Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
Posted on 10/03/2008 5:30:58 PM PDT by TaraP
Are we, as Christians, to judge other people? Did Jesus judge people in his ministry?
As you know, there are many in the religious world today who claim that it is an outright sin to judge other people. They say these things especially at times when they, individually, are caught red handed within some particular sin or another or some particular false doctrine or another.
They say this as an excuse from dealing with the truth of God's word on any particular subject in which they have learned that they stand condemned before God.
The passages that are often cited in support of this defense are: Matthew 7:1, John 12:47, James 4:11. I will endeavor to deal with these passages in this answer as well as cite a few passages that support the idea of making appropriate judgments.
First Matthew 7:1 is often cited as the quintessential passage against judging another. Verse one is quoted most often, "Judge not that you be not judged." Many times this passage is quoted and completely taken out of its original context.
It is quoted to mean that one should NEVER judge another. However, this is not what the passage means and this is not what the original context of this passage means. By examining what the passage says in verses 2-4 you will find that Jesus is not talking about all judging.
Jesus is talking about hypocritical judging. Jesus says, "Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
The point of judgment about which Jesus is referring is when the one judging has a fault within his life bigger than the fault in the life of the one whom he is judging. So this person is being a hypocrite in judging.
That is the kind of judging that Jesus is condemning. So to use this passage to say that ALL judging is wrong is simply a misuse of the passage. To use this passage to say such would to bring Jesus into contradiction with himself, because Jesus said in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." So there you have Jesus saying directly to "judge righteous judgment" and therein lies the difference between the two. The one type of judgment--hypocritical judgment--is condemned. The other type of judgment--righteous judgment--is approved and encouraged.
In John 12:47 we read, "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." This passage, upon initial reading, certainly appears as if Jesus is saying that he did not come to judge the world. Does Jesus mean by this that we are to make no personal judgments in our life regarding others? This is not what Jesus is saying at all. Once again, context is key to understanding this verse. In the very next verse, John 12:48, Jesus says, "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." We see from verse 48 that Jesus DOES judge. He judges at the appropriate time--at the last day. We will be judged by Jesus' words and so we must live by them and judge ourselves by them each and every day of our life, to prepare for that great Day of Judgment. We also use Jesus words to teach other people and in so teaching them, it is not we who judge, but the words of Jesus that judge. In addition, the word judge in verse 47 is used in the sense of condemn. It was not Jesus purpose when he first came to condemn mankind. It was his purpose to provide for man's salvation. So the judging that Jesus is saying that he does not do in this passage has no bearing upon personal judgments that we may make one with another.
James 4:11, 12 states, "Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?" This passage is a little more difficult to understand, but I think that we can get the essence of it. First, this type of judging has to do with speaking evil of someone else. The Christian ought never to do this. In fact, we are to give blessing to others, not cursing according to 1 Peter 3:9. So the passage starts with the idea of a Christian who is speaking evil of another Christian. When we personally make judgments against another brother and speak evil of him, then we become a judge instead of one who is practicing the law. We also then judge the law, because we pronounce our own personal judgments upon others particularly when the law does not condemn them. I think that is what this passage is discussing. That is, it is specifically in regard to speaking evil against others. So the judgment that is being made has already been condemned--it is an "evil" judgment, not a righteous one.
The Bible teaches that there is a sense in which the Christian must judge. This is to judge based upon the word of God. Remember, when we judge in this manner, we are not judging someone, but the word of God is judging. Let's look at a few passages. First, in 1 Corinthians 5:12 Paul says, "Do you not judge them that are within?" Here, Paul is talking about judging Christians who are not living according to the standards that Christ sets for them. In particular, he was talking about the fornicator that was among them. However, Paul does not limit this process to just fornication. He says in verse 11, "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." We are, in fact, obligated to judge Christians who are engaged in these sinful situations. In the very next chapter, we also notice 1 Corinthians 6:1-3. This passage teaches that instead of going to a court of law to settle differences between Christians, we are to judge such matters among ourselves. Here is another form of judging that the Christian is to do. Finally, notice also Matthew 7:16-20. This passage teaches that we are to judge men according to their fruits. As we mentioned earlier in John 7:24, Jesus said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." Jesus also said in Matthew 7:6 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Who are the "dogs" in this passage? Who are the "swine" in this passage? How do we determine that? We must make judgments. We, as Christians, have obligations to judge certain situations. Jesus taught us to do this in regard to false teachers, people who are not living morally, and those who have proven themselves unworthy of the gospel. Jesus also taught us not to judge inappropriately. We should not judge hypocritically. We should not judge unrighteously, and we should not judge in a condemnatory fashion.
