Bishop of the diocese [Mostar], the Bishop's Commission and the Commission of the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia on Medjugorje.
On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations. [emphasis added] However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church. For this purpose the bishops will issue specially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise, through their Commission they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in Medjugorje.
From the point of view of an ecclesiastical evaluation the status of Medjugorje has not changed since this 1991 declaration. The Holy See has allowed this status to remain as it is. Responding to bishops on the matter it simply repeats the aforementioned decision. However, a response from the Secretary of the Doctrinal Congregation, Archbishop Bertone, to a French bishop in 1996 precipitated a flurry of reports that Medjugorje was off-limits to Catholics. In August 1996 the Director of the Holy See's Press Office, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, stated:
You cannot say people cannot go there until it has been proven false. This has not been said, so anyone can go if they want.
...When one reads what Archbishop Bertone wrote, one could get the impression that from now on everything is forbidden, no possibility [for Catholics to travel to Medjugorje] ... nothing has changed, nothing new has been said.
...The problem is if you systematically organize pilgrimages, organize them with the bishop and the Church, you are giving a canonical sanction to the facts of Medjugorje. This is different from people going in a group who bring a priest with them in order to go to confession.
...Has the church or the Vatican said no [to Catholics visiting Medjugorje]? NO. ... The difference, in the terms of canon law, is that an official pilgrimage, organized by the diocese with the bishop, is a way of giving a juridical sanction to the facts; you are saying this is true.
More recently in a letter to the Bishop of St. Denis, Archbishop Bertone commented on a statement by the current Bishop of Mostar that the alleged apparitions were not simply lacking evidence of supernaturality but were in fact NOT supernatural (i.e. definitively so). He stated:
"The main thing I would like to point out is that the Holy See does not ordinarily take a position of its own regarding supposed supernatural phenomena as a court of first instance. As for the credibility of the "apparitions" in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: "On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations." Since the division of Yugoslavia into different independent nations it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Herzegovina to eventually reopen the examination of this case, and to make any new pronouncements that might be called for.
What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of FamilleChretienne, declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate, but likewise, constat de non supernaturalitate of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.
Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentication of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church. "
To say that the situation in Medjugorje is complicated would be an understatement and the behavior of Fr. Vlasic and the recent decision against him do nothing to enhance its credibility. The last thing of note I heard about the apparitions came in 2006. Cardinal Vinko Puljic of Sarajevo, Bosnia-Herzegovina, announced a another commission would be formed to review the apparitions at Medjugorje and pastoral provisions for the thousands of pilgrims who visit the town each year.He said the primary task of the commission would be to review a 1991 report from the region's bishops that concluded, "It cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations." In addition, he said, the commission would be asked to review pastoral provisions that forbid official diocesan and parish pilgrimages to Medjugorje, while at the same time allowing priests to accompany groups of Catholics in order to provide the sacraments and spiritual guidance. When asked if the new commission was the idea of the doctrinal congregation or of the bishops' conference, Cardinal Puljic said, "I would rather not answer that question."
That is my current understanding of the situation.
It’s from the Vatican.
Here is the translation:
Source: http://www.vecernji-list.hr/newsroom/news/croatia/592082/index.do
Translation given below:
SURPRISE FROM VATICAN - HOLY SEE IS TAKING THE MEDJUGORJE PHENOMENON INTO THEIR OWN HANDS
The Church has decided to studiously review the events at Medjugorje and a new Commission will decide.
The Catholic Church is starting a new commission that will look into the Medjugorje events. This sums up what Cardinal Vinko Puljic, president of the Bosnia and Hercegovina Bishops Conference and Archbishop of Sarajevo, said to reporters at the end of the Bishops conference held July12-14, 2006 in Banja Luka. This announcement surprised many, because Medjugorje was not even one of the topics discussed at the meeting. On top of that, it is well know that the Church will not take a definite position about the Medjugorje phenomenon while it is still going on, and even more well known is the position of the bishop of Mostar, who time and again has claimed that there are no apparitions of the Mother of God in his diocese.
The request from the Vatican for a new commission will reanalyze the position of the bishops taken in the 1991 Zadar declaration, by which “it cannot be determined that anything supernatural is happening there”? It cannot ignore what is happening in Medjugorje and has been insisting for over a half a year that something be done.
The Medjugorje phenomenon has had effects all over the world, there are more and more pilgrims from the entire world coming in throngs to the small village in Hercegovina and are praying to the Mother of God. The commission will be put together by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, even though the normal practice is for this kind of commission to be established by the local bishop. But, because of the negative position of Bishop Ratko Peric, the commission will be international in order for it to be completely objective and neutral. It will probably consist of two teams that will have clear jurisdiction and orders.
