Posted on 09/07/2008 12:21:07 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953
Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?"
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
Jesus said to pray to God; works for me.....
So...you never said a Hail Mary?
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1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25).
With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son?
Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
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. . . AHHHHHHH . . . what need?
The political power-mongering "need" on the part of the bureaucratic magicsterical to demote The Son; The Spirit . . . in behalf of exalting the earth-mother/Mary Caricature/Goddess/Queen of Heaven blasphemous image/construct/fantasy.
The Mary Caricature . . . about which and over which the magicsterical has full control--can be manipulated to any ends imaginable for purely political, bureaucratic, power-mongering, financial . . . whatever "needs."
Besides, it seductively fills that foundational human "need" to be "in charge of . . . " "in !!!!CONTROL!!!! of"
each individual's own RELIGIOSITY--DESTINY--SALVATION. !!!!CONTROL!!!! All the 2 year old mommy manipulators LOVE IT.
Coo just right; wail just right; look goo-goo eyes just right; adore just right; snuggle just right; . . . and the cookie's yours! From THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN, no less. [Barf.]
Clever idea.
. . . from the pit.
bookmark
Before Rome was Christian it was common to pray to lessor gods to intercede with greater gods.
Roman Catholics simply replaced Venus with St. Valentine.
No offense, but the "artical" is hard to take seriously.
It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them.
Why "saints or Mary"? Mary is a saint. And what source does the author have for saying what our "official position" is? I personally have no problem saying that I pray to saints and angels as well as to God. They're all personal beings, and prayer is a form of request.
Heck, I pray to my cat, Clint Junior Lightning, who is probably more in the demon category, as in, "Would you puhLEEZE remove your claws from my toe! It's three in the morning!"
Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God.
Catholics view all Christians as intercessors before God.
They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly.
Source? "Official" source? That is practically a cartoonish or nursery school depiction of what I think, so imprecise as to be virtually useless for any serious discussion. It is taking one inadequate metaphor, often used for those not theologically inclined, and blowing it up into an argument.
Ah, the old I Tim 2:5 argument. I haven't seen that in, wow, it must be minutes, maybe even hours! How time flies!
In the normal or garden variety use of the word intercessor or mediator, anyone who asks something on someone else's behalf. In the normal use of words, therefore if Paul, also in the Timothy correspondence, directs us to make supplications, prayers, intercessions (koff koff), and thanksgivings for all men shall we conclude that Paul is contradicting himself? Or shall we rather look into one theme of Paul's discourse, that of being members of Christ and "in" Christ, and wonder if the head of a body normally acts alone, or if in an integrated person the body does what the head directs?
However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching.
It would have been more fruitful and less controversial to stay here. Yes, the thoughts and practices of some Catholics are superstitious and erroneous.
Oh no -- not the "need" argument! Clearly the work of the Son and the intercession of the 2nd and 3rd persons of the Trinity is all we "need". So why does Paul tell us to make supplications and the rest? Maybe it's not about "need"? Maybe it's about being members of the one intercessor -- and acting like it? Something in that neighborhood? Is your side opposed to the asking for prayers threads which appear on FR? I mean what is the "need"?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim.
Let us indeed. Actually this Catholic would claim that praying to the saints, among whom he considers the Mother of God to be preeminent though not different in kind, is not importantly different from asking someone on earth to pray for us. The Bible does not say 2+2=4, but we are allowed to use our heads.
The omniscient argument! I greet it affectionately as I would an old and disreputable, but still endearing, neighborhood drunk!
Look: Even in his evidently rapidly advancing dotage, Ahnold the Gubernator is stronger than I, and richer than I. By the reasoning presented here, I am saying he possesses all strength and all wealth. If we say the saints in heaven have something more than we, how does it follow that they have it all?
As to the wizened and bewhiskered necromancy argument, we Catholics think something happened on Easter Weekend approximately 1970 years, give or take, ago. And what the witch of Endor did with Samuel is as different from what we do with saints is as different as rape is from wooing.
There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone.
So there is no Biblical basis for the threads on Free Republic which ask Freepers to pray for someone? Paul is wrong to ask for the prayers of the Ephesians? This is an example of what I mean by saying it's hard to take this seriously. The point under contention is whether there is some basis or "need" for asking the saints in heaven for their prayers, isn't it? Why not stick to that point? Instead in the peroration this "artical" says there's no basis or need to ask for anyone's prayers, which is plainly contradicted by Paul's own words.
