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Apocalypse soon
SignOnSanDiego ^ | October 4, 2008 | Sandi Dolbee

Posted on 10/07/2008 8:41:53 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

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To: mnehrling; mlocher
No, I don’t buy into the comic book version, but the term and concept is taken from the Bible.

You mean with people disappearing and leaving behind a rumpled pile of clothing, and folks looking around wondering what happened to Cousin Agnes? And a bunch of pagan folks going on to live their lives like in the Left Behind pulp fiction series?

When most folks today here the word "rapture" they have been conditioned to think of the pre-tribulational "secret rapture" invented by JN Darby and CI Scofield, and popularized by John Walvoord, Chuck Smith, and Hal Lindsey and a host of others.

True comic book stuff.

51 posted on 10/08/2008 6:48:20 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy
Note the subtle shift in emphasis. I suppose this starts the "this generation" clock over again.

When one doesn't know what one is talking about, it helps to have a sliding timeline.

"From my understanding of biblical prophesies, I'm convinced that the Lord is coming for His Church before the end of 1981." (Chuck Smith, Future Survival)

52 posted on 10/08/2008 6:53:46 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Star Traveler
Well, you must be reading the wrong Bible, then — because mine does...

Thanks for the response. My Bible certainly has these versus in them. They refer to the fact that those that have died prior to Christ's second coming will still share in the joy of His death and be united with those who are still alive.

Nonetheless, thanks for the Bible passages; I always wondered which versus were used to justify the rapture. Now I know. God Bless you.

53 posted on 10/08/2008 7:02:27 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: topcat54

When one doesn’t know what one is talking about, it helps to have a sliding timeline.


Or, to have camped on a stinking pile of Scripture mangling replacementarian post/a millenial stubborn ignorance.


54 posted on 10/08/2008 7:02:38 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: topcat54
When most folks today here the word "rapture" they have been conditioned to think of the pre-tribulational "secret rapture" invented by JN Darby and CI Scofield, and popularized by John Walvoord, Chuck Smith, and Hal Lindsey and a host of others.

Thanks. It was Darby whose name I was struggling to remember. I think he lived in England in the 1800s when he interpreted certain Bible passages to define the rapture.

55 posted on 10/08/2008 7:05:13 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: Alex Murphy
He reached out to other biblical prophecy scholars for their thoughts. Among them was Tim LaHaye,

Not too sensational.

“I would be the last person in the world to try to draw sensationalist truths from the Scripture,” he adds.

When they stop holding sensational prophecy conferences and writing sensational books, then I’ll believe them.

The 67-year-old senior pastor of Shadow Mountain Community Church in El Cajon, where he preaches to 7,000 people at weekend services, says he was motivated to write this book after so many people kept questioning him about world events.

The blind leading the blind.

Oh, and don’t forget to pick up your prophecy chart so you too can know what’s next.

56 posted on 10/08/2008 7:08:23 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Just mythoughts
Christ said "I have foretold you all things", after years and years of searching through scripture I still yet cannot find Him saying ONE word RAPTURE or anything about the mythical ideology of RAPTURE.

Sure you have...If you've read the bible as you say, you've seen it...But believing it's another thing, eh???

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Rapture is a resurrection...Surely you've read about resurrections in the bible...

Anything in those verses you may have missed in the past???

and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You notice that live people go UP??? They go up and head towards and beyond the NORTH star...There's a lot more detail in the scriptures than many people realize...

Did you also notice that these live people that go up are with the Lord from that moment on??? Know what that means??? No Judgement...No condemnation...

That's a resurrection...That's a Rapture...And you know what else that means??? That means there are no un-saved folks going up...Non Christians will not be 'ever with the Lord'...That's strictly a Christian event...

And if only Christians go up, that leaves a tremendous amount of people on the earth...And they of course, are alive...They are LEFT BEHIND...

