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New: Shroud of Turin carbon dating proved erroneous ( performed on non-original cloth sample)
Ohio Shroud Conference ^

Posted on 09/28/2008 8:19:34 AM PDT by dascallie

PRESS RELEASE: Los Alamos National Laboratory team of scientists prove carbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin wrong

COLUMBUS, Ohio, August 15 — In his presentation today at The Ohio State University’s Blackwell Center, Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) chemist, Robert Villarreal, disclosed startling new findings proving that the sample of material used in 1988 to Carbon-14 (C-14) date the Shroud of Turin, which categorized the cloth as a medieval fake, could not have been from the original linen cloth because it was cotton. According to Villarreal, who lead the LANL team working on the project, thread samples they examined from directly adjacent to the C-14 sampling area were “definitely not linen” and, instead, matched cotton. Villarreal pointed out that “the [1988] age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case.” Villarreal also revealed that, during testing, one of the threads came apart in the middle forming two separate pieces. A surface resin, that may have been holding the two pieces together, fell off and was analyzed. Surprisingly, the two ends of the thread had different chemical compositions, lending credence to the theory that the threads were spliced together during a repair. LANL’s work confirms the research published in Thermochimica Acta (Jan. 2005) by the late Raymond Rogers, a chemist who had studied actual C-14 samples and concluded the sample was not part of the original cloth possibly due to the area having been repaired. This hypothesis was presented by M. Sue Benford and Joseph G. Marino in Orvieto, Italy in 2000. Benford and Marino proposed that a 16th Century patch of cotton/linen material was skillfully spliced into the 1st Century original Shroud cloth in the region ultimately used for dating. The intermixed threads combined to give the dates found by the labs ranging between 1260 and 1390 AD. Benford and Marino contend that this expert repair was necessary to disguise an unauthorized relic taken from the corner of the cloth. A paper presented today at the conference by Benford and Marino, and to be published in the July/August issue of the international journal Chemistry Today, provided additional corroborating evidence for the repair theory.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: carbon14; carbon14dating; carbondating; shroud; shroudofturin
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To: Swordmaker

http://members.aol.com/turin99/radiocarbon-b.htm

You are simply wrong when you say that te Raes sample contacted ANY of the c-14 test area. Had you scrolled down below your diagram, you would have seen that the c-14 sample (actual photo) was bounded by a piece of fringe that was removed and the Riggi sample. It did not contact any part of Raes.


101 posted on 09/29/2008 2:23:11 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Swordmaker
Only materials from the STURP tape tests of 1978 were supposed to be in circulation.

Once again:King Umberto, the “owner” of the shroud in 1973 specifically requested that all samples be returned to the reliquary with the main shroud after it was tested. September 1995: Cardinal Saldarini issues statement declaring any Shroud samples in circulation other than those taken with official permission for the tests of 1978 as unauthorized. He remarks that 'if such material exists…the Holy See has not given its permission to anybody to keep it and do what they want with it' and he requests those concerned to give the piece back to the Holy See. This statement seems clearly to be directed at the samples taken by Professor Giovanni Riggi in April 1988, portions from which were procured in all good faith by Dr. Garza-Valdes. http://www.shroud.com/history.htm

102 posted on 09/29/2008 2:25:32 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton
the blood stained threads taken for the Italian study

You are aware that this study said there was NO blood on the shroud?

103 posted on 09/29/2008 2:30:54 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton; grey_whiskers; NYer; shroudie; MHGinTN
Gonella did not have the authority to give anything to Rogers and there is NO evidence that these threads ever existed.

Rogers specifically states in it that Gonella gave him threads from the center of the c-14 test area.

Which is just as I have been telling you.

Pardon me, but I have been misremembering Gonella and confabulating him with the Custodian of the Shroud. My apologies. Professor Luigi Gonella is the current scientific advisor to the Custodian of the Shroud, Cardinal Severino Poletto of Turin. Gonella operates under the Cardinal's authority who operates under the Pope's authority.

September 1995: Cardinal Saldarini issues statement declaring any Shroud samples in circulation other than those taken with official permission for the tests of 1978 as unauthorized. He remarks that 'if such material exists…the Holy See has not given its permission to anybody to keep it and do what they want with it' and he requests those concerned to give the piece back to the Holy See.

There have been changes in things since 1995. It was ten years later and there is a different Cardinal who is the Custodian of the Shroud. His science advisor is Professor Luigi Gonella.

It is true that certain portions of the samples that are in circulation are not currently "authorized" by the Catholic Church, but they do exist and have a chain of custody. The threads you specifically mention are those that were used by Dr. Garza-Valdes who put forward the bio-plastic coating hypothesis which were obtained from Professor Riggi. They do not refer to the threads Rogers received from Gonella, an official source with the Custodian of the Shroud.

