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Luther decade opened
The Telegram ^ | 10/16/2008 | HANS ROLLMANN

Posted on 10/18/2008 8:20:43 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

A few weeks ago, in the historic Castle Church of Wittenberg in Saxony, Lutherans from all over the world opened the “Luther Decade,” celebrations that coincide with Martin Luther’s (1483-1546) arrival in Wittenberg 500 years ago in 1508 and commemorate the achievement and global significance of the German reformer. Nine years later, on 31 October 1517, Luther not only castigated the abuses of indulgence sellers with his “95 theses” but also offered a new understanding of what it meant to be a Christian. Ushering in the modern age, Luther held that the individual, not the institutional church, stood at the center of God’s relationship with humankind.

According to his friend Philipp Melanchthon, Luther posted his sharply profiled theological arguments on the door of that same Castle Church. This signal event in Luther’s life took place while he lectured as a brilliant interpreter of the Bible in Wittenberg University, living together with other monks in the local Augustinian monastery and serving as pastor and father confessor in local churches.

Wittenberg and its university were places of pride for the leader of Electoral Saxony, Prince Frederick the Wise. This Saxon ruler also protected Luther and kept him alive during the early and uncertain years of the Reformation, enabling the movement for reform to gain momentum.

New Religious Insight

I visited Wittenberg shortly after the reunification of Germany and saw the monastery in which the reformer lived together with his wife Katharina von Bora, a former nun, and their family. The city still exhibited the drab grey colour into which all East German cities and villages appeared to be dipped during the Communist period. Earlier, in that monastery, Luther had experienced his so-called “breakthrough,” the insight that individuals could not be saved by their own merits but only by the grace of God.

Meditating on a passage in the letter of the Apostle Paul to the Romans, “The righteousness of God is revealed, as it is written, the righteous shall live by faith,” Luther finally made the connection between faith, grace, and justification and found an answer to his troubling question: How could he, a sinner, ever be accepted by God? Up to that point, Luther had seen God’s righteousness as a punishing judgment of sinners. Now he read the text of Paul in an entirely different light as a hopeful answer to a very personal problem, that righteousness was a gift of God “by which the merciful God justifies us through faith.”

This new understanding of God’s acceptance of the sinner through the gift of his grace changed for Luther the whole face of Scripture and set the Reformation in motion. Luther would remain in Wittenberg even after his defiant stand before emperor and nobles at the Diet of Worms and subsequent seclusion in the Wartburg castle, where he also translated the New Testament into German.

Fallible Individual

Although Luther became a global icon of Protestantism and in recent years has once more won recognition as the “most famous German,” his work and persona are not without dark shadows. Luther remained a thoroughly fallible individual, whose advice to princes and lords was not always without guile. His intemperate, even hateful language against Jews provided some of the building blocks of 19th- and 20th-century anti-Semitism. Any appreciation of Luther has to recognize these limitations and failures. That there remains enough worth celebrating is demonstrated by the recent commemorative events.

Newfoundland Lutherans

In Newfoundland, Lutherans have never been a strong presence. An organized Lutheran congregation existed in St. John’s from 1956 to 1976, composed primarily of Latvians and Germans, most of whom had followed Joey Smallwood’s beckoning call to save the province economically through industrialization. The controversial figure of Alfred Valdmanis, Smallwood’s director general of economic development, was a driving force behind the early Trinity Evangelical Lutheran Church in Saint John’s. The congregation erected a modern A-frame church building on Logy Bay Road that closed its doors in 1976 and is now the home of the Vera Perlin Society.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: europeanchristians; luther; lutheran; lutherans; martinluther
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1 posted on 10/18/2008 8:20:43 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
Steve E. Ozment. Luther on Family Life.
Luther personally preferred secret bigamy to divorce and remarriage, when a marriage had irretrievably broken down. He sanctioned such an arrangement for women with impotent husbands as early as 1521. If a woman in such a situation could not take her case to the divorce court out of fear of notoriety, he advised that she enter with her husband's consent a secret marriage with his brother or another male mutually agreed upon, and raise any children of this second union as if they were those of the impotent husband. Luther preferred such an arrangement to outright divorce because he believed it ensured continuing companionship and support for each spouse (in this case, psychological for the husband and financial for the wife), while at the same time it prevented whoring and adultery on the part of the healthy spouse (in this case, the wife), who gained from it a regular sexual outlet.
And more:
The document sanctioning the bigamy of the landgrave was signed by Martin Bucer, Luther and Melanchthon, and is a humiliating paper. It may be thus summarized. According to the original commandment of God, marriage is between one man and one woman, and this original precept has been confirmed by our Lord; but sin brought it about that first Lamech, then the heathen, and then Abraham, took more than one wife, and this was permitted under the law. We are now living under the Gospel, which does not give prescribed rules for the external life and has not expressly prohibited bigamy. The law of the land expresses the original commandment of God, and the plain duty of the pastorate is to denounce bigamy. Nevertheless, the pastorate, in single cases of the direst need and to prevent worse, may sanction bigamy in a purely exceptional way. Such a bigamous marriage is a true marriage in the sight of God (the necessity being proved), but it is not a true marriage in the eye of public law and custom. Such a marriage and the dispensation for it ought to be kept secret; if it is made known, the dispensation becomes eo ipso invalid and the marriage is mere concubinage. The principle which underlies this extraordinary paper is probably the conception that the Protestant church has the same dispensing power which the medieval church claimed, but that it was to be exercised altogether apart from fees of any kind.