As for "Biblical", we find in the Bible promises that God makes to His Church. For us, that's enough. I try, I do not always succeed, not to pick and choose which of God's promises I will stake my life and thought on.
The article blends erroneous practices with "official" teaching, which it declares but does not support with citations. It confuses MORE power with ALL power. It is ludicrously imprecise, saying here there is no Biblical basis to ask ANYONE for prayers and giving there the very citation of Paul's asking for prayers. It takes analogies and images as theological arguments. It confuses the necromantic compelling of shades with prayerful petition of those who live to God. In general it sends out a sledge hammer to do a scalpel's job. There is a significant difference in our thought. This article fails to present it, IMHO.
There is one type of post on Freerepublic I find it hard to ignore and that is a Prayer Request (and, especially, an Urgent Prayer Request). If we can freely ask for the prayers of our fellow mortals, why can we not ask them of the saints?
Knowing, therefore, what "queen" means, I salute the Queen of Heaven, the Mother of the Lord of Heaven and Earth by whom was not anything made that was made.
Is the title and the "cult" capable of perversion? Clearly. Water can be polluted. That some water is impure does not keep me, by the gracious gifts (or charisms) of God, from drinking pure water. That some who salute the Queen of Heaven do so wrongly, even disastrously, does not keep me from saluting her.
Oh, but maybe I am out of place here. This, evidently is not about reasoned discussion between brethren but about some other activity.
Well, that reason and discussion can be perverted is no reason to abandon them. Since all wisdom comes from God, clearly there is no "need" to look for it in these discussions, right?
We have a direct line to God, we should pray directly to him only. How can Mary and the other saints pray for us when they are asleep in Christ?
Neither is relying on a book to establish Christian faith and practice, but Catholic critics never seem interested in that fact.
Why not go all the way and replace Christ with the fisher-king myth?
That’s it - keep it up. Protestants and Catholics fighting. The Muslim Moon God worshippers LOVE it.
I think that biblical justification for asking the intercession of Mary comes from the wedding at Canna. The servants told Mary they were out of wine and Mary went to Jesus and told him. Christ then performed a miracle (water to wine) after Mary told the servants to “do whatever he tells you” If Christ listened to his earthly mother and honored her request (as the law—Honor you father and your mother) doesn’t it stand to reason that Christ would still revere her and would want us to do the same?
Reverence is different from praying to or worshipping.
Also on the matter of praying for the intercession of saints
I can only offer anecdotal evidence on my part about the intercession of saints—yes I pray to Jesus often but sometimes when there is a special need I ask for the intercession of a saint. Often times it is none other than Saint Anthony—patron of lost items but I have been known to ask St. Joseph’s intercession (fathers and heads of household, Job seekers and workers) When a particular prayer is answered favorably—or not I thank the Lord first then the particular saint who I believe assisted me in my petition.
All I know is that more often than not this seems to work
My sister explained that the situation is something like this: Saints died in the grace of God and are assumed to be in heaven—that is they are sons of the Father and Christ’s brothers/sisters through baptism If they are Christ’s brothers and sisters would he not want us to know his family ? as he hopes that we will someday join in heavenly communion with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all the choirs of angels and others who died in a state of grace and are now with him in heaven?
JM2B, take it for what it is worth..:)
Because I don't know if it is true or not. I do know that household gods played an important role in pagan Rome and I have personally seen saints used in exactly the same way by Roman Catholics. My father-in-law misplaced his wallet and my Mother-in-law prayed to Saint Anthony of Padua, the "patron saint of lost items" and shazzam! the next time she came up the stairs, she saw the wallet under the bed!. This attribution of a specific sphere of influence for a lessor god is typical of paganism. Hindus pray to Ganesh (the one that Homer Simpson gave a peanut to) for success in business, for example.
“And the Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come’, and let him that heareth say, ‘Come’, and let him that is athirst come, and whosever will, let him take the water of life freely.” -—Revelation 22:17.
Who cares what Protestants believe? If they do not want a relationship with the Elect, that’s their call.
Good morning,
We are to pray to God the father, not God the mother. I am just trying to get a better understanding of why catholics pray to Mary. Mary was a woman that was highly favored, but even Jesus prayed to God, not to his mother.
Nope. Dirtnap. Sound of the trumpet... too bad...
“Who cares what Protestants believe? If they do not want a relationship with the Elect, that’s their call.”
Hey, why are you dragging the Mormons into this?
