Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Who Really Owns the “Holy Land”?
Counsel of Chalcedon ^ | June 2006 | Robert L. Reymond

Posted on 10/28/2008 5:39:59 PM PDT by topcat54

Quite plainly, Abraham understood that the land promised to him actually had both its origin and its antitypical fulfillment in the heavenly, eternal reality that lay still in the future. Possession of a particular tract of land in ancient times might have significance from a number of perspectives with respect to God’s redemptive working in the world, but clearly the land promise under the Abrahamic covenant served simply as a type, anticipating the future reality of the coming of the Messianic kingdom with the Messiah himself assuming the throne of David in Heaven, and ruling the universe after his resurrection and ascension, and reigning until all his enemies have been put under his feet. How was it possible for Abraham to have the view of the land promise that the New Testament ascribed to him? What led him to “spiritualize” the promise to make it entail future heavenly, kingdom realities? The answer lies in the fact that he took seriously God’s promise to him that “in [him] all the families of the Earth would be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). Therefore, he perceived that the promise to him and his offspring, who is Christ (Galatians 3:16), entailed that in Christ “he would be heir [not of Palestine but] of the [glorified] world [kosmou]” (Romans 4:13). Plainly, Abraham under-stood that God’s land promise meant that God would restore the entire cosmos to its former paradisical glory and in that he placed his hope and patiently waited for it. His faith and understanding would have been satisfied with nothing less! Moses too, and his contemporaries, wandered in the wilderness of Sinai for forty years, and died in faith, not having received the promise (Hebrews 11:39).

(Excerpt) Read more at counselofchalcedon.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: eschatology; israel; jews; replacementtheology

1 posted on 10/28/2008 5:39:59 PM PDT by topcat54
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: ItsOurTimeNow; HarleyD; suzyjaruki; nobdysfool; jkl1122; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Reformed Eschatology Ping List (REPL)
Biblically Optimistic and Gospel-Based

"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)

2 posted on 10/28/2008 5:41:36 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
Who really owns the "Holy Land"?

The Jews. Next question?

3 posted on 10/28/2008 5:43:48 PM PDT by Poison Pill
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
The entire article is available at the Trinity Review.

From the Conclusion:

1.The modern Jewish state is not a part of the Messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ. Even though this particular political state came into being on May 14, 1948, it would be a denial of Jesus’ affirmation that his kingdom is “not of this world order” (John 18:36) to assert that modern Israel is a part of his Messianic kingdom. To put it bluntly, modern Israel is not true Israel at all, but is rather “the spiritual son of Hagar” (Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 4:24-25) and thus is “Ishmaelitish” to the core, due to its lack of Abrahamic belief in Jesus Christ.21 It has accordingly forsaken any legitimate Biblical claim to Palestine.

2. The land promise of the Old Testament served as a type of the consummate realization of the purposes of God for his redeemed people that encompasses “all the nations” (Genesis 12:3) and the entire cosmos (Romans 4:13). Christians as members of the Messianic kingdom of God are the real heirs, along with Abraham, of the land promise in its antitypical, consummated character.

3. Because of the inherently limited scope of the land promised in the Old Testament, it cannot be regarded as having continuing significance in the realm of redemption other than in its function as a model to teach that obedience and divine blessing go hand in hand while disobedience and divine retribution also go hand in hand.

4. The Old Testament predictions about the “return” of “Israel” to the “land” in terms of a geo-political reestablishment of the state of Israel are more properly interpreted as having fulfillment at the “restoration of all things” that will accompany the resurrection of believers at the return of Christ (Acts 3:21; Romans 8:22-23). To interpret these predictions literally would be a retrograde elevation of type over antitype.

5. The future Messianic kingdom will embrace the whole of the recreated cosmos and will not experience a special manifestation that could be regarded in any sense as “Jewish” in the so-called “holy land” or anywhere else.