2 posted on 10/18/2008 8:25:44 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Alex Murphy
Here is a 'great' Lutherism:
Intercourse is never without Sin; but God excuses it by his grace because the estate of marriage is his work, and he preserves in and through the sin all that good which he has implanted and blessed in marriage.

3 posted on 10/18/2008 8:29:03 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Alex Murphy

LUTHER CONDONED THE DEATHS OF A 100,000 PEASANTS

The peasants of Germany revolted in 1525 because of their miserable living conditions and were slaughtered at the behest of Martin Luther!

Here is a quote from Luther that will send chills up your spine:

“They should be knocked to pieces, strangled and stabbed, secretly and openly, by everybody who can do it, just as one must kill a mad dog!”

Are these the words of a Christian and a great reformer? I think not! Luther was an evil man who urged the slaughter of the poor who had revolted. He told people to knock the peasants to pieces and strangle and stab them. 100,000 German peasants were horribly slaughtered in the revolt!

(From http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/reformers.htm - an Anabaprtist point of view.)


4 posted on 10/18/2008 8:31:08 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Alex Murphy

When are you guys going to start burning down Lutheran churches?


5 posted on 10/18/2008 8:35:52 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Alex Murphy
How can we forget the loving kindness of Luther? Martin Luther's Seven-Point Plan
Martin Luther's Seven-Point Plan. Can you see the similarity with Hitler's plans for the Jews and Luther's seven plans for the Jews as listed below?

  • synagogues should be set on fire
  • Jewish homes should be burned to the ground, the people kept in stables like horses
  • they should be deprived of prayer books and Scriptures in which is found lies, curses and blasphemy
  • the rabbis must be forbidden under the threat of death to engage in teaching
  • Jews should be forbidden passports and not allowed to travel
  • all their money and valuables of silver and gold should be confiscated and kept by the government
  • let the young and strong, male and female alike, be given garden implements to work the land for food

6 posted on 10/18/2008 8:36:08 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
Luther's plan for a “final solution” to the “Jewish problem”.

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: “what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord.” Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], “You are Peter,” etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

7 posted on 10/18/2008 8:36:55 AM PDT by allmendream (White Dog Democrat: A Democrat who will not vote for 0bama because he's black.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Luther on sin and the devil:
"Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to."

8 posted on 10/18/2008 8:37:22 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: allmendream

See post 6, :)


9 posted on 10/18/2008 8:37:53 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: allmendream

“God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed.”

“Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders.”


10 posted on 10/18/2008 8:38:58 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses

You have underscored the unreliability of a single man or a single monstrous organization as deserving our unthinking devotion. Our allegiance should be Jesus Christ not Rome, not Martin Luther. That he identified a large number of outrageous, demonic doctrines and practices by the aberrant Roman Church clearly did not make him without fault.


11 posted on 10/18/2008 8:44:37 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

LOL, truly. Thanks for the funny.


12 posted on 10/18/2008 8:45:55 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Dutchboy88

LOL, truly. Thanks for the funny.


13 posted on 10/18/2008 8:45:55 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
“For did you not know that a Jew is so beloved of God, that every time one farts, a thousand Angels dance?” Martin Luther
14 posted on 10/18/2008 8:46:26 AM PDT by allmendream (White Dog Democrat: A Democrat who will not vote for 0bama because he's black.)
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To: allmendream

“As to the common people, ... one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts.”