For discussion
The liberals very often confuse the two and make it one.
We are not to judge them, but rather judge their actions. “You shall know them by their fruit.”
Tell that to Dubya. He seems to have a martyr complex. To some extent, so does McCain.
We cannot judge a man’s heart. That is God’s job alone. However, we can judge actions.
Nup! Can't be. Jesus said not to. (But He's God, so he gets a pass.... gods can do that....we on the other hand are spiritual cripples....whata drag.)
All people are invited to Faith in Christ’s Atonement.
Christians, all of us are far from perfect. Including me for sure, LOL.
Hence we are assured of the Advocate (1 John 2:1).
It is not a license to wanton sin, though.
To me, judging is using your wisdom and discernment to tell good from evil, essentially. I am mandated to judge others, so that I am not blindsided by sentimentality. Discernment is, I believe, proactive vs passive. Which is what I see in the libs — passivity, fear of nonconformity, fear of taking a stand.
What a disgusting way to live.
I agree...We always have to watch out for the wolves who do come in Sheep’s Clothing...
Matt 24:3-14
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many....
The whole idea of judgment is part of the human experience. As a creature with a free will we daily have to make judgments on people and events so that we can react to them.
Even the decision to serve God is a moral judgment.
“OF THOSE ON THE OUTSIDE, GOD IS THE JUDGE. OF THOSE ON THE INSIDE, YOU ARE THE JUDGES.”
Meaning... unbelievers outside the church who do not claim Christ have no way to overcome their sin, and also no need to be preaching pseudoChristian doctrines. But those who claim Christ are up for scrutiny and discernment and yes, judgment if they are in sin or are preaching “any other Gospel” or “adding to the Word of God.”
Most people forget that Paul and Jesus were after False Teachers and False Prophets because they were claiming to be Christians. Of these, any Christian has every right to nail them on their specious teachings or “prophesies” ala Joseph Smith of the Mormons or Todd Bentley of Lakeland this summer.
ping!
Well, we'd have to, if our occupation was a judge.
Jesus drove the moneychangers from the temple. The moneychangers and people that sold animals for sacrifice were performing a legitimate service, but their motivation was wrong and they were taking advantage of people. He was clearly judging them for being greedy and taking advantage of others. (Kind of like some of the folks on Wall Street we see today, maybe?)
ping!
I heard one (probably on FR!) where the old preacher said something like: “I’m not a Judge - more like a Fruit Inspector”. Thought that was pretty good.
Hate the sin; love the sinner.
Exactly. Jesus set the standard. It’s not judging to see when someone falls short of that; that’s just the facts.
It’s our reaction to the other’s sin where the problem can come in, not recognizing it.
A gentle old lady I knew,
Was dozing one day in her pew,
When the preacher yelled “Sin!”
She said,”Count me in!
As soon as the service is through!”
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
Sorry, misread. I thought it said not to judge other people. I think we should not judge anyone. Wish FR had an edit feature.
We are not to judge their salvation. But we ARE to judge their actions.
How can you not judge them, yet judge their actions? Actually, judgment is a different matter altogether.
You can very well judge someone if you’re not practicing the same sin. For example, if someone is committing adultery, you know it too, yet you are practicing the same sin and judge them, then what does that make you? Doesn’t that make a person a hypocrite? See the difference?
Yahushua (aka Jesus) states:
Joh 8:15 You judge according to the flesh. I judge no one.
Joh 3:17 For eloah did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Yeah, that’s right, he didn’t come to judge the world yet. Does anyone ever ask why? Well, how fair would it be for him to judge us now in our lowly physical state being that he was already in a higher physical state? Does that make sense now? This is why he didn’t come to judge when he became a fleshly adam (generic name also for people-kind) by the power of the sacred ruach. He was literally altered from his previous state with his heavenly father and emptied into the egg of his mother, Miriam. He was the first of his kind, a composite adam, a firstborn: 1/2 sacred ruach, 1/2 adam from his mother. This is why he knew things that others didn’t know, why his body didn’t corrupt at death like ours would, which would happen pretty quickly for us, why he could fast longer, why at 12 years old at the Temple he knew the teachings of Scriptures better than the best trained priest. He had an incorruptible fleshly body.