C'mon, it's more than that and you guys know it...You guys don't just ask your Saints and Mary to pray for you...You pray to these Saints...You ask these Saints and Mary to answer your prayers...You ask Mary to give you mercy and grace...You ask your Saints to protect you while driving your car, or find your car keys...
You pray to these Saints and ask them to give you everything from no cavities in your teeth to making sure you put on a matching pair of shoes each morning...
This has been well documented and posted on FR countless times...
You bow down to and call a human sinner 'Holy Father'...What exactly do you mean when you say that???
In John 17:22-26, it is revealed that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ prayed to the Father that glory which the Father had given to the Son, had been given to those who believe in Him, so that we as believers in Him are one, just as the Son and Father are one.
This touches upon the doctrine of the indwelling of Jesus Christ in every believer during the Church Age.
In Col 1:25-29, Paul reflects he is made a minister to fulfill the word of God, even the mystery not previously shown in any of the Old Testament, regarding the indwelling of Christ in us, which is the hope in reference to glory (as in the Shekinah glory in the OT).
Each of us, through faith in Christ, are members of that royal family, with more power available to us than any other time in human history. It doesn’t come through faith in Mary, that she might approach the Son, rather it comes through faith in Christ, thereby affording a direct line of communication to God the Father, which is intercessed by the Son and spoken by the Holy Spirit in unfathomable moanings.
The legitimate authority we are to respect is that of the Son and the Father while walking with Him, giving control of ourselves via God the Holy Spirit.
All things may be possible, but not profitable in our actions through faith in Him. Placing another intermediary between ourselves and Christ is not fulfilling His intent, but does run risk of encouraging some to misdirect their faith in another person prior to Christ, thereby removing he believer out of fellowship with God.
You wrote:
“There’s nothing in Scripture that remotely suggests the dead can talk on behalf of us in any form.”
Really?
Revelation 5:8
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 8:3
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Revelation 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.
Revelation 20:4
[ The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years ] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Seems to me that the saints pray in heaven constantly (as we saints on earth are supposed to) and will reign with Christ. What do you think they’re praying about all that time? If they reign with Christ and will judge with Him, then they must know about us and what we’re doing.
Um, I thought they were asking for prayer from saints (their fellow mortal believers.)
I think you meant “article.”
Intercession is Biblical.
Who was the first person who asked Jesus to do something extraordinary?
Hint: Wedding of Cana
She told those around her: “Do whatever He tells you.”
Mary was the first intercessor; she interceded for bride and groom who were out of wine.
BTW, those are the last words of Mary in the Bible. So we should also listen.
“Do whatever he tells you.” She points away from herself directly to her Son, Jesus Christ, true man and true God.
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Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
As I’ve noted, Bro,
i no longer have great spiritual concerns about
the attitude of your heart toward God because of Mary.
I’m not even totally sure why. It just seemed at some point, The Lord said you Loved Him above all else and that He’d work out the details concerning you.
That was enough for me.
There are those, however, for whom the INSTITUTIONAL STUFF vis a vis Mary is a very hazardous, even destructive, yellow brick spiritual road.
I suspect that somewhere in your experience, you have even observed such.
BTW. who said RELIGIOUS discussion was ever reasonable!
I don’t mind considering that
“Today you shall be with me in Paradise” meant in every fully conscious sense.
And, there have been plenty of Heavenly visitations, such as Joya has linked to, which clearly indicate that folks are busy about the Master’s business there—worshiping, teaching aborted infants who are growing in the knowledge of The Lord, etc.
None of such visitations I’ve EVER read has included any hint of Mary doing anything else but the standard sorts of things a graduated Christian believers would do. No special office; no special duties; no special honors—certainly no QUEEN OF HEAVENSHIP.
And most certainly not listening to, screening and prioritizing prayers for The Father’s consideration. What blasphemy that would be!
INDEED.
INDEED.
If you say that, I suppose you’re using one of those redacted bibles.
I don’t know whether or not saints in Heaven can intercede for me (or hear my request). I know that my buddy can hear me and can say a prayer for me, so I ask him. And just once - he hears me and gets it the first time, and I trust he does it. And I make sure to pray for him to.
If Mary can hear requests to “pray for us sinners,” she is getting billions of such requests a day, making for a somewhat long “to do” list. So my question is, how much more praying can she do that she is not doing already?
pray for him to = pray for him too
Spelling police, pray for me.
Good point. Certainly most of the data is on your side!