15 posted on 10/18/2008 8:57:08 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: lightman

lightman, here’s one for your Lutheran Ping List...


16 posted on 10/18/2008 8:58:44 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (What can I say? It's a gift. And I didn't get a receipt, so I can't exchange it.)
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To: Alex Murphy
As a Lutheran, I can tell you that we all know Martin Luther's views and deeds, good and bad. He was a sinful man, just like us all. What does this have to do with anything?

The Catechism of the Lutheran Church is a deeply spiritual book. And the Augsburg Confessions are the cornerstone of the Protestant Reformation, and they are incredibly valuable to all Protestants, and the truth contained within them is also very deep and profound. Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura.

We are saved by grace through faith. That is the heart of the Protestant Faith - and that includes all Evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, and a myriad of independent evangelical congregations.

Paul was a murderer who killed many Christians before he was converted. Even after he was converted he wrote Romans 7:13-7:28. He was a sinful man and he knew it. Just because he was an apostle did not remove his sinful nature. The same can be said of Luther. Just because he did and said sinful things does not destroy the Biblical truths he restored to mankind. Luther's 95 theses were a direct challenge to the Church and its wickedness at the time.

Luther helped (not solely by himself, but he started it) to cast off all of the manufactured ideas of men that had crept into the Church and were enforced on an ignorant population through the concept of "magesterium". He confronted the evils of the Church, especially the selling of indulgences to fill the coffers of the Vatican, the untrue teaching of things like "purgatory" (which was a money making scheme from the beginning), the worship of relics, and so many other teachings the church "made up" (ultimately this led to jettisoning things like Mariolotry too).

Luther's "Here I Stand" speech contains some of the most honest and profound truth, and is one of the greatest pieces of oratory, ever.

17 posted on 10/18/2008 9:12:26 AM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Alex Murphy
"Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or devilish than a rebel ... For baptism does not make men free in body and property, but in soul; and the gospel does not make goods common, except in the case of those who, of their own free will, do what the apostles and disciples did in Acts 4 [:32–37]. They did not demand, as do our insane peasants in their raging, that the goods of others—of Pilate and Herod—should be common, but only their own goods. Our peasants, however, want to make the goods of other men common, and keep their own for themselves. Fine Christians they are! I think there is not a devil left in hell; they have all gone into the peasants. Their raving has gone beyond all measure."

That's Luther's full quote. He would be considered "Anti-Communist" today.

18 posted on 10/18/2008 9:17:31 AM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Boagenes

“He was a sinful man, just like us all. What does this have to do with anything?”

He set himself up as the arbiter of the Christian faith, rejecting that which he had been given and creating a new structure. In his role as the head of that new structure he called for attacks on Jews, he approved bigamy for the powerful and he exhorted people to sin. That he was rtight about many things won’t change the reality of the damage he did and still does to all of Christendom. Ask “Bishop” Vicky Eugene Robinson.


19 posted on 10/18/2008 11:09:08 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
.....He set himself up as the arbiter of the Christian faith, rejecting that which he had been given and creating a new structure.

Hmmmm then he certainly is not without a long list of accompanying flesh man now is he? You gain NO elevation of any other flesh man by ridiculing Luther. God certainly allowed him to lead his charge.

20 posted on 10/18/2008 11:24:35 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: narses
The Fruit of Luther’s revolt has been death, destruction and heresy. Luther himself called for and caused such things.

You want to honestly cover the time since Christ and only point to Luther as the master of death and revolt. I think you need to spend some time in who it was that slew the disciples downward and there after in the name of Christ. And Luther is dead as well as those numerous others that brought forth death to Christians in the name of some such church or another. From my study NONE of these that used Christ to kill anybody as part of their religious scheme find standing in the WORD, which according to John 1:1 is God.

Now God Himself said FEAR not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR Him Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

So how many souls has Luther killed? NOT ONE!!!!

22 posted on 10/18/2008 11:37:53 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

So how many souls has Luther killed?

All those who followed his advice to sin. All those who broke their vows and died unrepentant. The many who follow his false “Bishop” Vicky Eugene Robinson in sin today.


23 posted on 10/18/2008 11:41:20 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Just mythoughts

So how many souls has Luther killed?

All those who followed his advice to sin. All those who broke their vows and died unrepentant. The many who follow his false “Bishop” Vicky Eugene Robinson in sin today.