Holy Place
The Holy See has decided to take Medjugorje into its own hands and finally decide whether Medjugorje is an official shrine of the Blessed Virgin Mary where people come not only privately but with the official recommendation of the Church, or a “normal” place of prayer in which nothing supernatural has occurred.
“I was very happy to hear the news that Cardinal Vinko Puljic announced,” said Father Petar Ljubicic, who is the priest that will announce the secrets of Medjugorje when the time comes. “We have been expecting this for a long time. The Cardinal said that the Holy See, that is the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, will name a new commission that will analyze and look into what has already been happening in Medjugorje for 25 years. Since I was a priest in Medjugorje and have followed the events since the beginning, I am very happy that it will now be looked into more seriously.”
Like it or not, the local Bishop at the time said, nothing supernatural. That means that no matter how many Bishops in the area call commissions and say “well maybe” it does not overcome the fact that the Bishop at the time said nothing supernatural and continues to say that.
Read Michael Davies book. The whole thing is false and people are still going there spending huge bucks in the town. Wonder why the Bishops in the area don’t want it to stop?
Good for you!
We have a very holy priest at our parish that goes into fits at the mention of that place. Because we are a Slovak Parish, people try to sell it all the time.
The whole thing is evil.
Like it or not, the local Bishop at the time said, nothing supernatural. That means that no matter how many Bishops in the area call commissions and say “well maybe” it does not overcome the fact that the Bishop at the time said nothing supernatural and continues to say that.
Not really a question of whether I "like it or not" and nobody is saying "well maybe". The Yugoslav bishops said "no evidence of anything supernatural". The current bishop goes one step further. He says "it definitely is not supernatural". However, as Cardinal Bertone pointed out, that is the Bishop's personal opinion. His is not an infallible statement and the prohibition on pilgrimages refers to official church pilgrimages. Furthermore, if the Vatican accepted the Bishop's opinion as final, then why the new commission?
Bishops say lots of things. Many in this country say that Summorum Pontificum can be ignored. It can't. The current Bishop of St. Petersburg in Florida says "no public adoration of the Blessed Sacrament in my diocese". Neither are correct. As for Michael Davies, I respect his opinion but I'll keep an open mind on this one.
I think the key word with respect to Medjugorje is "prudence". There are certainly lots of question marks over it and if some of the translations of the Gospa's messages and interpretations of same are accurate, they certainly don't square with Catholic teaching. I emphasize the word "if". However, I'd like to give the Church a little time and space to work this one out. Padre Pio was forbidden from saying Mass publicly and hearing confessions for several years while he was investigated by Rome. He's now a saint.
Now here's the good news. Even if the Church was to approve of the apparitions, the same way it has at Lourdes or Fatima, you'd still be under no obligation to believe in them.
BTTT
Interesting to see who lines up on each side.
I realize what I wrote was terrible, terrible English. But please don’t fault me, my family has only been speaking the language for about a hundred years.
That is 100% false. Pope John Paul II did not say anything about it. He respected the process and did not comment, because the "apparitions" didn't end. Unfortunately, these people have found a loophole in the process- becaue the Vatican doesn't wrap things up until after the apparitions stop. And they aren't stopping them. Pope John Paull II never said anything about it, but supporters have taken other words out of context to claim he did.
Actually, I’ve seen letters from the Vatican (not from the Pro apparision sites) stating that JPII was open to the thought of Medjugorje.
Right now, this is all I can find
http://www.dailyestimate.com/article.asp?idarticle=12717
but I have seen them elsewhere.
He did respect the process publicly, but privately remained open to the thought that this may be real. Remember, he was VERY Marian. Hopeful may be the word.
B16 is different. Hopefully, this will be shut down.
I think you are missing the point. It’s not some Bishop, it’s The Bishop who dismissed this as false. The problem is that no one in the area of the cash cow wants to believe him.
This is how a determination is made.
Process of Ecclesial Approval
The local bishop is the first and main authority in apparition cases, which can be defined as instances of private revelation. Bishops evaluate evidence of an apparition according to these guidelines:
1. The facts in the case are free of error.
2. The person(s) receiving the messages is/are psychologically balanced, honest, moral, sincere and respectful of church authority.
3. Doctrinal errors are not attributed to God, Our Lady or to a saint.
4. Theological and spiritual doctrines presented are free of error.
5. Moneymaking is not a motive involved in the events.
6. Healthy religious devotion and spiritual fruits result, with no evidence of collective hysteria.
Judgment can find that an apparition shows all signs of being an authentic or a truly miraculous intervention from heaven, that it is clearly not miraculous or there are not sufficient signs manifesting it to be be so, or that it’s not evident whether or not the alleged apparition is authentic.