57 posted on 10/08/2008 7:16:49 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Star Traveler
As a side note, our English translation of the Bible (the one you and I read) has only been around for about 400 years — while the Latin version of the Bible has been around for over a thousand (and more) years. It’s the Latin version that contains the word “rapture” (in the Bible). We’ve just taken the Latin word and carried it over into English and cleaned up the pronunciation a bit for our English ears. So, actually the word “rapture” — is — in the Bible. You just have to be reading the Latin Bible and not the English Bible. AND, one more thing, before you demand it be in the “English” Bible. The Bible was not originally written in English...

What languages did Paul speak? Through Paul the majority of the New Testament came to us, and I have yet to find it to have been in Latin let alone English. You did say it was what only over a thousand years ago the Bible got its Latin translation? Paul of all the New Testament writers knew the Hebrew and what Christ was referencing when He stated I have foretold you all things.

It was John that explained what that ALL included in John 1:1 In the beginning (now we have a book in the Bible that means just that Genesis) *WAS* the Word, and the Word WAS with God, and the Word WAS God.

So in the ORIGINAL languages the word rapture is NOT used, however, there is a place in Ezekiel wherein the Heavenly Father sure did know well in advance what His dear little children would be promoting.

Ezekiel 13: The whole chapter but specifically starting in verse 17

Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; WOE to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchief upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of MY People, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

19 AND will ye pollute ME among My People for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My People that hear your lies?

NOW what is the false prophecy.... the lies that are pass out for handfuls of barley and pieces of bread... you know pass that plate religions.

20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against our pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them FLY, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make the FLY.

21 Your kerchief also will I tear, and deliver My People out of your hand, and they shall no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My People out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.''"

There is what the Heavenly Father had Ezekiel pen long before Paul wrote that couple of scriptures now used as doctrine as escape vehicle for those that can't fathom having to do as Paul said would need be done in Ephesians 6:10-24 11.. Put on the *WHOLE* armour of God,

that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Paul did not say some Satan incarnate he said the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Now if all the 'good' believers are going to get zapped out of here why would Paul tell what is require to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand???????

58 posted on 10/08/2008 7:20:52 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: mlocher
Thanks. It was Darby whose name I was struggling to remember. I think he lived in England in the 1800s when he interpreted certain Bible passages to define the rapture.

Depending on which version of the story you wish to believe, John Nelson Darby either plagiarized or invented the pre-trib rapture theory that is the mainstay of most independent/fundamentalist/non-confessional churches. One version of history has the notion coming from the ecstatic utterances of a young Scottish girl, Margaret McDonald. And as the story goes, Darby picked up and capitalized on the idea in his founding of the Plymouth Brethren.

In either case, the theory did not exist in Christian theology until the 1830s when it took root in one part of England.

59 posted on 10/08/2008 7:25:24 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Alex Murphy

I think the idea that the end is near is egotism. The end of the world could happen any time over the span of trillions and trillions of years. But it’s going to happen on my watch!


60 posted on 10/08/2008 7:28:02 AM PDT by SupplySider
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To: topcat54

Thanks!


61 posted on 10/08/2008 7:28:07 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: Iscool; Just mythoughts
You notice that live people go UP??? They go up and head towards and beyond the NORTH star...There's a lot more detail in the scriptures than many people realize...

There is nothing about the North Star or any specific compass heading in those verses. (Which way do they head if they are on the opposite side of the globe?) Like so much associated with this secret rapture theory, you have to read a whole lot into the verse that is not there. Exegesis by imagination.

This is precisely why it is hard to take these theories seriously from a biblical standpoint.

62 posted on 10/08/2008 7:31:14 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Just mythoughts
Yup we have the Lord descending..... at a "trump" the last one as there are seven.

It doesn't say trumpet...It says trump...Trump is the sound a trumpet makes...This is NOT one of the seven trumpets in Revelation...

Yup we have the Lord descending..... at a "trump" the last one as there are seven. Now the 'dead' will rise first as that is what happens when flesh dies the 'soul' returns to the Maker that sent it.

