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What's wrong with Catholic voters? What's wrong with Catholics?
Catholic Culture ^ | November 5, 2008 | Phil Lawler

Posted on 11/06/2008 6:36:40 AM PST by Alex Murphy

Yesterday, according to the exit polls, between 53 and 54% of American Catholic voters cast their ballots for Barack Obama, despite the Democratic candidate's enthusiastic support for unrestricted legal abortion.

Nationwide, Protestant voters supported John McCain, by a solid 54- 45% margin. But the Catholic vote broke for Obama. Why?

Earlier this week the US Conference of Catholic Bishops released a helpful listing of the 50 American states, with the proportion of population in each state. In 7 states, Catholics make up more than 30% of the population. Obama captured all 7 of those states on Election Day. In 8 states, Catholics account for less than 5% of the population. Seven of those states swung for McCain, and the 8th, North Carolina, is still listed as "too close to call" as I write this analysis.

To be sure, America's Catholic population is heavily concentrated in states that have a liberal political tilt. But is that a coincidence? Are those states hotbeds of liberalism despite the heavy Catholic presence, or because of it?

Yes, Catholics have traditionally leaned toward the Democratic Party for historical reasons. But why have Catholic voters remained doggedly loyal to a party that has come, in the early 21st century, to be wholly allied with the "culture of death" on issues such as abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, and embryonic stem-cell research?

The support that Obama won among Catholic voters is noteworthy because in the last presidential contest, in 2004, President Bush won 52% of the Catholic vote while his opponent John Kerry-- himself a Catholic!-- managed only 46%. Catholic support for the Democratic candidate rose markedly in this campaign, even though the Democratic contender was the most militantly pro-abortion candidate ever to win a major party's presidential nomination.

This trend is all the more remarkable because over the course of the past several weeks, dozens of American bishops issued strong public statements reminding their people of their moral obligation to vote in defense of human life. Those statements varied in candor and in quality, but their overall impact was remarkable. The 2008 campaign produced a seismic change in the attitude of the American hierarchy; the bishops as a group were far more outspoken, far more explicit, than in any previous election.

And still most Catholics voted for Obama. Again: why?

Before answering that question, let me cite one more vitally important piece of polling information: Among Catholic voters who attend Mass weekly, McCain won majority support: 54- 45%. Among those who do not attend weekly Mass, the margin for Obama was an overwhelming 61- 37%. Thus Obama drew his support from inactive Catholics. And unfortunately, most American Catholics are inactive.

In an interview recorded just before Election Day, Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver explained that he had decided to take a prominent public stand on the obligations of Catholic voters because the "quieter approach to these things has not been effective." How right he was! He and many other prelates deserve the gratitude of loyal Catholics for their willingness to take a more energetic approach. This year, at last, the American bishops were clear and forthright in their teaching. Yet on Election Day it became evident that millions of American Catholics weren't listening.

Should we be surprised if Catholics ignore directives from the hierarchy? Should we be surprised that Catholics who do not attend Mass regularly-- thereby violating a precept of the Church-- ignore Church teachings on other issues as well? No, this result was predictable.

An entire generation of American Catholics has grown accustomed to dissent from Church teaching, and grown accustomed to seeing their bishops tolerate that dissent. In the 35 years since Roe v. Wade, Catholics have watched their Church leaders handle pro-abortion Catholic politicians with kid gloves, treating their moral treason as a minor annoyance rather than a public scandal. Yes, the bishops routinely denounced abortion; but at the same time they treated the public supporters of taxpayer-funded abortion with jovial deference. Puzzled lay Catholics concluded that the bishops didn't really take the issue too seriously, and the laity in turn stopped taking their bishops seriously. A few dozen statements from brave orthodox bishops in the autumn of 2008-- however clear, however compelling-- were not enough to undo a generation of damage.

