PANAGIA PLATYTERA
"He Whom not even the universe could contain was contained within the womb of a virgin, making her more spacious than the Heavens."
Posted on 09/25/2008 4:37:57 PM PDT by NYer
LOURDES, France, SEPT. 25, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Devotion to the Virgin Mary has an essential role in ecumenical dialogue and the journey to full and visible unity among Christians, says the president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.
Cardinal Walter Kasper affirmed this Wednesday when he presided over an ecumenical celebration in Lourdes, where Anglicans and Catholics had joined on pilgrimage. Anglican Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury gave the homily at the event. The pilgrimage began at the Anglican shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham in England.
"Lourdes is known for its miracles," Cardinal Kasper said. "Who would have imagined, only 20 or 30 years ago, that Catholics and Anglicans would go on pilgrimage and pray together?
"For those who are familiar with the debates and controversies of the past on Mary, between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians, for those who know the reservations of the non-Catholic world toward Marian pilgrimage sites, for all these people, today's unprecedented event is a miracle."
The cardinal contended that, in fact, Mary is an essential part of the ecumenical movement, though this topic "is neither common nor obvious among ecumenists."
History
Cardinal Kasper noted that Marian devotion is fully shared with the Orthodox Church. But, he continued, "Marian devotion also existed at the time of the Reformation."
"Luther fervently venerated Mary during his whole life, professing her, with the ancient creeds and Councils of the Church of the first millennium, as Virgin and Mother of God," he explained. "He was only critical of some practices, which he considered abuses and exaggerations. The same happened with the English reformers."
Cardinal Kasper clarified that the rejection of Marian doctrines actually took place during the Enlightenment, "in a spirit known as 'Mariological minimalism.'"
Nevertheless, the Vatican official affirmed, thanks to "a renewed reading and meditation of sacred Scripture, we observe a slow but decisive change." In this regard, he mentioned several joint statements of Catholics and Lutherans that point in this direction.
"Mary is not absent but present in ecumenical dialogue," he continued. "Churches have made progress in their approach on the doctrine of Our Lady. Our Lady no longer divides us, but reconciles and unites us in Christ her Son."
Present tensions
Cardinal Kasper expressed the hope that Our Lady would help Catholics and Anglicans overcome recently heightened tensions in dialogue. The Anglican Communion has moved closer to the episcopal ordination of women and it faces dissent within the communion regarding the ordination of practicing homosexuals.
The cardinal said the pilgrimage "can be considered as a positive and encouraging sign of hope, even a small miracle."
"There is reason to hope that Our Lady will help us overcome the present difficulties in our relations, so that with the help of God we will be able to continue our common ecumenical pilgrimage," he continued.
Cardinal Kasper referred to Mary as model of the Church, chosen by God from all eternity. He also noted the issue of salvation by divine grace and not by ones' own merits, clarifying that this is a point that no longer divides Christians.
Led to the cross
The Vatican official asserted that division among Christians arises "because our love and faith have weakened."
"Every time that the thinking of the world and its parameters stain the Church, the unity of the Church is endangered," he said.
But Mary, who he called an "example of a disciple," does not lead toward "what pleases everyone, but to the foot of the cross," he said. "Hence, let us take her as example, and in this way we will take steps forward in our ecumenical pilgrimage."
Finally, Cardinal Kasper referred to the question of the veneration of the Virgin and the saints, an issue that "still causes difficulties" among Protestants and Anglicans. "However," he affirmed, "as any mother would intercede for her children, and as every mother, after her death would intercede in heaven and from heaven, Mary also accompanies the Church on her pilgrimage," also "on the road toward unity."
May our Blessed Mother heal the rifts that divide us and lead us all to her Son, Jesus Christ.
I imagine she could if she were God. But, she is a person, nothing more. Wasn’t there a big thread on here lately explaining that technically no Catholic actually prays TO Mary, but somehow asks her to help them pray to God? Now, Catholics are asking Mary to act into history? Hmmm. Sounds like prayer to me.
There is one God and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus.
Nuff said!