It's not talking about the soul...It's talking about the graves...The graves being opened and dead BODIES being raised...Just as Jesus' dead body was raised...

And then it speaks about these bodies (dead and alive) being changed...Just as Jesus' body was changed...

63 posted on 10/08/2008 7:31:19 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: RockinRight
WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!

Center it. Font size must be 7. Bold. Four exclamation points.

I give this a 6.9

64 posted on 10/08/2008 7:33:41 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Secondhand Aztlan Smoke causes drug addiction obesity in global warming cancer immigrant terrorists.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit smoking!


65 posted on 10/08/2008 7:38:10 AM PDT by McGruff (Sarah. We crave red meat. Red meat!)
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To: Just mythoughts
I quoted you what Paul said and Paul even went the extra effort in IIThessalonians 1 to reiterate what he said in IThessalonians regarding our gathering together unto Him.

Two different events...As you know the first one says we will meet the Lord in the air and ever be with the Lord...Now look at this one...

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

There aren't any Christians meeting the Lord in the air here...The Lord shows up with His army and He's killing people left and right...These are the people that got LEFT BEHIND at the Rapture...

You can't make both of these events the same even if you stood on your head and twirled pencils with your toes...

66 posted on 10/08/2008 7:46:49 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Iscool
It doesn't say trumpet...It says trump...Trump is the sound a trumpet makes...This is NOT one of the seven trumpets in Revelation...

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.... make that noise or trump. And here Paul writes in I Thessalonians For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:... are you saying there are more than seven trumpets making that sound??? The seventh trumpet sounding is the trump that describes the return of Christ and here Paul's subject is the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven.

How is it that the Savior's descent gets ignored and a doctrine of air got its inception?

67 posted on 10/08/2008 7:48:14 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Now if all the 'good' believers are going to get zapped out of here why would Paul tell what is require to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand???????

When is the evil day???

68 posted on 10/08/2008 7:55:37 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Kirkwood
Great question! No one knows the answer except for God.

I can say that He is just. Babies are pure and full of God. There is an age (different for us all), when we know difference between God/Satan, good/evil.

take a look at this... matthew 24:

19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

69 posted on 10/08/2008 7:56:33 AM PDT by Battle Hymn of the Republic
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To: topcat54
There is nothing about the North Star or any specific compass heading in those verses. (Which way do they head if they are on the opposite side of the globe?)

We can clearly see that, can't we...There's about 33,000 other verses in the bible...Maybe one of those has some correlating information???

70 posted on 10/08/2008 7:58:58 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Iscool
We can clearly see that, can't we...There's about 33,000 other verses in the bible...Maybe one of those has some correlating information???

I'm sure if there were you would be quick to provide the info.

71 posted on 10/08/2008 8:06:48 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Iscool
It doesn't say trumpet...It says trump...Trump is the sound a trumpet makes...This is NOT one of the seven trumpets in Revelation...

Once again an English translation of the Greek NT gets the best of the argument.

There is but one Greek word translated "trump" and "trumpet" in the KJV NT ( savlpigx). Any distinction, such as the one above, based on the KJV rendering is arbitrary and unsupported by the Greek text.

In fact, the NJKV corrects the language of the older version by replacing all the "trumps" with "trumpet"

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thess. 4:16)

Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15 that believers rise “at the last trumpet” on the last day which corresponds to the “trumpet” in 1 Thess. 4:16.

Besides, in virtually all the cases where the word is used in the NT, it is not the instrument that is in focus but the sound the instrument is making. So trying to make some distinction between the sound and the instrument is theologically unnecessary.

72 posted on 10/08/2008 8:22:15 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Iscool
Two different events...As you know the first one says we will meet the Lord in the air and ever be with the Lord...Now look at this one... 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; There aren't any Christians meeting the Lord in the air here...The Lord shows up with His army and He's killing people left and right...These are the people that got LEFT BEHIND at the Rapture... You can't make both of these events the same even if you stood on your head and twirled pencils with your toes...