Abortion is not an isolated issue. Lackadaisical American Catholics are not ignoring Church leadering on this issue alone, but on the entire range of Catholic teaching. Most Catholics skip Sunday Mass regularly. Most Catholics rarely if ever go to Confession. Most Catholics use contraceptives. Most Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. Most Catholics no longer accept Church authority on any issue. Why should we be surprised, then, if on Election Day most Catholics ignore Church teachings on their moral obligation to vote in defense of human life?

For most of my life I have lived in Massachusetts, a state whose political culture was once thoroughly dominated by active Catholics. In my book The Faithful Departed: The Collapse of Boston's Catholic Culture I explain how that Catholic culture deteriorated, as the faithful drifted away from the Church, until today the political scene in Massachusetts is dominated not by Catholics but by ex-Catholics, thoroughly hostile to the teachings of the Church.

Are Catholics in other states following the same trend? Will the next presidential election see even strong support for the "culture of death" among voters who identify themselves-- inaccurately-- as believing Catholics? Regrettably, I see the same forces that corrupted Catholicism in my native state now active all across the nation.

To repair the damage, we must recognize that the problem is not restricted to abortion, nor to defense-of-life issues. Indeed it is not, strictly speaking, a political problem. To restore the integrity of the Catholic vote, we must first restore the integrity of the Catholic faith, and rebuild the foundations of a Catholic culture.

That will be my goal-- my crusade-- in coming years. I hope and pray you'll join me.


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: phillawler
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To: frogjerk
The USCCB is also part of the problem. They do very dumb things like equating racism with abortion.

............................................

I completely agree.

Another factor is the pedophilia tragedy of the last few years. Shame and embarrassment caused a lot catholics, especially the boarder line non practicing ones to turn away.

51 posted on 11/06/2008 7:02:01 AM PST by IrishMike (Gov Sarah Palin - Gun control is hitting what you shoot at)
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To: P8riot
Believe me, the 'nominal Catholics' aren't going to confession. They don't even go to Mass.

And the Church figured out the 'go back and do it again' dodge centuries ago. It's called the sin of presumption (presuming on God's mercy) and it is a mortal sin, so you just dig yourself in a deeper hole that way.

52 posted on 11/06/2008 7:02:10 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Enosh

Sorry, but I’m a Papist.


53 posted on 11/06/2008 7:02:13 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: Enosh
Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Please revoke my last statement to you FRiend!
54 posted on 11/06/2008 7:03:26 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: Alex Murphy
What's wrong with Catholics?

Less than 50% of "Catholics" attend Mass every Sunday.

55 posted on 11/06/2008 7:06:16 AM PST by wideawake (Why is it that those who like to be called Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Alex Murphy

I noticed several weeks ago, during the prolife week when the homilies are to be about the pro life issues, that the church wasn’t as full as normal. I started wondering if the pro choice dem catholics stay home every year during this week. It was an excellant homily.


56 posted on 11/06/2008 7:06:32 AM PST by Lets Be Frank
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To: Alex Murphy
It's not just the 'inactive' Catholics-- How long do you think the Republican party can trot out the abortion issue every 4 years while doing nothing effective about it?

Something 'effective' means a articulating a way to rein in the courts, possibly threatening the SOB's with arrest for abuse of power and misappropriation of funds when they legislate from the bench.

Any "pro-life" candidate who doesn't have a plan to deal with the courts is a sham and a fraud, which I think a lot of people have finally figured out.

Someone will have to be willing to call their bluff regarding Judicial Supremacy or not. And if not, then kiss goodbye to the Republic.

57 posted on 11/06/2008 7:06:54 AM PST by pierrem15 (Charles Martel: past and future of France)
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To: Enosh; Alex Murphy
“....Among Catholic voters who attend Mass weekly, McCain won majority support: 54- 45%.”

Catholics aren't an ethnicity. Catholics are people in communion with the Catholic church. Thank you Alex Murphy. Your posts remind me every time why I couldn't become a Protestant.