24 posted on 10/18/2008 11:41:24 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: aberaussie; Aeronaut; AlternateViewpoint; AnalogReigns; Archie Bunker on steroids; Arrowhead1952; ..


Lutheran Ping!
25 posted on 10/18/2008 11:41:48 AM PDT by lightman (Sarah Palin: A REAL woman, not an empty pantsuit!)
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To: narses; Alex Murphy

Actually, that advice makes some sense. :-)


26 posted on 10/18/2008 11:46:17 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: narses
So how many souls has Luther killed? All those who followed his advice to sin. All those who broke their vows and died unrepentant. The many who follow his false “Bishop” Vicky Eugene Robinson in sin today.

So who put you in charge of judgment? That DAY is for each and every one of us and by the way YOUR earthly priest is NOT going to get to sit in with you for your failings.

27 posted on 10/18/2008 11:48:39 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Larry Lucido

Sin to spie Satan? Sensible only to Lucifer and his ilk.

The advice the Good Book gives is, “Flee from sins as from the face of a serpent; for if thou comest near them, they will take hold of thee.” (Ecclesiasticus 21:2)

And:

“Before man is life and death, good and evil; that which he shall choose shall be given him.” (Ecclesiasticus 15:18)

If you follow Luther’s advice:

“For the wages of sin is death; but the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

If you follow Our Lord:

“Be ye therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 6:48)


28 posted on 10/18/2008 11:51:39 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses

***The many who follow his false “Bishop” Vicky Eugene Robinson in sin today.***

Is that like the Roman CATHOLIC priests who sodomized small boys?


29 posted on 10/18/2008 11:52:05 AM PDT by Gamecock (Sadistic preachers don't talk about Hell.)
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To: Just mythoughts

“So who put you in charge of judgment?”

LOL, no one. Whio put Luther in charge? Satan.


30 posted on 10/18/2008 11:52:17 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
LOL, no one. Whio put Luther in charge? Satan.

Same spirit that put a man in charge of the Roman church, you want to blame Satan that is your call.

31 posted on 10/18/2008 11:54:06 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Gamecock

Nope. Any one who abuses children is hated by Our Lord. How much more so those who preach sin from the pulpit pretending to the office of Bishop?


32 posted on 10/18/2008 11:55:07 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Just mythoughts

You may pretend that Satan put Peter and the Apostles in charge, an odd view. Reality is that Our Lord did that. What Luther did, by his fruits, was sinful in the extreme.


33 posted on 10/18/2008 11:56:11 AM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses

Same as the Catholic church moving child molesters from one parish to another.

Winking at behaviour is encouraging sin.


34 posted on 10/18/2008 12:13:58 PM PDT by Gamecock (Sadistic preachers don't talk about Hell.)
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To: Gamecock; Just mythoughts

'Jesus is the Homosexual Agenda'

Bishop V. Gene Robinson, the first openly gay ordained Episcopal bishop, talks about the challenges before his church.

On June 14, 2006, the second day of the 75th Episcopal General Convention, Bishop V. Gene Robinson, the first openly gay bishop to be ordained in the church, made the following statement:

 It is very clear to us in the religious community that God is alive and well and working in the culture in organizations such as the Human Rights Campaign, and so we sought to become allies with them. They and other so-called secular organizations were cautious about our seeking them out, as well they should be.

Let’s be clear here: The church has been the primary source of the oppressions that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people have experienced through out their lives. Just as Scripture was used to justify slavery as recently as 150 years ago, just as Scripture was used to keep women out of leadership positions in the church . . . Scripture was used to fight both of those movements of the spirit. And so, indeed, the Church has been the source of most of the pain that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people have experienced. And what we try to say to the Human Rights Campaign and others is, if the church is the cause of this oppression it needs to be church people who undo this oppression, and that is what we are trying to do here.

Let’s also be clear that the religious right, both within our church and in other churches, are still proclaiming  those kinds of oppressive things that are causing our children to grow up doubting whether indeed they are beloved by God or are an abomination. . . . Only religious people can undo that oppression and that is indeed what we along with the Human Rights Campaign are trying to do in this day and time.
 
I agree with the conservatives on one point. The conservative voices in our church are saying that at this very moment in the life of our church we are fighting for the soul of the church. I think that is absolutely right. The question is whether this will be a church about rules, about walls, about division, about schism, about threats, about violent language, or will this be a church about the all-inclusive love of God in which every, every baptized person will hear in his or her own heart what Jesus heard at his baptism – you are my beloved, in you I am well pleased.
 