Whoa, The Lord shows up with His army and He's killing people left and right....

Paul says (Ephesians 6) this 'war' is NOT against flesh and blood, why because at that 'day' the Lord's day alllllllllllll flesh will be changed, and Paul also says in ICorinthians 15:51-51 that allllll will not sleep (flesh dying) but ALLLLLL would be changed. So what kind of killing do you think is going to be going on?

Who do you think makes up the Lord's army? Your doctrine makes you sound like pacifists getting front row seats while somebody else does the dirty work.

73 posted on 10/08/2008 8:28:42 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Iscool
When is the evil day???

The day when the majority of this world believes that the devil is actually Jesus, because of deception. What did the devil offer Jesus in that temptation, well the devil is going to be allowed to offer the same to us still dwelling in flesh bodies and as Christ Himself said all but the elect will follow after him. Christ did not say after I remove my Church the devil will be allowed his final stage performance pretending to be Jesus coming to 'save'.

74 posted on 10/08/2008 8:34:00 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: topcat54; Iscool

Iscool>It doesn't say trumpet...It says trump...Trump is the sound a trumpet makes...This is NOT one of the seven trumpets in Revelation...

Once again an English translation of the Greek NT gets the best of the argument.

There is but one Greek word translated "trump" and "trumpet" in the KJV NT ( savlpigx). Any distinction, such as the one above, based on the KJV rendering is arbitrary and unsupported by the Greek text.

In fact, the NJKV corrects the language of the older version by replacing all the "trumps" with "trumpet"

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thess. 4:16)

Paul tells us in 1 Cor. 15 that believers rise “at the last trumpet” on the last day which corresponds to the “trumpet” in 1 Thess. 4:16.

Besides, in virtually all the cases where the word is used in the NT, it is not the instrument that is in focus but the sound the instrument is making. So trying to make some distinction between the sound and the instrument is theologically unnecessary.

72 posted on October 8, 2008 9:22:15 AM MDT by topcat54

You are correct They are all the GSN - 4536.

Review Leviticus 25:9 where it(GSN - 4538) is used in the LXX as a replacement for the word shofer HSN - 7782.

NAsbU Leviticus 25:9 'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day
of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land.
So the trump( 1 Thess. 4:16) that Paul is speaking of just might be a shofer on the day of atonment.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
75 posted on 10/08/2008 9:49:59 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: LukeL
Seamless version...


76 posted on 10/08/2008 9:55:31 AM PDT by the_devils_advocate_666
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To: topcat54; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; mlocher; Just mythoughts; Quix; Mr. Mojo; RockinRight; svcw; ...

You said — “In either case, the theory did not exist in Christian theology until the 1830s when it took root in one part of England.”

In reference to the “idea” (being presented here and elsewhere) that the teaching (and/or preaching) about the so-called “rapture” (or “taking up”) is something that has not been taught before in history, prior to the time that you mentioned (around the 1800s) — there are written historical comments going back centuries that do mention the teaching.

The Catholic Church, which held sway for many centuries over teachings from the Bible (overwhelmingly) did not teach this and would actually persecute and/or kill anyone who taught different from their own doctrines (if they wouldn’t repent). So, it’s definitely not in the mainstream of Catholic teaching and they did hold a *major* position over the centuries, until just recently.

It’s been because it’s only recently (last few hundred years) that Protestants have been able to develop doctrines that proceed *out of the Bible* instead of “out of the traditions of the Catholic Church”. And that’s why you’ll find many recent teachings and developments from Protestants over the last few hundred years.

I mean..., the Catholic Church was persecuting those who tried to translate the Bible into the local languages (and English). And there are still (remaining today) many “anathemas” against Protestants, which are considered still binding (even if not mentioned as much these days), as they are infallible pronouncements from the Catholic Church.