Amen.
again, history apparently stopped for today’s protestants after the ressurection, and only began again after the luther’s disasterous deformation....
a thousand plus years of church history and those closest to the apostles, spread the teaching of christ and that included the teaching about Mary....until some middle ages heretical monk sent the ONE HOLY CATH0LIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH splintering into thousands of competing and fighting churches all claiming THEIR version of personal interpretation trumps the next guys chruch down the street....
Oops...look at that. I just prayed to you!
Do you see the distinction?
"He Whom not even the universe could contain was contained within the womb of a virgin, making her more spacious than the Heavens."
No. Your language here is similar to a lawyer saying, “I pray the court...” which doesn’t mean pray at all. It means “beseech” or “entreat” or “ask passionately.”
But, when you speak to a dead human to request them to act into the living history of man, you are attributing to them the characteristics of God. You are praying to them because there is no means of communicating with the dead that we mortals are instructed to use. You won’t find this in the Scriptures. If anything, at least one man who thought they were like the Most High was made to eat grass... check Nebuchudnezzar.
The Blessed Mother, read Luke 1:48, is the mother of the Word made flesh. Her unique role in the salvation of mankind shouldn't be dismissed so nonchalantly by the likes of people like you.
Thank you for admitting that the term "pray" has different meanings. A lot of people won't even get that far. I'll address the rest of your post point-by-point:
But, when you speak to a dead human to request them to act into the living history of man, you are attributing to them the characteristics of God
All we ask Saints is to pray for us - are we commanded to pray for each other? Further, we know that the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful. Who is more righteous than those who are with God? If a Catholic posts: "Blessed Mother, please bring all peoples to your Son, Amen" the request she pray to God for that objective is implicit in that entreatment (prayer).
You are praying to them because there is no means of communicating with the dead that we mortals are instructed to use. You won’t find this in the Scriptures.
I disagree. First, we must establish where the "dead" are. Assuming you do not believe in the "soul sleep," then where do those faithful who leave this realm go? They head to Heaven (ignoring other concepts for a moment). Okay, so then if they are still "alive in Christ," we cannot rightfully call them dead, can we? If they are in Heaven, we must now examine whether those in Heaven can hear us. If you believe the angels are in Heaven, then either they have some aspect of God's omnipotence or Heaven can hear us. The Psalmist commands angels constantly. Since angels are not God, it seems unlikely they are omnipotent. Thus Heaven must hear us.
Therefore, if the departed Faithful are alive in Christ and are in Heaven, and if the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful, why would you know ask the especially righteous in Heaven to entreat God on your behalf?
There are angels on earth as well...There is nothing in the scriptures that suggest angels in heaven can hear us...
All we ask Saints is to pray for us - are we commanded to pray for each other? Further, we know that the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful. Who is more righteous than those who are with God? If a Catholic posts: "Blessed Mother, please bring all peoples to your Son, Amen" the request she pray to God for that objective is implicit in that entreatment (prayer).
This is the argument you guys always use when accused of praying to Mary...
But what's funny is that some of the Catholics (on FR) deny praying to Mary while others (you) admit to praying to Mary and add justification...
I don't have a problem with you guys asking Mary or Heinrich Himmler (a Catholic) to pray for you...
What I and a few others object to is you guys kneeling to statues of Mary and asking her to send you some of God's grace...Or asking a 'Saint' to sell your house for you or to keep you safe on the highway...
AS we all know, there is a large element in your religion who are pushing to make Mary the 4th part of the Trinity...I'd say you guys are just a step away from it...
Therefore, if the departed Faithful are alive in Christ and are in Heaven, and if the prayer of the righteous is especially powerful, why would you know ask the especially righteous in Heaven to entreat God on your behalf?
There is no one in heaven who is more righteous than a born-again Christian on earth...
Psalm 103:
19 The LORD'S throne is established in heaven; God's royal power rules over all.
20 Bless the LORD, all you angels, mighty in strength and attentive, obedient to every command.
21 Bless the LORD, all you hosts, ministers who do God's will.
22 Bless the LORD, all creatures, everywhere in God's domain. Bless the LORD, my soul!
God's throne is established in Heaven. It is one part of His domain. The Psalmist is commanding creatures EVERYWHERE in His domain - not just the earthly realm.
