Posted on 09/11/2008 5:07:17 PM PDT by stfassisi
God created us to His own likeness and image, in order that He might share with us His own beatitude, His own divine life. In order to make us capable of sharing in His divine life (which is one of infinite LOVE and KNOWLEDGE of His own divine essence), He fashioned us with an intellect capable of sharing His infinite TRUTH, and a will capable of sharing in His infinite LOVE by the surrender of our will to His.
He not only gave us a will capable of loving Him, but a will that is free to love Him or not love Him . . . free to choose God as our ultimate good, or something other than God. He not only wanted to share with us His own happiness, but he wanted us to merit that beatitude; and no act is meritorious that is not free. He would give us all the helps necessary to merit that eternal reward, but we would have to freely prefer His will to our own whenever there is a conflict between the two.
Human freedom includes two things: on the part of the MIND, there is a judgment that one thing is preferable to another; on the part of the WILL, there is a choice by which this judgment is accepted and acted upon. The will is such that, of its nature, it always tends to the good- in much the same way as a falling stone always tends to fall downward. If that is so, how can we explain how we can so easily choose what is evil? The answer to that lies in the difference between real good, and apparent good. The will seeks what is good, or what appears to be good. As we saw in our last issue dealing with the passions of the body, they can be so intense that the judgment of the intellect can be gravely obscured, so that the will chooses not the true good which the light of reason proposes, but the apparent good which the body appetites are seeking, and which could be against the law of God. In such cases, says St. Thomas Aquinas, "the judgment of reason often follows the passions of the sensitive appetites, and consequently the will’s movement follows it also, since it has a natural inclination to follow the judgment of reason." (1-11,77,1)
THE WILL - THE KEY FACULTY IN MAN The human will is the key faculty in man. As the will is, so man is - good or evil. To the extent that the INTELLECT is perfected, we have a better informed person; but to the extent that the WILL is perfected, we have a better person. The will is the faculty ultimately responsible (under God) for our salvation, or our damnation.
We are saved or damned according to what we love; and it is the work of the will to love, to choose, to act. If we love God to the end (by our choices in keeping with His Will), we shall ultimately possess God and eternal beatitude. If, at the end of our life, we love self in preference to God (choosing our will in preference to His), we shall ultimately experience total separation from God - which is the essence of damnation. That is to say, we shall get what we choose. "God made man from the beginning and left him in the hand of his own counsel . . . Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him." (Ecclus. 15:14,18)
It should be clear, then, that the will is in the driver’s seat . . . is the master of all the other faculties and members of the human body. Yet the will’s reign is not an easy one; the subjects it controls (our sense faculties) are always ready for rebellion. As Fr. Walter Farrell, O.P. points out, the sense appetites are neither a "den of iniquity" (even though they occasion many a downfall), nor are they a "holy of holies" (even though they may be the instrument of much mortification). By means of them one can rise to great heights, or can sink to great depths, but only because of the decisions of the will which alone receives the blame or the praise. Our will had no part in our creation, in our becoming man; but as to what sort of man we become, it will be decisive.
THE NEED OF GOD’S GRACE Speaking of the freedom of will, the second Vatican Council declared that man will achieve his human dignity when, emancipating himself from the captivity of passion, he freely chooses a goal that is good (i.e. in keeping with God’s will), and procures apt means to that end. It then continues:
"Since man’s freedom has been damaged by sin, only by the help of God’s grace can he bring such a relationship with God into full flower. Before the judgment seat of God man must render an account of his own life, whether he has done good or evil." (The Church Today, n. 7) This statement of the Council regarding man’s freedom could be stated in another way:
Since man’s will has been damaged by sin, only by the help of God’s grace can he bring about the due subjection of his will to God’s . . . only by the help of God’s grace can his will become the master of his lower nature. It is clear from the above that man must strive to make his lower nature submissive to his will, and his will submissive to God; but that battle will never be won by his natural powers alone. As we stated in a previous issue of THE ROSARY, LIGHT AND LIFE, "in spite of all we have said about the need of mortification, the detachment of the heart (the will) from created goods is primarily a work of divine grace. It is effected primarily by God rather than by man. As St. Thomas Aquinas states: ‘Man’s will can only be subject to God when God draws man’s will to Himself’ (I-II, 109, 7). Yet God demands a definite cooperation on our part before He liberates the heart (the will) from the strong hold that worldly goods and pleasures exercise over it." (Vol. 42, n. 2)
With each increase of grace and charity one is able to love God with a greater intensity, that is, with a greater willingness to sacrifice one’s own will in order to fulfill His. With each increase of grace, God more and more attracts the heart of man (the will) to Himself. "No man can come to Me, except the Father who sent Me draw him." (Jn. 12:32)
TWO NOTIONS OF FREEDOM Pope John Paul II pointed out in his Apostolic Constitution on the Family that there is in the world a struggle between two freedoms that are in mutual conflict, because it is based on a conflict between two loves which are in mutual conflict—as expressed by St. Augustine: LOVE OF GOD to the point of disregarding self, and LOVE OF SELF to the point of disregarding God.
A) Love of God, to the point of disregarding self: This brings about the freedom of which Our Lord spoke:
"If you live according to My teaching, you are truly My disciples . . . then you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (Jn. 8:31) "He who loses his life for My sake will find it." (Mt. 10:39) The above expression of St. Augustine does not mean a disregarding of the basic necessities of life, but rather the self-denial needed to bring one’s lower nature under the control of the will. Only when one is liberated from the unruly demands of our fallen nature with its inclination to evil, is one truly free. This is a liberation within the heart of man (the will) . . . a freedom from being dominated by the world, the flesh, the ego . . . a freedom from the domination of anything that would cause the will to choose other than what God wills. It is a freedom that ennobles, that builds up, that brings man to his true fulfillment as intended by the Creator.
