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Apocalypse soon
SignOnSanDiego ^ | October 4, 2008 | Sandi Dolbee

Posted on 10/07/2008 8:41:53 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

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To: mlocher; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; topcat54; Just mythoughts; Quix; Mr. Mojo; RockinRight; svcw; ...

You said — I think a more applicable question would be, “What does the Bible have to say about the rapture?”

Now, I agree with that, for sure. BUT, you must remember that this “issue” was raised by others, in that there was no one who ever understood that the Bible taught that (i.e., the “Rapture”, or being “taken up”).

So, this was not given as an answer from authority on the “teaching of the Rapture” — but rather — only an answer to some “criticism” that no one else ever saw the same thing (before) in history. And that was clearly not the case — as has been shown here.

NOW, having said that — indeed — the Bible is the authority for this teaching and not whether someone taught it five years ago, 100 years ago or 1,000 years ago.

In that light — *even* the “criticism” (from others) is illegitimate (according to your “thinking” above) because their criticism seems to indicate that for the Bible to have something to say “authoritatively” about an issue — it *must* have been “authenticated” by another person’s commentary and writing on the matter, sometime in ancient history (or else, the Bible is not “authoritative” on the issue). That’s absolutely false thinking.

No matter *when* a teaching is “promoted” by “people” — the Bible, alone and by itself, is the only authoritative teaching on the matter — no matter how many years or centuries it takes “people” to “discover” it.

You must remember that the “church” is something that was not known or taught about in the centuries before Jesus. It was a new thing. Now, I’m not saying the teaching of the Rapture was a new thing (because it wasn’t and it was quite old, going back many centuries) — but I’m just saying that to make a “criticism” on the basis of the “age of a teaching” is not legitimate.

AND..., from that standpoint — indeed, the Bible does teach such a thing as the Rapture (being caught up, taken up — forcefully, as in “Strong’s”).

Thanks for making that point and perhaps it will take people away from trying to make a big issue on “when” a teaching became known to the public and rather — into the authoritative word of God (instead).


101 posted on 10/08/2008 11:24:44 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: XeniaSt

Amen to that!


102 posted on 10/08/2008 11:25:56 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler
LOL

;-)

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

103 posted on 10/08/2008 11:27:32 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: Star Traveler
You must remember that the “church” is something that was not known or taught about in the centuries before Jesus. It was a new thing.

A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.

Was the "church" started at the YHvH commanded
Feast day of Shavuot (pentecost) as some say ?

or

Did the "church" exist earlier ?

Using the LXX as a guide we see that the Ekklesia
is first used in Deuteronomy 4:10

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God
at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let
them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on
the earth, and that they may teach their children.'
Also see : Deu 4:10, Deu 9:10, Deu 18:16, Deu 23:3, Deu 23:4, Deu 23:9, Deu 31:30,
Jos 9:2, Jda 20.2, Jda 21:5, Jda 21:8, Jdg 20:2 Jdg 21:5, Jdg 21:8, 1 Sa 17:47,
1 Sa 19:20, 1 Ki 8:14, 1 Ki 8:22, 1 Ki 8:55, 1 Ki 8:65, 1 Ch 13:2, 1 Ch 13:4, 1 Ch 28:2,
1 Ch 28:8
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
104 posted on 10/08/2008 11:49:21 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt

I would have to do a lot more reading up on it to comment more thoroughly. Several things do come to mind, though. While the LLX is a translation from the original language that renders that word (that you reference, Ekklesia), I would think that one would want to go to the original language for a more thorough understanding of what was being said originally.

Now, for the New Testament, it was written in Greek, so that would be legitimate. For the Old Testament, I would want to hear how some of those language scholars compare the original language to the Greek version. And then, one would want to get into things like context and to whom it was written and so on.

The other initial thought that I had was that this would tend to mix up the distinction between the Jews and the Church, as the Bible speaks to these different groups and in different ways. If the Jews are the Church and the Church is the equivalent (or maybe a superset of the Jews) — then that would seem to play into Replacement Theology, in that the Church has assumed all the promises of God, which were given to the Jews (i.e., national Israel) and Israel has forfeited their rights and/or promises (to the Church).

Anyway, these are not really developed thoughts but only initial ones and I would have to go further into it and see where it leads. If it leads to the wrong places, then there would definitely be something wrong with it.

That remains to be seen...


