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Cardinal: Some not satisfied even after pope's Tridentine Mass decree [Catholic Caucus]
CNS ^ | September 16, 2008 | Cindy Wooden

Posted on 09/16/2008 4:28:24 PM PDT by NYer

ROME (CNS) -- Rather than being grateful, some people have reacted to Pope Benedict XVI's wider permission for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass with further demands, said Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos.

The cardinal, president of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei," spoke Sept. 16 at a conference marking the first anniversary of "Summorum Pontificum," the document by which Pope Benedict expanded access to the Tridentine rite, the Mass rite used before the Second Vatican Council.

Cardinal Castrillon, whose commission works with communities using the old rite, said his office continues to receive letters requesting the Tridentine rite be used not just at one Mass a week but at every Mass, and that such Masses be available not just at one church in a town but at every church.

He said he even got a letter demanding that Rome's Basilica of St. Mary Major be dedicated exclusively to the celebration of the Tridentine-rite Mass.

Such people, he said, are "insatiable, incredible."

"They do not know the harm they are doing," Cardinal Castrillon said, adding that when the Vatican does not accept their demands immediately "they go directly to the Internet" and post their complaints.

The cardinal and officials in his office have been saying for more than a year now that they were preparing detailed instructions responding to questions about how to implement the papal document, which said the Mass in the new Roman Missal, introduced in 1970, remains the ordinary way of Catholic worship.

Asked about the status of those detailed instructions, Cardinal Castrillon told Catholic News Service that his office had completed its work and passed the draft on to the pope, who would make the final decision about its publication.

In addition to responding to the desire of Catholics who wanted more frequent and easier access to Mass celebrated in the old rite, the pope's 2007 document was seen as a major step toward reconciliation with the followers of the late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who was excommunicated when he ordained four bishops against the express wishes of Pope John Paul II.

But the process of reconciliation broke down in late June when Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior of the Society of St. Pius X and one of the four bishops ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre, failed to meet four conditions posed by Cardinal Castrillon for moving the process forward.

"The Eucharist should never become a point of contrast and a point of separation," Cardinal Castrillon said at the Sept. 16 conference. "What is more important: the mystery of God who becomes bread or the language by which we celebrate the mystery?"

The cardinal said the Mass -- in whatever language it is celebrated -- must be a service motivated by love and "never a sword" used against other Christians.

By making it easier for priests to celebrate the older liturgy and for the faithful to have access to it, he said, "the vicar of Christ (the pope) was not just exercising his task of governing, but was exercising his task of sanctifying" the people of God.

"When we are before the greatest expression of love for humanity -- the Eucharist -- how can we fight?" Cardinal Castrillon asked.


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: latin; tlm; tridentine

1 posted on 09/16/2008 4:28:26 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Pope Benedict XVI addressed this with in his final homily this week at Lourdes. He told the bishops there must be room for everyone to celebrate the liturgy respectfully but that the Church would not revert back to pre VCII days (or words to that effect). Some people, as the Cardinal has noted, are never satisfied.


2 posted on 09/16/2008 4:32:38 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer; Saint Athanasius
Such people, he said, are "insatiable, incredible."

I hope he was not surprised by this.

3 posted on 09/16/2008 4:35:24 PM PDT by rhinohunter
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To: NYer
This story is a bit strange. There is a much bigger problem in the reception of Summorum Pontificum, and it is not from traditionalists.

There is still a de facto ban on the Extraordinary Form in most dioceses. Even when a priest knows how to offer this form of the Mass, he is often prevented from doing so through unlawful "tests" which bishops have imposed, or through simple intimidation.

There needs to be a lot more generosity on the part of bishops before I will believe that a few cranks who complain on blogs no one reads is some sort of crisis.

4 posted on 09/16/2008 4:38:35 PM PDT by B Knotts (Calvin Coolidge Republican)
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To: NYer
if it's not in Latin, it's NOT Mass... it's just Church.
5 posted on 09/16/2008 4:56:12 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - McCain/Palin'08 = http://www.johnmccain.com/)
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To: NYer

I love the Latin Mass and have joined a parish where it is used exclusively. But, I don’t want it to totally supplant the Novus Ordo for fear that the most liberal will still inject their beloved rituals into the Mass such as receiving communion in the hand or bowing the head rather than genuflecting. Not to mention the Sign of Peace or the Protestant Our Father. No, make the Latin Mass readily available to those who choose it, but don’t shove it down the charismatics’ throats.


6 posted on 09/16/2008 5:08:24 PM PDT by Dionysius
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To: NYer

Until the Mass is celebrated in the original Aramaic the outrageous modernist scandal will continue! ;-)


7 posted on 09/16/2008 5:16:23 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (The cosmos is about the smallest hole a man can stick his head in. - Chesterton)
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To: Chode

Bull!