104 posted on 09/29/2008 2:36:04 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Soliton
You are simply wrong when you say that te Raes sample contacted ANY of the c-14 test area. Had you scrolled down below your diagram, you would have seen that the c-14 sample (actual photo) was bounded by a piece of fringe that was removed and the Riggi sample. It did not contact any part of Raes.

You are an wrong. Contact is not important in this issue but you are still wrong. Let's assume that you are correct, although it is BECAUSE a patch was sewn into the Shroud to replace the cut out Raes sample, that the 0.2" wide section was cut away... to remove the seam and portions of the patch. The original sample was STILL CUT adjacent to the Raes sample location. You are maintaining that that 2 tenths of an inch was sufficient to divorce the material of the C14 sample from the material of the Raes sample. Absurd.

If that is the case, are you then also maintaining that although the Raes threads are DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT from the Main body of the Shroud, the change over from cotton containing Raes threads to 100% Linen Shroud threads... invisibly... occurred in that small, 2 tenths inch trimmed off area? if so, then you are admitting that the Shroud materials are not homogenous throughout its composition and therefore invalidating the C14 tests.

However, that is irrelevant because the second Arizona sample was taken directly adjacent, without removal of any compromised strips, and completely sharing one side—you see the curved edge?— with the Raes sample. It was the MIDDLE portion that was retained as the control... your so-called "Riggi sample." Here is a photograph with the sample areas drawn in from your own source:

The lower segment, closest to the edge, is the second sample that the Arizona lab was given. Your source comes to the conclusion that:

...the statistical characteristics of the data from each radiocarbon lab appear to indicate that, in the case of the Oxford lab measurements, they were drawn from a statistically different population.

That means that the samples were NOT the same. This conclusion is a confirmation of a previous scientist's work that also concluded that the C14 samples were not statistically similar enough to have come from the same source.

You are an Atheist apologist who cannot understand good science when it hits him in the face.

105 posted on 09/29/2008 3:06:09 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Soliton; grey_whiskers; NYer; shroudie; MHGinTN
You are aware that this study said there was NO blood on the shroud?

Yes. However, its findings have been superseded by more definitive tests done by scientists who are experts in the field of blood and hemoglobin. The Italians used simplistic forensic presumptive testing that is designed for blood that is fairly newly deposited and more suited to convicting a murderer than archaeological studies. They simply do not work for old, denatured blood that has been fractionated into meth-hemoglobins. Those researches have been peer-reviewed, published, and duplicated. I have already, on another thread, supplied you with the links on the articles... which you obviously ignore in favor of much older work, now disproved. I will not post those links to you again. It is obviously a waste of time.

106 posted on 09/29/2008 3:12:17 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: Swordmaker
The threads you specifically mention are those that were used by Dr. Garza-Valdes who put forward the bio-plastic coating hypothesis which were obtained from Professor Riggi.

No. The alleged threads that Rogers used ARE NOT the same as the sample used by Dr. Garza-Valdes. Valdez used the Riggi sample. Rogers got his threads from Gonella who he says claimed to have taken them from the center of the C-14 testing area. There is NO record of these threads ever existing prior to Rogers' article and NO chain of custody. Photpmicrographs show whole pieces without missing threads.

Have you figured out why Rogers' statement that he could give an age range for the shroud based on his bogus vanillin test can't be true?

107 posted on 09/29/2008 6:10:30 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: dascallie; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


108 posted on 09/29/2008 6:43:06 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: dascallie

The Bible is the foundation for the Christian faith, not some phony cloth with an obscure image on it, regardless of how old it is.


109 posted on 09/29/2008 6:53:24 AM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty; The Pendleton 8: We are not going down without a fight)
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To: dascallie
Robert Villarreal, disclosed startling new findings proving that the sample of material used in 1988 to Carbon-14 (C-14) date the Shroud of Turin, which categorized the cloth as a medieval fake, could not have been from the original linen cloth because it was cotton.

Wow. Bummer, man; especially since the Vatican will not permit any more destructive tests.

110 posted on 09/29/2008 6:59:16 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: RC2

I agree. I’m a believing Christian who’s always thought the Shroud of Turin is not important. It’s an historical fact that Jesus existed and was crucified, so we don’t need the Shroud to “prove” that. And, as for Jesus’ being the Son of God, and authentic Shroud of Turin doesn’t prove that anyway. When religious people tout the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, they risk undermining the faith (if the Shroud ends up being inauthentic). Leave it all up to scientists, if they even care.


111 posted on 09/29/2008 7:33:15 AM PDT by utahagen
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To: Soliton; grey_whiskers; NYer; shroudie; MHGinTN
Have you figured out why Rogers' statement that he could give an age range for the shroud based on his bogus vanillin test can't be true?

I know why YOU think it can't be true. However, not all of the Shroud was exposed to such high temperatures for a long enough period. There are qualitative changes that occur to Linen when it is heated that hot.