Thus, there *are* documents from ancient history and church teachers/leaders/pastors/priests (whatever fits that category they were in) that show the teaching of the Rapture.

Mind you, there is a huge amount of documentation that has never been translated and/or has never seen the “light of day”. Since the search has gone on to find these documents (about these teachings from history), they have been found. I’m sure more will be found as scholars pore over the ancient documents from many church writers.

Here is a short article outlining three of them, which have been found...

“Yet, Another Pre-Darby Rapture Statement”
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=76

And this one is a sample of one of those documents...

“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World (English)”
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=169

AND, in looking up the verses in 1 Thessalonians, Chapter 4, verses 13-18

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

... here we see that the words “caught up” — which (when looking in the Strong’s Concordance) comes up with the following...

KJV using Strong’s

From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

That’s what is happening to those who are still “alive” at that time — they are “caught up” [or “pluck, pull, take (by force)”]...

And “together” all are with the Lord from then on... (that is..., together with those who were just taken up “out of the grave” — the ones who are “alive” [at the time] are “taking up” with them [who were just raised out of the grave]).

This is a pretty clear picture of the “Rapture”...

And, the word Rapture is a transliteration of the Latin word for this very same word that I’m referencing in Strong’s (the one that means “pluck, pull, or take [by force]). Since the Catholic Church held sway for many centuries and wouldn’t allow any other translations to come into existence (at the time they had the power to prevent it from happening), the “Bible” they used was the Latin Bible. And this word, in the Latin Vulgate (Jerome’s Vulgate), is — “rapiemur”.

Now, we’ve got the word “Rapture” which comes from that Latin version. However, the meaning is there in our English Bible (and in looking at the Strong’s Number Reference) — as “taken up”.

So, if anyone feels better using the words — “taken up” — that’s fine, too — as that is there in the English and it has the meanings (as we see in Strong’s) — to “pluck, pull, take (by force)”.

That should clear up a lot for everyone, I hope.

If one doesn’t like the use the word “Rapture” — simply substitute the words “taken up” and you will find that in the English...


77 posted on 10/08/2008 10:13:44 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: XeniaSt; Iscool
So the trump( 1 Thess. 4:16) that Paul is speaking of just might be a shofer on the day of atonment.

No evidence that Paul had this image specifically in view when he wrote to the Church of predominately former gentiles at Thessalonica (Acts 17:4). It was also used as a general announcement of one of seeming importance (cf. Matt. 6:2).

But I think it’s more likely that it is a reference to the trumpet sounds of Exodus 20:18 where the LXX utilizes the same Greek word to indicate the presence of God to the people.

Would it be your contention that the angels will be utilizing instruments constructed from parts of animal carcasses?

78 posted on 10/08/2008 10:15:02 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Star Traveler

GREAT HISTORICALLY AND BIBLICALLY ACCURATE POINTS.

THANKS.

Much appreciated.

Of course, those without eyes to see or ears to hear will maintain their death grip on

their stinking pile of

UNBiblical assumptions, fantasies, rationalizations, extrapolations and the like . . .


79 posted on 10/08/2008 10:18:20 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Star Traveler

How do you know some Souls might reside in the heavens (New) while new bodies in Christ will reside on the New earth?


80 posted on 10/08/2008 10:19:40 AM PDT by TaraP (A Big Black Horse and a Cherry Tree)
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To: Just mythoughts

I’ll just reply to this last paragraph. You can see some more comments of mine in Post #77.

You said — “Now if all the ‘good’ believers are going to get zapped out of here why would Paul tell what is require to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand???????”

Of course the Bible is written for all believers, in all ages, in all locations, and many of those believers are dead, while many others haven’t been born yet. The Bible is for all.

As a result, there are going to be believers who will be here and alive “at that time” that the Apostle Paul talks about — even with all the believers (and the dead in Christ) being “taken up” at the time Paul speaks of in Thessalonians.

Those believers who will be here, and who can heed Pauls words (at that time) will be the ones who will accept Christ during that time of the Great Tribulation. These are words for them, the ones who are here.