Or should I say Bos Taurus!

I find Mass in Latin to be a wonderful experience, but my normal Mass in English is just as valid.


8 posted on 09/16/2008 5:18:38 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: Alas Babylon!
it's valid, it's just not Mass. guess it's just the old school alter boy in me.
9 posted on 09/16/2008 5:22:47 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - McCain/Palin'08 = http://www.johnmccain.com/)
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To: NYer

Create a separate jurisdiction within the Latin Rite for the Gregorian Usage and be done with it.


10 posted on 09/16/2008 5:23:21 PM PDT by wiley
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

Lol! (Legalism and self-righteousness will always be a temptation....)

;-)


11 posted on 09/16/2008 5:25:33 PM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: SumProVita

“Legalism and self-righteousness will always be a temptation....)”

It’s not legalism to prefer Latin.

The enemies of the Church damaged her tremendously by “translating” things to say what they wanted them to say, rather than what they actually say.

Latin is a safeguard against that. A common language for the Church is of immeasurable value.


12 posted on 09/16/2008 8:16:08 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc

Latin in the Mass is what it is.
Vernacular in the Mass is whatever the “translators” or the ad libbers want it to be.


13 posted on 09/16/2008 9:19:58 PM PDT by rogator
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To: NYer

As an agnostic that can recite the “Sucipiot” (sp), The Catholic Church lost credibility when it ditched the Latin Mass, IMVHO.


14 posted on 09/16/2008 9:26:40 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: gorush
This thread is tagged "Catholic Caucus" in the Religion Forum. If you are not Catholic, do not post here.

For more guidelines pertaining to the Religion Forum, click on my profile page.

15 posted on 09/16/2008 9:35:48 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

I was an altar boy for 4 years...does that count.


16 posted on 09/16/2008 9:38:44 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: Chode

So, Jesus Christ used Latin when he said the first Mass?

Did he use Latin during the crucifixion?


17 posted on 09/16/2008 9:42:59 PM PDT by It's me
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To: gorush

Well, the Latin Mass is back. Check in your area for one.


18 posted on 09/16/2008 10:53:48 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Chode
it's just the old school alter boy in me

If you indeed used to serve Mass then you'd know that you were an altar boy. Perhaps you really are an alter boy.

19 posted on 09/17/2008 4:20:15 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: gorush

LOL...your post made me chuckle, gorush, because my older boy serves the TLM at our parish (Deo Gratias!) and the response to “Orate Fratres” (the Suscipiat) was the one response that drove him totally batty.

It IS a difficult one to memorize and I tip my hat to you for doing so.

Regards,


20 posted on 09/17/2008 4:29:29 AM PDT by VermiciousKnid
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To: dsc

I don’t believe I said anything about a preference for Latin being legalism. I happen to love Latin (hence my screen name) and the I love the Tridentine Mass. I also agree with you regarding poor translations, though that is being repaired by Pope Benedict.

The legalism I refer to is that which some espouse...attempting to claim that the Novus Ordo is invalid, etc.


21 posted on 09/17/2008 4:57:12 AM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: B Knotts

The fact that some bishops are dragging their feet on implementing the motu proprio doesn’t justify the demands of the traditionalists to whom Pope Benedict XVI and Cardinal Castrillon were referring. These people aren’t going to be satisfied unless the Church repudiates the newer form of the Roman Rite and their unreasonable demands and bad behavior give ammunition to bishops who are unhappy with the motu proprio.


22 posted on 09/17/2008 5:04:14 AM PDT by steadfastconservative
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To: Chode

And that makes you more Catholic than the Pope.


23 posted on 09/17/2008 5:41:02 AM PDT by djrakowski
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To: B Knotts
This story is a bit strange. There is a much bigger problem in the reception of Summorum Pontificum, and it is not from traditionalists.

I agree. However, the story is from CNS, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the USCCB, and I believe I recognize the writer as one unsympathetic to the TLM. Also, it wasn't clear from the report that it reflected the whole talk or even (I have a suspicious mind when it comes to CNS/USCCB) if the Cardinal spoke those words spontaneously or was goaded into it by a question.

24 posted on 09/17/2008 5:56:34 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Chode
if it's not in Latin, it's NOT Mass... it's just Church.

How about Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus Christ, His Blessed Mother and the Apostles? That's what I hear at Mass on Sunday.

25 posted on 09/17/2008 6:04:31 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
Until the Mass is celebrated in the original Aramaic the outrageous modernist scandal will continue! ;-)

You have some truly beautiful Chaldean and Maronite Catholic Churches out in CA, both of which retain Aramaic as part of their Divine Liturgy.