105 posted on 10/08/2008 12:02:47 PM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler


Very specifically: Romans 11 where Paul discusses who is grafted into whom.

NAsbU Romans 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off,
and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them
and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,


NAsbU Romans 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off
so that I might be grafted in."

Paul warns against the pride of a Gentile follower of Yah'shua.

NAsbU Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God;
to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

NAsbU Romans 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief,
will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

A Jew who comes to know the Jewish Messiah for their salvation
does not become a Christian,
They become a "called out one", a member of the Ekklesia.
They become a Messianic Jew.
The L-rd's name ( Shem ) is not je-zeus;
it is Yah'shua ( YHvH is my salvation )


NAsbU Romans 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Which is why you must call on His Name for salvation.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

106 posted on 10/08/2008 12:12:32 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: Star Traveler; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; topcat54; Just mythoughts; Quix; Mr. Mojo; RockinRight
In that light — *even* the “criticism” (from others) is illegitimate (according to your “thinking” above) because their criticism seems to indicate that for the Bible to have something to say “authoritatively” about an issue — it *must* have been “authenticated” by another person’s commentary and writing on the matter, sometime in ancient history (or else, the Bible is not “authoritative” on the issue). That’s absolutely false thinking.

We will have to agree to disagree on what the Bible teaches about the rapture. Nonetheless, I am sure that we can find common ground on John 3:16 as one of the key passages to describe a member of the invisible church.

I understand your argument about man not having to authenticate the Word of God. I agree that the Word of God stands on its own. My point is that there have been, throughout history, false teachers who teach one part of the Bible but ignore its message in its entirety. People unequipped with a broad understanding of the Bible and are in a teaching position can quite easily lead someone astray. In fact, at the time of the Reformation there were a number of teachers who thought they could go outside of the Church's boundaries now that they had "permission" to read the Bible. They were unequipped to teach, yet they in some cases collated large crowds. Sadly, in many of these cases, these crowds met an awful fate at the hands of authorities. It is still necessary for those that teach the Word of God to be solidly grounded in that word. The Bible must be used to interpret the Bible, not another man's commentaries. It is a self consistent book incapable of contradicting itself. Those who think they can teach who know but some of the Bible are mistaken. That is my point.

So, this was not given as an answer from authority on the “teaching of the Rapture” — but rather — only an answer to some “criticism” that no one else ever saw the same thing (before) in history. And that was clearly not the case — as has been shown here

I am not arguing the history of the definition of the rapture. As an amateur historian, I find such debates interesting, but in terms of growing my faith, a distraction. I understand your point and have no further comment.

107 posted on 10/08/2008 12:18:30 PM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: Star Traveler
What is that Great Tribulation ? Knowing that will give the believer the key to who it is tossed out upon this earth prior to the descent of our Savior. Nobody is going anywhere even though the great 'deception' will be somebody is promising to fly out those souls so they won't have to deal with that Great Tribulation.

Christ said let no man deceive you.... so what is that GREAT deception that was continually warned would occur????? Ever heard of the mark of the 'beast'? Well it is what is in the mind and how that the physical labor is put forth via that right hand for the beast 'system'.

108 posted on 10/08/2008 12:24:14 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Star Traveler; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; mlocher; Just mythoughts
Well, I would say it’s kind of hard to talk about the issue and those three documents that were referenced in the article (plus the English translation that was given for one) — when you say — “There are none.”

Just for the record and so we are not talking past one another, why don't you post the quotes from these ancient authors which you believe teaches a pre-trib rapture theory.

109 posted on 10/08/2008 12:25:19 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Star Traveler
Israel was given specific duties.... Christ gave opportunity to ALL to be party to salvation but did NOT dismiss the duties already assigned to Israel... meaning literally the TEN tribes which Christ made note of in His first instruction to the disciples in Matthew 10:5-6.

Sadly most modern Christians have NO clue who those of Israel literally are.... there were and are two houses that it is written that it will be Christ Himself that will rejoin and He was NOT talking about a piece of real estate that in modern times got called Israel. Remember that ‘civil’ war wherein the two houses were split and the Northern kingdom called ten tribe/Israel were sent into captivity to the Assyrian king and then the House of Judah with Benjamin were sent to the king of Babylon????

110 posted on 10/08/2008 12:31:44 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Star Traveler; Just mythoughts
They are called servants of God and, “as such” — they *will definitely* be following the commands of Jesus Christ — especially the one that He gave as the primary mission for all who believe and trust in Him — which is to proclaim the Gospel to the whole world and to every person, tribe, nation and peoples.