Psalm 148:
1 Hallelujah! Praise the LORD from the heavens; give praise in the heights.
2 Praise him, all you angels; give praise, all you hosts.
Praise the LORD from the heavens, but the heavens cannot hear us? Interesting.
But what's funny is that some of the Catholics (on FR) deny praying to Mary while others (you) admit to praying to Mary and add justification...
Because the way many on this forum define "prayer" is a moving target. All Catholics would agree we "pray" to Saints, when "prayer" is understood to mean "ask." When some say, "No! Prayer is Worship!", then we (rightfully) admit that we do not "pray" to Saint, when "prayer" means "worship." When we bring in Latin terms clearly drawing the distinctions, we are accused of doublespeak. English is an awful language for theological discussion - German and Latin work much better.
I don't have a problem with you guys asking Mary or Heinrich Himmler (a Catholic) to pray for you...
The Nazi card? How insightful.
AS we all know, there is a large element in your religion who are pushing to make Mary the 4th part of the Trinity...I'd say you guys are just a step away from it...
Show me where any Catholic states Mary is equal to God - not what YOU think Catholics are saying. Again, English is a terrible language for theological discussion; the prefix co- is derived from the Latin, cum, meaning "with." Find any Latin dictionary for support.
There is no one in heaven who is more righteous than a born-again Christian on earth...
Ahh, pride. May God have mercy on me, a sinner. I did not post this response for you, since this has been discussed with you by countless people, but I hope some lurkers on these threads may understand the Church.
You raise a few good points. In particular, the prayer of the righteous...
And, no, I am not referring to “soul sleep” but rather those departed, whose souls are with Christ, awaiting the resurrection of the bodies. I think we are fairly close agreement about the state of a believer that leaves this earth. Except, of course, to that matter of purgatory. Tell me a little about your view of that with respect to those that have died in Christ (that is, real believers).
Let me ponder that matter about the David (or the other Psalmists) speaking to the angels. That is interesting.
I’m sorry - I’m not sure I understand your request. You want me to explain my thoughts on purgatory? If that is so, I am happy to do so - if I am mistaken, please, correct me, as I’d hate to sidetrack this conversation we are having. Thanks!
My apologies. Yes, tell me about your thoughts (or perhaps your understanding of the “official” view) on purgatory. The connection here is that there are apparently, according to RCC teaching, some departed believers that are being held in purgatory for an unspecified period. There are also those who have gone on to heaven, with Christ.
Is Mary in heaven or purgatory? Are others you would “speak” to (as opposed to “pray” to) also in purgatory or must it only be to those in heaven?
And I am still thinking about the angels matter.
But, if you don’t mind, your comments would not sidetrack this conversation. And, there are no trick questions here. Unfortunately, I must leave for the evening, but I’ll check back tomorrow to see what you think. Grace be with you.
So, once we have passed on, what happens to the stains of sin that we have placed on ourselves? "Nothing unclean can enter" God's presence, and Heaven is certainly God's presence. Time and again, the Scripture speaks of "purification by fire." This is what we call purgatory - the final purification before we enter Heaven.
Also, the Scripture teaches that the living can atone for the dead. (2 Macc 12:46). If the dead are in Heaven, what good does atonement do? Same question if they are already condemned.
There are also those who have gone on to heaven, with Christ.
The length of Purgatory depends on the sins of the departed. My assumption is that the time a 12 year old spends in purgatory is markedly shorter than someone who lived a life of pleasure and sincerely repented only on their deathbed - however, that is purely conjecture. The purification necessary is known to God alone.
Is Mary in heaven or purgatory?
There are some who have gone to Heaven without the need for purification. Elijah is probably the clearest example. Mary is another - the Church teaches that she was bodily assumed into Heaven. Assumption is not the same as ascension - the former is passive, the latter active. Only God can ascend to Heaven - it is an exercise of His Own power. Bringing others into Heaven is His assumption of them. You'll notice that, for all the importance we Catholics place on Saints and their stories and their relics (think St. Peter's Cathedral, built over St. Peter's tomb), we don't have any such place for Mary. Why? Because there is no history of her having been buried.