58 posted on 11/06/2008 7:06:57 AM PST by Varda
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To: IrishMike
Another factor is the pedophilia tragedy of the last few years. Shame and embarrassment caused a lot catholics, especially the boarder line non practicing ones to turn away.

I think this was all caused by changing the Liturgy and the "Spirit of Vatican II" - where communists/socialists/liberals used the opening of Vatican II as an excuse to cause Mass heresy. God will allow horrible things to happen in order to bring His people back to the truth.

59 posted on 11/06/2008 7:07:00 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: Alex Murphy
I expect that most of the obama "christians" are CINO's.

I personally know two Southern Baptist missionary kids (40+ yr olds) who voted for Obama. Neither would respond with anything resembling logic when I asked about the abortion vs. Bible teachings issue.

60 posted on 11/06/2008 7:07:45 AM PST by DesertSapper (God, Family, Country . . . . . . . . . . and dead terrorists!!!)
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To: pillut48
Those ‘pick and choose Church policy’ Catholics like Joe Biden and John Kerry, etc. should be excommunicated. Period.

I was disgusted at Mass last Sunday that there was not a word in the homily regarding the election. We got a quick mumbled petition about "voting with an informed conscience" and that's it. That said, I honestly do think that the FOCA is going to propel the Church to act on the apostates in the ranks. I do believe public excommunications will happen.

61 posted on 11/06/2008 7:07:56 AM PST by workerbee (If you vote for Democrats, you are engaging in UnAmerican Activity.)
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To: Lets Be Frank
I noticed several weeks ago, during the prolife week when the homilies are to be about the pro life issues, that the church wasn’t as full as normal. I started wondering if the pro choice dem catholics stay home every year during this week. It was an excellant homily.

We had a banner posted across the entrance to our Church announcing this but I did not hear any Homily about pro-life. I need to speak with the Monsignor and Bishop.

62 posted on 11/06/2008 7:09:17 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: workerbee
I was disgusted at Mass last Sunday that there was not a word in the homily regarding the election. We got a quick mumbled petition about "voting with an informed conscience" and that's it. That said, I honestly do think that the FOCA is going to propel the Church to act on the apostates in the ranks. I do believe public excommunications will happen.

Same here although I do not wish anyone to be excommunicated. God wills not the death of any sinner but they are given free will to accept or not.

63 posted on 11/06/2008 7:11:31 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: Alex Murphy
Are those states hotbeds of liberalism despite the heavy Catholic presence, or because of it?

Largely because of it. The Catholic Church has been very supportive of socialist schemes, including unions that are given huge power by government. And of course, Catholics who marry early, don't use contraceptives (or abortion), and have lots of children tend to be heavy users of the socialist schemes, having rendered themselves unable to support their families without government/taxpayer handouts. I don't think you'll find a lot of "believing Catholics" voting against the various universal health care proposals. "Free health insurance from the government for my 7 kids? Awesome, of course I'll vote for the candidate promising that!"

64 posted on 11/06/2008 7:11:49 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Alex Murphy

What’s wrong with Catholic voters? What’s wrong with Catholics?

They choose to SIN(as do many others who also call themselves “Christian”). ;-(


65 posted on 11/06/2008 7:12:19 AM PST by SumProVita ("Cogito ergo sum pro vita." .....updated Descartes)
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To: frogjerk

I don’t “wish” it either, but excommunication is something they choose with their actions already, not something imposed on them by the Church.


66 posted on 11/06/2008 7:13:50 AM PST by workerbee (If you vote for Democrats, you are engaging in UnAmerican Activity.)
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To: Angry_White_Man_Syndrome
I do not see why Kerry, Biden, and Pelose have not been publicly excommunicated.

Because they support the socialist programs and non-eneforcement of immigration laws that the Church approves of.

67 posted on 11/06/2008 7:13:50 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: pierrem15

George W. Bush has been staunch in his pro-life support. He banned federal tax dollars being used for embryonic stem cell research. He tried hard to save Terri Schiavo along with other politicians though that turned out tragic. He has always spoken on the sanctity of life. More so than any Catholic politician I can think of.