I am also aware that Rogers cannot prove a negative... that there is no vanillin on the Shroud... because you would have to look at every possible location and exclude vanillin being located there. However, there is a database of fiber samples taken from every square inch of the shroud and a statistically significant portion have been assayed and show no vanillin.

Rogers got his threads from Gonella who he says claimed to have taken them from the center of the C-14 testing area.

This is NOT a criminal case, Soliton. No further photomicrographs are needed. There are thousands of threads on the Shroud that have NOT been photomicrographed. I bet you have never seen a photomicrograph of your Riggi Sample. I saw one once but cannot find it now. The photo you provided of the Arizona sample is sufficient to show that there are visible changes in the weave from one area to the next. Your demand that there must be a "chain of custody" for the scientific research to be valid is absurd.

Rogers requested threads from Gonella, the scientific advisor to the Custodian of the Shroud. Gonella sent him threads. Both men agree this was done. Rogers reports he did his research using those threads as well as threads from the Raes sample. Why do YOU have a problem with it as though your life were hanging on the technicality that a photomicrograph was not taken at the time of collection? There is no "Smoking gun" here for you to worry to death. It is a non-issue except to YOU.

112 posted on 09/29/2008 8:27:24 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: dascallie

I agree. Blessed are those who believe without seeing, but for those who need more, should we turn our back on opportunities?


113 posted on 09/29/2008 9:01:40 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (Fannie + Freddie = Democrat Cronies [Dodd and Obama -- the LegisLOOTers])
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To: Quix

Ping.


114 posted on 09/29/2008 9:03:59 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (Fannie + Freddie = Democrat Cronies [Dodd and Obama -- the LegisLOOTers])
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To: Swordmaker

“There are qualitative changes that occur to Linen when it is heated that hot.”

I’m no deep researcher on this like you guys. But two things to consider:

1. Even at our current technological level, we may not be able to fully conceive what exactly happened to that piece of cloth.

2. Do we know how skilled they were at hoaxes way back when?

This is quite a mystery, isn’t it?


115 posted on 09/29/2008 9:08:47 AM PDT by Arthur Wildfire! March (Fannie + Freddie = Democrat Cronies [Dodd and Obama -- the LegisLOOTers])
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To: Swordmaker
Rogers requested threads from Gonella, the scientific advisor to the Custodian of the Shroud. Gonella sent him threads. Both men agree this was done.

NO! Gonella wasn't the scientific adviser to anyone at the time. He was acting as a private citizen. Riggi, Gonella's assistant, was also not involved officially and neither was Rogers. This was their own little fraudulent show. Rogers states specifically that the warp and woof threads were supplied by Gonella, and Rogers, ONLY Rogers, claimed that they came from "the center of the c14 sample area. The Turin custodian does not accept Rogers' findings

As mentioned repeatedly before. Turin officials requested that ALL non-1978 samples be returned to the Turin in 1995 . They REFUSED to authenticate the sample provided by Riggi to Garza that led to the "bioplastic film" nonsense. McCrone said that the threads had definitely NOT come from the shroud.

Riggi worked for Gonella. They were the goofs that simplified the protocol for testing the samples for c-14 testing. The new flawed Gonella-Riggi protocol was lambasted by the testing labs and others, but they were in charge. They were publicly disgraced when the C-14 came back with a medieval date. Gonella was furious and accused the British Museum team as "acting like dogs". I can find no record of him being a Turin official after 1989.

To this day Turin has refused to validate Rogers' TA work. Gonella was either peddling fake threads or was in possession of stolen property.

116 posted on 09/29/2008 9:10:54 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: zot

Ping.


117 posted on 09/29/2008 9:16:49 AM PDT by Interesting Times (Swiftboating, you say? Check out ToSetTheRecordStraight.com)
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To: Swordmaker
I know why YOU think it can't be true. However, not all of the Shroud was exposed to such high temperatures for a long enough period. There are qualitative changes that occur to Linen when it is heated that hot.

NO! Rogers claimed that there was NO vanillin on the shroud. He also claimed to be able to determine an age range for the shroud (1300 t0 3000 years old). He in essence used the slow depletion of vanillin in lignin as an hour glass. Once the flax was cut, the vanillin began to dissipate. He calculated that it would take a minimum of 1300 years for all of the vanillin to be completely depleted so it was "unlikely" that the shroud was younger.

If you accept his vanillin aging theory, then the shroud is older than approximately 1300 years. Unfortunately for Rogers, he did what pseudo-scientists frequently do--He overreached by saying that the shroud is between 1300 and 3000 years old.

If you walk into a room and find an hourglass with all of the sand in the bottom, you can reasonably conclude that the hour glass was turned over more than an hour ago, but unless you know when the last grain of sand slipped to the bottom, you cannot say WHEN the glass was turned over. If it had some sand in it, you could give a range of less than one hour and greater than some time ago. If all of the sand is in the bottom of the hourglass, however, you cannot set a range.

