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The Protestant Heresy
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protesy.htm ^ | 1940 's | Hilaire Belloc

Posted on 10/14/2008 6:36:15 PM PDT by stfassisi

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Though the immediate fruits of the Reformation decayed, as had those of many other heresies in the past, yet the disruption it had produced remained and the main principle_reaction against a united spiritual authority_so continued in vigour as both to break up our European civilization in the West and to launch at last a general doubt, spreading more and more widely. None of the older heresies did that, for they were each definite. Each had proposed to supplant or to rival the existing Catholic Church; but the Reformation movement proposed rather to dissolve the Catholic Church_and we know what measure success has been attained by that effort!
1 posted on 10/14/2008 6:36:15 PM PDT by stfassisi
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To: AveMaria1; Friar Roderic Mary; fr maximilian mary; Kolokotronis; Carolina; sandyeggo; Salvation; ...
This man was a Frenchman, Jean Cauvin (or Calvin), the son of an ecclesiastical official, steward and lawyer to the See of Noyon. After the excommunication of his father for embezzlement and the confiscation by his Bishop of much of the income which he, Jean Calvin, himself enjoyed, he, John, set to work_and a mighty work it was.

It would be unjust to say that the misfortunes of his family and the bitter private money quarrel between himself and the local hierarchy was the main driving force of Calvin's attack. He was already on the revolutionary side in religion; he would perhaps have been in any case a chief figure among those who were for the destruction of the old religion. But whatever his motive, he was certainly the founder of a new religion. For John Calvin it was who set up a counter-Church.

He proved, if ever any man did, the power of logic_the triumph of reason, even when abused, and the victory of intelligence over mere instinct and feeling. He framed a complete new theology, strict and consistent, wherein there was no room for priesthood or sacraments; he launched an attack not anti-clerical, not of a negative kind, but positive, just as Mohammed had done nine hundred years before. He was a true heresiarch, and though his effect in the actual imposition of dogma has not had a much longer life than that of Arianism yet the spiritual mood he created has lasted on into our day. All that is lively and effective in the Protestant temper still derives from John Calvin.

2 posted on 10/14/2008 6:38:29 PM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi

You know, I would never even consider posting something that demonstrated the decay, demise, and incorrectness of the Catholic Church, because I know that millions of good Americans happen to embrace that faith and that’s their business. But, when I’m subjected to this hateful and insulting anti-protestant filth just by viewing the news threads, I have to say something. I’ll pray for you, I know that you and the writer of this crap are only the product of an indoctrination that doesn’t allow free thought, only the worship of a man-made system rather than G-d. I suggest you read “Windswept House”, by Father Malachi Martin, a Catholic priest. He said that every event he depicts in the book is real, including the Satanic ceremony conducted in the Vatican during which a child was raped on an altar. Remember that, and then you might understand the true source of the pedophile “problem” currently being experienced by the “Church”.


3 posted on 10/14/2008 6:57:34 PM PDT by thatdewd (All that is necessary for the triumph of Evil is that good men do nothing.)
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To: stfassisi

Go back and read Justin the Martyr, Ireanaeus, Athenagoras, Tertullian. Then tell me whether the Catholic Church of 1700 or the Protestants of 1700 were closer to the truth, as written by people who actually knew the 12 Apostles or were schooled in the Christian faith by their closest students.


4 posted on 10/14/2008 7:02:06 PM PDT by ikka
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To: ikka

Go back even further and read how the catholic church adopted pagan rituals from the old empire.


5 posted on 10/14/2008 7:06:56 PM PDT by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: randomhero97

The Protestant Creed: Every Man His Own Pope.


6 posted on 10/14/2008 7:14:24 PM PDT by sobieski
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To: ikka
“”Go back and read Justin the Martyr, Ireanaeus, Athenagoras, Tertullian. Then tell me whether the Catholic Church of 1700 or the Protestants of 1700 were closer to the truth, as written by people who actually knew the 12 Apostles or were schooled in the Christian faith by their closest students””

The heretical protestants denied the real presence of Christ-body,blood soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist.