If a Marian apparition is recognized by the bishop, it mSoeans that the message is not contrary to faith and morals and that Mary can be venerated in a special way at the site. But, because belief in a private revelation is not required by the church, Catholics are at liberty to decide how much personal spiritual emphasis to place on apparitions and the messages they deliver.
So, simply this is a dead issue. Then Bishop HAS spoken. Only the moneychangers continue it and the people are falling for it. Here is the Bishop in 2007.
“Bosnian bishop urges Medjugorje visionaries to stop claims
LONDON (CNS) — The bishop whose diocese includes the Bosnian village of Medjugorje has urged six alleged Marian visionaries to stop claiming that Mary has been visiting them for 25 years.
Bishop Ratko Peric of Mostar-Duvno, Bosnia-Herzegovina, said the church “has not accepted, either as supernatural or as Marian, any of the apparitions” said to have been witnessed by a group of people from Medjugorje.
“As the local bishop, I maintain that regarding the events of Medjugorje, on the basis of the investigations and experience gained thus far throughout these last 25 years, the church has not confirmed a single apparition as authentically being the Madonna,” he said. He then called on the alleged visionaries and “those persons behind the messages to demonstrate ecclesiastical obedience and to cease with these public manifestations and messages in this parish.”
“In this fashion they shall show their necessary adherence to the church, by placing neither private apparitions nor private sayings before the official position of the church,” he said.
“Our faith is a serious and responsible matter,” he added. “The church is also a serious and responsible institution.”
The bishop made his comments June 15 during a homily at a confirmation Mass in Medjugorje’s St. James Church. The diocese published the homily in English and Italian July 3.
On June 25, thousands of pilgrims converged on Medjugorje to mark the 25th anniversary of the onset of the alleged apparitions.
Marian experts continue to debate the significance of Medjugorje, and several have published books — ranging from enthusiastically supportive to skeptical — to coincide with the anniversary.
At the Vatican, officials said they are still monitoring events at Medjugorje, but emphasized that it was not necessarily the Vatican’s role to issue an official judgment on the alleged apparitions there.
More than once in recent years, the Vatican has said that dioceses or parishes should not organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje. That reflects the policy of the local bishops. But the Vatican has also said Catholics are free to travel to the site, and that if they do the church should provide them with pastoral services.
Since June 24-25, 1981, the alleged visionaries together claim to have received more than 30,000 messages.
But Bishop Peric said in his homily that “so-called apparitions, messages, secrets and signs do not strengthen the faith, but rather further convince us that in all of this there is nothing either authentic or established as truthful.”
He said in February that Pope Benedict XVI expressed similar doubts when they discussed Medjugorje during the Bosnian bishops’ visit to the Vatican.
Bishop Peric told the congregation that because the church did not accept the claims of the visionaries it was illicit for priests to “express their private views contrary to the official position” during Mass, in acts of popular piety or in the Catholic media.
He said Catholics were forbidden from making pilgrimages to Medjugorje if by such visits “they presuppose the authenticity of the apparitions or if by undertaking them attempt to certify these apparitions.”
Bishop Peric said his views, and those of his predecessor, Bishop Pavao Zanic, who was also opposed to the claims, were supported by the pope. He expressed appreciation to Popes Benedict and John Paul II, “who have always respected the judgments of the bishops of Mostar-Duvno, of the previous as well as the current bishop, regarding the so-called apparitions and messages of Medjugorje, all the while recognizing the Holy Father’s right to give a final decision on these events.”
He also warned his audience of a schism emerging in the region between the church and more than a dozen Franciscan brothers and priests who have been expelled by the generalate of the Order of Friars Minor in Rome because of their disobedience to the pope.
He said that the expelled Franciscans “have not only been illegally active in these parishes, but they have also administered the sacraments profanely ... or they have assisted at invalid marriages.”
Bishop Peric said he shared the view of Bishop Zanic that the visions and the Franciscan “schism,” which began under Pope Paul VI in the 1970s, are linked.
Throughout the 1980s, Franciscan Father Jozo Zovko acted as “spiritual adviser” to the visionaries.
But three church commissions failed to find evidence to support their claims, and in 1991 the bishops of the former Yugoslavia declared that “it cannot be affirmed that these matters concern supernatural apparitions or revelations.”
A short while later Father Zovko was stripped of his faculties to exercise any priestly functions by Bishop Zanic in a decree upheld by Bishop Peric.”
