PANAGIA PLATYTERA
"He Whom not even the universe could contain was contained within the womb of a virgin, making her more spacious than the Heavens."
Posted on 09/25/2008 4:37:57 PM PDT by NYer
LOURDES, France, SEPT. 25, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Devotion to the Virgin Mary has an essential role in ecumenical dialogue and the journey to full and visible unity among Christians, says the president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.
Cardinal Walter Kasper affirmed this Wednesday when he presided over an ecumenical celebration in Lourdes, where Anglicans and Catholics had joined on pilgrimage. Anglican Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury gave the homily at the event. The pilgrimage began at the Anglican shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham in England.
"Lourdes is known for its miracles," Cardinal Kasper said. "Who would have imagined, only 20 or 30 years ago, that Catholics and Anglicans would go on pilgrimage and pray together?
"For those who are familiar with the debates and controversies of the past on Mary, between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians, for those who know the reservations of the non-Catholic world toward Marian pilgrimage sites, for all these people, today's unprecedented event is a miracle."
The cardinal contended that, in fact, Mary is an essential part of the ecumenical movement, though this topic "is neither common nor obvious among ecumenists."
History
Cardinal Kasper noted that Marian devotion is fully shared with the Orthodox Church. But, he continued, "Marian devotion also existed at the time of the Reformation."
"Luther fervently venerated Mary during his whole life, professing her, with the ancient creeds and Councils of the Church of the first millennium, as Virgin and Mother of God," he explained. "He was only critical of some practices, which he considered abuses and exaggerations. The same happened with the English reformers."
Cardinal Kasper clarified that the rejection of Marian doctrines actually took place during the Enlightenment, "in a spirit known as 'Mariological minimalism.'"
Nevertheless, the Vatican official affirmed, thanks to "a renewed reading and meditation of sacred Scripture, we observe a slow but decisive change." In this regard, he mentioned several joint statements of Catholics and Lutherans that point in this direction.
"Mary is not absent but present in ecumenical dialogue," he continued. "Churches have made progress in their approach on the doctrine of Our Lady. Our Lady no longer divides us, but reconciles and unites us in Christ her Son."
Present tensions
Cardinal Kasper expressed the hope that Our Lady would help Catholics and Anglicans overcome recently heightened tensions in dialogue. The Anglican Communion has moved closer to the episcopal ordination of women and it faces dissent within the communion regarding the ordination of practicing homosexuals.
The cardinal said the pilgrimage "can be considered as a positive and encouraging sign of hope, even a small miracle."
"There is reason to hope that Our Lady will help us overcome the present difficulties in our relations, so that with the help of God we will be able to continue our common ecumenical pilgrimage," he continued.
Cardinal Kasper referred to Mary as model of the Church, chosen by God from all eternity. He also noted the issue of salvation by divine grace and not by ones' own merits, clarifying that this is a point that no longer divides Christians.
Led to the cross
The Vatican official asserted that division among Christians arises "because our love and faith have weakened."
"Every time that the thinking of the world and its parameters stain the Church, the unity of the Church is endangered," he said.
But Mary, who he called an "example of a disciple," does not lead toward "what pleases everyone, but to the foot of the cross," he said. "Hence, let us take her as example, and in this way we will take steps forward in our ecumenical pilgrimage."
Finally, Cardinal Kasper referred to the question of the veneration of the Virgin and the saints, an issue that "still causes difficulties" among Protestants and Anglicans. "However," he affirmed, "as any mother would intercede for her children, and as every mother, after her death would intercede in heaven and from heaven, Mary also accompanies the Church on her pilgrimage," also "on the road toward unity."
May our Blessed Mother heal the rifts that divide us and lead us all to her Son, Jesus Christ.
I imagine she could if she were God. But, she is a person, nothing more. Wasn’t there a big thread on here lately explaining that technically no Catholic actually prays TO Mary, but somehow asks her to help them pray to God? Now, Catholics are asking Mary to act into history? Hmmm. Sounds like prayer to me.
There is one God and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus.
Nuff said!
Amen.
again, history apparently stopped for today’s protestants after the ressurection, and only began again after the luther’s disasterous deformation....
a thousand plus years of church history and those closest to the apostles, spread the teaching of christ and that included the teaching about Mary....until some middle ages heretical monk sent the ONE HOLY CATH0LIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH splintering into thousands of competing and fighting churches all claiming THEIR version of personal interpretation trumps the next guys chruch down the street....
Oops...look at that. I just prayed to you!
Do you see the distinction?