Every single early church father believed the Eucharist is literally Christ WITHOUT ONE SINGLE EXCEPTION.

Here are some examples

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).

“He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).

“Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. A figure, however, there could not have been, unless there were first a veritable body. An empty thing, or phantom, is incapable of a figure. If, however, (as Marcion might say,) He pretended the bread was His body, because He lacked the truth of bodily substance, it follows that He must have given bread for us. It would contribute very well to the support of Marcion’s theory of a phantom body, that bread should have been crucified! But why call His body bread, and not rather (some other edible thing, say) a melon, which Marcion must have had in lieu of a heart! He did not understand how ancient was this figure of the body of Christ, who said Himself by Jeremiah: ‘I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter, and I knew not that they devised a device against me, saying, Let us cast the tree upon His bread,’ which means, of course, the cross upon His body. And thus, casting light, as He always did, upon the ancient prophecies, He declared plainly enough what He meant by the bread, when He called the bread His own body.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

“He likewise, when mentioning the cup and making the new testament to be sealed ‘in His blood,’ affirms the reality of His body. For no blood can belong to a body which is not a body of flesh. If any sort of body were presented to our view, which is not one of flesh, not being fleshly, it would not possess blood. Thus, from the evidence of the flesh, we get a proof of the body, and a proof of the flesh from the evidence of the blood. In order, however, that you may discover how anciently wine is used as a figure for blood, turn to Isaiah, who asks, ‘Who is this that cometh from Edom, from Bosor with garments dyed in red, so glorious in His apparel, in the greatness of his might? Why are thy garments red, and thy raiment as his who cometh from the treading of the full winepress?’ The prophetic Spirit contemplates the Lord as if He were already on His way to His passion, clad in His fleshly nature; and as He was to suffer therein, He represents the bleeding condition of His flesh under the metaphor of garments dyed in red, as if reddened in the treading and crushing process of the wine-press, from which the labourers descend reddened with the wine-juice, like men stained in blood. Much more clearly still does the book of Genesis foretell this, when (in the blessing of Judah, out of whose tribe Christ was to come according to the flesh) it even then delineated Christ in the person of that patriarch, saying, ‘He washed His garments in wine, and His clothes in the blood of grapes’—in His garments and clothes the prophecy pointed out his flesh, and His blood in the wine. Thus did He now consecrate His blood in wine, who then (by the patriarch) used the figure of wine to describe His blood.” Tertullian, Against Marcion, 40 (A.D. 212).

“He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood?” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:4 (c. A.D. 350).

“Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man's heart, to make his face to shine with oil, ‘strengthen thou thine heart,’ by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.”” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350).

“Then having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual Hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the Bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is surely sanctified and changed.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXIII:7 (c. A.D. 350).

“Let us then in everything believe God, and gainsay Him in nothing, though what is said seem to be contrary to our thoughts and senses, but let His word be of higher authority than both reasonings and sight. Thus let us do in the mysteries also, not looking at the things set before us, but keeping in mind His sayings. For His word cannot deceive, but our senses are easily beguiled. That hath never failed, but this in most things goeth wrong. Since then the word saith, ‘This is my body,’ let us both be persuaded and believe, and look at it with the eyes of the mind. For Christ hath given nothing sensible, but though in things sensible yet all to be perceived by the mind...How many now say, I would wish to see His form, the mark, His clothes, His shoes. Lo! Thou seest Him, Thou touchest Him, thou eatest Him. And thou indeed desirest to see His clothes, but He giveth Himself to thee not to see only, but also to touch and eat and receive within thee.” John Chrysostom, Gospel of Matthew, Homily 82 (A.D. 370).

“You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made, it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ....When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body.” Athanasius, Sermon to the Newly Baptized, PG 26, 1325 (ante A.D. 373).