Yah, so? If that all it takes (speculation) to classify someone as a worldwide evangelist of incomparable proportions, then you can pretty much have the Bible say anything you want it to say.

We can see that this time of the Tribulation, besides being a time of Judgement is also a time of proclaiming the Gospel, too, as the angel is sent out to proclaim it all over the world.

Hmmm, curious. Rather than try to explain why angels (and only angels) in the book are the ones specifically identified as preaching the gospel, you want to extend that to the group symbolically referred to as the one hundred and forty four thousand in order to bolster your end-time theories. All with hype about worldwide evangelization.

But, I’ll guarantee you that these 144,000 won’t have their priorities wrong

More speculation. Based on what? You still haven’t told us from the Bible exactly who they are and what they will be doing or why there were identified by God.

111 posted on 10/08/2008 12:35:16 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: XeniaSt; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; Gamecock
There are some on this thread that pridefully think that they do !

They call their brothers "RACA" for not agreeing with their anti-semitism.

Feigned humility is most unbecoming. but if that fails, just toss out the "A"-word.

112 posted on 10/08/2008 12:39:40 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: topcat54
just toss out the "A"-word.

That's an automatic forfeit, isn't it?

Looks like I got ~75 posts to catch up on.

113 posted on 10/08/2008 12:43:41 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You observe days and months and seasons and years! " --Paul)
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To: Star Traveler; mlocher; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; Just mythoughts
You must remember that the “church” is something that was not known or taught about in the centuries before Jesus. Dispensationalism 101.

Actually, the Bible makes it pretty clear that the Church, God’s called out people, has existed in all ages. It was foretold to Abraham, who was called the after of many nations, and came to faith while he was still a “gentile”. Romans 4 and Galatians 3 teach that all those who are of faith are children of Abraham. The author of Acts speaks of the Church (called-out assembly, ekklesia) in the wilderness (Acts 7:38).

God has always had a plan for one people, and that plan was revealed in the Old Testament and fulfilled perfectly in the New. (cf. Psalm 22:27,28; Isa. 42:1-9; 49:5,6,22,23; Zech. 2:11).

114 posted on 10/08/2008 1:09:03 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Lee N. Field
That's an automatic forfeit, isn't it?

Desperation preceding surrender.

Looks like I got ~75 posts to catch up on.

Have fun.

115 posted on 10/08/2008 1:10:58 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Just mythoughts; Star Traveler; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy; Gamecock
Israel was given specific duties.... Christ gave opportunity to ALL to be party to salvation but did NOT dismiss the duties already assigned to Israel... meaning literally the TEN tribes which Christ made note of in His first instruction to the disciples in Matthew 10:5-6.

"Do not go into the way of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 10:6)

Is it your contention that when Jesus says "Israel" He was specifically excluding from outreach an members of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin?

Sadly most modern Christians have NO clue who those of Israel literally are....

OK, so assume we are looking for biblical answers. What do you have to offer?

there were and are two houses that it is written that it will be Christ Himself that will rejoin and He was NOT talking about a piece of real estate that in modern times got called Israel. Remember that ‘civil’ war wherein the two houses were split and the Northern kingdom called ten tribe/Israel were sent into captivity to the Assyrian king and then the House of Judah with Benjamin were sent to the king of Babylon????

Doesn't the word have multiple meanings in the Bible? Yes, it can refer to just the so-called "ten northern tribes". But it also has another meanings. (cf. Acts 7:42; Heb. 8:10 (contrast with v. 8)).

Where was "Israel" at the time of Christ? Are you saying that when Jesus and his disciples used the word "Israel" (gr, israel) to refer to the nation in the 1st century living in the plot of land in the Middle East, they were mistaken also?

116 posted on 10/08/2008 1:29:48 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: topcat54
Oh, and don’t forget to pick up your prophecy chart so you too can know what’s next.

You know, collecting end times trash 'n trinkets might be an interesting hobby. I keep seeing these B grade end of the world flicks in the 2 denarius bin at Walmart.....

117 posted on 10/08/2008 1:57:50 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (What part of "and I will raise him up on the _last_ day" is hard to understand?)
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To: Star Traveler; mlocher; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; Just mythoughts
Thanks for making that point and perhaps it will take people away from trying to make a big issue on “when” a teaching became known to the public and rather — into the authoritative word of God (instead).