68 posted on 11/06/2008 7:14:18 AM PST by NoKoolAidforMe ("Victory at all costs...for without true victory, there is no survival." Winston Churchill)
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To: Alex Murphy
Yes those states are a hot bed of liberalism, and most are illegal alien sanctuary cradle to grave welfare states to boot.

Even the Catholic church acts as a sanctuary for these illegals, and the Catholic church here in the U.S. has taken a weak stance on abortion.

Those are two reasons why I'm a non-practicing Catholic.

69 posted on 11/06/2008 7:16:37 AM PST by 2CAVTrooper (0bama will NEVER be my President)
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To: pierrem15

You make a good point. I had a discussion with younger family members who were on the fence about voting for McCain or Obama. Their response to my pro-life argument was that abortion would be legal in four years regardless of whether Obama or McCain was president. My argument about possibly moving the Supreme Court to the right with a McCain win fell on deaf ears.

They have a point. The Republican party has had ending abortion as a plank in it’s platform for decades, yet it’s no closer to being outlawed than it ever was. I think that’s part of the reason why the pro-life argument doesn’t resonate anymore with a lot of people, especially young people. They see lotsa talk before every election, but little action afterwards.


70 posted on 11/06/2008 7:16:45 AM PST by LadyNavyVet (Be a monthly donor.)
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To: workerbee
I don’t “wish” it either, but excommunication is something they choose with their actions already, not something imposed on them by the Church.

Agreed, they excommunicate themselves.

71 posted on 11/06/2008 7:16:53 AM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: IrishCatholic
You nailed it. It is like a parent that never teaches or disciplines their children and suddenly can’t understand why their teenager is out of control and won’t listen. The Bishops need to start over and teach and lead or this won’t change.

I've been to this rodeo before. I used to be a < shudder > Episcopalian, and I saw where celebrity-worship and political expediency on the part of the leadership takes a church.

The Catholics are the best group (because the best organized) to spearhead a Christian revival. If the weak-kneed American bishops will just retire and/or get out of the way so that BXVI and his new appointments can kick posterior and take names (in the nicest way of course) then we can get started.

72 posted on 11/06/2008 7:21:47 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: frogjerk
"Nolo mortem peccatoris."

We gotta remember that, and also to pray for them.

73 posted on 11/06/2008 7:23:24 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse - TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: NoKoolAidforMe

” He banned federal tax dollars being used for embryonic stem cell research.”

Where do people get this idea? GW was the first president to authorize federal funds for embryonic stem cell research. There was no federal funding before him (Clinton allowed embryonic research but stipulated no federal funds).

Because there was no economic advantage to embryonic research there was very little of it. Bush’s action opened the flood gates of embryonic research. What you fund, you get more of.


74 posted on 11/06/2008 7:26:23 AM PST by Varda
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To: Alex Murphy

If people don’t accept the real Presence, they are not Catholics, and should quit identifying themselves as such.
The Church needs to spend more effort on instruction in the heterodox Catechism and purge itself of priests whose enthusiasms are for social or political causes rather than the Faith.


75 posted on 11/06/2008 7:28:11 AM PST by steve8714 (Keep your hands off my thermostat!)
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To: steve8714

Too smart by half; “heterodox” should be “orthodox”.


76 posted on 11/06/2008 7:29:07 AM PST by steve8714 (Keep your hands off my thermostat!)
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To: Alex Murphy
I think a good bit of the problem is in the "social justice" area, because most churches have "social justice" ministries which are all for helping out all the immigrants, poor, sickly, etc., and I think they believe that helping the underdog is what Jesus wants them to do, which is correct, but not as "government policy" because that's socialism, and they don't know about papal encyclicals against "socialism" because no one tells them. They think they should vote democratic because the democrats are for helping out the poor. They fail to distinguish between "individual responsibility" and "group" responsibility. The "community" always seems to be at the foremost of their thinking. That's sort of a disconnect.