B) Love of self, to the point of disregarding God: This kind of freedom could better be called license, for it is a seeking of one’s own will in opposition to God’s. Such persons think they are free (as they understand freedom), but in reality they become slaves of this or that passion, material possession, or worldly satisfaction which dominates the heart and holds them captive. There are many references in the Scriptures to this false freedom:
"In truth I say to you, everyone who lives in sin is a slave to sin." (Jn. 8:34) "They promise others freedom, whereas they themselves are slaves of corruption; for surely anyone is a slave to that by which he has been overcome." (2 Pet. 2:19) "No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate one and love the other, or else he will stand by one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon." (Mt. 6:24) The more the love of self becomes one’s master, the more he rejects God’s will and the limitations it imposes. Unlike true freedom which ennobles, this a freedom that destroys both the individual and society, for it disregards the will of the Creator and the order He imposed.
A UNION OF WILLS The goal of the Christian life is to grow in union with God through the growth in divine grace. But here again, the will is the key faculty as regards that growth. In our life here on earth, that union is essentially a union of our will with God’s - aided by the infused virtues and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. And there can be a union between an inferior being and an infinitely superior being, only by the surrender or submission of the lower to the higher. There can be a great latitude in the extent or fullness of that surrender, but the completeness of it indicates the growth in holiness. With each addition to the completeness of the surrender of man’s will to God, added grace flows from the divine Font of Life to that human soul.
All forms of submission to God’s will are ways of opening the soul to the Holy Spirit, Who is the source of holiness in the Church. And the more one obeys God’s will the freer that surrender becomes, a freedom perfected by the Holy Spirit. As Fr. Pierre-Andre Liege, O.P. states, speaking of this action of the Holy Spirit: "The Spirit issues no edicts, rather, He appeals to the heart; he opens men’s eyes, He gives the power to fulfill His commands. His compulsion is all from within." (Consider Christian Maturity, p. 87). This is a freedom whose perfection is attained, not by removing the external obstacles of the law, but by the Father drawing the heart of man to Himself through the action of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Holy Spirit respects our liberty and will not make Himself the Master of our will, unless we are disposed to surrender it to Him freely.
Although both men and angels were created with a free-will, they are nevertheless subject to the providence of God. That freedom can be the source of great potentialities, and the source of great responsibilities. Man knows that he can do wrong; but he also knows that he ought to do what is right. He knows that he can choose not to obey, to reject the Sovereign Good and choose instead created joys and satisfactions as his supreme good and last end; but he cannot choose the consequences of his choice. He can abuse his freedom, he can rebel (and every sin is a rebellion), but he cannot frustrate the plan of God’s providence as to the punishment to be meted out to those who refuse to submit to God’s all-wise and merciful laws.
Human freedom is real, but it is limited. It is not the right to choose between good and evil. Man has the capacity to choose evil, but not the right. Rather he has the right to choose apt means to attain an end in keeping with God’s laws. It is not a freedom from those laws; it is a freedom within them. Although it may sound like a contradiction, freedom is always bound up with obedience to the law of God. Every law that is habitually obeyed increases our freedom, for it further strengthens the mastery of the will over the other powers of the soul.
For this reason, as we pointed out in a previous issue "one rather reliable guide as to the kind of freedom one is seeking is one’s attitude toward obedience: for the worldly person looks on obedience as standing in the way of being free, while the true Christian sees it as an indispensable condition of becoming free." (Vol. 39, n. 2)
TRUE FREEDOM REQUIRES DISCIPLINE Our will retains strong attachments to creatures, especially to the "ego," to which we stubbornly cling. Hence, to cooperate with the action of the Holy Spirit, it is important to strive to discipline all forms of selfishness. So many of our “good resolutions” do not last because they are not true resolutions at all, but mere wishes; and when they are confronted with something we really want, they come tumbling down.
In stressing the role of the Holy Spirit and grace in liberating the will from undue worldly attachments, it would be sheer presumption to imagine that God will come with His liberating grace, if we do not do what we can. That inner freedom must be fought for with perseverance, and can be won only at a considerable price. We will never in this life attain the perfect freedom that our first parents had before the fall, but the whole of our spiritual life will be a striving for that goal.
The will can be trained in the same way as the memory or the intelligence, by actual exercise, self-discipline. One important means of training the will is to strengthen the motive, that is, to strive to retain a vivid idea of the goal to be attained. So often the vivid sense images presented by the imagination tend to overshadow and cloud out the good which the light of reason enlightened by faith presents to the will, causing the will to choose the former.
Consistent practicing of discipline and self-control will result in the acquisition of moral habits. One can, for example, conquer a bad temper by recalling that the frustrations, or irritations, or humiliations, etc. that make one angry are but aspects of the cross we are asked to carry, and are opportunities of surrender of our will to the all-wise providence of God. Or one can conquer a lazy disposition by making punctuality a point of persistent voluntary control. It is such efforts as these, along with prayer, that open the soul to the strengthening and liberating action of the Holy Spirit.
We speak of strong and weak characters. A person who consistently adheres to his decision to conquer some weakness shows a strong character; and one who easily give in to impulses, and changes his decision when the going becomes difficult shows a weak character. Since, however, the key to those decisions is the will, it is obvious that strength of character depends on strength of the will aided by divine grace.
The expression "strength of will," however, needs some clarification, for the will is a spiritual faculty and the act of the will is not subject to measurement. Too, one might be said to have a "strong will" who is stubborn and intractable in clinging to his own satisfactions. Strength of will in the Christian sense means a strength in sacrificing one’s own will in order that God’s will be done.