“Then He added: ‘For My Flesh is meat indeed, and My Blood is drink [indeed].’ Thou hearest Him speak of His Flesh and of His Blood, thou perceivest the sacred pledges, [conveying to us the merits and power] of the Lord's death, and thou dishonourest His Godhead. Hear His own words: ‘A spirit hath not flesh and bones.’ Now we, as often as we receive the Sacramental Elements, which by the mysterious efficacy of holy prayer are transformed into the Flesh and the Blood, “do show the Lord's Death.’” Ambrose, On the Christian Faith, 4, 10:125 (A.D. 380).

“Rightly, then, do we believe that now also the bread which is consecrated by the Word of God is changed into the Body of God the Word. For that Body was once, by implication, bread, but has been consecrated by the inhabitation of the Word that tabernacled in the flesh. Therefore, from the same cause as that by which the bread that was transformed in that Body was changed to a Divine potency, a similar result takes place now. For as in that case, too, the grace of the Word used to make holy the Body, the substance of which came of the bread, and in a manner was itself bread, so also in this case the bread, as says the Apostle, ‘is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer’; not that it advances by the process of eating to the stage of passing into the body of the Word, but it is at once changed into the body by means of the Word, as the Word itself said, ‘This is My Body.’” Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, 37 (post A.D. 383).

7 posted on 10/14/2008 7:16:02 PM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi

True faith is the assurance of salvation.

Those who assert they can never have assurance of salvation, testify to their lack of faith.


8 posted on 10/14/2008 7:16:42 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: stfassisi

LOL

“You, there! Unscrambled that egg! Quickly, now!”


9 posted on 10/14/2008 7:20:44 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: stfassisi
You side-stepped my question. Which of the churches as of say, 1700, was closer?

Next of course you will tell me about apostolic succession; does such a line of succession pass through murderers and bastard-makers?

10 posted on 10/14/2008 7:25:21 PM PDT by ikka
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To: randomhero97
“”Go back even further and read how the catholic church adopted pagan rituals from the old empire””

Go back and discover that it was the Catholic Church that you're calling pagan along with devout Catholics such as Saint Athansius who gave you New Testament canon and your Bible.

This would mean your Bible was given to you by people you call pagans.

What sort of God would do such a thing?

11 posted on 10/14/2008 7:29:58 PM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi; Heretic; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Quix
Heresy is an oxymoron.. Its not a matter of what you believe it is a matter of who you are..

"You MUST be born again"- Jesus..

12 posted on 10/14/2008 7:34:40 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: ikka
“”Next of course you will tell me about apostolic succession; does such a line of succession pass through murderers and bastard-makers?””

It's impossible to correspond to a hate monger gnostic with unhistorical facts

I wish you well in your search.

13 posted on 10/14/2008 7:38:34 PM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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From the op: “nor, but for Calvin, would Communism be with us as it is today”

But for the original corruption of the Catholic Church, we wouldn’t have had Calvin, sooooo....


14 posted on 10/14/2008 7:39:21 PM PDT by ar15lib
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To: ikka
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08426a.htm

Pope John XI (the “probable”bastard son of a Pope who became a Pope during the “reign of the harlots”)

Date of birth unknown, became pope in 931; d. 936. He was the son of Marozia by her first marriage with Alberic; some, taking Liutprand and the “Liber Pontificalis” as their authority, assert that he was the natural son of Sergius III (”Johannes, natione Romanus ex patre Sergio papa”, “Liber Pont.” ed. Duchesne, II, 243). Through the intrigues of his mother, who ruled at that time in Rome, he was raised to the Chair of Peter, and was completely under the influence of the Senatrix et Patricia of Rome. To strengthen her own power Marozia married her brother-in-law Hugh, King of Provence and Italy, whose reign in Rome was so tyrannical that a strong opposition party sprang up among the nobles under the leadership of Alberic II, the younger son of Marozia. This party succeeded in overthrowing the rule of Marozia and Hugh; Marozia was cast into prison, but her husband escaped from the city. In this way Alberic became ruler of Rome, and the pope, who suffered by his mother's fall, now became almost entirely subject to his brother, being only free in the exercise of his purely spiritual duties. All other jurisdiction was exercised through Alberic. This was not only the case in secular, but also in ecclesiastical affairs. It was at the instance of Alberic that the pallium was given to Theophylactus, Patriarch of Constantinople (935), and also to Artold, Archbishop of Reims (933). It was this pope who sat in the Chair of Peter during its deepest humiliation, but it was also he who granted many privileges to the Congregation of Cluny, which was later on so powerful an agent of Church reform.

