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Do Christians Go Directly To Heaven At Death? Who Is In Heaven Now?
http://www.byfaithnoah.com ^ | 2008 | Catherine

Posted on 09/07/2008 7:43:46 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953

There are some who argue Christians go directly to heaven when they die. They say Hades was broken up at the resurrection of Christ; Paradise was transported to heaven, and now only the wicked go to Hades to await the resurrection. If this seems strange to you, there is good reason--the Bible does not teach it.

The statements of the Lord in reference to the rich man and Lazarus ought to settle the matter. He said the wicked go to torments, the righteous to Abraham's bosom, and they are separated by a great, impassable gulf (Lk. 16:19-31). But, again, some say Hades was torn apart at the resurrection of Christ. The Bible says Hades will give up the dead at the judgment (Rev. 20:11-14).

Moreover, Jesus said, When you give a dinner or a supper, do not ask your friends, your brothers, your relatives, nor rich neighbors, lest they also invite you back, and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just (Lk. 14:12-14). Repayment, reward, is given at the resurrection. When will the resurrection take place? When a person dies or when the Lord returns? Obviously, when the Lord returns (1 Cor. 15:20-24). This cannot be answered by those who believe Christians go directly to heaven at death. Further evidence of this comes from Paul. He said, For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing (2 Tim. 4:6-8).

The crown of righteousness, the crown of life, the incorruptible crown for which we strive, will be given "on that Day," at "His appearing," not before (1 Cor. 9:24-27).  "I charge you therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" (2 Timothy 4:1) If the judgment is to be at his appearing, then no one will be allowed into heaven until that day. Paul said, "Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (2 Thes. 1:6-7). "Rest" will be given to the faithful child of God "when the Lord Jesus is revealed." That is the second coming, "when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed" (2 Thes. 1:10).

The Lord will not be revealed before "that Day." Peter also teaches that eternal salvation is not enjoyed until the judgment. He said there is "an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:4-5). "Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully on the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 1:13).

Finally, hear Peter on Pentecost: "For David did not ascend into the heavens..." (Acts 2:34). This is true even though Christ came forth from the grave and ascended into heaven. Those who say Christ's resurrection broke up the Hadean world, and that He took Paradise with Him to heaven, contradict the words of Peter. David, no doubt in Paradise, is not in heaven. The idea that Hades is broken, that Jesus took Paradise with Him to heaven, is pure fantasy. There is no evidence in the book of God for it. That is why it sounds so strange to our ears.

We want to examine two passages used to advocate the idea that Christians are now in heaven. First, Paul said, "For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better" (Phil. 1:23). It is argued that Paul said he would be with Christ when he died. Well, the Hebrew writer said, "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27). Does this mean we face the judgment individually at the time we die? Will there be billions of days of judgment? No. There is one judgment day (cf. Jn. 5:28-29). This passage simply gives a summary about what will happen, death then judgment (they are sure to come). Likewise, Paul mentions he will be with Christ after death. Second, Paul said, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus" (1 Thes. 4:14). It is pointed out that this means "those who sleep in Jesus" are in heaven with Jesus and will come back with Him on the last day. Why, then, will they come back if they are already in heaven? All this says is that those who are dead in Christ will come back when Christ does. He will bring them out of the Hadean world, give them a new body fit for eternity (cf. Jn. 5:28-29; 1 Cor. 15:42-54). Do Christians go directly to heaven when they die? No. They go to Hades, to "Abraham's bosom" and await the resurrection of the dead (Lk. 16:19-31; Jn. 5:28-29).


TOPICS: Apologetics
KEYWORDS: heaven; yopios
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Up for consideration and discussion.
1 posted on 09/07/2008 7:43:46 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953
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To: guitarplayer1953

I’ll get right on it.


2 posted on 09/07/2008 7:51:45 PM PDT by shineon
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To: guitarplayer1953
I'm not going to read the whole thing. Just that the Bible says,

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

First Thessalonians, Chapter 4, KJV

Rather difficult to rise from the dead to meet Christ, if one is already in heaven.

Note: reasons I'm quoting the KJV is because it's in the public domain and that's the version I memorized once.

3 posted on 09/07/2008 7:52:32 PM PDT by madison10 (Pray for McCains, Palins and the USA...and the rest of us, too.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Prior to the coming of Christ and dying on the cross for our sins there was that “gulf”. After Christ rose from the dead then there was a heaven and hell for sinners. Heaven was there prior to Christ dying for us but none of us were worthy of heaven till He came and paid our price.