Commenting on an article of St. Thomas who is explaining St. Paul’s reference to "slaves of sin" and "slaves of God" (II-II,183,4 . . . Rom. 6:20-22), Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. sums up well what we have tried to say:
"During our lifetime we always run the unhappy risk of throwing off our Lord’s yoke, no matter how light it may be, and resisting His grace. This misfortune is the more to be feared when our will pretends to be its own master instead of abandoning itself to divine Providence; for the perfection of the will consists in placing itself in God’s hands, in making use of its own proper activity only to become more dependent on Him, in being always docile to grace. Let us offer our liberty to Jesus through Mary and try never to take it back again; in this holy slavery we find deliverance and a most sure road to heaven." (The Love of God & Cross of Jesus, 11, p. 346)
Thank you for the post.
His utter control explains why He has His elect, and His choice of the hardened. The Jacobs & the Esaus. The greatest joy is in finding that it really does not depend upon us, although as He lays hold of us, we find ourselves laying hold of Him. And we are told to cling desperately to Him. It is just the order that is important. And I respectfully disagree with this writer.
These are all badges of honor we wish to wear so we can say, “At least I chose, disciplined, cooperated (fill in the blank) and they did not. That is why I should be in heaven.” It is a devastatingly humiliating thing to say, “He chooses for no reason visible to men. So that it can be His choice.”
Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad- in order that God's purpose in election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls - she (Rebekah) was told, “The older will serve the younger.” It does not depend therefore on man's effort or on man's desire, but on God's mercy. Rom 9.
Than God is responsible for 9-11 and every abortion,rape of a child etc... according to you and your interpretation of the Bible.
No wonder there are atheists,it is people like you who freely lead them astray to make them believe that God is zeus!
Perhaps Blessed Saint Thomas can help you understand this better?
That God hates nothing -From Saint Thomas Aquinas
AS love is to good, so is hatred to evil; we wish good to them whom we love, and evil to them whom we hate. If then the will of God cannot be inclined to evil, as has been shown (Chap. XCV), it is impossible for Him to hate anything.
2. The will of God tends to things other than Himself inasmuch as, by willing and loving His own being and goodness, He wishes it to be diffused as far as is possible by communication of His likeness. This then is what God wills in beings other than Himself, that there be in them the likeness of His goodness. Therefore God wills the good of everything, and hates nothing.
4. What is found naturally in all active causes, must be found especially in the Prime Agent. But all agents in their own way love the effects which they themselves produce, as parents their children, poets their own poems, craftsmen their works. Much more therefore is God removed from hating anything, seeing that He is cause of all.*
Hence it is said: Thou lovest all things that are, and hatest nothing of the things that Thou hast made (Wisd. xi, 25).
Some things however God is said, to hate figuratively (similitudinarie), and that in two ways. The first way is this, that God, in loving things and willing their good to be, wills their evil not to be: hence He is said to have hatred of evils, for the things we wish not to be we are said to hate. So it is said: Think no evil in your hearts every one of you against his friend, and love no lying oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the Lord (Zach. viii, 17). But none of these things are effects of creation: they are not as subsistent things, to which hatred or love properly attaches. The other way is by God’s wishing some greater good, which cannot be without the privation of a lesser good; and thus He is said to hate, whereas it is more properly love. Thus inasmuch as He wills the good of justice, or of the order of the universe, which cannot be without the punishment or perishing of some, He is said to hate those beings whose punishment or perishing He wills, according to the text, Esau I have hated (Malach. i, 3); and, Thou hatest all who work Iniquity, thou wilt destroy all who utter falsehood: the man of blood and deceit the Lord shall abominate (Ps. v, 7).
Isaiah 24:1 See the Lord is going to lay waste the earth and devestate it; he will ruin its face and scatter its inhabitants...
It is the Bible that says God is ultimately responsible for 9-11 and every abortion, rape of a child, etc... not according to me. But, will he hold the men He maneuvered to be involved in those dastardly deeds guilty? Yes. I cannot explain how this will happen, but you, my friend, are clearly not a student of the text but a lover of philosophy. You need to have human justice eclipse the Scriptures.
And I am not leading anyone astray by informing you of the truth. The God of Israel is certainly not zeus or anything else. He is the Blessed Controller of all things. And someday you will fall on your face, grateful that this is so.
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will? But, who are you, O man, to talk back to God?” Rom 9:19
Thomas is no more a saint than you, my friend, nor is he less of a saint. Again, read the Book. We are all priests and we are all saints, if we have been laid hold of by Jesus. Aquinas has some very good things to say, but read Augustine and you will understand that we are in His grip. Pelagius and his ilk were rejected even by the Roman Catholic Church. You have left your own roots.
There is no need for the devil by your heretical foolishness
The spirit that leads you is not of Christ
“It is not God’s foreknowledge of those who, by their free choice and zeal, will prevail which is the cause of their victory, just as, again, it is not His knowing beforehand who will fall and be vanquished which is responsible for their defeat. Instead, it is the zeal, deliberate choice, and courage of each of us which effects the victory. Our faithlessness and sloth, our irresolution and indolence, on the other hand, comprise our defeat and perdition. So, while reclining on our bed of worldly affection He predestined,’ without perceiving just what it is we are saying. Yes, indeed, He truly knew you beforehand as inattentive and disobedient and lazy, but this is certainly not because He ordered or foreordained it that you should have no power to repent yourself nor, if you will it, to get up and obey.” +Symeon the New Theologian.
“In making us in His image, after His likeness, God placed us before Him, not as an action of His, entirely subject to Him, but as fact even for Him - as free beings. And by virtue of this, relations between man and God are based on the principle of freedom. When we take advantage of this freedom and commit sin, we thrust God aside. This liberty to turn away from God is the negative, tragic aspect of free will, but it is a sine qua non if we are to take hold of the life which is truly divine, life which is not predetermined.” Archimandrite Sophrony
As far as our (us feelthy Papists, that is) being semi-Pelagian is concerned, I think it's not a slam dunk. Strong arguments can be made on either side. But a serious Calvinist needs, I think, to resort to more than rhetoric to develop how his view is not one of mere automata.