"He Whom not even the universe could contain was contained within the womb of a virgin, making her more spacious than the Heavens."
No. Your language here is similar to a lawyer saying, “I pray the court...” which doesn’t mean pray at all. It means “beseech” or “entreat” or “ask passionately.”
But, when you speak to a dead human to request them to act into the living history of man, you are attributing to them the characteristics of God. You are praying to them because there is no means of communicating with the dead that we mortals are instructed to use. You won’t find this in the Scriptures. If anything, at least one man who thought they were like the Most High was made to eat grass... check Nebuchudnezzar.
The Blessed Mother, read Luke 1:48, is the mother of the Word made flesh. Her unique role in the salvation of mankind shouldn't be dismissed so nonchalantly by the likes of people like you.
Thank you for admitting that the term "pray" has different meanings. A lot of people won't even get that far. I'll address the rest of your post point-by-point:
But, when you speak to a dead human to request them to act into the living history of man, you are attributing to them the characteristics of God
All we ask Saints is to pray for us - are we commanded to pray for each other? Further, we know that the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful. Who is more righteous than those who are with God? If a Catholic posts: "Blessed Mother, please bring all peoples to your Son, Amen" the request she pray to God for that objective is implicit in that entreatment (prayer).
You are praying to them because there is no means of communicating with the dead that we mortals are instructed to use. You won’t find this in the Scriptures.
I disagree. First, we must establish where the "dead" are. Assuming you do not believe in the "soul sleep," then where do those faithful who leave this realm go? They head to Heaven (ignoring other concepts for a moment). Okay, so then if they are still "alive in Christ," we cannot rightfully call them dead, can we? If they are in Heaven, we must now examine whether those in Heaven can hear us. If you believe the angels are in Heaven, then either they have some aspect of God's omnipotence or Heaven can hear us. The Psalmist commands angels constantly. Since angels are not God, it seems unlikely they are omnipotent. Thus Heaven must hear us.
Therefore, if the departed Faithful are alive in Christ and are in Heaven, and if the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful, why would you know ask the especially righteous in Heaven to entreat God on your behalf?
There are angels on earth as well...There is nothing in the scriptures that suggest angels in heaven can hear us...
All we ask Saints is to pray for us - are we commanded to pray for each other? Further, we know that the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful. Who is more righteous than those who are with God? If a Catholic posts: "Blessed Mother, please bring all peoples to your Son, Amen" the request she pray to God for that objective is implicit in that entreatment (prayer).
This is the argument you guys always use when accused of praying to Mary...
But what's funny is that some of the Catholics (on FR) deny praying to Mary while others (you) admit to praying to Mary and add justification...
I don't have a problem with you guys asking Mary or Heinrich Himmler (a Catholic) to pray for you...
What I and a few others object to is you guys kneeling to statues of Mary and asking her to send you some of God's grace...Or asking a 'Saint' to sell your house for you or to keep you safe on the highway...
AS we all know, there is a large element in your religion who are pushing to make Mary the 4th part of the Trinity...I'd say you guys are just a step away from it...
Therefore, if the departed Faithful are alive in Christ and are in Heaven, and if the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful, why would you know ask the especially righteous in Heaven to entreat God on your behalf?
There is no one in heaven who is more righteous than a born-again Christian on earth...
Psalm 103:
19 The LORD'S throne is established in heaven; God's royal power rules over all.
20 Bless the LORD, all you angels, mighty in strength and attentive, obedient to every command.
21 Bless the LORD, all you hosts, ministers who do God's will.
22 Bless the LORD, all creatures, everywhere in God's domain. Bless the LORD, my soul!
God's throne is established in Heaven. It is one part of His domain. The Psalmist is commanding creatures EVERYWHERE in His domain - not just the earthly realm.
Psalm 148:
1 Hallelujah! Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
2 Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise the LORD from the heavens, but the heavens cannot hear us? Interesting.
But what's funny is that some of the Catholics (on FR) deny praying to Mary while others (you) admit to praying to Mary and add justification...
Because the way many on this forum define "prayer" is a moving target. All Catholics would agree we "pray" to Saints, when "prayer" is understood to mean "ask." When some say, "No! Prayer is Worship!", then we (rightfully) admit that we do not "pray" to Saint, when "prayer" means "worship." When we bring in Latin terms clearly drawing the distinctions, we are accused of doublespeak. English is an awful language for theological discussion - German and Latin work much better.
I don't have a problem with you guys asking Mary or Heinrich Himmler (a Catholic) to pray for you...
The Nazi card? How insightful.