In the New Testament this verse should suffice:

2Cor.5:

[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When you die you are present with the Lord. The assumption is that you are a believer. The converse is true as well. If you are NOT a believer then you will NOT be present with the Lord - hell will be your destination . There is nothing in between.


4 posted on 09/07/2008 7:53:16 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: guitarplayer1953
There are some who argue Christians go directly to heaven when they die.

If that's true.....then what would be the necessity of a resurrection?

There is no scripture that says one goes anywhere....but the grave after death. There are a multitude of scriptures that speak of a resurrection.

5 posted on 09/07/2008 7:54:13 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: madison10

YOur soul or spirit goes to heaven. Your body like Christs is resurrected and united with your soul/spirit. THAT is what that refers to.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


6 posted on 09/07/2008 7:54:56 PM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: guitarplayer1953
1Ti 6:14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
1Ti 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

7 posted on 09/07/2008 7:58:30 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: guitarplayer1953
No. They go to Hades, to "Abraham's bosom" and await the resurrection of the dead

Will waiting 1000 years feel different than waiting only 10 days? Will there be a "real" consciousness of time without physically experience the rising of the sun in the morning, and the setting of the sun in the evening? Will being in a "spiritual" state as opposed to a "physical" state relieve us from the pressure of time, kind of like "transcending time"? Will a thousand years feel like a day? What will "awaiting the resurrection" consist of? Will we eat? Will we sleep? Partially or constantly? Will we be able to travel in this area called "Abraham's Bosom"? If not, who were those really at the Mount of Transfiguration and where did they come from? Will the Lord be in Hades with Abraham in Abraham's bosom? What does "absent from the body, present with the Lord" mean?

Don't have an opinion in this area. Just some more questions to raise concerning the topic. For me it doesn't matter. Either way, I know where I am going.

8 posted on 09/07/2008 8:08:27 PM PDT by uptoolate (I will be voting for a real conservative)
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To: guitarplayer1953
When will the resurrection take place? When a person dies or when the Lord returns? Obviously, when the Lord returns (1 Cor. 15:20-24). This cannot be answered by those who believe Christians go directly to heaven at death.

A preterist sees this whole discussion in a different light. I agree with all of the arguments here, with the exception that they only apply to the time between Christ's life on Earth and the Day of the Lord - the Judgment, the Resurrection, the "Second Coming" - which occurred in 70 AD. At that time Hades *was* destroyed, and since then the answer to the question discussed here has been "yes" - Christians go directly to heaven when they die.

For a futurist - i.e. a premillennialist, postmillennialist, or amillennialist - the arguments here are valid, and there is no consistent way to argue that Christians go straight to heaven at death, even though most futurists believe this.

9 posted on 09/07/2008 8:23:35 PM PDT by xjcsa (McWhatshisname-Palin 2008)
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To: uptoolate
Those who were at the mount was Moses and Elijah. both of whom physically went to heaven.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

2nd Kings 00029 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Read your bible and learn.

10 posted on 09/07/2008 8:30:21 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Read your bible and learn.

This a gentle, tactful suggestion, or blatant arrogant sin? Hard to tell. The typed word carries no intonation.

11 posted on 09/07/2008 8:46:08 PM PDT by uptoolate (I will be voting for a real conservative, and she just arrived)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Simple question. Not-so-simple answer. I think I am mostly with Darby on this. John Nelson Darby

"I am one of the old-fashioned people who believe the doctrine of the Millennium and that there will be two distinct resurrections of the dead-first, of the just; second, of the unjust; which last resurrection will not commence till one thousand years after the resurrection of the elect. In this glorious interval of one thousand years Christ will reign in Person over the kingdom of the just."

12 posted on 09/07/2008 8:46:39 PM PDT by smokingfrog (He that lives upon hope will die fasting. - Ben Franklin)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Paul said, "For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better" (Phil. 1:23). It is argued that Paul said he would be with Christ when he died.