All orthodox Christians agree that at Christ’s return, all the saints are resurrected and receive their glorified bodies. Those who are living at the time are “changed” and go into the glorified state without tasting physical death. Those who are alive will not precede those who have died in this transaction. All orthodox Christians also teach a resurrection of the unrighteous followed by their entry into eternal torment.

He ascended into heaven
    and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
    whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in …
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting.

What all orthodox Christians do not agree upon is the notion that the resurrection of the just and the unjust is separated by a period of time, whether it be 1000 years or 1007 years, or ??? Or, for that matter, whether there is a separation in time between the resurrection of one group of believers and another group.

In order to justify the second scenario, a whole lot of speculative ideas have to be read into 2 verses of the Bible, namely 1 Thess. 4:16,17. You have to believe (impose upon the text) that because Paul only mentions believers that he intended to place a chronological gap between the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Or, because Paul uses the phrase “to meet the Lord in the air” that somehow that means that Jesus turns the boat around and we all hightail it back to “heaven” to sit out the “great tribulation”. And because of this convoluted theology you have to assert that the “trumpet” of 1 Thess. 4 is different from the “last trumpet” of 1 Cor. 15. Or that the “last trumpet” of 1 Cor. 15 is really not the “last trumpet” because they are plainly other “last trumpets” in the book of Revelation (which supposedly all happens after the “rapture”, according to the popular theory).

So if you look a the two scenarios, and compare them to the Bible, the orthodox version which claims one resurrection of both the just and unjust and one general judgment of all men, and the second, with multiple coming, multiple appearances, multiple resurrections, multiple judgments, etc., you can understand why this second scenario has been rejected by the majority of Christians since its development in 1830.

Most of us have had enough time to study it over the last 170 years and found it does not, in fact, fit with all we read in the Bible.

118 posted on 10/08/2008 2:05:39 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Iscool
The Rapture is a resurrection...Surely you've read about resurrections in the bible...

The rapture of the church is coincident with the resurrection. "And I will raise him up on the last day."

They go up and head towards and beyond the NORTH star..
Cite, please. And suppose there isn't one when this happens. The pole precesses over time, you know.
119 posted on 10/08/2008 2:07:30 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (What part of "and I will raise him up on the _last_ day" is hard to understand?)
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To: Lee N. Field
You know, collecting end times trash 'n trinkets might be an interesting hobby. I keep seeing these B grade end of the world flicks in the 2 denarius bin at Walmart.....

Hah! I keep threatening my boys that if they ever cross me bad I'm going to rent every last Left Behind-type movie from the video store and make them watch them until their eyeballs bleed.

120 posted on 10/08/2008 2:09:08 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Lee N. Field; Iscool
Cite, please. And suppose there isn't one when this happens. The pole precesses over time, you know.

Exactly. In another 11,000 years the "North Pole" star will be Vega.

121 posted on 10/08/2008 2:13:54 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: mlocher

Awesome, I have a question for you. Did the earliest church know that they were called to die for the Messiah? When we become Christians, are we not supposed to take up the cross? Is that not a foundational principle of the true church?


122 posted on 10/08/2008 3:38:32 PM PDT by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: Star Traveler

I have a question for you. What does it mean in Revelation 20 where those who died DURING the tribulation took part in the FIRST resurrection. Please read the whole chapter, because if the resurrection mentioned in Thessalonians is the first resurrection (preceding the rapture of the saints),then this resurrection of the dead when Jesus comes back at the end of the tribulation is NOT the FIRST resurrection as is stated twice. I know it is confusing, but I believe Thessalonians refers to the end of the world and the last battle.

Those who are beheaded during the tribulation are the first to rise from the dead at the ONLY return of the King of Kings, at the end of the tribulation as is stated in Rev. 20. Its best to read books as a whole.


123 posted on 10/08/2008 3:48:40 PM PDT by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: the_devils_advocate_666

I love it! I am studying art and want to do graphic design. I also LOVE WEST VIRGINIA! What a beautiful place. Are the people as wonderful as the land?

By the way—666 is “MAN’S NUMBER”.


124 posted on 10/08/2008 3:55:28 PM PDT by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: Alex Murphy

The end is near!

Women and minorities hardest hit!