Are others you would “speak” to (as opposed to “pray” to) also in purgatory or must it only be to those in heaven?
This one is tricky, and I'm not quite sure. I imagine those souls in purgatory can hear us the same as those in Heaven - purgatory is a part of God's dominion just as much as Heaven and Earth. Saints who are canonized are "known" to be in Heaven. It is quite a process for a person to be declared a Saint. Private devotions (for example, to departed family members) are certainly allowed, but I imagine the process of purification makes one more righteous. Thus, the entire rationale for asking the assistance of Saints is nullified. Souls in purgatory are likely just as righteous as I am. As we know with God, it is quality, not quantity.
You've gotten me pondering a number of things. I look forward to continuing this discussion tomorrow. Pax Christi.
Has nothing to do with pride...It has to do with believing what God says...
All our (and your Saint's) righteousness are as filthy rags...The only righteousness that counts is the righteousness that God gave us...His righteousness...
The failure to recognize this simple emphasis shift results in the most obvious heretical errors. If Mary gave Christ his humanity by an act of her will, she is the supporting mechanism, and Christ continues to be contained by her, supported by her, emanating from her, infinitum. This is clearly evidenced by the myriad works of art depicting Jesus as a perpetual child in the lap of Mary, suckling from Mary, drawing his life from Mary. Your posted picture and quote is a very telling example of this heresy.
Odd that no Christian believed that for the first 1500 years plus of The Church's existence and only a very small minority, a minority outside The Church, believes that today. Am I to conclude that the HS has done a singularly lousy job of protecting The Church from heresy, fwd?
In any event, here is the dogma, proclaimed in 433:
"We profess therefore that Our Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, is true God and true man, constituted by a body and a rational soul: that He was engendered by the Father before all time as to His divinity, and as to His humanity, was born of the Virgin Mary in time for us and for our salvation; that He is consubstantial with the Father in His divinity, and consubstantial with us in His humanity; for one union was effected by the two natures, and we acknowledge only one Christ, one Son, one Lord. Because of this union, which is free from all admixture, we also acknowledge that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God {Theotokos}, because God the Word was made flesh, was made man, coalesced with the Temple (His humanity), which He took from Her."
The Church and The Fathers of the Council of Ephesus were quite aware of scripture.
The fact that heresy has plagued the “Church” is only too obvious to need explanation or example, and the Holy Spirit cannot be left holding the bag. He has preserved truth, even if it seemed a small spark in times of almost universal darkness, in the most unlikely places and among the most unlikely people, not always of the “Church” properly, but of the Church spiritually. Mankind is exceedingly capable of extrapolating sound doctrine into the most heinous error, even by many of those that you venerate as Church Fathers.
And no, the Church (those universally united to Christ by the Holy Spirit through faith) does not believe that Christ proceeds from Mary, continues to proceed from Mary, and is contained, supported by, and is conveyed to men through the conduit of Mary, as your doctrine and your artwork depict.
Sure, though the usual abbreviation is "BVM". :)
"And no, the Church (those universally united to Christ by the Holy Spirit through faith) does not believe that Christ proceeds from Mary, continues to proceed from Mary,..."
The Church does not believe that Christ "proceeds" (what a lousy English translation of "εκπορευόμενον" which refers to the Holy Spirit, not Christ, BTW)from anyone. Christ is "τόν Υιόν του Θεού τόν μονογενή, τόν εκ του Πατρός γεννηθέντα πρό πάντων τών αιώνων. Φώς εκ φωτός, Θεόν αληθινόν εκ Θεού αληθινού γεννηθέντα, ού ποιηθέντα, ομοούσιον τώ Πατρί, δι’ ού τά πάντα εγένετο.(And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all aeons, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, being of one essence with the Father;)"
"...and is contained, supported by, and is conveyed to men through the conduit of Mary, as your doctrine and your artwork depict."