4 posted on 10/28/2008 5:48:55 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

‘Who really owns the “Holy Land”?’
God! We are but entrusted with earthly possessions while we are here. God entusted the Jews (as was mentioned prior) with the area known as the Holy Land.


5 posted on 10/28/2008 5:51:45 PM PDT by Mustng959
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Poison Pill
The Jews own it today because they took it and have successfully defended it. In the entire 280,000 years of human habitation of the region we now call the Holy Land the Jews have only “owned” it for a few hundred years. The permanent settlement of Jericho predates Abraham's arrival by well over 5,000 years. Once the Jews became the dominant peoples in the region they abandoned the region for Egypt. Upon their return they only held the Holy land for a few generations before successive invasions of Assyrians, Hittites, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Malmuk Egyptians, Crusaders, Khurds, Ottomans, French, and British ended with the creation of the nation of Israel.Those who also call themselves the Children of Abraham, Christians and Muslims, could claim the same right of ownership were it left to that.
6 posted on 10/28/2008 5:54:17 PM PDT by Natural Law
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
The fulfillment of the promise to bless all the families of the earth through THE Seed, Christ, in no way negates the physical, literal earthly territorial promises.

The Old Testament is chock full of promises to regather Abraham's physical seed to the land given to them under Joshua, and the promises in Ezekiel are physical, and have not YET been fulfilled. These promises, by the way extend clean across present day Iraq, from the edge of the Mediterranean Sea.

THE Seed, Christ (Galatians 3, 4, etc.) will, HIMSELF, rule on this earth over a physical earthly kingdom (Revelation chs. 19, 20). No, not fulfilled by anything that could have been seen in 70 AD or thereafter.

7 posted on 10/28/2008 5:57:00 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: John Leland 1789
Well said. God's eternal covenants are just that, eternal. Articles like this one are somewhat comical. Take this dribble:

5. The future Messianic kingdom will embrace the whole of the recreated cosmos and will not experience a special manifestation that could be regarded in any sense as “Jewish” in the so-called “holy land” or anywhere else.

Ahhh yup... The physical land of Israel no longer has any significance. That's why Christ will come back and stand on the Mount of Olives. That's also why the final battle of Armageddon will be fought there. That's why Christ will reign for 1000 years there, in Jerusalem. But other than these very minor points, no significance.

8 posted on 10/28/2008 6:05:35 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
But other than these very minor points, no significance.

Logic is not allowed on preterist threads.

9 posted on 10/28/2008 6:13:11 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

That is a good summary of Theological Anti-Zionism known as Replacement.


10 posted on 10/28/2008 6:17:39 PM PDT by rmlew (NYARLATHOTEP / BIDEN'08 . If you don't believe me check out the first's wikipedia page.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
Who Really Owns the “Holy Land”?
You must like poking wasp nests with a stick too.

Might be worth sometime going over the validity or lack thereof of the concept of a "holy land" in the new covenant era. "Neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem."

Back to the shadows again....

11 posted on 10/28/2008 6:32:38 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("I've studied bible prophecy 30 years" usually means "I've never heard of Geerhardus Vos.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

I wish Satan would take out time from his busy schedule to read this. Then maybe he would understand that Israel has no significance any more and he would stop having his minions attack and torment them and their citizens.


12 posted on 10/28/2008 6:46:20 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Poison Pill
The Jews. Next question?

Funny, the Jews didn't think so. They believed that God owns it.

National Israel posseses the land today. That is a fact, and it isn't going to change any time soon. Whether that has anything to do with God's plan for His people is quite another matter.

13 posted on 10/28/2008 7:41:45 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
I wish Satan would take out time from his busy schedule to read this. Then maybe he would understand that Israel has no significance any more and he would stop having his minions attack and torment them and their citizens.

Yes, heard it before. All the way up to the Holicaust, which really happened (At least the Nazis seemed to think so, they kept pretty good records of it).

What i wonder though is if 7 million Slavs, mentally and physically infirmed, and homosexuals along with 20 million Russians (most all at least nominally gentile 'Christian') would agree with you.