In my case,
I can always claim I had great motherly training in “unreasonable.”
LOL.
But seriously, while the argument has a certain rhetorical force, it's not conclusive. The pagans were wrong, and those they thought were gods weren't. They prayed to a Father god. Shall we stop saying "Our Father?"
And are you saying that prayers for the prayers of St. Anthony should not be done because they are effective somehow? I mean look at what you said. She prayed to Anthony and found the wallet. You say that like it's a bad thing. You're old enough to know exactly what they did in pagan Rome and you don't lose stuff? Now THAT's a miracle!
Why would God allow such deceptions to take place. The number of stories of prayers to St. Anthony is so great that they are a commonplace among devout Catholics. I nearly always pray to Anthony and when I do I nearly always find what I'm looking for right away. Then I thank God for helping me and St. Anthony for the help of his prayers. Then I hit my head for being such a dunce as to lose my wallet or whatever for the 45th time that day. If it weren't for Anthony's intercession I'd probably only be able to drive my car once a week.
As to how much more praying can she do, I really like that question. It reminds me, somehow, of the 'orrible brat child calling last week to ask why Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done. "I mean, it's gonna be done anyway ...."
It seems to me that all Spirit- enabled, -assisted -whatever prayer sooner or later comes down to asking God that His will be done and asking Him to help us mean that. And that comes down to asking God to unite our wills with His. I suspect that somewhere in that process we quit counting our prayers.
This makes me want to propose the first annual Free Republic Religious Wars Cream Puff Derby. Wouldn't it be cool if we could get everyone a sack of about a dozen cream puffs and then line up the Prots etc on one side and the RC's etc on the other and the only rules were no leaving your place and you must have thrown all your cream puffs in 60 seconds?
Hey, what are y'all doing next June?
Have you ever buried St. Joseph upside down in the yard of a home you want to sell?
Ahhhhhhhhhhh
death by sugar! LOL.
Sounds like fun.
. . . as long as a water hose or shower is nearby! LOL.
I still have enough lingering OCD that I don’t do ‘sticky’ real well.
LOL.
Prayers for your efforts this Lord’s Day.
You don't know if the tradition of praying to saints came about as you claim either, but that doesn't stop you from misrepresenting your speculation.
Why?
"957...Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"
How is this any different than necromancy? "Communing with the dead?" Astounding paganism under the cover of theology. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)
958 - Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."498 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
Catch that? By praying to and for dead people, we can not only help get them out of purgatory sooner and into heaven quicker, but we are praying in our own self-interest because our prayers actually make "their intercession for us effective"!?!
"957...Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"
How is this any different than necromancy? "Communing with the dead?" Astounding paganism under the cover of theology. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12)
958 - Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."498 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
Catch that? By praying to and for dead people, we can not only help get them out of purgatory sooner and into heaven quicker, but we are praying in our own self-interest because our prayers actually make "their intercession for us effective"!?!
Amen.
From a recent FR thread, this link was posted wherein we learn that among the many titles given to Mary by the RCC ("Co-redeemer," "Mediatrix," "Dispensatrix of all Grace," "Mother of the Church," Mother of us All," etc.) she is now considered to be "Queen of the Universe."
" Most holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day. I venerate thee, great Queen, and I thank thee for the many graces thou hast bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins. I love thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear thee, I promise to serve thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make thee loved by others also. I place in thee all my hopes for salvation; accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle, thou who art the Mother of mercy. And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death. From thee I implore a true love for Jesus Christ. Through thee I hope to die a holy death. My dear Mother, by the love thou bearest to Almighty God, I pray thee to assist me always, but most of all at the last moment of my life. Forsake me not then, until thou shalt see me safe in heaven, there to bless thee and sing of thy mercies through all eternity. Such is my hope. Amen. (St. Alphonsus Liguori, The Blessed Virgin Mary, Rockford, Illinois: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., 1982, p. 4.
Roman Catholics are instructed to "place all their hopes for salvation" in Mary?!?
Roman Catholics believe Mary "delivers them from hell?!?"
Romans Catholics "serve Mary?!?"
Roman Catholics believe Mary "delivers them from all temptation?!?"
Roman Catholics believe men die "a holy death through Mary?!?"
It all just goes to show the power of persuasion, that some cannot admit 'is there not a lie in my right hand.'
He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire: And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:15-20"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
I live in the great, vast Communion of the Saints. For this same reason I will have a Joyful Mass of the Ressurection and not a funeral service for we live in Christ for eternity. No one has ever died; the body yes, and only for a little while, the soul never.