Even though many would vote against abortion backers, they diminish the issue in favor of helping out the poor.

History hasn't been taught in this country for a long, long time, clearly.

77 posted on 11/06/2008 7:31:17 AM PST by vharlow (http://www.harlowhome.com)
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To: Alex Murphy
What about the 45% of Mass attending Catholics that voted for Obama?

Reason: Too many Catholic churches and too many Catholic schools worship Marxist “social justice” instead of God.

So?...When a Marxist presidential candidate comes along is it any wonder that 45% of Mass attending Catholics think he is God?

78 posted on 11/06/2008 7:31:52 AM PST by wintertime
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To: 2CAVTrooper

The Church’s stance on abortion is less weak than it is muddled by the Bernardinites in power positions. I want to puke every time I hear capital punishment mentioned with abortion and euthanasia.


79 posted on 11/06/2008 7:31:58 AM PST by steve8714 (Keep your hands off my thermostat!)
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To: P8riot

I doubt if many of the Catholics that voted for Obama ever go to confession. I know lots of good Catholics, who do go to Mass every Sunday and are pro-life who do not believe that you must go to Confession at least once a year. They tell me I’m wrong that you only need to go if you have committed a mortal sin.


80 posted on 11/06/2008 7:32:28 AM PST by Barb4Bush (I'll like voting for McCain a lot better now that Sarah is on the ticket.)
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To: NoKoolAidforMe; LadyNavyVet
Bush did more than most: but the abortion issue is part of a much bigger problem regarding the SCOTUS' ludicrous claims to a despotic and irrational authority over Constitutional interpretation.

Unless an effective check is found to that claim, we're out of luck.

We need a conservative candidate who can clearly and authoritatively outline the threat this poses to the Republic AND who can outline a set of steps to be taken to rein-in the courts if they don't get the hint.

Anything less is a sham.

81 posted on 11/06/2008 7:35:56 AM PST by pierrem15 (Charles Martel: past and future of France)
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To: Alex Murphy

“Abortion is not an isolated issue. Lackadaisical American Catholics are not ignoring Church leadering on this issue alone, but on the entire range of Catholic teaching. Most Catholics skip Sunday Mass regularly. Most Catholics rarely if ever go to Confession. Most Catholics use contraceptives. Most Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. Most Catholics no longer accept Church authority on any issue.”

I am a Catholic, and would never consider voting for a baby killer. I see the problem is with the Church itself. When Catholics see Catholic politicians voting for infanticide, and the Church does nothing to punish them, such as allowing them to receive Holy Communion, and not excommunicating them, many feel like it must not be that big a deal.


82 posted on 11/06/2008 7:40:06 AM PST by murron (Proud Marine Mom)
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To: Alex Murphy
There are two main reasons, somewhat interconnected.

First, while it is true that the bishops, pretty much across the board, are on public record as pro-life (and many, of course, go far beyond the minimum in this), it is also true that many of them share a lot of the other aspects of the "progressive" social agenda of the Democrats. They are often in lock-step with the liberal notions of the "War on Poverty," and feel it is a matter of justice for the poor that society spend large sums on welfare programs, misguided education schemes and other hand-outs in an effort to alleviate poverty. In this, I believe most of them mean well, even if they are misapplying the words of Christ with regard to the poor. They are also ignoring the repeated observations of St. Paul, especially in 2 Thessalonians, that honest work, an avoidance of indolence and "sponging" off of others are to be avoided at all costs. The bishops also seem to be in favor of an excessive catering to open-ended immigration and the furtherance of languages other than English in this country, also on well-meaning, but misguided, notions of fairness and "justice."

All of these positions, of course, are part and parcel of the Democratic agenda. Their motivation is purely cynical and based on raw political expediency: pandering to the poor and downtrodden guarantees their votes (and keeping them in poverty, as is the norm here, makes their votes permanent as long as the Dems hide their own nefariousness in keeping them poor). I think the bishops and other clergy, for the most part, are aware of the less than pristine motives involved, but they have made strange bedfellows with the Dems because of the common bottom-line they have on these issues.