14 posted on 10/28/2008 7:47:25 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord

That is a very lame response, because it nothing to do with why Israel and the Jews continue to be tormented today, over 60 years later.


15 posted on 10/28/2008 7:53:55 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: topcat54
The Jews, if they'll defend it

????????????

16 posted on 10/29/2008 12:34:31 AM PDT by onedoug ( Barracuda!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
That is a very lame response, because it nothing to do with why Israel and the Jews continue to be tormented today, over 60 years later.

No, what is really lame is presuming that the present Nation of Israel and Non-Israeli Jews are unique in their troubles.

17 posted on 10/29/2008 5:47:25 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
You really are extremely blinded here. Yes, other nations/peoples have had trouble, but NO OTHER PEOPLE/NATION has been as persistently persecuted as the Jews. Bar none. If you claim otherwise you are grossly ignorant in this matter and should not be discussing it. When the scripture says that Israel will be a "heavy stone" for all the nations, it is dead on the money. What planet DO YOU LIVE ON?@!
18 posted on 10/29/2008 6:06:05 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: rmlew
That is a good summary of Theological Anti-Zionism known as Replacement.

In the new covenant the only true Zion is the heavenly one.

"22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel." (Heb. 12)

Old Zion was only a type of the heavenly reality. Except for its typological teachings, old Zion no longer holds any theological significance for Christians.

19 posted on 10/29/2008 6:12:55 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Lee N. Field
You must like poking wasp nests with a stick too.

Same sort of programmed reaction.

Might be worth sometime going over the validity or lack thereof of the concept of a "holy land" in the new covenant era. "Neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem."

Exactly. I suspect that is why the Chalcedon reprint put the term "Holy Land" in quotes.

Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman, as well as didactic Scriptures such as Gal. 4 and Heb. 11 & 12, makes it pretty clear that there is no earthly holy land in the new covenant until the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven (Rev. 21).

20 posted on 10/29/2008 6:18:23 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
Then maybe he would understand that Israel has no significance any more and he would stop having his minions attack and torment them and their citizens.

Ah, the old Flip Wilson "the devil made me do it" defense.

Why do you give Satan so much credit? Clearly you do not understand the true nature of sin and its effect on human beings.

21 posted on 10/29/2008 6:22:13 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

No, it’s more like you clearly do not understand why there is so much hatred directed at Jews and Israel, far beyond what is normal/rational.


22 posted on 10/29/2008 6:39:34 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
No, it’s more like you clearly do not understand why there is so much hatred directed at Jews and Israel, far beyond what is normal/rational.

Oh, come now. I suspect your perspective is both too narrow and lacks objectivity due to sympathy for Zionist causes.

Just ask the victims of the Inquisition, Stalin, Pol Pot, modern communist China, if Israel has it bad. Or perhaps what the Japanese did to the Chinese and others during WWII. Or the killing in the Sudan. Or what is happening to Christians today in many places around the world.

Reminds me of the story about the man who died and went to heaven. He was greeted St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, and the man informed Peter that he wanted to gather all the inhabitants of the celestial City together and tell them of his ordeal in the great Johnstown flood, which he survived as a young man many years earlier. At first Peter resisted, but eventually he gave in to the man’s wishes after numerous requests. The day came and the man was ready to tell his story to the large crowd that had been gathered. Just before he went on stage though, Peter came to him and said, “You don’t need to be nervous, but I just wanted to remind you that Noah is in the audience.”

23 posted on 10/29/2008 7:24:33 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

Once again, you make the very fatal flaw of looking at some nation/people over a few years and comparing that to the Jews over thousands of years. FALTY THINKING!


24 posted on 10/29/2008 7:32:37 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
Once again, you make the very fatal flaw of looking at some nation/people over a few years and comparing that to the Jews over thousands of years. FALTY THINKING!

Nothing FALTY about it. I was simply confused since the original post and your original comment was about the modern state of Israel. My mistake for reading you too literally. I wasn't confusing Israel with Jewish people.