AS we all know, there is a large element in your religion who are pushing to make Mary the 4th part of the Trinity...I'd say you guys are just a step away from it...
Show me where any Catholic states Mary is equal to God - not what YOU think Catholics are saying. Again, English is a terrible language for theological discussion; the prefix co- is derived from the Latin, cum, meaning "with." Find any Latin dictionary for support.
There is no one in heaven who is more righteous than a born-again Christian on earth...
Ahh, pride. May God have mercy on me, a sinner. I did not post this response for you, since this has been discussed with you by countless people, but I hope some lurkers on these threads may understand the Church.
You raise a few good points. In particular, the prayer of the righteous...
And, no, I am not referring to “soul sleep” but rather those departed, whose souls are with Christ, awaiting the resurrection of the bodies. I think we are fairly close agreement about the state of a believer that leaves this earth. Except, of course, to that matter of purgatory. Tell me a little about your view of that with respect to those that have died in Christ (that is, real believers).
Let me ponder that matter about the David (or the other Psalmists) speaking to the angels. That is interesting.
I’m sorry - I’m not sure I understand your request. You want me to explain my thoughts on purgatory? If that is so, I am happy to do so - if I am mistaken, please, correct me, as I’d hate to sidetrack this conversation we are having. Thanks!
My apologies. Yes, tell me about your thoughts (or perhaps your understanding of the “official” view) on purgatory. The connection here is that there are apparently, according to RCC teaching, some departed believers that are being held in purgatory for an unspecified period. There are also those who have gone on to heaven, with Christ.
Is Mary in heaven or purgatory? Are others you would “speak” to (as opposed to “pray” to) also in purgatory or must it only be to those in heaven?
And I am still thinking about the angels matter.
But, if you don’t mind, your comments would not sidetrack this conversation. And, there are no trick questions here. Unfortunately, I must leave for the evening, but I’ll check back tomorrow to see what you think. Grace be with you.
So, once we have passed on, what happens to the stains of sin that we have placed on ourselves? "Nothing unclean can enter" God's presence, and Heaven is certainly God's presence. Time and again, the Scripture speaks of "purification by fire." This is what we call purgatory - the final purification before we enter Heaven.
Also, the Scripture teaches that the living can atone for the dead. (2 Macc 12:46). If the dead are in Heaven, what good does atonement do? Same question if they are already condemned.
There are also those who have gone on to heaven, with Christ.
The length of Purgatory depends on the sins of the departed. My assumption is that the time a 12 year old spends in purgatory is markedly shorter than someone who lived a life of pleasure and sincerely repented only on their deathbed - however, that is purely conjecture. The purification necessary is known to God alone.
Is Mary in heaven or purgatory?
There are some who have gone to Heaven without the need for purification. Elijah is probably the clearest example. Mary is another - the Church teaches that she was bodily assumed into Heaven. Assumption is not the same as ascension - the former is passive, the latter active. Only God can ascend to Heaven - it is an exercise of His Own power. Bringing others into Heaven is His assumption of them. You'll notice that, for all the importance we Catholics place on Saints and their stories and their relics (think St. Peter's Cathedral, built over St. Peter's tomb), we don't have any such place for Mary. Why? Because there is no history of her having been buried.
Are others you would “speak” to (as opposed to “pray” to) also in purgatory or must it only be to those in heaven?
This one is tricky, and I'm not quite sure. I imagine those souls in purgatory can hear us the same as those in Heaven - purgatory is a part of God's dominion just as much as Heaven and Earth. Saints who are canonized are "known" to be in Heaven. It is quite a process for a person to be declared a Saint. Private devotions (for example, to departed family members) are certainly allowed, but I imagine the process of purification makes one more righteous. Thus, the entire rationale for asking the assistance of Saints is nullified. Souls in purgatory are likely just as righteous as I am. As we know with God, it is quality, not quantity.
You've gotten me pondering a number of things. I look forward to continuing this discussion tomorrow. Pax Christi.
Has nothing to do with pride...It has to do with believing what God says...
All our (and your Saint's) righteousness are as filthy rags...The only righteousness that counts is the righteousness that God gave us...His righteousness...
The failure to recognize this simple emphasis shift results in the most obvious heretical errors. If Mary gave Christ his humanity by an act of her will, she is the supporting mechanism, and Christ continues to be contained by her, supported by her, emanating from her, infinitum. This is clearly evidenced by the myriad works of art depicting Jesus as a perpetual child in the lap of Mary, suckling from Mary, drawing his life from Mary. Your posted picture and quote is a very telling example of this heresy.
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