15 posted on 10/14/2008 7:49:34 PM PDT by allmendream (White Dog Democrat: A Democrat who will not vote for 0bama because he's black.)
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To: stfassisi
Do you deny that Pope Alexander VI was part of the line of apostolic succession, as the Catholic Church claims?

And if he was, then what of his admitted children, and his lifelong history of bad behavior, as seen here:

Catholic.com entry on Alexander VI , quote "A stern Nemesis pursued him till death in the shape of a strong parental affection for his children."

Tell me, is the site Catholic.com also the site of "hate monger gnostics" who repeat "unhistorical facts" ?

16 posted on 10/14/2008 8:19:49 PM PDT by ikka
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To: stfassisi; DarthVader; iThinkBig

God has put me on the bench in terms of carrying the flag in such arguments.

However, folks who fail to understand that

HE HIMSELF will be dealing with such wholesale balderdash

are in for some serious surprises.


17 posted on 10/14/2008 8:21:53 PM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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they’ll get it sooner or later


18 posted on 10/14/2008 8:30:14 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: stfassisi
THE GREAT HERESIES-THE MODERN PHASE

The Protestant Heresy

The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene

Americanism, Then and Now: Our Pet Heresy (encyclical of Pope Leo XIII)

Heresies then and now: ancient Christian heresies practiced in modern times

The Plain Truth About The Baptist Bride Heresy

Balthasar, Hell, and Heresy: An Exchange (is it compatable with the Catholic faith?)

Heresies then and now: ancient Christian heresies practiced in modern times

Know Your Heresies

The Rev. John Piper: an interesting look at "heresy vs. schism"

Pietism as an Ecclesiological Heresy

Heresy

Arian Heresy Still Tempts, Says Cardinal Bertone (Mentions Pelagianism As Well)

Catholic Discussion] Church group stays faithful (to heresy!)

An overview of modern anti-Trinitarian heresies

Christian mavericks find affirmation in ancient heresies

Where heresy and dissent abound [Minnesota]

Gnostic Gospels - the heresy entitled "Gnosticism."

The So-Called ‘Gospel’ of Judas: Unmasking an Ancient Heresy

Benedict XVI Heresies and Errors

Donatism (Know your heresies)

The Heresy of Mohammed (Chapter 4, The Great Heresies)

Father & Son Catholic Writers Tag-Team Old & New Heresies

Heresies Of The Word-Faith Movement [Read Only]

19 posted on 10/14/2008 8:37:32 PM PDT by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: stfassisi

for later


20 posted on 10/14/2008 9:04:23 PM PDT by Desdemona (Lipstick only until the election. The gloss has been sacrificed for the greater good.)
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To: hosepipe

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!


21 posted on 10/14/2008 10:04:57 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Oh boy...


22 posted on 10/14/2008 10:30:06 PM PDT by Fichori (ironic: adj. 1 Characterized by or constituting irony. 2 Obamy getting beat up by a girl.)
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To: Fichori

LOLOL!


23 posted on 10/14/2008 10:57:14 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: ikka
Next of course you will tell me about apostolic succession; does such a line of succession pass through murderers and bastard-makers?

I'm not sure it's going to be possible to have a reasoned conversation here, but I'll try,

From our POV that argument smacks of "works-righteousness". The wonder is not only that some Popes were scoundrels whom Dante, no doubt with little fear of contradiction, wrote into the Inferno. The wonder is also that such scoundrels did not turn the Church aside from her essential task and message.