Wherever do you get your theology and what you believe, apparently sincerely, is the theology of The Church?
I’m out for a couple days. More thinking and then I’ll get back to you.
No worries - I look forward to it. Could you just shoot me a FReepmail when you post your reply, just to make sure I don’t miss your ping? Thanks!
Okay, I’ve had a few days to mull your answer over. The great majority of what you have written here is based upon RCC tradition. That makes it nearly impossible to dispute, not because it is therefore automatically true, but because once your organization commits it to tradition, that puts it on par with the Scriptures and, in your world, irrefutable.
So, I purpose the following: While I am not persuaded that purgatory exists, nor that “speaking” to the dead is appropriate, I will continue to listen to the discussion. And I am still trying to connect how Mary could possibly “unite” Christians (which sounds like an active verb upon a passive object) without acting into history like God. This seems very troubling, if not nearly blasphemous.
Nevertheless, the ambition to have unity and asking God to bring that about, seems very appropriate. To that end, I will pray directly to God.
And as for the “Saint” explanation, I am still puzzled. Peter calls all of the folks he wrote to (the believing diaspora) “saints”. The Scripture notes that we are all saints, if we belong to Christ. This separate class, again seeming to arise only in RCC tradition, appears to be absent in Scriptures.
Gad, what a joke. Guess he has no understanding of Protestants (protesters of the Catholic Church) believe. Might want to figure that one out before making such statements.
I’m not seeing scripture that supports asking Mary to do anything.
This is taken from extra-biblical writings that were not deemed in sink with the message included in the bible, thus it could be interpreted as NOT being spiritually guided into the compilation of books that made up the bible.
The catholic church worships God in such beautiful ways, but some of the catholic churches theology kinda troubles me.
Also, the church needs to do a better job dispelling superstitions within the church, such as planting a statue of Joseph on the grounds of a home to help it sell.
Seeing Mary on a piece of toast and then catholics flock to the site to just be in the presence of the toast.
I’m really not making fun, it just disturbs me to see that kinda stuff.
I am sympathetic to that point. It makes it very difficult to have a discussion amongst Catholics and Protestants. The way I see it, it is analogous to interpreting the Constitution. Yes, you can get a long way looking solely at the text, but the whole of the document comes to light when you look at the English Law it is based upon, the early documents of the Founders, etc. But I digress, since that is not the basis of this discussion.
So, I purpose the following: While I am not persuaded that purgatory exists, nor that “speaking” to the dead is appropriate, I will continue to listen to the discussion. And I am still trying to connect how Mary could possibly “unite” Christians (which sounds like an active verb upon a passive object) without acting into history like God. This seems very troubling, if not nearly blasphemous.
That is fair. Listening with an open mind is all I could ask for. It is something sorely missing on this forum, on both sides. Speaking to the "dead" - did you have any thoughts on my point re: Angels? Before I continue on that idea, I'm curious as to your thoughts. Regarding Mary (for if it is appropriate to speak to her, it is appropriate to speak to the others currently present in Glory with Christ), she cannot act into history. I understand your concern, and if she was or if that is what we sought, it would be indeed blasphemous. However, our faith holds that Mary is the most righteous creation of God - what other human has been so blessed as to physically carry Him into the world? Meditating on that reality blows my mind. Carrying God!
Now, if the prayers of the righteous are especially powerful, who is more righteous than her? Christ, certainly, but He is God. No one gets to the Father except through Christ. But how do we (and others) get to Christ? Asking Mary to ask God to bring all Christians together is no different than you or me asking Him - it is still his action. But, I believe Mary carries a lot more weight with Him than I do.
And as for the “Saint” explanation, I am still puzzled. Peter calls all of the folks he wrote to (the believing diaspora) “saints”. The Scripture notes that we are all saints, if we belong to Christ. This separate class, again seeming to arise only in RCC tradition, appears to be absent in Scriptures.