The reason we are at this moment in the life of the Episcopal Church is that there are enough of us gay and lesbian folk that have laid claim to that promise, to that blessing, if you will, that we are God’s beloved children also along with all other baptized members of the church, and we will not let go of that blessing.  And the reason we are at this moment is that there are other people, many people in our church who recognize Christ in the faces and lives of its gay and lesbian members. And so we are fighting over the soul of this church, about whether this will be a church about God’s love for all of God’s children or something else, something from the past, something from which we should repent. It is a great moment to be here . . .  
 
After his statement, Robinson and others took questions from the assembled press, who represented the secular and religious media. Following are Bishop Robinson's answers.
 
 What evidence do you have against the likelihood of schism?
 
I think we are at a place in our church where we want to listen very carefully to what is being said to us from our partners in mission around the world, and at the same time not be dictated to. We are a confederation of 38 autonomous provinces of the Anglican Communion and I am not aware of other times when the Communion has tried to tell one of its constituent autonomous provinces what will and will not be done. What I think the call of this convention is, is for us to discern the mind and will of God as humbly and as best as we can and to stand up and say that. It is not our job to decide what the Anglican Communion will or will not do in response to our actions. What we are called to do is to as faithfully as we can discern God’s will and act on it in our context.
Let me remind you that no one, not in this church, is asking anyone else in the Anglican Communion to raise up gay and lesbian people to affirm them, to ordain them, to consecrate them bishops. This is not some kind of ecclesiastical colonialism here . . . We are only asking to be allowed to do this in our own context.
It is not a surprise to me that the Archbishop of Nigeria is opposed to this issue. The Archbishop of Nigeria is supportive of legislation in that country that imprisons gay and lesbian people and he is supporting currently proposed legislation that will even criminalize a heterosexual person for speaking out for gay and lesbian rights. It is not a surprise to me that he does not know any faithful Christian gay and lesbian folk. No one is asking that church in the Anglican Communion to change its policies or its beliefs.
However, we do know those people in our church who are faithful and monogamous and have lifelong intention in their relationships. We know them because they are sitting here, they are deputies to this convention, they preside at our altars at Holy Communion and they now have one of us as a bishop. We do know those people and we are only seeking to do what God seems to be calling us to do in our context. We are not trying to export that anywhere. We are just trying to say this is what God is calling us to do at this moment . . .
 
What do you think will happen when there is a vote on this [the Windsor Commission report]?
 
I have made a commitment not to do a lot of conjecture about what will or won’t happen. They don’t give you a crystal ball when they consecrate you a bishop. I could have used that. What I will say is that we are not going away. We have been a part of this church since its inception. We will continue to be a part of this church. We are not threatening to leave. The last thing we will do is leave the table. And you see, I think that is what communion is about. It is some kind of commitment to stay at the table, no matter what.
It is our great gift as Anglicans to offer to the worldwide church of every denomination, which is to say that we can disagree about lots of things, and Lord knows Episcopalians do. We are all over the map on virtually every issue you can name. But we all go up to the altar rail and receive the body and the blood of Christ as humbly as we can, and then we go back to the pews and fight about all those things. That is our great gift to the worldwide church.
And we are going to stay at the table. That is the table of the Lord’s Last Supper, the table around which we can discuss all these issues. That I am absolutely sure will continue no matter what happens at this convention.

Continued on page 2: After we've finished obsessing about sex... »

35 posted on 10/18/2008 12:14:07 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
You may pretend that Satan put Peter and the Apostles in charge, an odd view. Reality is that Our Lord did that. What Luther did, by his fruits, was sinful in the extreme.

What a total and complete distortion of what I have said. Now but interestingly what exactly did Christ say to Peter.....Matthew 16:23 But He turned, and said unto Peter, "Get thee behind ME, Satan: thou art an offence unto ME: for thou savourest not the things be of God but those that be of men." HMMMMMMM?????

36 posted on 10/18/2008 12:15:44 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

See the FRUIT of the Lutheran scnadal above. He says ‘Jesus is the Homosexual Agenda’.

Q.E.D.


37 posted on 10/18/2008 12:20:43 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: Gamecock

Moral relativism seems to define that point of view. Equating the sinful and criminal beahvior of individuals to the teaching from the pulpit of the vile successors to Luther is what has led us to where we are today. Sad.