One of the riddles to which I find no satisfactory answer is Peter saying, "I do not know the man." What was he teaching us then about free will and grace?
To set some bounds to the discussion, I want to say that no thoughtful, informed Catholic thinks that he “merits” anything except by God’s gift. That is, if I ever used my freedom rightly (which is doubtful), it was God who gave me the gift to do so, “both to will and to do.”
If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
Seems like salvation is from God alone, from beginning to end.
So much for our glorious free will.
You forgot the first part of Paul's sentence in Phil 2.
For every Scripture verse you post that supposedly tells us that God does "all", and we do nothing, even preventing men from being secondary causes, I can post another verse that proclaims the truth.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev 3:20
Clearly, Jesus awaits our response - one that OTHER Scriptures tell us God PREPARES (not overrides) in the first place.
We are going to have to accept that the mystery of the paradox of free will and God's grace are beyond us and that we should accept what ALL of the Scriptures say on this matter. Both are part of the teachings that we have been given.
Regards
Blessed Saint Thomas Aquinas explains this so well
That Subsistent Intelligences have Free Will -From Saint Thomas Aquinas
THEY must be free, if they have dominion over their own acts.
2. A free agent is an agent that is cause of its own action (sui causa, sibi causa agendi). Agents that are determined (moventur) and act only inasmuch as they are determined by others, are not causes of their own acts. Only self-determining agents (moventia seipsa) have liberty of action; and these alone are guided in their action by judgement. A self-determining agent is made up of two elements, one determining and another determined. The element determined is the appetite; and that is determined either by intellect, or by phantasy, or by sense: for to these powers it belongs to judge. Of such self-determining agents, those alone judge freely which determine their own judgement. But no faculty of judging determines its own judgement unless it reflects upon its own act. If then it is to determine itself to judge, it must know its own judgement; and that knowledge belongs to intellect alone. Irrational animals then have a sort of free determination, or action, but not a free judgement (sunt quodammodo liberi quidem motus, sive actionis, non autem liberi judicii):* while inanimate things, being dependent for their every determination on things other than themselves, have not so much as free action, or determination. On the contrary, intelligent beings have not only free action, but also free judgement, which is having free will.*
3. An apprehension becomes a motive according as the thing apprehended takes the form of something good or suitable. In agents that determine their own movements,* the outward action goes upon some judgement pronouncing a thing good or suitable according as it is apprehended. If the agent pronouncing the judgement is to determine himself to judge,* he must be guided to that judgement by some higher form or idea in his apprehension.* This idea can be no other than the universal idea (ipsa ratio) of goodness or fitness, by aid whereof a judgement is formed of any given definite good, fit, or suitable thing. Therefore those agents alone determine themselves to judge, which have this general concept of goodness or fitness, -- that is to say, only intelligent agents. Therefore intelligent agents alone determine themselves, not only to act, but also to judge. They therefore alone are free in judging, which is having free will.
4. No movement or action follows from a general concept except by the medium of some particular apprehension, as all movement and action deals with particulars. Now the understanding naturally apprehends the universal. In order then that movement or any manner of action may follow upon the intellectual apprehension, the universal concept of the understanding must be applied to particular objects. But the universal contains in potentiality many particular objects. Therefore the application of the intellectual concept may be made to many divers objects; and consequently the judgement of the understanding about things to be done is not determined to one thing only.*
5. Some agents are without liberty of judgement, either because they have no judgement at all, as is the case with things that have no knowledge, as stones and plants, or because they have a judgement naturally determined to one effect, as irrational animals. For by natural reckoning* the sheep judges that the wolf is hurtful to it, and on this judgement flies from the wolf. But whatever agents have their judgement of things to be done not determined by nature to one effect, they must have free will. Such are all intelligent agents; for the understanding apprehends, not only this or that good, but good itself in general. Hence, since it is through the idea in apprehension that the understanding moves the will; and in all things the motive, or moving power, and the object moved must be proportioned to one another; it follows that the will of an intelligent subsistent being is not determined by nature except to good in general. Whatever therefore is presented to the will under the specific notion of good (sub ratione boni), the will may incline to it, without let or hindrance from any natural determination to the contrary. Therefore all intelligent agents have free will, arising out of the judgement of the understanding; and free will is defined 'a free judgement on the matter of a specific notion, or general concept.'*
Nice to see you back Dear Brother, not much ever changes round here in this forum as far as the crowds of opposition go.
It gives me more reason for prayer and adoration though!
I wish you a Blessed day!
You don't have to use the spooky hints that this is from some dark side. This is the original theology of the real Church.
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no man can come to Me unless the Father enabled him.” John 6:65 You need to read your Bible instead of your philosophers. The empty myths have been debunked two thousand years ago.
You don’t need to resort to self-loathing to make a point. If the so-called strong arguments leave a person thinking a “little of both”, then you remain clinging to the possibilty of self-determination. Read the posts, everyone comes down on one side or the other. There is no middle ground. You will believe you got yourself to salvation, to take Him up on His offer, to make a decision for Christ, to (fill in the blank) OR you will believe that God raised you from the dead, made you alive in Christ and you began to recognize that new life. Should we then cling to Him with all we can think and “choose”? Of course. But, who put that there?
You chose one of the classic pictures of Jesus’ control over the universe (and men) when you mention Peter’s denial. Recall, Jesus said this is what he was going to do before morning. We have a couple of possibilities here. Peter could have pulled up his bootstraps and not denied Him and made Jesus in error, wrong, a bad guesser? Or Peter was walking a path that lead him precisely to a point written into the script (albeit painful, sinful, tragic) that was unavoidable. Could the episode have turned out differently? If not, then the perfect foreknowledge of God and His Son Jesus is a reality because reality plays out exactly as He sets it in motion.