If we are going to adopt "simul justus et peccator" as a standard, well, peccatores are all over the Church, and yet the Gospel is preached and souls are saved.

In other news, I think the title of this thread is needlessly inflammatory, but Catholic ecclesiology and Protestant ecclesiology (to the extent that that is one thing) differ greatly. They can't both be right. So you all think we're teaching a heretical doctrine, and we think you are. There's plenty of "nyahh, nyahh!" to go around, if that's going to be the game.

24 posted on 10/15/2008 4:34:01 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Thank you for your response.

My wife is actually Catholic, pretty much conservative, we go to Mass each Sunday. I remain seated while 95% of the folks go up to receive Communion.

The reason for my harsh response is that I have met so many Catholics who are completely un-schooled in even the basics - one of my wife's college classmates got "hooked" on the DaVinci Code book and did not even know enough to understand why the concept of Jesus having married was completely un-orthodox and heretical from any standpoint.

My criticism of the Catholic Church is that they are essentially a spiritual version of the DMV - bureaucratic, slow-moving, not capable of generating excitement among people.

25 posted on 10/15/2008 4:41:10 AM PDT by ikka
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To: ikka
The saying of old is "I don't believe in organized religion; I'm a Catholic."

Yeah, boy, howdy!

Mind you, it's set up to be as inefficient as possible. Take a group of a billion, give or take, give it the principle of subsidiarity, a code of laws which consist mostly of exceptions, and things like the "rule" for lay Dominicans, which needs a directory to tell us what it means on the ground, and, besides, after the former rule was pretty much declared a dead letter, the new rule wasn't approved, and ... well, it makes you believe in God, because these people couldn't find their, uh, mitres with both hands.

In fact, that's one of the Mad Dawg "proofs" of the Church. God MUST be involved because if it had been left to these bozos the whole thing would have blown up in their face around 100 AD.

And another wise man has said, "It takes a lot of manure to grow roses." Seemingly our supply of roses is assured.

26 posted on 10/15/2008 5:14:53 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: ikka
The reason for my harsh response is that I have met so many Catholics who are completely un-schooled in even the basics - one of my wife's college classmates got "hooked" on the DaVinci Code book and did not even know enough to understand why the concept of Jesus having married was completely un-orthodox and heretical from any standpoint.

I can understand your point of view. I think this explains why so many Catholics leave - they haven't a clue of their faith and are indeed looking for God. They don't know their faith and do not recognize the symbols of the reality right in front of their face. So they go to seemingly "enthusiastic" communities that preach the bible alone. Usually, they are smaller communities where people get to know each other and appreciate God's Word. All of this is available in the Catholic Church, as well, if people took their faith more seriously.

When I ask people on why they leave, they talk about a 'dead religion'. I then ask, "what did you do about it? Did you try to start up a bible study or were you active in the St. Vincent de Paul society or some other active group?" Usually, the answer is "no". And it is so easy to convince another Christian that they are following false doctrines if the "catholic" doesn't know the first thing about his faith. I see this over and over on these sites, responses from "ex-catholics" who cannot explain the Catholic faith as taught in the Catechism, only a strawman taught to them by pastor Mary Sue...

Regards

27 posted on 10/15/2008 5:36:25 AM PDT by jo kus (You can't lose your faith? What about Luke 8:13...? God says you can...)
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To: stfassisi

May this humble Protestant beg your indulgence for our transgressions? Er, ... In round dollars, how much is that going to cost me?


28 posted on 10/15/2008 5:39:08 AM PDT by LTCJ (God Save the Constitution - Tar/Feathers '08)
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To: ikka
You seem to think that apostolic succession means that a Pope must be sinless?

Need I remind you of the horrific sinner that Saint Paul was in persecuting Christians before his conversion?

The Pope is infallibly protected from errors in dogmatic teachings regarding matters of Faith and Morals.

Many Popes had no involvement in these teachings through the ages.

This does not mean that they were not part of Apostolic succession either

Here is a more accurate source for Pope Alexander VI
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01289a.htm

29 posted on 10/15/2008 5:40:50 AM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: Quix; ikka
Yay, GOD! The bench is a nice place to be.