Rogers states that the vanillin glass was empty. All of the vanillin had been depleted at some unknown time in the past. If that time was 1 AD. His dubious analysis would provide an age range 1300 to 3000 B.C.! He simply assumed the vanillin ran out the minute before he did his tests. His tests actually have a range of 1300 to whenever flax evolved-- tens of thousands of years. Real peer review would have caught such an obvious mistake.

118 posted on 09/29/2008 9:30:17 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Swordmaker
The Italians used simplistic forensic presumptive testing that is designed for blood that is fairly newly deposited and more suited to convicting a murderer than archaeological studies.

This actually the opposite of the truth. The Italian team actually used highly sensitive tests specifically for blood. They were actually MORE sensitive for old blood because it is more concentrated.

Adler et al didn't use tests specific for blood, but for components of blood. Nickell et al have shown that these tests show positives for the kind of paint Rogers admitted were on the shroud.

119 posted on 09/29/2008 9:39:47 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Swordmaker
However, there is a database of fiber samples taken from every square inch of the shroud and a statistically significant portion have been assayed and show no vanillin.

Could you point me to some documentation on this database? I have read 13 books and untold articles on the shroud in the last month or so and can find no mention of it. Was it created during the modern restoration?

120 posted on 09/29/2008 9:53:24 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: RC2

To those with a prosaic view of the world few things are worth money. To those who wonder about things particularly unusual and possibly miraculouws ones many things are worth speanding money on.


121 posted on 09/29/2008 10:36:22 AM PDT by arrogantsob (Hero vs Zero)
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To: Soliton

Re: Nickell

Nickell and his amateurs are NOT specialists in blood research as are Adler, Heller, and Cameron. His science advisor is a Geologist. Neither were the Italians. Your mere assertions do not make your claims true.

I am done with you.


122 posted on 09/29/2008 10:43:42 AM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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To: dascallie

bttt


123 posted on 09/29/2008 10:49:58 AM PDT by Cottonbay
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To: Swordmaker; grey_whiskers
I am done with you.

I understand. You aren't up on the facts. Do what I did. Go back and read some of the more recent literature. It's tough playing whack-a-mole without the facts. Before you go, could you point me to this database you say exists?

124 posted on 09/29/2008 10:54:55 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Swordmaker

In order for this shroud to be the burial cloth of Jesus (as many believe) it would have to be from that time period, place, and shown that the burial cloth was important enough to the people at the time to preserve it, and that the present day shroud is in fact that cloth and not an artist’s medieval work (as there is evidence for).
And then there is what one might call, “chain of evidence”.
So it could be just as easily be said that the C14 tests call into question the reliability of legend, stories, writings about this shroud.
It appears that the Turin Shroud is not a burial cloth of Jesus even if it’s origin is unknown


125 posted on 09/29/2008 11:06:36 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Swordmaker
There have been changes in things since 1995. It was ten years later and there is a different Cardinal who is the Custodian of the Shroud. His science advisor is Professor Luigi Gonella.

NO! Piero Savarino is the Scientific Adviser of the Papal Custodian of the Holy Shroud. Gonella was booted in 1989!

126 posted on 09/29/2008 11:22:31 AM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton; Swordmaker
It's been my experience in debates like these that the guy who is always trying to be 100% right and who "knows everything" is the one that is wrong, and "full of it".

That would be pretty much YOU, Soliton.

127 posted on 09/29/2008 11:52:36 AM PDT by an amused spectator (That would be... harsher punishment for parole violators, Stan.)
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To: an amused spectator
It's been my experience in debates like these that the guy who is always trying to be 100% right and who "knows everything" is the one that is wrong, and "full of it". That would be pretty much YOU, Soliton.

Argue the facts dimbulb.

128 posted on 09/29/2008 12:06:09 PM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton
You're like the thousand monkeys with typewriters - I imagine that you'll eventually bury us all in meaningless blather, but you lost your audience long ago.

So keep typing, monkeyboy...

129 posted on 09/29/2008 12:17:21 PM PDT by an amused spectator (That would be... harsher punishment for parole violators, Stan.)
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To: an amused spectator
You're like the thousand monkeys with typewriters - I imagine that you'll eventually bury us all in meaningless blather, but you lost your audience long ago. So keep typing, monkeyboy...

I never cared about an audience, that's why I don't add a hundred people to my replies. I care about the truth, not for you or poor swordmaker, but for me and my kids.

My thing is science. Global warmingists, creationists, shroudies are anti-science. I hate that, but I love a good debate.

If you want to debate me, try knowing more about your pet pseudo-science than I do. Swordmaker doesn't and neither do the hordes of creationists on FR.

I study, and yes, I try to be right. Pick a subject rookie, but don't call me monkeyboy.

130 posted on 09/29/2008 2:42:02 PM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: Soliton
but for me and my kids.

Please! "I got to beat up on the Shroud of Turin - it's for the children."

My thing is science.

*shrug* I have a degree in science. Big deal.