When God enters the drama (as Jesus did) there are indications that He is limited in this knowledge, but we find from other texts this is just for the effect at the moment. For example, when He comes to the garden for Adam and says, “Adam, where are you?” Do you really think He doesn’t know? Of course not. He made the garden and sustained it with the word of His power. This is the dramatic sequence to make a point about Adam’s hiding. Read the whole story. Laced everywhere into the message is that our God, the God of Israel, the Lord of Heavean & earth, the Maker of all, is the Great Controller. That is why you can rest easy. If you love Him, then you have been captured by Him. Is that not better than saying, “Whoo. At least I chose Him and those feelthy pagans deserve hell because they reject Him.” Then you really aren’t as bad as them, right?
Sadly, I am just as bad as them. Worse, sometimes. But, that is the amazing grace of the Gospel. I don’t know how He did it, but once I was blind and now I see. We know the end of the story and He wins! But, if Pelagius is just semi-right...
The Protestant site I was active on has largely quited down from the anti-Catholicism there. So here I am, and I see some of the same old arguments still being put forth...
Glad to see you still have maintained your loving attitude. This line of "work" can be frustrating, as logical arguments do not sink in for some people. We must turn more to the Lord in prayer, and I'm thinking of going to Adoration and say a rosary this afternoon. I'll keep you in my prayers
Brother in Christ.
Notice your careful wording here. There is a tendency to use this “gift” language as a means of saying, “And all you need to do is ask for it.” However, what true gift do you have that you have asked for? Then comes the condition that, at least you need to hold out your hands to receive a “gift”. This is where the language leaves a misleading impression. This gift is thrust into your life, really against your “will”.
Let me be specific, here. At the time you are made alive, according to the Scriptures you are “...dead in your sins and trespasses.” God then, because He elected you long ago, set out at that time to breathe life into your dead soul. He forgives us, by the vicarious atoning death of His Son, and THEN clothes us in the righteousness of His Son with a righteousness not our own.
We may or may not be fully aware of this occurring in our lives. Most folks being rescued notice an awakening to the desparate evil lurking in their hearts, then the need for it to be dealt with. Later, as the attempts to change it are tried (and fail), they begin to come to love the God that has shown mercy on them.
At what point did the person instigate this? The Scriptures states, never. You point out so poignantly that, “...it was God who gave me the gift to do so, ‘both to will and to do.’” My friend, that is precisely what I am saying. When that perspective is supplanted by my “free will”, I forget who exactly is running the show. When Paul was knocked to the ground and blinded, we don’t find anywhere in the story that he suddenly “decided” this is the answer, Jesus really is the Son of God. It was infused, burned into his mind and heart. He was radically changed and was the writer of the words that you quote.
Are we to “work out our own salvation”? Yes, of course, because it, “is God at work in us both to Will (choose) and Act (behave) according to His good purpose.” Phil. 2:12,13.
I’m not clear on what you mean by setting, “...bounds to the discussion,...” but I have no intention of making this seem like I have no perceptions of feelings or interest. I am saying what you said, God is the mover of wills and behaviors.
Amen. Every word of Christ is true.
The Bible is filled with if/then lessons meant to show us how we are to live lives that glorify God. None of that erases the fact that "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13)
Paul tells us our sanctification by the indwelling Holy Spirit will lead us to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling," having been made aware of the awesome power of God and the unparalleled extent of His mercy. The RCC somehow thinks this preface negates Paul's point which it does not. The RCC has no response to Paul's conclusion that it is God's will that we believe, not our own, a fact which rightly fills us with reverence and awe for the free, unmerited gift of God's grace through faith.
Christ explains who is able to hear His voice and do His will...
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" -- John 10:26-27"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
The call to believe in the Triune God of creation and in Jesus' resurrection goes out to all the world. And the only ones to hear the call and respond in faith are those whom God has gifted with new ears and new eyes and a new heart and a renewed mind, all by he free, unearned gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
For Christians to deny election and God's personal decision to redeem whom He will according to God's will and not according to men's will is hubris of the first order. That's why Scripture speaks against that hubris so often, rightly telling us God elects according to His good pleasure alone.
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will" -- Ephesians 1:4-5"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" -- 2 Titus 1:9
What could be clearer? No wonder the RCC gives its members no security in their salvation. The RCC believes their salvation is up to men's imperfect, feeble, errant will and ability to accomplish, and not determined by God alone; through, for and by Christ alone. Pity.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." -- John 6:37-39"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Christ is telling us faith is according to God's grace, and not according to our fallen wills. That's why we can be certain of our salvation -- because we have not won it; Christ has won it for us according to God's will. Thus none whom God has given to Christ will be lost. We know whom we have believed.
"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65
If God had given all men the will and ability to come to Christ, to hear His voice, to open the door, then all men would believe and be saved.
And yet this does not appear to be the case.
Therefore, salvation is of the Lord, from start to finish, since He has "declared the end from the beginning."
So what about Gamecock's quote? Is the paragraph true or not? Even with the entire chapter of Phil. 2, how is that paragraph not accurate?
If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
Shame on us if you perceive this to be simply anti-Catholic. It is anti-SemiPelagianism in any form, including many of the megasupergigantus Evangelical “churches”.
And I am glad to hear you see them as the “same old” arguments, for that they surely are. From the Bible itself, actually, rather than from the philosophers. That message, of God’s utter control over all, transcendent, holy, magificent without limit, is the underpinning of the true Gospel. It is not man’s will to turn.
Paul repeatedly denounces this man-made philosophy beginning in the letter to the Romans, “...there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, together they have become worthless...” Rom.3:11,12.
Your devotion to God is admirable. The question as to its origin is what is on the table. Your philosophers claim it is you, thanks to your “free will”. God did what He could, but lucky for Him, you decided to turn. OR according to Paul, you did not seek Him, but He sought you, took you from your toe-tag dead state, blew life into your lifeless state, and said, “LIVE”. He took out your heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh. Jer. 31.
Now, you love Him. Why is that a bad thing?
AMEN!