The feet are adequate, thank you.

So, lissen, is it the possibility of a kind of "The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord," self-delusion that cranks you up the most about this kind of thing, or what?

Certainly there is the risk or threat or somesuch of a kind of institutional arrogance and presumption. I would say that wasn't so much the problem with the idea of the institution itself but the sinfulness of the d00d with the idea.

That is, I can say, "I'm Catholic; I'm cool," OR I can say, "I'm Catholic. I have been given this awesome institutional gift as part of my allotment of talents. Woe is me if I bury this talent! Woe is me if I think having this talent I can leave it where it lies and, as long as I get my ticket punched, I am among the blessed."

It's not, to go further, a matter of earning my salvation. Far from it! But, well we used to distinguish between "free grace" and "cheap grace" in seminary. If I think God's grace a precious gift, I will think of it more and have recourse to it more and more. In my case extremely little by extremely little, the joy of having been given such a gift will penetrate my rough skin and even my stony heart and maybe, around the edges, little hints of vivification might be spotted, if the person looking were very alert and discerning. But, to be as clear as I can, that would be Christ's life, not mine, operating.

But we are clinging and posturing creatures. Given glorious robes because of the mercy of the King, we immediately put on airs as if the robes were earned, as if the King had finally realized OUR worth!

So we believe that the "plene esse of the Church subsists among those who are in communion with the See of Rome. If we say that as a boast, we are in peril -- I quite see that. If we view it as an entirely unmerited and bountiful gift, and one which not so much obliges but is itself also an obligation to appreciate more and more the splendor and grace of the gift, I think we are maybe not in such peril.

Let me put it another way. Being Catholic is to be poor. Any Catholic who thinks he's rich is poor indeed, while any Catholic who sees his poverty has all he needs.

Something like that anyway.

30 posted on 10/15/2008 5:47:59 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: LTCJ

Aw, come on! We take plastic now. (And people say we’re behind the times ... tsk tsk.)


31 posted on 10/15/2008 5:51:13 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: ikka
My criticism of the Catholic Church is that they are essentially a spiritual version of the DMV - bureaucratic, slow-moving, not capable of generating excitement among people.

Ask yourself why man has to be excited and amused all of the time in order to worship God?

Living a humble life of prayer and charity is not popular in the world of modern man who can only accept a religion self excitement and amusement

32 posted on 10/15/2008 5:51:16 AM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi; ikka
Sometimes it is the damped down fire that burns hottest.

There was a flaw in the latches of the early Vermont Castings "Resolute" stoves. A shifting log could open the door. One night this happened and the damped down fire roared and the stove burned red. It was a while before I could get close enough to close the door.

Today is Teresa of Avila's memorial. For a while she burned darkly and hotly. Finally she incandesced. So also with Catherine of Siena.

Mind you, every congregation has its share of wet blankets, but this is a flame which will not go out.

33 posted on 10/15/2008 6:13:51 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg; DarthVader; iThinkBig; Alamo-Girl

There’s much of His wisdom in your post, Brother.

Thanks.

I don’t know that I have a specific answer to what I understand of your question.

The abiding concern . . . in ANY large organized ‘Christian” group . . . is that the group, it’s dogma, customs, traditions etc. quickly—as in QUICKLY take priority in far too many lives

over God and Scripture and Holy Spirit.

I see the Vatican edifice as the worst example of that—unsurprisingly given the centuries etc. But it is far from the only example of that.

EVERY organized group older than about a year and a half has the same problems.

I am confident, however, that The Lord will be turning up the heat on all in this era . . . particularly those who most stridently CLAIM to be His while having another priority askew from Him regardless of how whitewashed.

And, I have a strong intuition that some hereon who have been most strident with askewed priorities will be getting some very extra attention from the refiner’s fires and sifting mechanisms of Heaven in their personal lives where their attachments are most intense.