Before trying to smear me as a "creationist" or pseudo-scientist, get your facts right.

I didn't say a thing about the Shroud.

I was talking about your debate style.

Observations:

#1 - Anything you type is apparently "right" by default, due to your "superior intellect".
#2 - Anyone that contradicts you is "wrong" - because you say so, and are willing to type so until your fingers fall off.

So, anyone reading your trash needn't bother, but should just refer to points #1 & #2. It'll save them time and bother.

BTW - a real scientific viewpoint of the Shroud would be "undetermined" - not enough data. All the gyrations of the Shroud Derangement Syndrome types and the shroudies are interesting, but the conclusion must be held in abeyance.

This is another reason why your posts are useless - you've already arrived at your pre-determined conclusion.

I ain't buying what you're selling, n00b.

131 posted on 09/29/2008 3:42:00 PM PDT by an amused spectator (That would be... harsher punishment for parole violators, Stan.)
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To: an amused spectator

“So, anyone reading your trash needn’t bother, but should just refer to points #1 & #2. It’ll save them time and bother....”

I wish I had taken your advice long ago, it probably would have saved me some aggravation.

Regards,

Scott

P.S. You have freepmail


132 posted on 09/29/2008 4:02:08 PM PDT by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: an amused spectator
#1 - Anything you type is apparently "right" by default, due to your "superior intellect". #2 - Anyone that contradicts you is "wrong" - because you say so, and are willing to type so until your fingers fall off.

my facts are facts regardless of my opinion. The FR "expert" on the shroud didn't know the facts. I'm sorry you don't like my style, but try to pay attention to SUBSTANCE

133 posted on 09/29/2008 4:17:17 PM PDT by Soliton (> 100)
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To: All

If this flamewar doesn’t end NOW this thread will be locked.
Grow up.


134 posted on 09/29/2008 4:19:11 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Soliton
my facts are facts regardless of my opinion.

Your "facts" are no different than the "facts" of the Democrats and the Main Stream Media.

You'll trumpet the "facts" that support your opinion, and suppress or attack the facts that undermine your position.

I learned long ago what that kind of skunk smells like, and it ain't a way to arrive at the truth of a matter.

Again, another reason why your posts are useless at arriving at the truth.

135 posted on 09/29/2008 4:21:59 PM PDT by an amused spectator (That would be... harsher punishment for parole violators, Stan.)
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To: Admin Moderator

Thanks. I’ll cease battle.


136 posted on 09/29/2008 4:22:41 PM PDT by an amused spectator (That would be... harsher punishment for parole violators, Stan.)
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March

Thanks.

Have felt it may well be authentic, for a long time.


137 posted on 09/29/2008 4:26:44 PM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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Comment #138 Removed by Moderator

To: Quix

It sounds to me like the Shroud leaves more questions than answers.

It’s cool, but I have a couple of questions.

I think the man portrayed looks more European than Middle Eastern.

Also, I got the impression Jesus’ burial cloths were wrapped around the body or wound around him, almost like a mummy, and the whole thing would have been heavily coated with myrrh and aloes. (John 19: 39-42)

I always wondered if a Crusader were crucified for some reason and the cloth had something to do with him.


139 posted on 09/29/2008 7:07:58 PM PDT by Cloverfarm (Children are a blessing ...)
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To: Cloverfarm

Lots of things are plausible.

The winding could have been on top of the current Shroud.

Eternity alone, likely, will tell.

Thx


140 posted on 09/29/2008 7:22:52 PM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: oh8eleven

What is the thread count?


141 posted on 09/29/2008 7:23:53 PM PDT by Silly (www.QuestionOthority.com, by Silly)
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To: Soliton
Nickles was the author of a book. He had a team of experts supporting him.

So was Maurice Sendak.

142 posted on 09/29/2008 8:43:39 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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Comment #143 Removed by Moderator

Comment #144 Removed by Moderator

Comment #145 Removed by Moderator

To: Soliton

Leave the thread.


146 posted on 09/29/2008 9:38:01 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: grey_whiskers; NYer; shroudie; MHGinTN; an amused spectator; count-your-change; DManA; aruanan; ...
You are merely a troll.

I won't go that far... but it is a possibility. However, I have not surrendered. I'm just fed up with his insults, ad hominem attacks on honorable people I knew, his non-responses to direct questions, his re-iterations of demonstrably false assertions, his assumption of venal motives in Shroud researchers, and his ignoring requests for proof of hid assertions, especially of his slanders and libels. He claims much but merely makes assertions without being willing to submit his sources. Most likely that is because they all come from biases skeptical inquirer type sources.

I am not addressing this to him, nor will I use his name in this post, so I will not be breaking FR protocols.

Let's review his statements of "fact" from this thread and debate them; my refutations are in red:


I have spent more than a month reading Everything on the shroud. (Stress mine - He refutes himself later in the thread: "I have read 13 books and untold articles on the shroud in the last month or so and can find no mention of it." Unless he is a speed reader, it is probably pretty close to impossible to read "everything" about the shroud in only one month.)