Promoting or believing in Medjugorje is the same as believing in Bayside. At this point, if anyone continues to believe this group, they might as well find a nice grilled cheese sandwich or oil smear. Same thing.
Two things strike me though, first that you used Padre Pio who obeyed his order unlike so many from this group of deceivers and that you used the term Gospa.
So many innocents have been led down this path, and their faith can come to risk as they learn the falsehoods that are its premise. So many parish priests from the US have brought pilgrimages to the site -- and they should know better. But the financial incentives are evidently too large to refuse. Sad, really.
Honestly, I never really cared about it. Then I joined the parish I am at now and got smacked with three things.
First, our very Holy Priest who gets very angry at the mention. He set me on the path of research. The quotes of the “Gospa” got me...
“All religions are equal before God,” says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317
“I do not dispose of all graces…Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary.” (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p.181, 277-278)
“God directs all denominations as a king directs his subjects, through the medium of his ministers” (”The Apparitions at Medjugorje,” by Fr. Svat Kraljevic, 1984, p.58)
“It is you who are divided on this earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, like the Catholics, are equal before my Son and before me, for you are all my children.” (Fr. Ljubic, p.71)
“The Madonna said that religious are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by her Son.” Ivanka Ivankovic (The Apparitions of Our Lady of Medjugorje, Francisco Herald Press, 1984)
Question: “Is the Blessed Mother calling all people to be Catholic?” Answer: “No. The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son.” Vicka Ivankovic. (The Visions of the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje, St. Martin’s Press, August, 1992)
(!!!!!!!)
Second, this witness
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=59439&highlight=Medjugorie
This lady is at our sister parish. I got to be friends with her.
Third, one of my dear friends, who is as Marian as you get, was invited to see one of the seers (sorry, can’t remember which one). This lady was EXCITED! She went and sat waiting. When the seer’s name was announced, my friend felt like she couldn’t breathe. Her husband took her out and every time she would try to go back in she would lose her breath. Not until the seer was finished, could she join her friends inside.
And she told no one of this until one day I told her of my feelings about this fraud. She gasped and told me that story. She said that she was afraid to mention it to people because of the cultish talk from other Catholics.
Was it her imagination? Maybe. But put it all together and something is not right with the whole thing.
It is a dead issue for the bishop but the bishop is not the Catholic Church, as Cardinal Bertone clearly states. The bishop has primary responsibility for what occurs in his diocese but history's and the Church's opinion of Medjugorje will not rest solely on his opinion.
If you're putting forward the argument that as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, the subject of Medjugorje is now closed, then that is entirely false. In the first place, the alleged apparitions are still ongoing and that in itself precludes any definitive ruling. The Church will never rule in favor of a series of apparitions until they can be examined in toto.
Here is a summary of what the Church has forbidden and what it permits.
What the Church has forbidden
From the statements given to date by ecclesiastical authorities it is clear that no one holding an office in the Church (bishop, pastor, rector, chaplain or other) may by virtue of that office lend official sanction to activities which tend to assert the supernaturality of Medjugorje, that is, to contradict the decisions made by competent local authority. Those statements speak only of pilgrimages organized under official auspices; however, common sense tells us that a conference or other activity sponsored by a diocese, parish or other Catholic institution would also be prohibited. Likewise, there could not be public veneration of the Blessed Virgin under the title of Our Lady of Medjugorje, since this would suggest the certainty of her appearing there. The title Queen of Peace, however, is already part of the patrimony of the Church.
The Yugoslavian statement speaks of liturgical-pastoral directives which may be developed. Catholics would be obliged to obey whatever positive or negative directives the Bishops' Conference or the local bishop issued regarding the site.
Do the decisions of the Church amount to an obligation to believe in the intellect that Medjugorje is not supernatural? The answer is no. First, even private revelations approved by Rome bind the faithful to accept them only based upon reasonableness, not faith. Pope Benedict XIV stated,
Although an assent of Catholic faith may not be given to revelations thus approved, still, an assent of human faith, made according to the rules of prudence, is due them; for according to these rules such revelations are probable and worthy of pious credence. [Benedict XIV, De Serv. Dei Beatif.]
This means that once a private revelation has achieved Papal approbation it is unreasonable, i.e. imprudent but not against the faith, to not accept it as authentic. The contrary would also be true. If Rome judged a private revelation to not be supernatural, the reasonable person would be satisfied with that conclusion. Would they sin if they did not accept it? They might sin by imprudence, rash judgement or the like, but not against the faith or the obedience they owed the Holy Father. Catholics must always, however, following the external precepts imposed by the Church in such matters, that is, what they may or may not do, as opposed to what they think.