Lately, however, the bishops are distancing themselves from the Democrats, mostly over the recurring public scandal of prominent pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians receiving communion, but also, I think, because they see that Obama, Pelosi and company are way too liberal even for them, and that these people are inclined to start serious restrictions on what Christians can and cannot say in the public forum. I think that Catholic leadership will be less and less concerned about rocking the boat in fear of the tax exemption issue when they see the handwriting is on the wall regarding the Church even staying "above ground" over the next few years.

Meanwhile, the average Catholic layman, when it comes to Christian guidance for voting purposes, has suffered from the outflow of all of the above, plus a general collapse of catechetical instruction throughout the country (really, the whole western world) over the last 40+ years. It is a common assumption that mandatory, confiscatory taxation is the "Christian" way to ensure the corporal works of mercy are dealt with, rather than from a Christian charity of the heart. That our prevalent methods lead to generational unemployment, poverty, educational malfeasance and the indolence that St. Paul calls disgraceful either does not occur to them, or they feel that "life changes over time," and this is just how we do things, now.

Between the schizophrenic schmoozing of the clergy with the Democrats over social policies and the lack of their leadership of the laity (both regarding politics directly and through their godawful administration of Catholic catechetics over the last two generations), the current political disconnect of Catholic voters with the official teachings of their Church shouldn't really surprise anyone. But the climate is slowly changing.

This past election cycle has shown the beginnings of real impatience with hard-core pro-abort politicians on the part of Catholic bishops. This is a good first step, and the likelihood that the politicians affected will not take this kindly will only accelerate the process of alienation between the bishops and apostate pols. The bishops are beginning to realize that they have been played for suckers by the Democrats for decades, and with the first instance of calling them to order over the Communion issue, the Dems are turning on them with bared fangs. When they start imposing speech restrictions on Christians (as is already happening in Canada), the divorce will be complete. Plus, Benedict is known to be not pleased with the cuddling going on between Catholic clergy and the extreme Left. Personally, I suspect a few well-placed phone calls on his part to the bishops started the small avalanche of public chiding of the likes of Pelosi, Biden, Milkulski, et al with respect to receiving Communion. Stronger measures, including public excommunication (they are already excommunicated by the force of their own actions, but "making it look official" has its benefits) of these miscreants will be in the offing.

The Catholic voter will see this and make the proper connections, particularly as catechetics improves, and the trends for that are slowly taking shape. The next election cycle or two will start to show some changes.

But, there is another consideration about "Catholic" voting trends to consider. Pollsters usually just ask if the person is "Catholic" or not. It is no secret that most American Catholics do not really practice their Faith. Seven out of ten, nationally, do not even attend Mass each Sunday, eight-in-ten of childbearing years contracept. And so forth. Take them out of the equation, and you will find that the "faithful catholic" voter is much less inclined to vote for liberal Democrats. This has always been true.

It will take some time to see real changes in the voting patterns of all Catholics, including (and especially) the nominal ones. But this will happen over time. Twenty years from now, if we're still allowed to vote at all, the current trends will be seen for the relative short-term anomaly that they are.

83 posted on 11/06/2008 7:43:31 AM PST by magisterium
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To: Barb4Bush
Get in line in that processional
Step into that small confessional
There, the guy who's got religion'll
Tell you if your sin's original

If it is, try playin' it safer
Drink the wine and chew the wafer
Two, four, six, eight
Time to transubstantiate

So get down upon your knees
Fiddle with your rosaries
Bow your head with great respect
And genuflect, genuflect, genuflect

Tom Lehrer

84 posted on 11/06/2008 7:49:07 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: LadyNavyVet
We get this every cr@p every single election, as the media lumps religious Catholics with those who use the church for baptism, marriage and burial only,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So?...Why is the Catholic Church allowing non-observant Catholics use their churches for these celebrations?