God is done with playing church and with those who have a death grip on playing church—He will try to turn many of them around . . . but not endlessly and less and less politely.

As I’ve said before, I’m no longer concerned about your relationship with God, His having confirmed in my heart, mind and spirit that you have an authentic relationship with Him and that He’s well able and willing to sort out the details with you in His way and in His time. I’m quite cool with that.

I cherish your friendship and your Holy Spirit wisdom.

Some others hereon have no clue what tree they are barking up . . . nor the consequences accruing.


34 posted on 10/15/2008 7:26:14 AM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: stfassisi; ikka
apostolic succession

Does apostolic succession impugn the all-powerful Elohim ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua
35 posted on 10/15/2008 8:58:04 AM PDT by Uriel-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: stfassisi
It was not a particular movement but a general one, i.e., it did not propound a particular heresy which could be debated and exploded, condemned by the authority of the Church, as had hitherto been every other heresy or heretical movement.

Thanks for the post, albeit a lengthy one. I could comment on many portions of the text, but this very early statement caught my attention.

The Reformation started off as a particular movement when Martin Luther posted his 95 Thesis Against the Papal Use of Indulgences. Luther desparately wanted a debate, but the Church would not allow one. It was only when the Church, with the help of the Emperor, tried to silence Luther, did it become a very wide general movement. And to Luther's credit, he often times had to reign in those who used the general movement to their own religious and political ends. As such, Luther did everything he could to keep the Reformation as a specific movement.

It is true that there were other reformers that came later who tried to make the movement a general one -- the Anabaptists being one.

36 posted on 10/15/2008 9:15:52 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: ikka
...so many Catholics who are completely un-schooled in even the basics - one of my wife's college classmates got "hooked" on the DaVinci Code book and did not even know enough to understand why the concept of Jesus having married was completely un-orthodox and heretical from any standpoint.

Not to disagree with you, but I think the same is true of many protestants as well. When people believe that "belonging to a church" or "going to church" is enough, Christ's work remains undone.

37 posted on 10/15/2008 9:19:31 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: mlocher
The Reformation started off as a particular movement when Martin Luther posted his 95 Thesis Against the Papal Use of Indulgences. Luther desparately wanted a debate, but the Church would not allow one. It was only when the Church, with the help of the Emperor, tried to silence Luther, did it become a very wide general movement. And to Luther's credit, he often times had to reign in those who used the general movement to their own religious and political ends. As such, Luther did everything he could to keep the Reformation as a specific movement.

There were only a small amount people who were involved in the indulgence abuse issue and the Church condemned it and reprimanded those involved.

Luther made the mistake of not staying within the Church to reform from within and he ended up regretting what he did .Luther saw that it lead to confusion as he writes this...

"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet." De Wette III, 61. quoted in O'Hare

Luther goes than admits he was wrong and gives praise to the Catholic Church when he writes this...

"We concede -- as we must -- that so much of what they (the Catholic Church) say is true: that the papacy has God's word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?" Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER'S WORKS, St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304.

38 posted on 10/15/2008 11:10:54 AM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi
Luther made the mistake of not staying within the Church to reform from within and he ended up regretting what he did .Luther saw that it lead to confusion as he writes this...

You are correct, Luther did not want to leave the Catholic Church. He did want to reform it from within, but the church would have none of it. Luther was tried in a secular court at the advice of Duke Frederick the Wise, Elector. Archbishop Lang, the highest ranking catholic in the German States, was given the assignment of making Luther admit his heresy. Lang, of course, showed his true colors when he said that the Luther needed to be expelled. The words he used were a veiled death threat.

Luther's changes became very popular due to the handling of his "heresy" by the catholic church. Later, Luther realized that his separation from the church was God's will and was necessary for the good of the "pagan" peasants, as he called them.