Act 2:31 foreseeing, he spoke about the resurrection of the messiah, “that His nephesh was not left in sheol, nor did His flesh see corruption.” LXX-Psa. 15:10; Mt-Psa. 16:10
Go ahead, ask those questions to yourself and the answers are directly in the Bible too.
“We are not to judge them, but rather judge their actions. “You shall know them by their fruit.”
I was about to write a comment when I realized you had already posted my sentiments exactly!
Thanks
“..facts and reason” may give us an insight into the actions of others, but because our perceptions remain based in our own understandings, it can easily prevent us from making a “discriminative judgment” .
Perhaps that’s precisely why Our Lord admonished us to “judge not, lest we ourselves be judged”.
We can discriminate between the good or bad that we may see in the actions of others, in order to choose for ourselves that which we would want or not want to do, but we have not been commissioned to judge them as a matter of fiat—as if we were the one to arbitrate the consequences. That alone belongs to God.
I think you are right to say that “we can’t judge a man’s heart—that is God’s job alone”.
As for “judging actions”, I think that can still put us into a judging mode.
I think that it’s better to observe, and to make choices for ourselves—whether, seeing the actions of another person, we would want to do likewise or not.
In that way, I see it not as judging, but as discerning.
I don’t see any Scriptural mandate for judging others.
Would you please offer an example of such a mandate from Scripture?
I can’t see how Our Lord’s mandate to us to love one another could at the same time “blind-side” us with “sentimentality”.
Paul also admonishes us to “consider others as better than ourselves” and Peter admonishes us to “respect the person of every man.”
Would their admonishions be considered a chance of being “blind-sided by sentimentality”?
I agree that “it’s our reaction to other’s sins where problems can come in”.
Our reactions are very often judgmental and made partial by our own perceptions and understandings, which can be limited or narrowly focused.
After all, we are not God—Who knows all that is in the hearts of men.
admonishions = admonishments
I think that it is much more typical for fallen humans (i.e. all of us) ... to judge others' sins, ... rather that our own.
Even to the point where we make much of others' motes, ... even we have logs os sin in our own lives.
I think that Jesus' admonition essentially says that ... if we were to spend the necessary time rooting out the logs of sin in our own lives ... we won't have nearly as much time to point out the motes of sin in other's lives.
Also, I think that Jesus is only concerned with relations between believers here ... and potential believers. Jesus seems to be not so concerned with the sin of the unbelieving community, though He does seem to indicate that a center of holiness within the community (i.e. the Temple in His day) should be preserved and defended.
Note how He tenderly, yet forthrightly ... points out the sin of the woman at the well. He makes the offer of life to her, ... and then, gently, points out her need for His gift. Jesus focus' upon sin ... is always a means to an end. It is never gratuitous.
In general, I believe that the New Testament admonition on sin ... is that we should avoid it (or even the appearance), ... make ourselves the primary focus of the need to purge ourselves from sin, ... and then ... to lovingly guide our brethren from participation in sin ... when we happen to become aware of it.
Someone always comes along and says it in a far better way than I can ever say it :-)
I do thank God for that.
Your post expresses so well the very thoughts I was tring to convey.
“Ye brood of vipers.”
I find Scripture to frame the question differently.
Gen 2:16-17
(16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
(17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:4-5
(4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
(5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Our salvation from death, though is not premised upon our knowledge of good and evil, rather it is based upon thinking,
Believe in me and you will be saved,...
We are saved by faith alone and not by works, lest any man should boast.
Same word in the Greek is used, Pisteo, for believe and faith in these passages.
In the Old Testament, we are shown how God’s Holiness is comprised of His Perfect Righteousness facing His Perfect Justice in the Arc of the Covenant and its Mercy Seat, whereupon resided the Shekinah Glory, the second person of the Godhead.
God’s Perfect Righteousness demands Judgment when faced with unrighteousness, while His Perfect Justice demands righteous judgment.