26 posted on 09/17/2008 6:07:37 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: SumProVita

:I don’t believe I said anything about a preference for Latin being legalism.”

I see. It seemed to me that you were.

“I also agree with you regarding poor translations”

I don’t think they were poor translations; I think they were deliberate, malicious mistranslations.


27 posted on 09/17/2008 7:09:55 AM PDT by dsc
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To: rogator

“Latin in the Mass is what it is.
Vernacular in the Mass is whatever the “translators” or the ad libbers want it to be.”

Veritas.


28 posted on 09/17/2008 7:12:40 AM PDT by dsc
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To: NYer
There's also a Tridentine Mass that I have attended at one of the old missions. A truly inspiring experience.

I'll have to look into the Aramaic masses though. I still felt a bet queasy going to that newfangled Latin mass that wasn't developed until centuries after the Last Supper. ;-)

29 posted on 09/17/2008 9:59:27 AM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear (The cosmos is about the smallest hole a man can stick his head in. - Chesterton)
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To: dsc

Not to mention that now every language says something different from every other language.


30 posted on 09/17/2008 10:07:28 AM PDT by ichabod1 (It's all fun and games until Russia starts invading Eastern Europe (pete))
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To: NYer

Is the Divine Liturgy very long? I happen to live within two or three miles of the Houston Maronite Church, and I have been wanting to go sometime. I’m a bit stifled in my Catholic walk right now — I don’t want to have to do a thirty mile round trip to get a decent liturgy, but my geo parish and the next nearest one SUCK eggs, big time. I know you’ve posted about the liturgy before, but if you could say just a few words, I’d greatly appreciate it.


31 posted on 09/17/2008 10:13:47 AM PDT by ichabod1 (It's all fun and games until Russia starts invading Eastern Europe (pete))
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
I'll have to look into the Aramaic masses though.

Though RC, I am a member of a Maronite Catholic parish. The Divine Liturgy is in English, except for the entrance dialogue, certain prayers and the Consecration, which is in Aramaic. To hear the priest chant the words of our Lord in His language, is like being at the Last Supper. You can learn a little about the Maronite liturgy at this link.

The Story of the Maronite Catholics

32 posted on 09/17/2008 10:18:35 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

One of the main reasons I loved the Passion of the Christ so much was hearing the aramaic and street latin being spoken in conversation. I don’t know if it was all historically correct or not, but they were certainly well versed in their dialogue, and it was a blast for an amateur linguist like myself.


33 posted on 09/17/2008 1:40:15 PM PDT by ichabod1 (It's all fun and games until Russia starts invading Eastern Europe (pete))
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To: dsc

Maybe they were deliberate....and maybe not. I prefer to think positive(since I have no conclusive evidence)and let God sort it all out.

;-)


34 posted on 09/17/2008 2:23:07 PM PDT by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
i did, i was and i prolly still am in some respects
35 posted on 09/17/2008 3:13:51 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - McCain/Palin'08 = http://www.johnmccain.com/)
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To: NYer
that would be interesting...
36 posted on 09/17/2008 3:22:25 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - McCain/Palin'08 = http://www.johnmccain.com/)
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To: VermiciousKnid; gorush

Hey, I learned the Suscipiat as a young adult several years ago, it was difficult to memorize for me too.


37 posted on 09/17/2008 3:31:53 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Pyro7480; VermiciousKnid
"Hey, I learned the Suscipiat as a young adult several years ago, it was difficult to memorize for me too."

I learned it in 5th grade and for some sick reason have retained it (I'm in my late 50's). Two years later, after almost 2000 years, they changed the Mass to English. At least I had God's phone number...et cum spiri 220.

38 posted on 09/17/2008 3:36:48 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: ichabod1; Chode
One of the main reasons I loved the Passion of the Christ so much was hearing the aramaic and street latin being spoken in conversation. I don’t know if it was all historically correct or not, but they were certainly well versed in their dialogue, and it was a blast for an amateur linguist like myself.

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his of her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration, as do the Syro-Malankara Catholics from India. If you have the opportunity, I would encourage you to attend Mass at one of these Churches and experience the Consecration chanted in the language of Jesus Christ, His Blessed Mother and the Apostles.

39 posted on 09/17/2008 4:38:21 PM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer
thank you... very interesting indeed.
40 posted on 09/17/2008 4:58:36 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - McCain/Palin'08 = http://www.johnmccain.com/)
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To: It's me

I don’t think so but Pilate might have.


41 posted on 09/18/2008 5:09:34 AM PDT by steadfastconservative
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