We may or may not be fully aware of this occurring in our lives. Most folks being rescued notice an awakening to the desparate evil lurking in their hearts, then the need for it to be dealt with. Later, as the attempts to change it are tried (and fail), they begin to come to love the God that has shown mercy on them.
At what point did the person instigate this? The Scriptures states, never.
AMEN! When a person is moved by the Holy Spirit to understand that salvation is all according to God's will, the gift of grace becomes so much more startling and effective and live-changing.
Christ went so far as to purposely permit His dear friend Lazarus to die and fester for four days before He went to him so that the miracle of a dead man's rebirth according to the will of God might be illustrated even more clearly...
"And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him." -- John 11:15
Christ came to save dead people, and save completely.
What is Ecclus. 15?
If that's true, then either God is responsible for the existence of sin, or there is no such thing as sin; and either way, the Bible would be lying when it talks about sin and sinners.
Moreover, the logical consequence of your comment is either that Christian doctrine is lying when it states that Jesus died to save us from our sins is either a lie; or that His life and sacrifice are completely irrelevant to human existence.
And, of course, if you're right, then trying to argue your point is UTTERLY meaningless -- it is completely impossible for you to change anybody's mind.
What silliness.
There is the Gospel!! Christ rescues the dead completely. We are “Lazarused” while we yet “stinketh”.
Well thank you. Of course I'd prefer to stick with thinking that any good thing I ever thought of, chose, and/or did came from God *8212; the thing, the thought, the choosing and the doing.
There is no middle ground.
I think you are so intent to make your point that you may be misunderstanding what others are saying. I already alluded to Phil 2:12-13 and I think I'll stay there — with both verses. Your saying there is no middle ground does not preclude the mystery of some kind of tertium quid, as far as I'm concerned. We have an exhortation in one verse and a statement of where the hearing, intended obedience and actual obedience come from in the next verse.
And that means we have the problem of wondering if it's right to say, "Paul was predestined to urge in one verse, and probably to care that his urging be heeded, but his urging makes no difference since the salvation of his hearers was also predestined."
As to your mentioning "foreknowledge," am I correct in guessing that you hold God to be bound by time? This is not only implied in the use of the word foreknowledge but I think I understood (or misunderstood?) you to say that if there were freedom then God wouldn't know what was going to happen.
Now I don't think that follows even if God is bound by time. I certainly have no control over my cats, but I often know what they're going to do because I know them pretty well.
But also I think all times are "now" to God, so He does not foresee or foreknow, but sees and knows.
(And this is the point where somebody says, "Knowing (or seeing) isn't causing.")
But it seems that your saying that Aquinas (as presented by stfa) makes the devil equal to God follows in your thought from the possibility that God might not foreknow what's going to happen, so it seems relevant to bring up the notion of eternality.
If you love Him, then you have been captured by Him. Is that not better than saying, “Whoo. At least I chose Him and those feelthy pagans deserve hell because they reject Him.” Then you really aren’t as bad as them, right?
Yes to the capture. The love I have for God is God acting in my heart. But if the "Whoo!" part is meant to represent the thinking and feeling of ALL those who believe that the words "Free Will" have a place in Christian thought, then I think it is inaccurate. By myself, I am as bad as that, or worse and I deserve hell.
I think the eagerness to (a) give God the glory and (b) have a coherent theological system leads to an unjustified denigration of those who have another view and to a host of problems, chief among which is the difficulty in explaining the difference between a saint and a robot.
(Not that there aren't also many difficulties with the other side.)
God gives the hands, the desire to open the hands, the opening of the hands, and the clutching of the gift to the bosom. To desire a good thing is a gift, an action which God initiated.
I think what I meant by "bound to the discussion" was that, while we Catholics speak of "merit", we believe (or ought to, maybe some don't) that the "merit" is a gift piled on top of the gift of a good work.
It was in fact always Catholic teaching ... that even the so-called "meritorious acts" which the redeemed perform in a state of justice are only "meritorious by grace," attributable, that is, to the love of Christ working in us and through us.Karl Adams, Root of the Reformation
I have read the Blessed Augustine and I can give many like the following....
""God both created man with the free choice of his will, and, by giving him commandments, teaches him, Himself, how man ought to live; and indeed assists him, in that He takes away his ignorance by instructing him in the knowledge of what he ought to avoid and to desire in his actions: and thus, by means of the free-will naturally implanted within him, he enters on the way which is pointed out to him, and by persevering in a just and pious course of life, deserves to attain to the blessedness of eternal life.""-Augustine on the Spirit and Letter Chapter4
Blessed Augustine was Completely Catholic as well and loved the Church and the Sacraments.
I just love the following Augustine prayer to Our Lady of Mercy. Perhaps you should pray it yourself since you love Blessed Augustine as well?Notice the part where he says The Blessed Mother gives consent-you can NOT give consent to such love without consenting it freely,Dear Friend
Prayer to Our Lady of Mercy - St. Augustine of Hippo Blessed Virgin Mary,
Who can worthily repay you with praise and thanks for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent!
Receive our gratitude, and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to make our peace with God.
Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God.
May all who venerate you feel now your help and protection. Be ready to help us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it your continual concern to pray for the people of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns forever.
I’m not at the end of my life (I HOPE) and i love God and have chosen Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour (for 40 years now). I have the assurance that I am His and that I will be with Him for eternity. Born again believers do not have to wait until they die to know if they will spend eternity with Jesus. We sin, we confess our sin and God cleanses us from all unrighteousness. No need to do anything else but live the life He’s called us to. Keep repenting, keep confessing. Love, M
God IS love, but He is also a God of justice, as we will find out on judgement day.
AMEN, Dutchboy.