We Catholics don't do a good job explaining the difference between what we mean by "saint" and "Saint." The latter is the former, but the former isn't the latter. Anyone who belongs to Christ is a "saint." We agree with that. We don't believe you truly belong to Christ until your work here is done - free will allows us to turn against him. Thus, when we discuss saints, we mean those with God in Heaven. "Saints" are just those we know are there - it is a conformation of the fact that God has saved them. If you want to discuss that process, I am happy to - trust me, the bar is very high.
YOU:
I’m not seeing scripture that supports asking Mary to do anything.
SCRIPTURE ASKS US TO PRAY FOR EACH OTHER, ASKING MARY TO PRAY FOR ME ISNT AGAINST SCRIPTURE.
This is taken from extra-biblical writings that were not deemed in sink with the message included in the bible, thus it could be interpreted as NOT being spiritually guided into the compilation of books that made up the bible.
WHAT BOOKS ARE YOU REFERRING TO? THE COMPLETED CANON USED SINCE THE FIFTH CENTURY? PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHICH EXTRA BIBLICAL BOOKS YOU THINK ARE BEING USED.
The catholic church worships God in such beautiful ways, but some of the catholic churches theology kinda troubles me.
SUCH AS?
Also, the church needs to do a better job dispelling superstitions within the church, such as planting a statue of Joseph on the grounds of a home to help it sell.
CONFUSING GOOD TRADITIONS OF SAINTS WITH SUPERSTIITIONS IS A BIT OF A STRETCH.
Seeing Mary on a piece of toast and then catholics flock to the site to just be in the presence of the toast.
SORT OF LIKE WHEN OUR LORD’S FACE APPEARED ON THE CLOTH THAT MARY MAGDALENE HELD TO HIS FACE....AND IT ISNT TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE TOAST, IT IS IN MOSTLY CURIOSITY.
I’m really not making fun, it just disturbs me to see that kinda stuff.
PERHAPS YOU SHOULD FIND OUT MORE RATHER THAN CRITICIZING.
Your response is well-reasoned and presented. Give me a few days to ponder these various matters and I’ll be back...again. Grace be with you.
Perhaps you should relax and re-read my post. I was not criticizing.
There is no prohibition at all in scripture in regards to prayers to Mary or asking Mary to pray for you, however there are no scriptures to that effect.
This is leading me to believe this was NOT a common practice within the early church.
Protestant Christians hold fast to 1 Timothy 2:5 regarding the one true mediator between God and man. This is indeed scriptural.
I was referring to the Apocrypha as the extra biblical text.
What is beautiful about your worship? Holy Communion is one very reverent way to worship. The liturgical calender is full of opportunities to worship our Lord.
I was not confusing anything at all. I am simply sharing experiences in my life regarding catholics doing and saying things that are NOT scriptural. I have not witnessed any church leaders attempting to correct some of these “ologies” Sorry if that felt confusing to you.
Regarding people seeing Mary on a piece of toast comment, it is just one example of the many where catholics flock to the scene to seek a miracle of some sort not simple curiosity. Sorry if that disturbs you.
Some of this stuff really does look like idolatry.
I think we agree that Mary is now safely in the arms of her Bridegroom (meant as purely as that concept could be stated, not salaciously), and therefore she is now fully sanctified. Where do we find the need to have someone of higher ranking appeal to our Lord, if there is only One needing to intercede for me between man and God, the Man Christ Jesus? How does Mary actually improve that communication? And, does this mean that Mary is in some sense Omniscient or at least All-seeing? Does RCC tradition teach that the dead are in some sense sitting in a stadium watching the earth? What are their limitations? If you use the Hebrews text to support this (”...surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses...”), I have a grave disagreement that this broad interpretation fits the intention of the writer.
Second, the S vs. s. You are the first RCC I have been in contact with that acknowledges that there is “s”. But, what I cannot catch, is whence cometh the need of “S”? This is not outlined anywhere I can find in Scriptures, so is this again a product of “tradition”? I don't question that your organization has set a high bar, but that doesn't demonstrate that it is appropriate. The whole matter of elevating some via human observation does not seem appropriate. If the end result of these inquiries are simply, “Trust us, we are the final authority because we are the final authority.” then, I will respectfully disagree.