Being a trained Hebrew Scholar and Lawyer, Paul knew this: [Ecclesiastes 3:19] For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. He also knew this: [Psalms 146:3-4] Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. And......[Ecclesiastes 9:5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Being a Christian, Paul knew this: [John 5:25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He also knew this: [John 5:28-29] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. ......And this: Paul knew that at the time of death his thoughts would perish and he would have no memory of time passing. Paul knew that the very next instant after he closed his eyes in death.....they would be reopened in the resurrection....and he would be with his Saviour. He probably did not realize that thousands of years would go by as most of the Apostles believed Our Saviour's return would be much sooner. Notice the reference in [Thessalonians 4:16-17] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Think about it..........If souls were already in heaven from the time they died.....then why should Our Saviour come back at all? Why should these souls in heaven be placed back into their old decayed bodies and resurrected. Then the whole process of going to heaven starts all over again??????

13 posted on 09/07/2008 8:47:01 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: Diego1618

The necessity for the ressurection is to regenerate your physical body and return your soul to it. That is how we were created. At death the soul leaves the physical body. Resurrection puts things back the way they are supposed to be. Death and the grave have no victory over us.


14 posted on 09/07/2008 8:57:07 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Paul, 2nd Corinthians letter. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.


15 posted on 09/07/2008 8:58:46 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: smokingfrog

So where does Darby think the just are?


16 posted on 09/07/2008 9:00:23 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: Diego1618
Think about it..........If souls were already in heaven from the time they died.....then why should Our Saviour come back at all? Why should these souls in heaven be placed back into their old decayed bodies and resurrected. Then the whole process of going to heaven starts all over again??????

These sentences have totally shot out of the water everything you attempted to say previously. Did you come out of a Jehovah Witness background?

Remember that Jesus said that God was not the God of the dead, but of the living. He also said that he who lives and believes in him, even if he were dead, shall never die. The author of Hebrews talks about the New Jerusalem peopled with the spirits of just men made perfect. Jesus said to the thief that the thief would be with him in paradise that day. Jesus also related the story of Lazarus and the rich man which clearly presupposed a consciousness continuing after death. Jesus was observed by Peter, James, and John talking to Moses and Elijah during the mountaintop transformation.

The point of the resurrection is not the reinhabiting of decayed bodies but the restoration of the believing dead to transformed bodies, like the risen body of Jesus, together with the mystery not revealed until Paul spoke about it: the instantaneous transformation of the living from mortal to immortal, yet corporeal, existence. Nothing requires "soul sleep" or unconsciousness post-death to the resurrection.
17 posted on 09/07/2008 9:03:47 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: guitarplayer1953
Those who were at the mount was Moses and Elijah. both of whom physically went to heaven.

[Matthew 17:3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him......but, in (verse 9) Our Lord says this: And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. It wasn't real.....it was a vision!

[II Kings 2:1][2:11] And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Wrong heaven. This heaven to which Elijah was taken was simple the sky! Notice that the company of prophets from Jericho in (verse 16) seem to even think he has been taken to another valley....or on some mountain. [II Chronicles 21:12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah. This is taking place about ten years after the chariot incident in [II Kings]! Elijah was taken to the First heaven....the sky.

[Job 35:11] Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven.

18 posted on 09/07/2008 9:07:27 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: uptoolate
Simply put if you read your bible you would know that theses at the mount had gone to heaven bodily. What is arrogant about telling someone to read and learn their bible?

I think that you have read to much into a simple answer.

What would you of done in the time of Christ if you had been healed and He said go and sin no more? Would you of thought that He was being arrogant by telling you not to sin?

19 posted on 09/07/2008 9:08:32 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: madison10

You are absolutely correct and that is called the first resurrection. The second resurrection is the white throne judgment for those who did not accept Christ in this life.


20 posted on 09/07/2008 9:08:32 PM PDT by rabidralph (She shoots, she scores!)
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To: aruanan; Diego1618
The author of Hebrews talks about the New Jerusalem peopled with the spirits of just men made perfect.

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."
21 posted on 09/07/2008 9:11:56 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: Secret Agent Man
The necessity for the resurrection is to regenerate your physical body and return your soul to it.

You may believe that....but I don't think you'll find scripture supporting it.

The concept of an immortal soul is not Christian. It is pagan to the core. You will find no scripture that will support the immortality of the soul. [Ezekiel 18:20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

[John 3:16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There are.....and always have been....two choices. Everlasting life.......or everlasting death.

I believe Plato and the Greeks came up with this idea of an immortal soul. It is not Biblical....and certainly not Christian!

22 posted on 09/07/2008 9:17:55 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: guitarplayer1953
So where does Darby think the just are?

[John 5:28-29] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

23 posted on 09/07/2008 9:21:06 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: aruanan
Jesus said to the thief that the thief would be with him in paradise that day

[Luke 23:43] And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise".