They did not accept Christ at the time of the “big taking up” , but did so later.

Remember, in Revelation we see that there is an angel sent out to give the everlasting Gospel to the entire world, to all peoples, nations, tribes and languages. This will result in many people being saved at that time, not to say anything about the 144,000 from the 12 tribes (listed in Revelation, tribe by tribe), who will be also proclaiming the Word of God at that time, around the world.


81 posted on 10/08/2008 10:23:22 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; mlocher; Just mythoughts
In reference to the “idea” (being presented here and elsewhere) that the teaching (and/or preaching) about the so-called “rapture” (or “taking up”) is something that has not been taught before in history, prior to the time that you mentioned (around the 1800s) — there are written historical comments going back centuries that do mention the teaching.

Here is a short article outlining three of them, which have been found...

There are none. I realized Tommy Ice and the Pre-Trib Research Center have been running around for decades misquoting ancient text to support his beliefs, but that fact is that none of these pre-Darby authors are teaching a pre-trib rapture. His theories have been debunked in several places.

The Catholic Church, which held sway for many centuries over teachings from the Bible (overwhelmingly) did not teach this and would actually persecute and/or kill anyone who taught different from their own doctrines (if they wouldn’t repent). So, it’s definitely not in the mainstream of Catholic teaching and they did hold a *major* position over the centuries, until just recently.

There were many generations of Protestants before and after Darby who had no notion of a secret pre-trib rapture of the Church. There were centuries of early Church fathers, unfettered by the medieval Roman Catholic hierarchy, that had no notion of a pre-trib rapture.

What pre-tribbers call the rapture is really just the Second Coming from the Christians’ vantage point.

82 posted on 10/08/2008 10:26:27 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Star Traveler
Thanks for the post. You are correct in stating that the Catholic Church has had many questionable teachings that were influenced more by Canonical Law than by the Bible. Martin Luther clearly paved the way to ensure that others could read the Bible directly and come to their own conclusions. Luther himself, however, warned people about those who taught without the appropriate credentials because they could easily lead people astray.

Regarding the rapture, the Bible passages you quote also have an interpretation other than the one you propose. Succinctly, those that are dead at the time of Christ's second coming will join those who are still alive and share in the blessing of eternal life.

I do thank you for the applicable Bible versus. I am teaching a Bible class on the End Times and some of my students wanted to know how the rapture has been justified.

83 posted on 10/08/2008 10:28:27 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: topcat54
Or

NAU Exodus 19:16 So it came about on the third day,
when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a
thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all
the people who were in the camp trembled.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

84 posted on 10/08/2008 10:30:25 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: Star Traveler; Just mythoughts
This will result in many people being saved at that time, not to say anything about the 144,000 from the 12 tribes (listed in Revelation, tribe by tribe), who will be also proclaiming the Word of God at that time, around the world.

Interesting theory, but there is nothing at all in the Bible to indicate the activity of these one hundred and forty four thousand. Any suggestion as to what (if anything) these folks are doing is pure fiction.

Which again goes to show how much of the pre-trib futurist scenario is built on a fictional rendering of the Biblical texts.

85 posted on 10/08/2008 10:31:34 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: XeniaSt

Exactly.

Recall from Hebrews that Moses constructed the religious worship of Israel from all he had seen on the mountain (Heb. 8:4,5). He was given a glimpse into heaven. From that glimpse he constructed a worship pattern that was intended to point the people of the older covenant to the Messiah who was to come.

The holy days and all their rituals and instruments were merely types of the person and work of Jesus Christ. In them they would see their need for redemption and the Messiah who would accomplish that redemption for His people. When the Messiah would come they would be able to recognize Him because of all that had witnessed in the old covenant typology.