125 posted on 10/08/2008 3:57:44 PM PDT by airborne (Don't pray that God is on your side. Instead, pray that you are on God's side!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Well, these ARE the end times. We just don’t yet know the hour or the time of His coming.


126 posted on 10/08/2008 4:19:07 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: mnehrling

It couldn’t happen until the Jews came back to Israel, and this happened in 1948.


127 posted on 10/08/2008 4:19:50 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Kirkwood

There will be life after the rapture. Many people will even then come to know the Lord and be saved. Babies, in my opinion, are innocent and will be saved just like they are now. As they grow older, they will make their own decisions.


128 posted on 10/08/2008 4:21:11 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Just mythoughts

The word Rapture isn’t in the Bible. It talks about a taking away, which is the same thing.


129 posted on 10/08/2008 4:21:51 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: mlocher

It’s not called the rapture in the Bible. That’s a fairly new word to describe it. It’s called taking away in one scripture.


130 posted on 10/08/2008 4:23:05 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: mnehrling

Thank you for the explanation. I didn’t know that.


131 posted on 10/08/2008 4:24:50 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Alex Murphy
thousands of Muslim civilians have died in the American-led invasion of Iraq

I like this part! Hiliarious! Doesn't say who these "thousands of Muslim 'civilians' (yeah right!)" are. How about . . . . radical extremist Muslim terrorists???!!!!

132 posted on 10/08/2008 4:25:16 PM PDT by jeffc (They're coming to take me away! Ha-ha, he-he, ho-ho!)
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To: huldah1776
Awesome, I have a question for you. Did the earliest church know that they were called to die for the Messiah? When we become Christians, are we not supposed to take up the cross? Is that not a foundational principle of the true church?

I do not know about the earliest church, but there were some martyrs living in the first century AD who were not willing to give up their faith when they faced death. The inside frieze of St. Peter's Basillica lists the names of such martyrs. Most probably died at Nero's Circus; the Colliseum had not been built when the very earliest martyrs died. It was not until the very end of the first century AD, under the reign of Dalmatian that some MAY have been crucified in the Colliseum.

The Bible was not collated and accepted as the Word of God until the third century AD. It was not a single agreed upon book until Emperor Constantine made the east and west wings of the church come up with one canon. (Previously they differed by 2 books). Therefore, the earliest church did not have the Bible routinely available as it is today, although there were thousands of letters written by the various bishops.

The earliest Christians were from the low ends of society throughout the Roman Empire. Christians formed a social net by helping out people and in the process converted many low income pagans to Christianity. (Except for Caligula, Nero and Dalmatian, the Emperors of the the first two centuries of Rome were supportive of Christianity. They provided a social net, were good soldiers, paid their taxes, etc., etc., etc.) The fundamental question for these new converts was, "Do you believe that Jesus Christ died to take away your sins?" If they answered yes, then the reply was, "Welcome Aboard!" Christianity was very inclusive in its infancy!

It was not until the second through fourth century AD that the true nature of Jesus and God was fully understood. Many of the heresies of the first five centuries of Christianity had to do with Christ's nature. (Prophet? Separate God? Triune God? Equal to Father? Subservient to Father?) And of course, it was not until much later that the East and West churches split over the filoloque dispute. Filo means son and the issue was whether or not the Holy Spirit descended from just the Father, or from the Father and the Son.

Are we supposed to take up Jesus Cross? Yes! Absolutely! Will new converts understand this? Probably not. Mankind did not understand Christianity for at least 400 years (and still does not fully understand it, I might add). To expect a new convert to be able to "get it" all at once is a bit much to expect. We all have our own pace of learning and our own spiritual growth patterns. Understanding Christ takes a life time and then some. Nonetheless, it is always great to say, "Welcome Aboard" to a fellow confessor.

Have a great day!

133 posted on 10/08/2008 4:26:18 PM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: Salamander

Oh, gee. That’s a GREAT reason not to go to church. Sarc.


134 posted on 10/08/2008 4:27:54 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary
It’s not called the rapture in the Bible. That’s a fairly new word to describe it. It’s called taking away in one scripture.

Somebody told me that the original Greek word translates into a Latin word that we derive the word "rapture" from. Thanks for the note!

135 posted on 10/08/2008 4:28:01 PM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: Star Traveler

Thank you!


136 posted on 10/08/2008 4:32:41 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary
It couldn’t happen until the Jews came back to Israel, and this happened in 1948.