As far as theological judgements made at the local level, therefore, the standard could not be any higher, and is certainly lower. The issue of Medjugorje, therefore, cannot be resolved solely on the basis of the local Church's finding that there is no evidence to date of supernaturality. This is even more clear in light of the statement of Archbishop Bertone that the Bishop of Mostar's 1998 statement that it is certainly "not supernatural" is his own personal opinion. Others are therefore entitled to their personal opinions, also.
What the Church Permits
As the already cited statements note, Catholics may go to Medjugorje. Such pilgrimages may even include priests acting as chaplains, as opposed to officially sponsoring them. Also, the Church has not suppressed discussion of Medjugorje, therefore, it is allowed. Common sense, however, says that Catholics on both sides of the Medjugorje issue should exercise prudence and charity in speaking of others who believe differently. Medjugorje is not a litmus test of orthodoxy, though every Catholic will have a moral obligation to accept the judgement of Rome, in the manner Pope Benedict explained, should it ever be rendered.
Whether a judgment will ever be rendered is uncertain. The Church has never spoken officially on Garabandal, for instance, even though the local ordinaries have repeatedly condemned it. However, I find it hard to believe that the Church will never issue a definitive statement on an event which has continued for over a quarter of a century and has produced thousands of messages and apparitions.
Disclaimer: I am not a supporter of Medjugorje nor do I wish to promote it as authentic. There are many, many question marks over it.
I do however, wish to refute the argument that the present Bishop of Mostar's position renders all future study of the apparitions moot and is the Church's final word.
It aint.
I'm about all talked out on this one.
Aw geez.
>>I do however, wish to refute the argument that the present Bishop of Mostar’s position renders all future study of the apparitions moot and is the Church’s final word.
It aint<<
Read the rules again about rulings on apparitions.
Yeah, he is.
In the end, he is.
NO other apparition was ruled supernatural without the local Bishop approving it first. NONE and no other apparition has NOT had something supernatural besides “the messages” happen. Not a one.
Sorry Marshmallow, we are in agreement about most things but in this, your Gospa is showing.
Then why did you post, (#22) an article which states "SURPRISE FROM VATICAN - HOLY SEE IS TAKING THE MEDJUGORJE PHENOMENON INTO THEIR OWN HANDS" The Church has decided to studiously review the events at Medjugorje and a new Commission will decide.
Thanls for supporting my argument. If the bishop has spoken and it's a done deal, what's to review? Why a new commission? That's my point. That's my entire point. The final word on Medjugorje has not been spoken. That's all I'm saying..........you're best efforts to paint me as a Medjugorje supporter with an agenda, notwithstanding.
OK, I know I said I was talked out but I have one question. A one word answer will suffice.
Is it your position that no present nor future Pope, nor any Sacred Congregation may render any statement or judgment concerning the Medjugorje issue, if and when the alleged apparitions cease?
"My Gospa is showing"? The only thing I see showing is your determination that all debate about Medjugorje has to cease, when Cardinal Bertone and the Vatican and the Jugoslav bishops are saying the opposite.
>>Is it your position that no present nor future Pope, nor any Sacred Congregation may render any statement or judgment concerning the Medjugorje issue, if and when the alleged apparitions cease? <<
Nope, never said that.
I said the case, while being reviewed, rests on the Bishop of the area.
He already said nothing supernatural so, while the Medjugore Kool-Aid drinkers continue to find the crack they can slip into, the Vatican knows better.
It’s like the Orans position by the laity. The GIRM never gives instructions for the laity to use the “Arms Extended” position. Yet, the words from the supporters are, “They never said we couldn’t” Well that’s not the way it works and now this cult is saying the same thing.
Okey doke.........."while being reviewed" seems considerably different from "the issue is closed", but whatever......
I'm in agreement.
And so am I.
I toast you with my third cup of coffee, my FRiend! Cheers from one fellow Catholic to another!
Now, how about that Sarah Palin.....
The human authors of Scripture were infallible. (Technically, they were in fact more than merely infallible; they were inspired, which is a higher degree of protection.)
"Infallible" simply means that one is prevented from teaching error. (It's a negative claim; "not teaching anything" qualifies as "not teaching error".)
If you believe that Scripture is inerrant, then by definition you believe that every one of the human authors of the Bible taught infallibly when they actually wrote those books of Scripture.
I’m only surprised the main stream media hasn’t accused
Sarah Palin of ‘the diffusion of dubious doctrine, manipulation of consciences, suspected mysticism and disobedience towards legitimately issued orders’, and is suspected of heresy and schism, yet.
Quick, someone call Olberman!
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