Praying to the Saints
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
“No Contact with the dead”
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
“How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
“Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
“How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?” (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
“Directly to Jesus”
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. “Why not pray directly to Jesus?” they ask.
The answer is: “Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Paragraph 5. THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS
946 After confessing "the holy catholic Church," the Apostles' Creed adds "the communion of saints." In a certain sense this article is a further explanation of the preceding: "What is the Church if not the assembly of all the saints?"477 The communion of saints is the Church.
947 "Since all the faithful form one body, the good of each is communicated to the others.... We must therefore believe that there exists a communion of goods in the Church. But the most important member is Christ, since he is the head.... Therefore, the riches of Christ are communicated to all the members, through the sacraments."478 "As this Church is governed by one and the same Spirit, all the goods she has received necessarily become a common fund."479
948 The term "communion of saints" therefore has two closely linked meanings: communion in holy things (sancta)" and "among holy persons (sancti).
"Sancta sancti's! ("God's holy gifts for God's holy people") is proclaimed by the celebrant in most Eastern liturgies during the elevation of the holy Gifts before the distribution of communion. the faithful (sancta) are fed by Christ's holy body and blood (sancta) to grow in the communion of the Holy Spirit (koinonia) and to communicate it to the world.
I. COMMUNION IN SPIRITUAL GOODS
949 In the primitive community of Jerusalem, the disciples "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of the bread and the prayers."480
Communion in the faith. the faith of the faithful is the faith of the Church, received from the apostles. Faith is a treasure of life which is enriched by being shared.
950 Communion of the sacraments. "The fruit of all the sacraments belongs to all the faithful. All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church. the communion of saints must be understood as the communion of the sacraments.... the name 'communion' can be applied to all of them, for they unite us to God.... But this name is better suited to the Eucharist than to any other, because it is primarily the Eucharist that brings this communion about."481
951 Communion of charisms. Within the communion of the Church, the Holy Spirit "distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank" for the building up of the Church.482 Now, "to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good."483
952 "They had everything in common."484 "Everything the true Christian has is to be regarded as a good possessed in common with everyone else. All Christians should be ready and eager to come to the help of the needy . . . and of their neighbors in want."485 A Christian is a steward of the Lord's goods.486
953 Communion in charity. In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."487 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."488 "Charity does not insist on its own way."489 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion.
II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH
954 The three states of the Church. "When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"':490
All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbours, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.491
955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."492
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."493
Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.494
I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.495
957 Communion with the saints. "It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"496:
We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!497
958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."498 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."499
IN BRIEF
960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all the Eucharist, by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).
961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of "holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.
962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG # 30).
477 Nicetas, Expl. Symb., 10: PL 52:871B.
478 St. Thomas Aquinas, Symb., 10.
479 Roman Catechism I, 10, 24.
480 Acts 2:42.
481 Roman Catechism 1, 10, 24.
482 LG 12 # 2.
483 1 Cor 12:7.
484 Acts 4:32.
485 Roman Catechism 1, 10, 27.
486 Cf. Lk 16:1, 3.
487 Rom 14:7.
488 1 Cor 12:26-27.
489 1 Cor 13:5; cf. 10:24.
490 LG 49; cf. Mt 25:31; 1 Cor 15:26-27; Council of Florence (1439): DS 1305.
491 LG 49; cf. Eph 4:16.
492 LG 49.
493 LG 49; cf. 1 Tim 2:5.
494 St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers.
495 St. Therese of Lisieux, the Final Conversations, tr. John Clarke
(Washington: ICS, 1977), 102.
496 LG 50; cf. Eph 4:1-6.
497 Martyrium Polycarpi, 17: Apostolic Fathers II/3, 396.
498 LG 50; cf. 2 Macc 12:45.
499 LG 51; d. Heb 3:6.
I chose to address the sentences I posted. The "context" makes no difference to this discussion; it only serves to further condemn the RCC.
It's been a common pattern among Catholics that when they can't refute the point being made, they simply yell "context" and then heap on more inane paragraphs.
Post whatever you like. You have refuted nothing. Put into context, out of context, within the entire 900 pages of the catechism as context, whatever you want. The sentences are still blasphemy to the Triune God. And anyone reading those words with eyes and ears from God will know exactly how far they stray from Scripture.
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." -- Matthew 12:37
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