Actually, it first happened in 68AD, about when Revelation was written. Then all the armies of Rome came to take down the attempted independence of Israel. The final battle was on the field of Meggido (Armageddon) where, at Masada, the mountain overlooking Meggido, the Jewish rebellion was ended.

137 posted on 10/08/2008 4:37:48 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: mlocher

See #16


138 posted on 10/08/2008 4:38:38 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: Just mythoughts

Depends on when you believe we’ll be zapped. I think Christians WILL go through much of the tribulation. I’m not a pretrib believer, but a pre-wrath believer. We will NOT go through the wrath of God, but we may go through the wrath of anti-christ.


139 posted on 10/08/2008 4:39:21 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: SupplySider

No, it’s not egotism. We’re watching the signs of the times and reading prophecy which SEEMS to indicate to us that the end times are here or near.


140 posted on 10/08/2008 4:40:22 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: XeniaSt

I believe it WILL be the shofar, a truly anointed ‘instrument’.


141 posted on 10/08/2008 4:43:31 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Cloverfarm

Amen, Cloverfarm.


142 posted on 10/08/2008 4:49:32 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Just mythoughts

And the mark is already in process of being created and used on people and animals. It’s interesting, even if a bit scary, to read about it and know it’s happening even now.


143 posted on 10/08/2008 4:53:21 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: mlocher

Yes, I read that too. Good to know.


144 posted on 10/08/2008 4:58:06 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: mnehrling
mnehrling,

My humble apologies for not giving you the proper credit. You knew where the word rapture came from: a Latin word (rapere) translated from the Greed language that the letter was written.

145 posted on 10/08/2008 5:19:30 PM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: mlocher

I don’t deserve any credit, it is all over the place, just wanted to save you the search. :->


146 posted on 10/08/2008 5:24:30 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: mnehrling
I don’t deserve any credit, it is all over the place, just wanted to save you the search. :->

Thanks nonetheless. God bless you!

147 posted on 10/08/2008 5:26:00 PM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: mnehrling

Well, dear mnehrling, it’s about to happen again, LOL.


148 posted on 10/08/2008 5:43:15 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: topcat54
"Do not go into the way of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matt. 10:6) Is it your contention that when Jesus says "Israel" He was specifically excluding from outreach an members of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin?

The disciples were of Judah and then Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11:1 Paul tells specifically that he is an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin. One would then need to go to Genesis to learn about Benjamin and what his generations were promised. Genesis 49: lists these 12 and each one is given their inheritance from Jacob/Israel. Interesting reading about what would be for each of these tribes.

Christ knew very well what he was saying when he told these disciples to go but to the 'lost' sheep of the House of Israel, and if one follows the footsteps of Christianity one can also see where those ten tribes ended up. We are told that the 'truth' will set you free and so it is that Christianity represents freedom and who are the free nations of this globe.

It is a sign of the times wherein even those free peoples start dabbling in systems of bondage wherein the state becomes the all knowing all powerful god.

OK, so assume we are looking for biblical answers. What do you have to offer?

The promises given to Abraham and where they have become fulfilled. There were requirements given to receive the blessings and there are the curses given IF the peoples turned their backs. Can be at the individual level or a national level. Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses.... (remember how important Moses was even to Christ as he with Elijah was shown upon that mount of transfiguration?) "Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whiter they go to be among them, and will forsake Me, and break My covenant which I have made with them.

17 Then My anger shall be kindled against them in *that day*, and I will forsake them, and I will hid My face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; (ever read about Jacob's trouble? Jeremiah 30 whole chapter as both houses are addressed and specifically in verse 7 Alas! for *that day* is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; *BUT HE SHALL BE SAVED OUT OF IT. Note that word saved... salvation... meaning Christians.) back to Deuteronomy 31:17 'Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?' I have heard preachers of various denominations utter these very words.

18 And I will surely hide My face in *that day* for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for Me against the children of Israel.

20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and thy shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke Me, and break My covenant.

21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, before I have brought them into the land which I sware."

Point of quoting this is what Paul says in I Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples (examples): and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

The script has been written as is what Christ meant when He said I have foretold you all things. Solomon put it like this in Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

We have the script of what will be, recorded as what already has been and the rapture doctrine is not in the script as to what followers of Christ are to expect to occur.

149 posted on 10/08/2008 6:24:45 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Alex Murphy

FOr later read.


150 posted on 10/08/2008 6:24:53 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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