Please excuse me - I plan on responding soon, but I want to give your reponse the proper attention it deserves, and I do not have time to do such right now! But, I certainly will, I promise.
You spent a good deal of time trying to convince me that you don’t pray to Mary, but rather ask her to pray to God for you. Now, the Pope has a Prayer to Mary where he put the “...world in her hands.”
POMPEII, Italy, OCT. 19, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI placed the world in Mary’s hands during his one-day visit to the shrine of Our Lady of the Rosary in Pompeii, near Naples.
The Pope’s leading of the Supplication of the Blessed Virgin of the Rosary, a prayer written by Blessed Bartolo Longo (1841-1926) was one of the high points of this 12th pastoral trip in Italy.
“We implore you to have pity today on the nations that have gone astray, on all Europe, on the whole world, that they might repent and return to your heart,” the text of the prayer reads.
With the words of Bartolo, the Pontiff turned to Mary, saying: “If you will not help us because we are ungrateful and unworthy children of your protection, we will not know to whom to turn.”
Read the thread yourself; it is on FR. This sounds an awful lot like a request for her to exercise her “power” over the world and influence the affairs of men directly. “Help us.” “Have pity on us.” I am now sensing that you led me down a rosy path. If you were not aware of this perspective as the official position, why did you tell me that this was the way you Catholics viewed Mary? If you did know it, then why smear the edges? Disappointed.
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If the Archbishop of Canterbury did not have a a devotion to the Blessed Mother I doubt that he would have made a pilgrimage to Lourdes. He hardly went in "protest."
Step right up, folks, and make your choice! And behind this door, we have deity A, who we on earth can invoke for divine aid. And behind the other door, we have deity B, who we can also invoke for divine aid. It's equally valid to appeal to either! Also the goddess might be more approachable than the Creator ...
And BIBLICAL history must have stopped after the resurrection for Roman Catholics trusting in Mary, "Redemptrix"...as NO REFERENCE AT ALL to her is given in the rest of the New Testament (even in St. Peter's epistles!)....
One would think if Marian veneration were such an essential to Christianity, than Saints Paul, Peter, John, Jude, Dr. Luke (in Acts) would have ALL KINDS of references to her, in order to instruct the infant Church about someone of such high importance to them. But, in spite of instructing them about all kinds of things....NOTHING about Mary.
I wonder why?
The Archbishop of Canterbury also has devotion to actively homosexual priests and bishops. Not exactly a good witness to your side, eh?
** But, she is a person, nothing more. **
Good grief, brother. She is the Mother of God, the second person of the Trinity, Jesus Christ. What IS your problem?
Bless the LORD, all creatures, everywhere in God’s domain. Bless the LORD, my soul! (Psalm 1-3:22)
Hmmmmm, it would seem from this verse, you could develop a theology to ask ants and amoeba and grizzly bears to “pray for us” since—if we take this with wooden literalism—then they must hear us....
Psalms are in the genre of poetry, and hence rightly use poetic license. Are they God’s holy Word, and true? Of course, but as they are....poetry, which uses readily apparent symbolic language. Trees as we know them don’t literally applaud, nor do mountains and hills form choirs, either... (Isa. 55:12, also a poetic passage).
Neither can one find support in holy Scripture for the idea that Christians in the presence of God in Heaven, share in his uniquely divine all-knowing and all-hearing attributes.
"Never apologize for the Blessed Virgin Mary!"
~~Mother Angelica
Isn't this the same prelate who is cool with the ordination of women and unrepentant sodomites? Hardly a man of sound judgment ...
Okie dokie then.
This was a serious doctrinal discussion but now it is apparent that you, with your large capital letters screaming at the screen, properly represent the legitimacy of other side. You’ve answered all my questions about Mary.
I'm not saying I agree with him on everything, or that this is even true, I was pointing out that he was not in Lourdes as a form of "protest."
Some seem to think that devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is disavowed by ALL Protestants, that is not the case and it NEVER has been.
See what I wrote in #49.
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