There is no punctuation in the Greek so I can read it this way also. The important thing is.....it now agrees with all the other scriptures regarding death and resurrection.

24 posted on 09/07/2008 9:31:05 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: xjcsa

For the pretrib, premil, prior to the Perfect Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, believers after death were in Abraham’s Bosom, also known as Paradise. Unbelievers resided in the Torments.

Sheol, or Hades, was a place for the dead after separation of the soul from the body.

There are 4 compartments spoken of in regards to Hades. The Abyss, The Torments, Tartarus, and Paradise.

Paradise has been empty since the Resurrection of Christ. Torments are reserved for all unbelievers until the second resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgment, at which time those not found to have their names written in the Book of Life, nor Divinely Good Works are cast into the Lake of Fire. Tartarus is a place for the fallen angels and the Abyss a place for criminal fallen angels kept in darkness and bound until half way through the Great Tribulation when they are released briefly.

Today, as many posters above mention, the believer is face to face with the Lord after death, while the body is in the grave, the soul and spirit are with God.

1 Cor 6:14, “Now God has not only raised the Lord, but He will also raise us through His power.”

Note, that in the Church Age, every believer is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, who provides a temple for the indwelling of Jesus Christ. (See John 14:23-36, Col 1:25-29)

In Rom 8:11 and in 8:38-39 we have enormous guidance.

Rom 8:9-39
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
.....
(16) The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(17) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
.....
(38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
(39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are 3 heavens spoken of in Scripture. The first heaven, where the clouds and birds fly; the second heaven which is a place for the spirit and soul pending the bema seat and Great White Throne Judgment, and the third heaven, the place of glory and residence of God.

1 Tim 3:16, “Christ taken up into the place of glory” refers to the third heaven, the location of the integrity of God.

There isn’t much, I’ve found regarding the body before the resurrection. We see the resurrected body well in the eternal state, and references of those who were beheaded in the Great Tribulation prior to the bema seat and Great White Throne Judgment. There appears to be some sort of temporal pre-resurrection body, but perhaps the reason it isn;t as much discussed is that it might be of the heavenly domain in the second heaven prior to the eternal state.


25 posted on 09/07/2008 9:34:41 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Ping forlater read.


26 posted on 09/07/2008 9:40:23 PM PDT by no dems ("Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice...." Barry Goldwater)
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To: Diego1618; All

N.T. Wright’s, “The Resurrection of the Son of God” discusses this issue at length and with minute attention to both old and new testament scripture. He coins the phrase “Life after Life after Death” to describe first century Christian belief about what happens after we die. He is also very skeptical about the soul/body dichotomy and, like Diego1618, believes it is a pagan notion.

To anyone on this thread interested in a really in depth treatment of the issues on this thread, I commend this book. I cannot pretend to do it justice in a post.


27 posted on 09/07/2008 9:41:21 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: guitarplayer1953

believers of the Church Age are the just ones


28 posted on 09/07/2008 9:41:31 PM PDT by smokingfrog (He that lives upon hope will die fasting. - Ben Franklin)
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To: Diego1618
Where did the angel take Moses body? Up into the air and then dropped him some place?

Elias was never seen again did God put him in His flying saucer and whisked him off?

Enoch did not see death where is he?

Genesis Gen. 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.

Maybe he's in he's in the flying saucer with Elias.

29 posted on 09/07/2008 9:42:52 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Simply put if you read your bible you would know that theses at the mount had gone to heaven bodily. What is arrogant about telling someone to read and learn their bible?

I do read my Bible, and yes I do know that they were in Heaven. The title of your posted article has the question "Who Is In Heaven Now" and then proceeds to spell out the case that every believer goes to Hades, to await the resurrection implying that their would be no believers in Heaven, while in fact their are two if one holds to this belief system implied by the article.

As I stated in my first post, I do not hold to a direct opinion on this issue one way or the other at this time. More than not, these types of posts are thrown out for discussion and end up dividing the Body instead of unifying. One person proudly presents their case feeling confident in their convictions, while another feels their convictions are under attack and proudly defend. Interesting that the word "proud" is used to describe both. "Useless arguments".

But for me at least, it serves me well, in Christian love of course, to protect those from contradicting ones own argument in the same article, or at least pointing out that they had left out some important exemptions, of which could really be a source of confusion for one who is searching for edification. I know you have read and learned your Bible, please try to express it in written form as well as you have read and learned it.

30 posted on 09/07/2008 9:50:20 PM PDT by uptoolate (I will be voting for a real conservative, and she just arrived)
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To: Diego1618
[Luke 23:43] And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise".

This fallacy of emphasis came into vogue only after certain soul-sleep cults needed to explain away scripture that contradicted their teachings. The absurdity of this explanation for the words of Jesus is this: promoting this asserts his saying something that is merely redundant--when else was he going to say it, the day before they were on the cross or the next day when they were both dead? Since promoting the punctuation argument involves Jesus in incredible banality, it's far more likely, given other scripture as well as the context (which you seem to have overlooked), that he was emphasizing the fact that it was today that the thief would be with him in paradise, not some day far off in the future when he came into his kingdom. Otherwise, the whole exchange amounts to nothing more than

Criminal: "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus: "Okay."
31 posted on 09/07/2008 10:06:29 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: guitarplayer1953

The are three options given by Christ:
Heaven
Hell
Purgatory

Oh, I know you will give me the line that the word “Porgatory” is not in the Bible, but there is too much about it in the Bible to deny the existance of Purgatory.

Did not souls rise from their graves and roam around Jerusalem after Christ’s Resurrection? Where were they? Certainly not in heaven, because Christ was the first one into heaven.


32 posted on 09/07/2008 10:10:21 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: uptoolate

You forgot: Does time exist in heaven? What if it didn’t? That would mean you would be there right now, as much as “right now” can exist in a timeless existence.


33 posted on 09/07/2008 10:10:33 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]

Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]

PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus]

What Happens After Death?

Purgatory

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory

The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.

(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory

Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?

Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?

Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)

Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory

The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory

Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

34 posted on 09/07/2008 10:11:27 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: madison10
**Just what the Bible says**

Well, here you go. References to Purgatory from the Bible:

Scriptural Basis

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.


35 posted on 09/07/2008 10:15:19 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: guitarplayer1953
Where did the angel take Moses body? Up into the air and then dropped him some place?

[Deuteronmoy 34:5-6] So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Elias was never seen again did God put him in His flying saucer and whisked him off?

[II Chronicles 21:12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah. This incident occurred about 10 years after the chariot incident. Elijah is still alive and kicking! See post #18. He was taken to the first heaven......the sky.

Enoch did not see death where is he?

Strange....my scriptures say he died! [Hebrews 11:5-13] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death (the second death [Revelation 20:6]); and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. y faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. y faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Is Enoch included with all of these folks who died?

Maybe he's in he's in the flying saucer with Elias.

If you want to be cute....I will just not respond anymore. If you want to learn something, I will be glad to discourse.

36 posted on 09/07/2008 10:16:27 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: dan1123
You forgot: Does time exist in heaven?

I didn't forget. That was where these thoughts were headed in my post:

Will waiting 1000 years feel different than waiting only 10 days? Will there be a "real" consciousness of time without physically experience the rising of the sun in the morning, and the setting of the sun in the evening? Will being in a "spiritual" state as opposed to a "physical" state relieve us from the pressure of time, kind of like "transcending time"? Will a thousand years feel like a day?

The main thing here is that only those who are dead know beyond a shadow of a doubt the answer to these questions. I'll wait 'till then to make up my mind. As far as I can see, it has no direct bearing on my salvation, but arguing about it has a direct effect on my character.

37 posted on 09/07/2008 10:17:52 PM PDT by uptoolate (I will be voting for a real conservative, and she just arrived)
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To: guitarplayer1953

Looking to that “Great Gettin’ Up Mornin’”.


38 posted on 09/07/2008 10:20:16 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Obama's Pay Grade: Chump Change - Under the Cone of Stupid)
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To: aruanan
This fallacy of emphasis came into vogue only after certain soul-sleep cults needed to explain away scripture that contradicted their teachings.

O.K. why don't you show us all where [John 3:16] really says were all going to live forever.....some in heaven and others in hell?

Then why don't you explain [Ezekiel 18:20] and how the soul does continue to live on.....forever and ever.

The teaching I am putting forth is First Century Christianity.....not some Catholic/Protestant cult tradition. Some of you folks really need to dig into your scriptures and realize that you have been hoodwinked..... probably from childhood into believing these fairy tales!