I have been too far too many **extravagant** Catholic weddings where the entire congregation and the PRIEST has known the the couple have been living openly together even up to the night before the wedding!!!!

Maybe,....These beautiful ceremonies should be reserved for the faithful and those for the non-faithful should be far more quiet. Perhaps for those couples living openly together there should be pressured from the families, from the congregation, and from the priest for quiet and expeditious marriage in the church rectory.

If Joe Biden were to die tonight, I bet the farm that next week there would be a full and gorgeous funeral procession in the most prominent Wilmington Catholic Church. I bet the bishop would even perform the Mass.

When is the Catholic hierarchy going to say:

“No the baptism will be done in the rectory or your home.”

“No, I advise that you plan a marriage promptly. We will have the ceremony in the rectory office.”

“No, your husband has not attended Mass in 35 years. We will have a prayer service and ( possibly a small quiet Mass for the immediate family) at the funeral home with prayer at the grave site.”

As a non-Catholic this is why I ask the questions that you think are human excrement. Honestly, I don't get it. Why are religious Catholics allowing non-observant Catholic get away with this? I don't get it. I **really** don't get it. And you shouldn't be surprised when non-Catholics make pointed observations about it.

85 posted on 11/06/2008 7:49:25 AM PST by wintertime
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To: pierrem15

I agree that Bush did a lot more than most. And you’re absolutely right about the Court. However, the majority of presidents during the time that Court has been claiming overarching powers have been Republican, which gets us back to the main problem. The effective check on that claim has to come from conservatives clearly and effectively teaching the people that “checks and balances” doesn’t mean the courts always have the last word. And we haven’t had a leader who can articulate conservatism since Reagan.

And, as we found out once again this election, when the voters are offered socialism vs. socilaism-lite, they will pick the real thing every time.


86 posted on 11/06/2008 7:50:41 AM PST by LadyNavyVet (Be a monthly donor.)
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To: steve8714

“The Church’s stance on abortion is less weak than it is muddled by the Bernardinites in power positions.”

Bernardinites?

Bernard Law’s people?


87 posted on 11/06/2008 7:52:22 AM PST by 2CAVTrooper
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To: PGR88

Bingo; It is all about social justice ie (communism).


88 posted on 11/06/2008 7:52:40 AM PST by mtairycitizen
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To: magisterium
They are often in lock-step with the liberal notions of the "War on Poverty," and feel it is a matter of justice for the poor that society spend large sums on welfare programs, misguided education schemes and other hand-outs in an effort to alleviate poverty. In this, I believe most of them mean well, even if they are misapplying the words of Christ with regard to the poor. They are also ignoring the repeated observations of St. Paul, especially in 2 Thessalonians, that honest work, an avoidance of indolence and "sponging" off of others are to be avoided at all costs. The bishops also seem to be in favor of an excessive catering to open-ended immigration and the furtherance of languages other than English in this country, also on well-meaning, but misguided, notions of fairness and "justice."

If the bishops and priest worship Karl Marx before God, it is any wonder that Catholics are confused? When a Marxist candidate comes along the followers think his is God and vote for him.

The good intentions of the bishops and priests are the paving stones on the road to a tyrannous hell.

89 posted on 11/06/2008 7:54:34 AM PST by wintertime
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To: GovernmentShrinker
Largely because of it. The Catholic Church has been very supportive of socialist schemes, including unions that are given huge power by government. And of course, Catholics who marry early, don't use contraceptives (or abortion), and have lots of children tend to be heavy users of the socialist schemes, having rendered themselves unable to support their families without government/taxpayer handouts. I don't think you'll find a lot of “believing Catholics” voting against the various universal health care proposals. “Free health insurance from the government for my 7 kids? Awesome, of course I'll vote for the candidate promising that!”

That's funny, all the large Catholic families I know are well off. They are not down collecting WIC or food stamps. Most of them are very successful and donate with generousity. It is the CINO’s that use birth control and do not follow the teachings of the church which are polluting and destroying the Church from within.