He is the Creator and Master of Satan and directed Him to torment Job. Yes, at some time prior He had found sin in Satan and cast that monster out of heaven. But, was this all well-orchestrated or was it a complete surprise to God? Keep in mind, for Satan to have a “free will”, God must not, cannot, know what he is about to do. Otherwise His foreknowledge views that which is inescapably about to occur, a single history unfolding. And this requires that He cause it to unfold.
If He is viewing multiple possibilities, but doesn't know which one will transpire, we are stuck with the problem of how God always knows what is about to happen. We can't have it both ways.
The Bible is surely not lying when it speaks of sin & sinners. The existence of sin tells us there are sins & sinners. But, how does that preclude God managing it all? Do you think when Isaiah wrote that God was about to bring the calamity upon Israel as judgment for their hard hearts, this is not part of God moving evil to judge evil?
And, where, you will ask, did the hard hearts come from? From God, of course, the way He hardened Pharaoh's heart. Does this make Him guilty? According to Him, NO. I don't know how He does it, but He says He is Holy, and evil is not. But, without question evil is a “thing” that is in His universe and under His authority.
Next, the “logical consequence” of my comments. I don't follow why you think Jesus cannot die to save us from our sins. I am doing a poor job of explaining that evil exists and Jesus is vanquishing it. It is certainly not a lie. He is both the Just and the Justifier of sinners. He is the Creator and the Rescuer. He is the Writer, Producer, Director, and Major Actor in this great drama displaying His glory, not mine or yours.
And, finally, my silliness. Yes, of course, you are correct. I will not, cannot, change a single mind. Do you believe that you persuade men to change their hearts and minds and trust Christ to save them from eternal loss? Most of the folks I visit with say, “Well, no, I wouldn't go that far. That is the Holy Spirit's work.” Okay, that is precisely what I am saying the Bible teaches. Why is that silliness?
If God is ultimately moving in mysterious ways to soften my heart and cling to Christ for rescue, why must I demand that it be initiated by me to be real? What exactly is the great objection here to a God who is really God overall? Why must we have a little yin/yang, a little Dark Side/Good Side struggle when the Bible makes it clear that, “Surely, as I have planned it, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand” Is. 14:24.
I apologize if this comes to you as meaningless. We are called to speak the truth in love and leave the changing to God. And, I certainly don't want to encourage someone to lay on the sofa and burp, because nothing means anything. My job is to inform that men are not the “free” creatures they would love to believe, but rather in bondage to a will that God is managing, some to glory, some to destruction.
Here is one small test to demonstrate something about what the Bible is claiming. If you really have “free” will, then try your hardest for one hour to never sin. You are quite probably a believer so you have the Holy Spirit; you should have an advantage. So here you go, to not ever take your whole heart, and soul, and mind off the Creator. Make sure it is perfect reverence, obedience, purity, holiness, morality, kindness, compassion, and love without a stain or blemish. Never, not even for a nanosecond, wander in your thoughts to something less than the glory of God. This is the way Jesus thought. You believe you are “free”. So, give it a try; let's see if you are “free”. As Paul said, “I can picture it, I just cannot do it. But thanks be to God that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.” Okay, that is a paraphrase of Rom. 7 & 8, but it explains the great capture we are experiencing in Christ. We are forgiven, clothed in His righteousness, not ours.
Or you could think that evil is the privation of good, that it is not a "thing" and not a creature.
Keep in mind, for Satan to have a “free will”, God must not, cannot, know what he is about to do. Otherwise His foreknowledge views that which is inescapably about to occur, a single history unfolding. And this requires that He cause it to unfold.
Knowing isn't causing.
I will not, cannot, change a single mind.
This is not meant as a "gotcha", not at all. But if only God can change minds and the rest, why does Paul exhort?
Meaning that sin is God's will. A rather odd definition of sin....
I don't follow why you think Jesus cannot die to save us from our sins.
Because they're not "our" sins -- you said so yourself. Moreover, according to your logic, Jesus offers no actual 'salvation,' either, because God has allegedly already decided on who's saved or not.
What you're engaged in here really is silly. The Bible makes quite, quite clear that our decisions and actions matter to God -- and he doesn't "always" make them for us.
Here in the real world, the best we can do is say, "God is sovereign, we are responsible, and what's in the middle is a mystery."
You're clearly trying to get rid of that mystery -- and as a result you're forced to dismiss great swathes of Scripture.
Live and do what? Continue on the viscous cycle of the same sins over and over?
The goal is humility,Dear sister. It is through humility and sanctifying grace that we avoid sin and we see the temptations before they come,thus making us to hate evil and sin and love goodness with passion that we would be able to drink death like water.
Dear Sister,It is our sin the separates us from being united COMPLETELY with Christ.
How is it that you have special knowledge of your personal future salvation and may not ever fall?
This is what scripture teaches on this....
Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?
1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).
1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).
Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?
1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.
1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.
1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).
1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory “once saved, always saved.”
2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.
2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.
Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.
Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.
Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.
Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If “once saved, always saved” were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?
From Scripturecatholic.com
Who is demanding that something be initiated by "me"?
ALL of us fall into sin but we don’t have to stay there. When we do, we repent, we confess our sin to God and He cleanses us of all unrighteousness. When you quote me, please quote the entire sentence, not stop where you want to. I do have the assurance of my salvation. I’m not worried about going to hell because Christ did it all on the cross for me, yesterday, today and tomorrow. That IS humility, to know HE did it and I had nothing to do with it. Assurance is not arrogance, which most Catholics seem to believe about born again believers. I do hate sin, especially my own, and I do what I can to change my behaviour, attitudes, etc. God knows that and that’s why I need a saviour.
Blessings, Mary
AMEN.
I love the chapter of John 11, and I hadn't really read it thoroughly until fairly recently.
In it we learn Mary and Martha at first were shocked by Jesus' tarrying, knowing Lazarus was ill and only Jesus had the ability to save him.
But John tells us Jesus purposely waited four days in order for Lazarus actually to die so that Jesus could raise him not from his sick bed, but from the grave!