25 posted on 10/29/2008 7:36:52 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited; Lee N. Field
No, it’s more like you clearly do not understand why there is so much hatred directed at Jews and Israel, far beyond what is normal/rational.

Can you define "normal/rational" hatred? Is that a theological construct or pure whimsy?

26 posted on 10/29/2008 8:38:32 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

The Immortal Jews

If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one per cent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of; but he is heard of, has always been heard of.

He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world’s list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Mark Twain


27 posted on 10/29/2008 8:53:25 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
Mark Twain

Quaint, but obviously the views are limited by time and location. I don't think Mark was familiar with the numerous sects of Jew that inhabit parts of New York City.

28 posted on 10/29/2008 12:03:39 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: topcat54

Hnmmm... Never, ever a good thing to say related to this topic. Sounds like a serious personal issue...


29 posted on 10/29/2008 1:10:41 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited
Hnmmm... Never, ever a good thing to say related to this topic. Sounds like a serious personal issue...

The OP was very good. Did you read it?

30 posted on 10/29/2008 1:26:59 PM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited; topcat54; Elsie
You really are extremely blinded here.

i could say the same about you. CS Lewis referred to such thinking as "Bulverism" (read the essay, it is in the book God in the Dock).

Yes, other nations/peoples have had trouble, but NO OTHER PEOPLE/NATION has been as persistently persecuted as the Jews. Bar none.

Nonsense.

If you are arguing from a perspective of biblical testimony, you have a lack of evidence. The testimony of the Old and New Testament centers on the Jews. It does not concern itself with the persecution of other groups. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen for at least as long as the Jews have been in existence. It simply means that God didn't need us to be concerned about them as they weren't germane to the testimony of Christ, which is the final revelation of scripture.

If you claim otherwise you are grossly ignorant in this matter and should not be discussing it.

If you ignore the historical record, then YOU are grossly ignorant, and are not qualified to discuss the subject.

When the scripture says that Israel will be a "heavy stone" for all the nations, it is dead on the money. What planet DO YOU LIVE ON?@!

Funny, my bible says that CHRIST is the rock. What planet do YOU live on?

31 posted on 10/29/2008 8:38:10 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; topcat54; Elsie
Oh boy, so much gross ignorance! Let's take this one example: Funny, my bible says that CHRIST is the rock. What planet do YOU live on?

Like some simpleton, you go "Aha, rock and stone = comparison.” Bzzzt! NOT!

“heavy stone” is a metaphor for “BURDEN”. Israel is a vexing burden today. This article is proof.

The “Rock” metaphor used to refer to Christ means something solid, stable, a base, a platform to build on. The use of stone and rock have nothing WHATSOEVER to do with each other. Anyone with greater than a 5th grade reading level would understand the metaphorical useage in each case. YOU DID NOT! There is no use discussing a serious subject with someone who can't figure something that out for themselves. Don't bother replying, I'd rather debate this subject with a 2nd grader..

32 posted on 10/30/2008 2:23:42 AM PDT by AmericaUnited
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: AmericaUnited; Calvinist_Dark_Lord
When the scripture says that Israel will be a "heavy stone" for all the nations, it is dead on the money. What planet DO YOU LIVE ON?@!

Chapter and verse, s'il vous plait.

33 posted on 10/30/2008 7:44:26 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; AmericaUnited; Elsie
i could say the same about you. CS Lewis referred to such thinking as "Bulverism" (read the essay, it is in the book God in the Dock).

Oh, how true. That seems to be standard fair in this forum. Take for example the idea that national Israel must be in play as an end-time, eschatological player, and that folks can somehow tell the seasons by looking at modern Israel. Any argument to the contrary is met, more often than not, with questions about one’s psychological condition. It does not matter how careful your explanation from the Bible is, that you would hold such a view is prima facie evidence of some moral/psychological defect. No further argument necessary.

34 posted on 10/30/2008 8:22:56 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson