Posted on 09/20/2008 9:13:40 AM PDT by ravenwolf
Question: When was anyone ever appointed to the position of an elder?
Titus 1:5 ¶For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
It has been my contention for a long time that Peter and the rest acted irrationally and impetuously in Acts 1. They had yet to receive the Holy Spirit, and so were acting on their own. Jesus told them to wait, but they didn’t. Jesus already had an apostle in mind with Paul, but Peter thought he HAD to do something.
I disagree. Note what Paul writes in 1Cor 15:
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
Jesus Christ appeared to the “twelve” after his resurrection. Who was this twelfth? Judas was already dead, and Paul is not one of the twelve for in verse 8 of this same chapter he says:
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
If one believes that 1Cor 15:1-8 is inspired scripture, then it stands to reason that these “twelve” are also recognized by the Holy Spirit. Therefore it must be Mathias, the one that the 11 apostles appointed to take Judas’ place.
Something to consider.
I respectfully disagree. When refering to any of the apostles, it was as “one of the twelve” differentiating from the rest of the disciples. Judas was counted as one of those. When it said that Jesus say Cephas “one of the twelve” it doesn’t say he SAW the twelve, but saw Cephas, one of the twelve. Jesus was seen by about 500 people after his resurrection, not just the twelve.
Consider this verse:
Acts 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Who is included in this group of twelve? Paul wasn’t saved yet, so he’s not the twelfth. Judas is dead, so the writer of Acts (Luke) also acknowledges that there is a “twelfth” apostle. I believe this is another testimony that the decision to choose a replacement for Judas was the right one.
I have never doubted that Mathias was “counted” as one of the new twelve. I just believe that Peter was in error in doing what he did. That’s all. God had Paul in mind if there were going to be any replacement.
That brings out another question. If Apostolic Succession was to be infered because of Peter’s actions... where are the OTHER eleven apostles now? Assuming, of course, that the Pope is the apostle of this era. Shouldn’t there be twelve at ALL TIMES? In other words, Apostolic Succession never happened after Acts 1, did it?
Actually, we are probably on the same side. I don’t believe in “Apostolic Succession” as the RCC teaches. However, I do believe that it was the fulfillment of scripture that Matthias be chosen, and that Paul was an apostle “born out of due time”.
Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
I personally believe that there are no apostles today b/c there are no eyewitnesses of the resurrection. Also, they were used of God to give us the NT scriptures and that was the end of “divine inspiration”.
he was not ordaining anyone to be elders, he was ordaining elders to the office of deacons and bishops
I will have to agree with irishtenor but thanks for the comment and I was just wondering about some of the churches having apostles that never witnesed the resurrection.
Men today seek offices out of vain glory. Bishops were elders in the community. If you look at the history of the Church it is structured after the Roman military layer upon layer of authority. You can give credit or blame to Constantine for that one.
I don't follow your point - why does Apostolic Succession have to be limited to 12 men? Further, Apostolic Succession means that one is the successor of the Apostles, not an Apostle themselves. The Apostles were Bishops, but Bishops are not Apostles.
Let me ask you a question in response. If there was no need of Apostolic Succession, why did Paul receive the laying on of hands - the same rite the Church uses to ordain men today? Why would Paul exhort Timothy to be patient in deciding to lay hands upon men, if it is merely a blessing?
"Apostolic succession" means that bishops get their office and authority from the Apostles through a series of valid ordinations, not that the bishops themselves are Apostles.
The last Apostle was St. John, who died around AD 92. There haven't been any since then, but there is a continuous succession of bishops in the church since that time.
(This is of course the Catholic/Orthodox/trad Anglican view. The Mormon view is entirely another thing.)
****I don’t follow your point - why does Apostolic Succession have to be limited to 12 men? ****
If Peter did the correct thing of choosing a successor for the one who was now departed, then 12 is the number and they have to alway have 12. When one goes you choose another to maintain the correct number. So... if Apostolic Succession was the way to go, we should have 12 today, not just the one (Pope).
But all this is moot. Why is having 12 necessary?
Just what Christ loves, Christians arguing about Scripture.
The point is that once Matthias is an apostle, he is fully an apostle. So, we know that the apostles can appoint replacement apostles. And since a replacement apostle is fully apostles, he could then do anything an original apostle could do... including taking part in appointing a replacement apostle.
>> Judas was counted as one of those. <<
He was until he died. After that, the bible still refers to the twelve, but the twelve now evidently includes Matthias, and not Judas:
“Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples [unto them], and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.” (Acts 6:2)
The point is that once Matthias is an apostle, he is fully an apostle.
act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
It has been my contention for a long time that Peter and the rest acted irrationally
We have more from paul than any of the other apostles, because they were not destroyed, however the other apostles if they were in other places would have wrote to jeruslem i imagine and those letters would have a lot more chance of being destroyed.
I think peter knew just what he was doing when he said they must appoint another one to take judas,s place.
Just my thoughts.
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