These goobers at Los Alamos are not representing Los Alamos, they are part of STURP. (ad hominem - again, the italics are mine.)

Three separate labs carbon dated the shroud to no earlier than 1290. (False: the Arizona lab reported the sample closest to the center of the Shroud at 1262 AD, plus or minus 31 years. Shows how much he "knows" the facts... but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He is mistaken. He made an error. He was wrong.)

STURP's whole history has been to try and undermine the science and history that shows the shroud to be a fake. (Ad hominem and Patently false. Also, the authenticity of the Shroud is currently undetermined. It will never be able to proved to be the Shroud of Jesus Christ.)

The Raes sample was NOT adjacent to the samples tested, but the Vatican DOES have the piece that was next to it. (False. His own source material cites the samples as being taken directly adjacent to the Raes Sample.)

Photographs of the samples analyzed show them to be 3:1 weave like the rest of the shroud and NO THREADS ARE MISSING. (Irrelevant and cannot be determined by such examination. Threads may have been removed from the edges where they would not show as missing.)

The Thermochemica Acta article referenced has been thoroughly refuted. (Assertion without proof. He has not provided any evidence this is true. He has made the claim, he must provide the evidence that qualified experts in the science reported have published peer-reviewed articles refuting Rogers findings, or provide citations of the peer-review of Rogers work that "refuted" his work.)

If the Vatican wants additional testing done, they have a sample in hand that could be used without disturbing the shroud, but they won't do it because they know it will verify that it is a fake. (Assertion without proof alleging malfeasance upon a large group of people.)

I am much smarter than you and my one month is worth more than your 15 years. I will prove it. (Ad hominem and insults)

There is no such thing. The goofballs who suggested it referred directly to "French Re-Weaving". I had a suit done in the 80's. It uses a matching peice of excess cloth from a hem that is then spliced in to match. In other words, if Benford and Marino were right, the patch would have had the same date as the original because it would have been original cloth. (False Statement from Authority, ad hominem, and misrepresentation of facts and of the Benford-Marino hypothesis. "French Invisible Reweaving" is a technique that does exist. Strawman: He presents as evidence another technique that is not the same.)

Also, the character on the shroud conveniently has his hands over his winkie as if anticipating that the "shroud" might be shown in church. (This is false although the refutation as not been published. The image on the Shroud, under enhancement, does actually very faintly include the male sexual organs - per personal conversation with Barrie Schwortz circa 2004)

This was common in medieval painting, but Jews were buried with their hands crossed on their chests. (Also false. The few intact 1st Century Jewish burials that have been found have been found with the arm bones lying at the sides where they fell after the binding around the wrists rotted away. None (so far) have been found with the arms crossed over the chest.)

Several of the “scientists” were from Los Alamos. (The use of quotation marks is intended as denigration. The scientists from Los Alamos had doctorates and more in their fields of scientific expertise.)

They took away McCrone’s samples and tried to ruin him. (True, they retrieved the samples McCrone refused to return, but there is no evidence anyone attempted to "ruin him." )

STURP used less sensitive tests for blood, and shazzam, they found it! (False - The tests were done later by experts in blood research. More on this later...)

In 1988, the Vatican had samples taken by experts under their supervision. (Implication that the experts have greater expertise than Rogers although their fields are entirely different. Or that the Vatican's experts cannot be mistaken. The expert, Riggi, unfortunately ignored the established protocols and cut the sample from the worst possible place.)

Although there is no evidence except his word, he supposedly took a warp and weft thread from the samples that were used for dating (this was suspiciously convenient since the samples were destroyed in the testing). (Implication of wrong doing and fraud. Ad Hominem)

The sampling had been very closely scrutinized and no one confirms the existence of these threads and microphotographs of the samples do not show any missing threads. (irrelevant)

Rogers wrote a paper that slipped through the peer review process (It was fully peer-reviewed as were the several dozens previous articles published by Rogers.)

Rogers’ paper was nonsense covered in pseudoscience. (False assertion without proof. It was thoroughly peer-reviewed. Any such "pseudoscience" would have been critiqued. Read Rogers' so-called pseudo-science article here.)

Interestingly, he stole from McCrone in it making claims he had ridiculed earlier. (False, ad hominem, and libelous claim without proof. In fact, the data about the Thermal conductivity of Linen that he claims was stolen from McCrone is easily found by a Google Search. )

The STURP true believers have lied, stolen, and violated Vatican rules to keep the myth alive. (false, ad hominem, and libelous claims without proof.)

It has been demonstrated that "melange" wouldn't have produced the date that was arrived at. (False. Easily calculated.)

Rogers claimed that the whole sample was from the 14th century and was a later invisible patch. (False. Strawman. Misrepresentation of Rogers claims.)