Christ on the Cross was the case of Judgment of all the sin of mankind, thereby freeing God to effect a policy of grace to all mankind for His wrath was propitiated and atoned, man was reconciled to God, Man was redeemed from the slave market of sin, and justified through faith found to be righteous.
Human good plus sin equals evil. If sin comes first, then human good is parlayed into evil through motivation. If human good comes first, then sin is parlayed into evil.
It is far better to perform a few good work through faith in Christ than many good works separate from faith in Him, for those are simply parlayed into evil and have already received their reward prior to the Great White Throne Judgment.
Discernment and judgment is not only appropriate but demanded by perfect holiness, but when performed independent of faith through Christ results in arrogance and sinful motivation parlayed into evil.
Our perspective of God while in fellowship with Him is that of observing His love and grace, while after we sin, our perspective of His holiness focuses upon his immutable requirement for perfect justice and his righteousness demanding judgment. We have a fearful expectation of a firey judgment after postsalvation sin.
Through faith in Christ, when we return to Him and confess our sins, through faith in Christ, He is sure and just to forgive us those sins and we are returned to fellowship with Him. Once again we walk with Him perceiving His love and grace.
His holiness, though, shall not tolerate good and evil intermixes forever, rather there will be a sorting out and discrimination of good and evil, separating evil from good prior to the eternal state.
God doesn’t need Crusaders to perform His Will, rather His Will is for all men to be provided salvation through faith in Christ.
Jesus, who “ did not deem equality with God something to be grasped” (Phil. 2), is the One who can issue the rebuke to the Pharisees that He did in the temple. He alone is God and He alone can call out those who are hypocrites.
As for me and my house, I would rather continually ask for and thank Him for His mercy and forgiveness.
It’s not my place to point out sinners and hypocrites. As I previously wrote, that is for God to do, not me.
I could say “it’s above my pay grade”.
Only if we have no standard by which to stack it up by. However, discriminative judgment is to base facts and reason up against the Ten Commandments of God, if spiritual laws have been violated in any way.
For instance, stealing. That's an easy one. If someone took something that didn't belong to them, it's still stealing, whether they get caught on earth or not. But God knows the act, the motive behind it, and He will render His judgment on whether that person is a thief. The person he stole from would definitely think he's a thief. The law, if he's caught, will sentence him as a thief.
The good news is that Jesus forgave the thief crucified next to him, and He knew all of the guy's crimes. The thief acknowledged he deserved his punishment and asked for Jesus to remember him, and he was given the assurance of paradise.
Anything short of repentance is just rationalizing sin.
This is what God says about the matter.
Ezekiel 3:20
Again, When a righteous man does turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because you have not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at your hand.
A warning is not the same as judging. That was the topic of this thread—whether it is right to judge others.
I also see , from this familiar text from Ezekiel, that the duty of warning was given to one of the four major prophets. He was given a work so important to do that it is recorded in one of the books of the Old Testament named after him.
In the new covenant, we who are Christ-bearers would do well to listen to the words of the Lord and his apostles in the New Testament-—words that are delivered to us, who not major prophets, but rather witnesses and disciples.
For that reason, I personally believe that our conduct towards others, whether they be Christians or not, must be of the same spirit as Jesus demonstrated to the woman at the well, to Matthew the tax-collecor, to Nathaniel, to Thomas, and all the others. It is one of benevolence and invitation.
I am comfortable with that rather than with judging.
It is a form of judgment, because you have to judge the action or conduct as being wrong (i.e. against God's law) in order to warn someone about it.
I have a family member who committed identity theft. I warned him that God will judge him if he kept on with his white-collar crimes and didn't change his ways. Only time will tell if he'll do that, but at least his blood will not be on my hands.
No one else in the family wanted to confront him, for fear of "offending" him or "judging him" but inwardly they were steamed up about it. They were tiptoeing around, being hypocrites by pretending that everything was just fine and dandy when they knew it was not.
I know I did the right thing and I hope he changes for his salvation's sake. For the record, the family breathed a huge sigh of relief that one of us had the balls to give it to him straight.
In the final analysis, I'd sooner see him in jail, where you get out eventually, than in Hell where you don't. I wasn't doing him any favors by keeping silent.
You did the right thing.