38 posted on 10/18/2008 12:24:34 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
See the FRUIT of the Lutheran scnadal above. He says ‘Jesus is the Homosexual Agenda’. Q.E.D.

Are you seriously suggesting that Luther is behind a homo scandal? I am sorry but Rome has not exactly put out the hot embers of perversion, especially in our modern times.

You do seem to keep ignoring that ALLLLLLLLL are fallen, not just Adam and that woman Eve, but ALLLLLL fall short of the glory, which is why the blood sacrifice of the only perfect flesh being was required for any of us to have salvation.

39 posted on 10/18/2008 12:29:59 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

You seem to accept those who exhort the flock to sin while pretending to be shepherds.


40 posted on 10/18/2008 12:31:20 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
You seem to accept those who exhort the flock to sin while pretending to be shepherds.

NO I just do not go out to ancient graveyards to dig up flesh remains to point ugly fingers as causation. Remember what Christ said to Peter it applies to each and every one of US even to this day. YOUR church was NOT even in the Yellow Book when Christ exhorted Peter.

41 posted on 10/18/2008 12:36:24 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

“NO I just do not go out to ancient graveyards to dig up flesh remains to point ugly fingers as causation.”

Good ol’ Vickster, the Lutheran “Bishop’ is alive and teaching sin today. Just like the founder of his heretical sect did centuries ago.


42 posted on 10/18/2008 12:37:41 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
Good ol’ Vickster, the Lutheran “Bishop’ is alive and teaching sin today. Just like the founder of his heretical sect did centuries ago.

And he has much company from many denominations hailing in the name of Christ.... And you have earned NO right to JUDGE Luther. That is the business of our Heavenly Father..... Might say clean out your own nest of Pelosi, Kennedy, etc., etc., etc., before you jute out that finger of accusation. These have far more standing in your church of Rome than little old me a nobody in your churches eyes.

43 posted on 10/18/2008 12:44:01 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

He has much company, none of it in the actual teaching of Our Lord though. When faced with a choice, I choose the Church Our Lord gave us rather than the heretical sects Lucifer has placed in front of us.

As for seeing the truth that false prophets like Luther are evil, well that is called discernment. Judgment is the province of God, discernment is Gift He gives to His Elect.


44 posted on 10/18/2008 12:47:52 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
As for seeing the truth that false prophets like Luther are evil, well that is called discernment. Judgment is the province of God, discernment is Gift He gives to His Elect.

Paul says the 'elect' were chosen before the foundation of this world.... Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

Now that would have been before that 'soul' was breathed into that man called the Adam. And Luther was not singled out to be a follower of the devil anywhere or the causation of devil worship. Oh and I am not a Lutheran just so you know.

45 posted on 10/18/2008 12:53:00 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

“And Luther was not singled out to be a follower of the devil anywhere or the causation of devil worship.”

You know this how? Luther exhorted men to sin, to kill, to be bigamists.

“Oh and I am not a Lutheran just so you know.”

OK. What creed do you profess?


46 posted on 10/18/2008 12:56:12 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
OK. What creed do you profess?

What creed did Christ profess? John 1:1 In the beginning (Genesis 1:1) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Can't find a flesh anointed creed given.

47 posted on 10/18/2008 12:59:25 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts

So you are a Uniterian? A Mormon?


48 posted on 10/18/2008 1:04:22 PM PDT by narses (http://www.youtube.com/TheMouthPeace)
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To: narses
So you are a Uniterian? A Mormon?

I do not know about Unitarian and learned what I do know about Mormons via the Romney presidential run. I am Christian, Christ said it I believe. I have lost the need for a denominational stamp of approval.... IF God is the WORD then I have NO problem making that WORD my focus. Becomes easier to deal with Luther bashing as though he was the devil incarnate of his time. I am sure there was not much glee in religious circles when King James decided the commoners had the right to read the Written Word in his day.

49 posted on 10/18/2008 1:10:08 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: narses
LUTHER CONDONED THE DEATHS OF A 100,000 PEASANTS

Many Jews thought that Jesus was going to create a kingdom for the Jews on Earth. Jesus clearly was fighting for a heavenly kingdom.

In 1525, many peasants thought that Luther was leading a social transformation to overthrow the tyranny of the lords and the church. Luther transformation was also a spiritual one.

50 posted on 10/18/2008 1:15:40 PM PDT by mlocher (USA is a sovereign nation)
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