He claimed that Gonella gave him threads from the middle of the samples tested. This is a lie. No threads were missing from the samples. (False. There is no inventory of all the threads on the specific samples. There is one of the samples threads that have been taken, their source area, description, analysis, etc. Cataloguing is what science does best. The idea that there must be an obvious "missing" thread for Rogers statement to be true is ludicrous.)

No threads were missing from the samples. There is no provenance for the alleged threads. No one saw Gonella take them. (See above. The requirement for an evidence chain of custody is not a requirement in science... only in criminal investigations. He has attempted to redraft the discussion into a criminal act in numerous posts: ad hominem)

The samples tested in 1988 were not adjacent to the Raes sample. The Ricci sample was and the Vatican still has it. (Simply false. By the way, is it Ricci or Riggi? Both have taken samples from the Shroud. Which sample is he picking at nits about? He is confabulating. A single sample cut for the purpose of C14 testing, that was later cut into several segments and distributed or retained, does not change the position from where it was cut on the Shroud relative to the Raes Samples.)

They could not have sampled anything adjacent to the samples actually c-14 tested. (No one claimed new samples were taken. Strawman. see above)

2. Rogers did not have any part of the c-14 sample to test. It was all destroyed in the c-14 testing. (Rogers acquired threads from the retained sample of the singular C14 cutting—the part that was NOT destroyed in testing.)

3. The Raes sample that he allegedly had illegally was not adjacent to the c-14 test area. It was adjacent to the Ricci sample that the Vatican still has. (More ad hominem)

The Rogers Article in Acta was a joke. It was destroyed. (No foundation or proof for assertion. No citation of scientific articles "destroying" Rogers Thermochemica Acta article.)

Rogers’ vamnillin theory of dating has beed discredited. (No citation or proof of this assertion other than his unsupported claim.)

He claimed that the thermal resistance of linen (this is one part stolen from McCrone) would have meant that some vanillin would have been found somewhere on the shroud, but he claims that there was NO vanillin ANYWHERE on the shroud! (False, misrepresentation. The claim was that no vanillin was found on samples taken from elsewhere on the shroud. Here is what Rogers actually said in the article:

The major problem in estimating the age of the shroud is the fact that the rate law is exponential; i.e., the maximum diurnal temperature is much more important than is the lowest storage temperature. However, some reasonable storage temperatures can be considered to give a range of predicted ages. If the shroud had been stored at a constant 25◦C, it would have taken about 1319 years to lose a conservative 95% of its vanillin. At 23◦C, it would have taken about 1845 years. At 20◦C, it would take about 3095 years.

If the shroud had been produced between a.d. 1260 and 1390, as indicated by the radiocarbon analyses, lignin should be easy to detect. A linen produced in a.d. 1260 would have retained about 37% of its vanillin in 1978. The Raes threads, the Holland cloth, and all other medieval linens gave the test for vanillin wherever lignin could be observed on growth nodes. The disappearance of all traces of vanillin from the lignin in the shroud indicates a much older age than the radiocarbon laboratories reported.

The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally. The thermal conductivity of linen is very low, (formula not reproduced); therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot. The temperature gradient through the cloth in the reliquary should have been very steep, and the cloth’s center would not have heated at all in the time available. The rapid change in color from black to white at the margins of the scorches illustrates this fact.

Any heating at the time of the fire would decrease the amount of vanillin in the lignin as a function of the temperature and time heated; however, different amounts of vanillin would have been lost in different areas. No samples from any location on the shroud gave the vanillin test.

Because the shroud and other very old linens do not give the vanillin test, the cloth must be quite old. It is thus very unlikely that the linen was produced during medieval times.

. . .

The fact that vanillin can not be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicates that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggests that the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years.)

No such threads are known to exist AND photomicrographs of the samples show no threads missing. (Besides being both false and irrelevant, both Gonella and Rogers report the existence of "such threads." Again, the hint is that something illegal or unethical has occurred. That makes it ad hominem.)

Nickles was the author of a book. He had a team of experts supporting him. (Nope. Amateurs working in disciplines outside of their fields of expertise. Joe Nickell has a degree in English Literature and is not a scientist.)

The Riggi sample was examined after the c-14 tests. A "bioplastic film" was allegedly found, but there was NO mention of cotton or reweaving. (They were not looking for reweaving or for cotton. They were looking for contaminants—things that don't belong adhering to the fibers—the reweaving was found only when someone started looking for anomalies.)

The Vatican, seeing the risk of having this sample in the public domain scarfed it up and hid it away. (Again, unsupported hints of malfeasance and complicity in a criminal activity. ad hominem)

Gonella and Rogers colluded to make it so. (Ad hominem and reprehensible.)