39 posted on 10/15/2008 11:49:29 AM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: mlocher
You are correct, Luther did not want to leave the Catholic Church. He did want to reform it from within

Luther continued in his heretical solo scripture "sin boldly" attitude and there was no need for him to be part of the reform within the Church anymore than there was a need for the arians or any other heretical belief to be part of Church reform throughout the ages

Luther realized that his separation from the church was God's will

Joseph Smith, David Korish and even the muslim's believe they were following God's will as well.

We know there can only be one truth though,not many opposite of it with various beliefs

I wish you a blessed day

40 posted on 10/15/2008 12:53:34 PM PDT by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: stfassisi
Luther continued in his heretical solo scripture "sin boldly" attitude and there was no need for him to be part of the reform within the Church anymore than there was a need for the arians or any other heretical belief to be part of Church reform throughout the ages

Luther's reforms were of a spiritual nature and about the freedom that all Christians have. The church did not want to acknowledge this and made every attempt to stifle him. At the time of Luther, the church did not want to reform, even though there were pockets of Luther sympathizers, such as Erasmus.

Joseph Smith, David Korish and even the muslim's believe they were following God's will as well.

Thanks for putting all protestants in the same bucket with these people who clearly were at odds with the Bible.

We know there can only be one truth though,not many opposite of it with various beliefs

There is only one truth. John 3:16 pretty much sums it up for me.

I wish you a blessed day

And you also!

41 posted on 10/15/2008 1:16:51 PM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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To: stfassisi; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

42 posted on 10/15/2008 5:38:57 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Quix

***God has put me on the bench in terms of carrying the flag in such arguments.***

Has He? Do you have a copy of that email so that the rest of us can do a St. Thomas.


43 posted on 10/15/2008 5:53:34 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; iThinkBig; DarthVader; Mad Dawg

Most folks hereon have not been vetted sufficiently nor granted sufficient security clearances for that level of personal disclosure.

And, some things are too precious to cast into the mud.


44 posted on 10/15/2008 6:02:57 PM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Quix

***Most folks hereon have not been vetted sufficiently nor granted sufficient security clearances for that level of personal disclosure.

And, some things are too precious to cast into the mud.***

It’s nice to see someone devoted to their beliefs. :)


45 posted on 10/15/2008 6:08:27 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

It’s nice to see someone devoted to their beliefs.

= = = =

I wasn’t aware that

ANYone hereon

had any doubts about me on THAT score!

LOL.


46 posted on 10/15/2008 6:21:11 PM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Quix

***It’s nice to see someone devoted to their beliefs.

= = = =

I wasn’t aware that

ANYone hereon

had any doubts about me on THAT score!***

I don’t think so either. Now understanding them is another thing altogether...


47 posted on 10/15/2008 6:32:10 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Now understanding them is another thing altogether...

= = =

In my 61 years of experience so far . . .

there are a range of some types of miracles that God has NOT graced me with the anointing to be an agent for.

That level of miracle on that issue appears to be one of them.


48 posted on 10/15/2008 6:40:26 PM PDT by Quix (POL LDRS GLOBALIST QUOTES: #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Quix

***In my 61 years of experience so far . . .

there are a range of some types of miracles that God has NOT graced me with the anointing to be an agent for.

That level of miracle on that issue appears to be one of them.***

Sad, really. Still, we must try.


49 posted on 10/15/2008 6:48:41 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: stfassisi
“Let us then in everything believe God, and gainsay Him in nothing, though what is said seem to be contrary to our thoughts and senses, but let His word be of higher authority than both reasonings and sight."

But of course when it comes to Genesis suddenly the Bible ceases to say what it means and must be subjected to the critique of atheist scientists. Even the testimony of the church fathers is dismissed because "they didn't know then what we know now."

Say what you will about Protestantism, and it certainly has its problems (I am not Protestant), but Catholicism has been totally taken over by evolution and higher criticism. Most Catholic FReepers, even the "traditionalists," usually turn out to be evolutionists and apologists of "higher criticism."

50 posted on 10/15/2008 7:51:55 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Sof davar hakol nishma`; 'et-Ha'Eloqim yera' ve'et-mitzvotayv shemor, ki-zeh kol-ha'adam.)
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