90 posted on 11/06/2008 7:56:39 AM PST by Angry_White_Man_Syndrome (I'm Okies love Dubya 2's "other half")
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To: magisterium
...while it is true that the bishops, pretty much across the board, are on public record as pro-life (and many, of course, go far beyond the minimum in this), it is also true that many of them share a lot of the other aspects of the "progressive" social agenda of the Democrats.

Your entire post was an excellent read, and IMO an acceurate assessment of the state of the (American) Catholic Church in regards to politics. Thank you for pinging me to it!

But, there is another consideration about "Catholic" voting trends to consider. Pollsters usually just ask if the person is "Catholic" or not. It is no secret that most American Catholics do not really practice their Faith. Seven out of ten, nationally, do not even attend Mass each Sunday, eight-in-ten of childbearing years contracept. And so forth. Take them out of the equation, and you will find that the "faithful catholic" voter is much less inclined to vote for liberal Democrats. This has always been true.

The exit polls are in agreement. Check out the numbers.

91 posted on 11/06/2008 8:03:35 AM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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To: wintertime

Remember the Catholic Bishops were very late to the pro-life movement.Cardinal Egan got publicity for’some’of his pro-life statements this year BUT one of the first actions of Cardinal Egan in the NY archdiocese was to force Father Pavone to leave NY.


92 posted on 11/06/2008 8:06:07 AM PST by ardara
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To: 2CAVTrooper

Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago


93 posted on 11/06/2008 8:09:33 AM PST by steve8714 (Keep your hands off my thermostat!)
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To: Alex Murphy
What's wrong with Catholics?

Sin.

94 posted on 11/06/2008 8:14:17 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: wintertime
They don't "worship" Karl Marx. They worship Christ, and they think that they are encouraging the means to His social ends. That they are largely wrong is obvious to faithful Catholics, but it is hardly fair to accuse them of Marxism. Are there a few who have some inclinations approaching that? Probably. But very few. And most of those bishops are approaching retirement age. Their mandatory applications for retirement will be cheerfully accepted by Benedict, you may be sure. Most bishops are merely "progressive," which, while I certainly don't hold to that, either, is hardly a persuasion that is tantamount to full-blown Communism. C'mon! There are "gradations" to these political slants, you know!

In any event, things are changing. Still too slowly, believe it or not, for my personal tastes, but recent events indicate that they are changing more quickly than most of us would have supposed even two or three years ago.

95 posted on 11/06/2008 8:15:19 AM PST by magisterium
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To: IrishMike

The scandal of bishops not using discipline to teach what the Church believes about baby butchery will dwarf the homosexualist priest scandal. Around 50 million dead and not one public announcement confirming by name Catholic pols who not only help the slaughter along but claim that it’s cool to do so per church teaching are excommunicated for their odious actions. I really don’t know what is going on with that, and why these bishops get away with it, but I reckon you can only bend so far to avoid a schism before your in one anyhow.

Freegards


96 posted on 11/06/2008 8:17:23 AM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
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To: P8riot

A childish ditty...bravely posted.


97 posted on 11/06/2008 8:18:19 AM PST by magisterium
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To: frogjerk

It is has been refreshing moving into this parish from out of state. Our old church (It was tiny) had a liberal priest who never spoke of pro life issues. This church they speak often about it.


98 posted on 11/06/2008 8:21:09 AM PST by Lets Be Frank
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To: murron

That is it exactly. Teaching without discipline, especially to a group as badly taught as US Cartholics have been for generations, is doomed to fail.

Freegards


99 posted on 11/06/2008 8:22:26 AM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
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To: P8riot

Although I’ve never heard it before, by the time you’d gotten to “Two Four Six Eight Time to Transubstantiate” I was thinking to myself “this sounds a lot like Tom Lehrer” - and I was right!


100 posted on 11/06/2008 8:22:49 AM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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