39 posted on 09/07/2008 10:26:18 PM PDT by Diego1618
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To: uptoolate
The main thing here is that only those who are dead know beyond a shadow of a doubt the answer to these questions. I'll wait 'till then to make up my mind.

I agree with this. I think there are some things in the Bible designed not to make sense because they cannot from our Earthly perspective. The most common thing I see is any instance that "when" is applied to God, and I think this also may extend to heaven. I believe these things fall along the lines of "cannot know" and should therefore be taken very lightly in discussion. All the same, it is fun to speculate lightheartedly. That's probably the reason I like to listen to Coast to Coast.

40 posted on 09/07/2008 10:48:53 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: Diego1618
Ok I won't be cute any more or should I say a lot less. I understand that Moses died so why did God need his body if he was to be raised up upon the 1st resurrection? We covered that in Jude.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Here it says that he did not taste death. So where was he translated to?

Is it possible that Moses, Elisha, and Enoch have translated to one of the seven levels of heaven?

41 posted on 09/08/2008 12:36:48 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: Salvation
Instead of posting abunch of links that no one will read, debate the topic in a educated manner. Just a suggestion.
42 posted on 09/08/2008 12:46:50 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: Salvation
"but there is too much about it in the Bible to deny the existance of Purgatory."

With this blanket statement would you please give some evidence for it? A few verses or as you stated there are way to many.

I am unaware of any that would substantiate this fairytale doctrine.

43 posted on 09/08/2008 1:33:05 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Psalm 83:1-8 is on the horizon.)
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To: Diego1618
Yours is the correct interpretation, as I see it. There is a reason that those who passed on are said to have "fallen asleep" in the New Testament, rather than "gone on to Glory", or "gone to be with the Lord".. All later affectations, which have no Scriptural foundations.

The only thing I find hard to add in is my Grandmother's (and many others) death, where minutes before the end, she became entirely lucid and able to make her goodbyes, and the greatest joy filled her face, when she saw her Savior and departed family come to take her home.

If this is but a vision of the meeting they will have in Heaven, and a sure knowledge as a reward before the Spirit leaves, that would explain the occurrence, but something MUST explain such things, as they are surely true.

44 posted on 09/08/2008 2:26:28 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: guitarplayer1953
I am unaware of any that would substantiate this fairytale doctrine.

That, in a nutshell, characterizes your own personal interpretation of Scripture, which is seriously lacking.

45 posted on 09/08/2008 4:14:55 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Diego1618
The teaching I am putting forth is First Century Christianity.....not some Catholic/Protestant cult tradition. Some of you folks really need to dig into your scriptures and realize that you have been hoodwinked..... probably from childhood into believing these fairy tales!

Yah huh. A conspiracy between all my Bib Lit teachers and others throughout the centuries. You know, it is a mark of cults to claim that their teachings represent the true or original teachings of the church purged of centuries of ecclesiastical corruption or otherwise wishful thinking. A more appropriate target would be pre-millennialist dispensationalism.
46 posted on 09/08/2008 4:19:54 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: guitarplayer1953
2nd Kings 00029 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

If this is so, you would have to explain how someone got to "heaven" without the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Elijah was carried away into the skies, heaven, but a whirlwind. But he was merely taken to another location. The evidence?

2Ch 21:12 ¶ And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

If you look at the chronology, you will see that this letter was received long after Elijah was taken up into the whirlwind.

In other words, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah detailing current events AFTER Elijah supposedly was in heaven.

47 posted on 09/08/2008 5:48:13 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Diego1618
Wrong heaven. This heaven to which Elijah was taken was simple the sky! Notice that the company of prophets from Jericho in (verse 16) seem to even think he has been taken to another valley....or on some mountain. [II Chronicles 21:12] And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah. This is taking place about ten years after the chariot incident in [II Kings]! Elijah was taken to the First heaven....the sky.

I should have known you would have already seen this error and corrected it my friend...

48 posted on 09/08/2008 5:49:47 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: dan1123
All the same, it is fun to speculate lightheartedly. That's probably the reason I like to listen to Coast to Coast.

OK. But the moment we hear that you have a lawn chair set up right outside Area 51, the Church is gonna come down hard on you, LOL.

49 posted on 09/08/2008 6:20:16 AM PDT by uptoolate (I will be voting for a real conservative, and she just arrived)
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To: guitarplayer1953

“If I knew God I’d be Him.”


50 posted on 09/08/2008 7:34:44 AM PDT by onedoug
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