Of course once He had appeared and accomplished our salvation, a return to old covenant rituals was no longer necessary or desirable. That is why we are told that the old covenant was decaying and about to fade away even in the 1st century (Heb. 8:13). The last vestiges of that (temporary) old covenant were brought to an end when the temple in earthly Jerusalem was destroyed once for all time in AD70. We now worship in the new Jerusalem in Spirit and truth, not being confined to any geographic location or bound by temporary, cultic rituals.


86 posted on 10/08/2008 10:43:06 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: TaraP; Kirkwood

TaraP asked — “How do you know some Souls might reside in the heavens (New) while new bodies in Christ will reside on the New earth?”

Well, just an overview of some things. We could go really long on this one, because it involves things from different places in the Bible. But, this is an overview of it.

First of all, prior to the time of Christ, the “dead” were in Sheol (the grave), kept in two places (in that location), one for the saved dead and one for the unsaved dead.

At the time of Christ’s death and resurrection, Christ took the souls of the saved dead and brought them with him back to Heaven, where He is now. You’ll also note that Christ told one of the thieves (being crucified at the same time) that he would be with Him (i.e., with Christ) that day (in Paradise), on the basis of the thief’s acceptance of Christ as the Messiah of Israel, the one who was to come and was the salvation of the world.

Now, we have the Apostle Paul who tells us that to be absent from the body (talking to Christians...) is to be present with the Lord. So we know that.

Additionally, we know that at the time of the Rapture, that the “dead in Christ” will be raised up just before the living (”in Christ”, too) are “translated” (in the twinkling of an eye) and are “taken up” to be with Christ forevermore.

And then, we see that all the saints and the host of angels come back with Christ (His “second coming” in glory and power and as the King of King and Lord of Lords) to rule and reign over the world and all the nations of the world, at the time of the Millennium.

During the time of the Tribulation, we see that there are souls (under the throne, if I remember correctly) who are still waiting to be given their redeemed bodies, as they were killed during the Great Tribulation. They will be given their redeemed bodies at the coming of the Lord as King of King and Lord of Lords, to rule and reign at the beginning of His Millennial Kingdom on this earth (and all of us, who have been given our redeemed bodies, at the time of the Rapture, plus the “dead in Christ”) will be returning with Him at that time.

So, at various times, during the “timeline” of history (and of the Church) and during the Tribulation, we see the various souls of mankind in many different places (at those different times).

“In the end” (at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on this earth) — all the souls (except for the unsaved dead) have been resurrected and are in their redeemed bodies and are with Christ, where He is (and He is ruling and reigning on the earth for that 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom). At that particular time, there are no more “saved” souls, still waiting to be redeemed (who are “dead” and without their redeemed bodies).

All that remains at that time are the “unsaved dead” awaiting their resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgement (as seen in Revelation 20).

I hope that gives a good overview and (perhaps) answers the question (don’t know for sure...).


87 posted on 10/08/2008 10:43:35 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: mlocher
My bible says nothing of the rapture.

++

It is another of the words that is not from the Bible, but men have decided explains part of the teachings in the Bible.

88 posted on 10/08/2008 10:46:04 AM PDT by fproy2222
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To: fproy2222
It is another of the words that is not from the Bible, but men have decided explains part of the teachings in the Bible.

Not all men have decided that the rapture explains some of the teachings of the Bible. We will have to agree to disagree. God Bless you!

89 posted on 10/08/2008 10:52:38 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: topcat54; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; mlocher; Just mythoughts; Quix; Mr. Mojo; RockinRight; svcw; ...

You said (in reference to the three documents which show the existence of ancient writings about the Rapture) — “There are none.”

Well, I would say it’s kind of hard to talk about the issue and those three documents that were referenced in the article (plus the English translation that was given for one) — when you say — “There are none.”

You’ve just indicated that even when presented with evidence, you deny it and refuse to acknowledge they even exist.... LOL... (even when it’s printed right here for your perusal).

On that basis, I would say there’s not too much else someone can say to a person who refuses to acknowledge the very documents that have been put in front of their face...