As to your alleged expertise on the subject, you are an apologist for the proathenticity group. You believe whatever they say without question or objectivity. (False. Just because I disagree with him does not make me unquestioning or lacking in objectivity. Ad hominem)

You are simply wrong when you say that te Raes sample contacted ANY of the c-14 test area. (False—see above)

No. The alleged threads that Rogers used ARE NOT the same as the sample used by Dr. Garza-Valdes. Valdez used the Riggi sample. (repeating what I already told him, pretending to correct a false statement, is a form of ad hominem.)

There is NO record of these threads ever existing prior to Rogers' article and NO chain of custody. (already dealt with)

Photpmicrographs show whole pieces without missing threads. (Threads can be removed from the edges of "whole pieces" without being obvious. The whole piece is still the whole piece.)

Unfortunately for Rogers, he did what pseudo-scientists frequently do--He overreached by saying that the shroud is between 1300 and 3000 years old. (see above. Misrepresentation of Rogers' actual claims. Also libel and ad hominem attack on a respected scientist now deceased.)

His tests actually have a range of 1300 to whenever flax evolved-- tens of thousands of years. Real peer review would have caught such an obvious mistake. (False. There is an upper limit to the range the Vanillin tests can detect: once vanillin content reaches zero, it is useless. 3000 years was an upper limit of age that could possibly be determined by the vanillin content IF the object had been kept at an average temperature of 20ºC and more than 95% of the original vanillin had been lost. Age beyond that is unknowable. Rogers detailed the temperature assumptions he used (and their limits) in the body of the article. However, Rogers used the test to determine whether the Shroud could be as young as 840 years. He stated only that the vanillin content of the samples from the main body of the shroud "suggested" that the Shroud was from 1300 YO (if average storage temperature was 25ºC) to 3000 YO (if the average storage temperature was 20ºC) That is neither pseudo-science or overreaching.)

The Italian team actually used highly sensitive tests specifically for blood. They were actually MORE sensitive for old blood because it is more concentrated. (False. The Italian team used standard tests for fairly recent blood. The next sentence is total idiocy. Old blood is degraded and denatured and has broken down to components and derivative compounds.)

Adler et al didn't use tests specific for blood, but for components of blood. (False, The Italian Team's forensic serologists (specialists in blood analysis in criminalistics) and McCrone (a microscopist), not being specialists in very old blood, attempted and failed to get the 'blood' samples into solution using standard solvents: acetic acid, oxygenated water, or glycerin of potassium. Although they failed to get the blood into solution, they went ahead and performed the presumptive phenolphthalein and benzidine tests on the old, dried, non-solubilized denatured blood—and as a result concluded that the blood was not real. However, blood experts Heller and Adler have both stated that it is extremely difficult to get very old, denatured blood into solution. "If it's not in solution, you can't obtain a positive test."

Not only did Heller and Adler, once they got the blood to solubilize, successfully perform the presumptive tests for blood that McCrone and the 1973 Italian team attempted, they went even further and used many more sophisticated tests that were beyond the ability of the non-specialists McCrone or even the members of the Italian team. These tests include:

Nickell et al have shown that these tests show positives for the kind of paint Rogers admitted were on the shroud. (False. They merely claim that. They are not experts in the fields they are critiquing. Their work is not peer-reviewed... heck, it's not even reviewed. They are amateurs. Nickell's primary science advisor is a geologist, hardly someone who is competent in bio-chemistry, much less the very difficult area of blood, porphyrins, or hemoglobin. Rogers also comments, as have other researchers, that whatever pigments (Paint) that is on the Shroud is environmental and not in sufficient quantities to rise to visibility and is randomly distributed with no correlation to any image or non-image areas.)

Argue the facts dimbulb. (ad hominem attack on a fellow freeper.)

The FR "expert" on the shroud didn't know the facts. (I agree I don't know his peculiarly twisted facts gleaned from skeptical amateurs' books and websites. I also will admit I don't keep up on the ancillary personalities involved with the Italian Shroud community.)


His links on this entire thread, to back up his claims, follow:

This link does tend to impeach Benford and Marino... but their role is merely that they made an observation and proposed a hypothesis. They are not involved in the proof of what they proposed. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

This one actually provides statistical proof of Rogers' and Villareal's conclusions about the C14 sample. He thinks it works to prove his false thesis that the C14 samples are not taken from the same area as the Raes sample.


All in all, his posts are an excellent example of the anti-Christian, Atheist, skeptic approach to argument... obfuscate, misrepresent, denigrate, ridicule, and slur those involved who disagree with you. He says he likes to debate. He just doesn't do it very well.

Any comments any of you'd care to add? Should be interesting. Keep it civil, please.

147 posted on 09/29/2008 11:04:51 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Remember, the proper pronunciation of IE is "AAAAIIIIIEEEEEEE!)
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Comment #148 Removed by Moderator

To: grey_whiskers

You are posting to someone who believes the force of gravity changes, and you appear to be defending people who believe pyramids sharpen razor blades.


149 posted on 09/30/2008 4:36:45 AM PDT by js1138
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To: js1138
?????
150 posted on 09/30/2008 4:41:51 AM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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