That's rebirth by God, through God, for God. All of God; none of man. Grace, and not debt.
AMEN.
I love the chapter of John 11, and I hadn't really read it thoroughly until fairly recently.
In it we learn Mary and Martha at first were shocked by Jesus' tarrying, knowing Lazarus was ill and only Jesus had the ability to save him.
But John tells us Jesus purposely waited four days in order for Lazarus actually to die so that Jesus could raise him not from his sick bed, but from the grave!
That's rebirth by God, through God, for God. All of God; none of man. Grace, and not debt.
And He wept. When He witnessed the grief, the Son of Man wept.
I wonder if He felt somehow sorry or bad about the fact that He had put them through the misery. They had the faith to know Jesus could save Lazarus, but now that he had died, would He?
Amazing, really.
And He wept. When He witnessed the grief, the Son of Man wept.
I wonder if He felt somehow sorry or bad about the fact that He had put them through the misery. They had the faith to know Jesus could save Lazarus, but now that he had died, would He?
Amazing, really.
Or do you disagree with that? Does Satan have the power to destroy irrespective of God's will?
What a truly frightening world it would be to think that God is not in control of all of it, the good and the bad.
The truth is that for Christians, God works even the bad things in life for our good, one way or another, just as God's word tells us...
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." -- Romans 8:28
If you believe in a Jesus Christ who has second thoughts, who thinks He made a mistake, whose every action, thought and purpose did not come from the Triune God above, then, my FRiend, we worship different Christs.
Christ wept because He loved Lazarus, and his death and the sorrow of his family moved Christ to tears. But Christ knew what He was doing...and why.
"And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there (to save Lazarus' life), to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him." -- John 11:15
By your analogy original sin is not our fault either and Christ suffered on the cross for the sins He created.
This is the thinking of a demoniacally possessed person
Not so, according to DutchBoy.
What a truly frightening world it would be to think that God is not in control of all of it, the good and the bad.
Which leaves two possibilities: He is either in control of the sin to the point of directing it, which is contrary to what you said above; or he decides to let people commit sin on their own... in which case you've opened the door for free will.
We agree that God could control everything, should He so desire. But because there is undoubted and widespread sin in the world, it's rather apparent that He has chosen not to do so.
The truth is that for Christians, God works even the bad things in life for our good, one way or another....
Which is fine, but says nothing about free will, sin, or any of the "full control" aspects of DutchBoy's post.
I am not sure why you CONTINUE to have this false view of what Catholics believe, other then to have a favorite strawman to attack, after being told over and over again "this is not what we believe". I myself have posted to you at least a dozen time on this very subjects, my dear madam.
I am not going to revisit the same things over and over again with the same people. If they didn't get it the first "dozen times", why would I think they would pick up on it the "13th" time? It would be merely argumentative to continue that conversation, and the Lord does not want me to do that. A simple view of the Catechism proves your idea of Catholicism is not true, and I have no desire to again and again repost the evidence.
Believe what you want, but you will have to answer for bearing false witness.
Regards
You are mistaking the "wicked's" view of self-control and not needing God with the middle ground - the belief that God gives us free will and what we do is merely a return of His gifts. The Scriptures speak of synergism, and this does not mean that we contribute 1% and God 99%. We owe God for EVERY good gift we are given, both natural and supernatural. And as the parable of the Talents, we are expected to USE those gifts that He gives us.
Paul repeatedly denounces this man-made philosophy beginning in the letter to the Romans, “...there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, together they have become worthless...” Rom.3:11,12.
Romans 3 is a long list of the failings of the Jews as DAVID mentions in the various Psalms. The context clearly is not making absolute cases, but rather, that even the Jews sin and are not free from sin, even with the written Law. You are mentioning hyperbole and trying to state it as doctrine. Paul also mentions that men DO seek God (Hebrews 6, for example) and that man can come to know God (Eph 3, for example). Ignoring one side of the paradox leads to error, my friend.
Your devotion to God is admirable. The question as to its origin is what is on the table. Your philosophers claim it is you, thanks to your “free will”.
No, I don't attribute my devotion to God to my own "free will" separate from God. God moves my will, but leaves me with free will to reject God. This free will itself is a gift from God, not of my own making.
God did what He could, but lucky for Him, you decided to turn. OR according to Paul, you did not seek Him, but He sought you, took you from your toe-tag dead state, blew life into your lifeless state, and said, “LIVE”. He took out your heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh. Jer. 31.
Both are true (accept that "God is lucky"). It's not an "either/or". God has given commands, which implies we have the ability to do them - or not. Scriptures over and over point to this fact - and even Jesus weeps over Jerusalem who would NOT accept Him and would be destroyed as a result. Paul says man can know God and are without excuse, even the Gentiles.
Your desire to maintain God's Sovereignty is admirable, but ill-placed, more suited to the Muslim rather than the Christian. Christians believe that God loves man so much that He gives man free will, allowing them to be secondary causes and allow them to love in response. There is no love where there is no free will.
Regards
A god who is not in control of his creation is an irresponsible creator.
I'll take the sovereign God of all that exists any day of the week.
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold,[1] direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,[2] from the greatest even to the least,[3] by His most wise and holy providence,[4] according to His infallible foreknowledge,[5] and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,[6] to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[7] II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9] III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure. IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;[14] and that not by a bare permission,[15] but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,[16] and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;[17] yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[18] V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;[19] and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.[20] VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,[21] from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;[22] but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,[23] and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[24] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[25] whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.[26] VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[27
Of Providence
Thank you,Joe.I could not even begin to explain what Eucharistic Adoration has meant in my life and those I pray for.
I'm beginning to see that an hour a week is not enough and find myself trying to clear more of my time to spend with our Lord in the most Blessed Sacrament.
Gads. I forgot who I was talking to.
Sorry I brought it up. I forgot that you know everything.
My mistake.
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