90 posted on 10/08/2008 10:54:03 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler; topcat54; Alex Murphy; mnehrling; mlocher; Just mythoughts; Quix; Mr. Mojo; ...
On that basis, I would say there’s not too much else someone can say to a person who refuses to acknowledge the very documents that have been put in front of their face...

I think a more applicable question would be, "What does the Bible have to say about the rapture?"

91 posted on 10/08/2008 10:57:46 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: Star Traveler

Ahhhhhh

Nice to see that your perceptiveness and discernment are more or less up to speed regarding

the . . . .

seemingly

“Willfully Blind As A Bat School of Theology.”


92 posted on 10/08/2008 10:58:57 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Star Traveler

I don’t think anyone has all the precise sequences 100% figured out.

Seems to me God deliberately fuzzied it.

However, that we are in THAT ERA seems abundantly clear to anyone with 1/100th

of eyes to see and ears to hear.


93 posted on 10/08/2008 11:00:16 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: RockinRight
WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!

That is the only thing for certain.

94 posted on 10/08/2008 11:05:28 AM PDT by NeoCaveman (Who is the real Barack Obama?)
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To: mlocher

Not all men have decided that the rapture explains some of the teachings of the Bible. We will have to agree to disagree. God Bless you!

++

I think we agree, I could have saie it better.


95 posted on 10/08/2008 11:06:24 AM PDT by fproy2222
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To: topcat54; Just mythoughts

topcat54 said — “Interesting theory, but there is nothing at all in the Bible to indicate the activity of these one hundred and forty four thousand. Any suggestion as to what (if anything) these folks are doing is pure fiction.”

They are called servants of God and, “as such” — they *will definitely* be following the commands of Jesus Christ — especially the one that He gave as the primary mission for all who believe and trust in Him — which is to proclaim the Gospel to the whole world and to every person, tribe, nation and peoples.

We can see that this time of the Tribulation, besides being a time of Judgement is also a time of proclaiming the Gospel, too, as the angel is sent out to proclaim it all over the world. You can call that a “general announcement” (if you will), while the “feet on the ground” can be the 144,000 (and have no doubt that they *will* be following Christ’s *primary command* to ones who believe and trust in Him as Savior).

If you don’t know that this is the primary command for those who trust and believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, then you’ve got your priorities wrong. But, I’ll guarantee you that these 144,000 won’t have their priorities wrong — not in “that day”, before the final judgements are given out.

And remember, God doesn’t want any to perish (without Christ) and will give all the opportunity to accept Christ as their Savior. And also remember, that during this time that about 2/3 of the world’s population is “perishing”. God doesn’t desire that this be without Christ as their Savior.


96 posted on 10/08/2008 11:07:22 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: NeoCaveman

True enough.

Another mom at church had a migraine day before yesterday, took her medicine and died in her sleep. Her kids came home from school and found the body.

If something so unexpected happened to one of us, are we ready? Any day could be the last day ...


97 posted on 10/08/2008 11:09:28 AM PDT by Cloverfarm (Children are a blessing ...)
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To: Quix

Well, yeah...

Actually, it’s taken me a very long time to get to this particular point in that understanding as I outlined it (and it was brief and quick covering a lot of material).

So..., is it possible that I could have further understanding (in the coming and remaining time before Christ comes) that would clear it up even further? Yes..., I would say so.

Thanks for your comments..., I appreciate them.


98 posted on 10/08/2008 11:13:18 AM PDT by Star Traveler
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To: Quix
I don’t think anyone has all the precise sequences 100% figured out.

There are some on this thread that pridefully think that they do !

They call their brothers "RACA" for not agreeing with their anti-semitism.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
99 posted on 10/08/2008 11:14:08 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt

Hmmmm

Guess I’ve been scanning too quickly as I do my administrivia for my classes.

At least you know I’m a great champion of Israel and the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[I hope!?]


100 posted on 10/08/2008 11:16:42 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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