In the same way, we warn our children—even when they have reached adulthood—if they need it. I have done so myself.
But to warn someone is to evaluate a situation—and shouldn’t be confused or equated with judgment.
The Lord tells us that judgment is His.
A judge passes sentence or remission.
To warn someone does neither.
So you were right to remind your family member of God’s judgment rather than your own.
Your warning was an invitation to repent.
“Do you not know that God’s kindness is an invitation to repent?” Romans 1:4
I am very comfortable with my thoughts on this matter.
> How can you not judge them, yet judge their actions?
Because a sinful action will always be sinful before God.
Whereas a sinner has hope of redemption, in ways many times only known to God himself.
Yours sounded more like warning than judging. Judging I see more as when people condemn others’ souls because they were/are a certain way. As seen on some threads when a celebrity dies.
“As for “judging actions”, I think that can still put us into a judging mode.
I think that it’s better to observe, and to make choices for ourselves—whether, seeing the actions of another person, we would want to do likewise or not.
In that way, I see it not as judging, but as discerning.”
Yes, that is part of judging. But from what you say, we shouldn’t judge murderers and throw them in jail—just decide we aren’t going to murder like they did.
It’s not fashionable to be judgemental in this morally relativistic day and age, but the truth is we are to judge actions, but not condemn people to Hell. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Part of the reason the world is going to Hell is because people are afraid to use judgement anymore—it’s not “inclusive and tolerant.”
“...from what you say, we shouldn’t judge murderers and throw them in jail”.
Now I never said any such thing.
I’m well aware that we are to render unto Caesar that which is Caeser’s.
The systems of law and of prosecution-and-defense, and judging and sentencing certainly belong to civil society.
This thread asks if as Christians we are to judge other people. The title also goes on to ask “Did Jesus judge people in his ministry?” As for that, Jesus certainly publicly rebuked the Pharisees, and called Herod a “vixen” (which by the way, is a female fox). But I would like to have someone show me a Scripture text in which He personally and publicly condemned any one person to hell.
He warned us that there was such a place , and He told us to avoid doing what would put us at risk of ending up there.
That is a different consideration from civil law and order in civil structures.
As intelligent people, we are able to discern when the actions and/or words of others works for good or not. That’s so obvious.
What we are not commissioned to do is to judge—based on our own limited knowledge, understanding and perception of the hearts and minds of others.
To judge is to exercise a decision to sentence or offer release. We don’t have that power over the spiritual lives of others.
In the spiritual life, I see that exercise of judgment as belonging to God alone—especially since He told us so Himself.
Nor should we condemn anyone-—”neither do I condemn you—go and sin no more”.
As witnesses and disciples of Jesus Christ, we are to offer a “more excellent way”, a generosity in bringing the Good News, an attitude like that of the father of the prodigal son. He waited in patience and hope for the return of his son.
I don’t think it’s “fashionable” in any age to be judgmental of others who we interact with in a way that is counter-productive and harmful.
Public figures who have given examples of immorality and corruption for all to see can’t be exempt from scrutiny or criticism. That’s to be expected. Still, no one should feel privileged to condemn such people by saying they are going to hell. Our Lord told us that prostitutes and tax collectors may get to heaven before we do. We ought to take Him at His word.
That’s all I want to say about this subject.
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment
Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”
When I see someone testing the validity of the Law, instead of allowing the Law to test them, they've allowed themselves to be lost.
Legal theft on behalf of the weak is one way that sin is rationalized. Gone, is much of the necessity for people to choose to help those less fortunate. Let the government take care of them. Gone, is the direct connection between those giving & those receiving. Bellies get filled, but souls get emptied, specially since many of us don't love the poor, we resent them.
People having sexual relations outside of marriage is a sin. I know, because the Law says it is. How many Christians rationalize ways around this Law? People marry later in life than they once did, so sexual relations outside of marriage is to be expected, right? People now live longer than they once did, so serial monogamy is to be expected, right?
We delude ourselves when we believe some sins are worse than other sins. Is committing murder a worse sin than theft? Is murder worse than adultery? If you believe it is, you are judging the Law, instead of allowing the Law to judge your beliefs & you have a worldly, fleshy god higher than God.
“Who am I to judge? Who are you to judge?” <\sarc>
?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.