USCCB: Church should oppose FOCA 'early and often,' Niederauer (Pelosi's Archbishop) says

Nat CatholicReporter ^ | Nov 11, 2008 13:30pm | JOHN L. ALLEN JR.

[Salvation]

USCCB: Church should oppose FOCA 'early and often,' Niederauer says

Posted on Nov 11, 2008 13:30pm CST.
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By JOHN L. ALLEN JR.
Baltimore

Facing President-elect Barak Obama’s pledge to sign the Freedom of Choice Act, which would bar legal restrictions on abortion at the state and federal level, Archbishop George Niederauer of San Francisco today said that the Catholic church needs to make the case against the measure “early and often, both with members of congress and with the new administration.”

Speaking with reporters during the Nov. 10-13 meeting of the U.S. bishops in Baltimore, Niederauer suggested that it would be a mistake to interpret Obama’s victory as an expression of popular support for the Freedom of Choice Act, known as FOCA.

Niederauer heads the communications committee for the U.S. bishops’ conference.

“If you look at exit polls on election day, you will not find very many people who came out of the polling place and said their vote for either candidate was based on FOCA,” Niederauer said. “Many wouldn’t know what it is.”

Asked what the church should do about Catholic legislators who support FOCA, Niederauer said that the bishops agree on the diagnosis – that such a vote amounts to cooperation in evil – but may not be able to reach a common policy on the hot-button question of whether to deny communion to pro-choice politicians.

“We have a very strong statement made in 2004,” he said. “It’s still in place. It says we should not give a platform [to pro-choice politicians], we shouldn’t give them awards or feature them. But with regard to Holy Communion, it is left up to the pastoral sensitivity and responsibility of individual bishops to interact with those office-holders in their own diocese.”

“As person differs from person,” Niederauer said, “perhaps the best approach may be one thing for one person, another for another.”

The Freedom of Choice Act was introduced in the House and Senate in 2004, but to date has not made it beyond the committee stage. Estimates are that states currently have an aggregate number of 300 restrictions on abortion which would be abolished by FOCA, inclduing late term abortion bans, parental consent requirements and parental notification laws.

The web site of Barak Obama’s presidential campaign includes a January 2008 statement from Obama issued on the anniversary of the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision: “When anti-choice protesters blocked the opening of an Illinois Planned Parenthood clinic in a community where affordable health care is in short supply, I was the only candidate for president who spoke out against it,” Obama said. “And I will continue to defend this right by passing the Freedom of Choice Act as president.”

[Salvation]

Highlighting mine.

Comments, anyone?

[Salvation]

Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

[Quix]

“MAKE THE CASE WITH”

???????????????????????????????????????

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TELL THE LEGISLATORS . . . GOD SAYS THIS.

THEY COMPLY, OR OUT OF THE CHURCH FORCABLY, IMMEDIATELY AND WHOLESALE at whatever risk to their Salvation.

WHAT’S THIS ‘POLITICING’ to gain favor of man in man’s arena man’s ways—the ways of the flesh—vs insisting that legislators submit to a higher law and THE AUTHORITY OF ALMIGHTY GOD.

Otherwise, the religious hierarchy is just turning itself into yet another lobbying group on a par with those lobbying for free condoms.

CRAZY!

And, to my mind, rather UNBiblical.

Give the legislators XX days to forcefully legislate PREVENTION OF A SINGLE ADDITIONAL INFANT’S MURDER

OR ELSE!

NO DISCUSSION.

NO LOBBYING.

NO POLITICING.

NO INTELLECTUAL GAMES between religious vs secular POLITICIANS!

Sheesh.

This is not the RC’s standing Biblically tall, imho.

[Salvation]

Bishops statements and FOCA articles highlighted.

Pray for LIFE!

USCCB: Church should oppose FOCA 'early and often,' Niederauer (Pelosi's Archbishop) says

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[iowamark]

Asked what the church should do about Catholic legislators who support FOCA, Niederauer said that the bishops agree on the diagnosis – that such a vote amounts to cooperation in evil – but may not be able to reach a common policy on the hot-button question of whether to deny communion to pro-choice politicians.

They know what needs to be done. The only question is whether they have the courage to do it.

[incredulous joe]

If the GOP can not hold the remaining seats that are still unaccounted for could any Dem be counted on to assist in blocking this; Pryor or Byrd??

Sadly, I’m certain that the help would need to come from outside the Catholic faith. Catholic senators with Democrat affiliation could not be counted on and should be publicly excommunicated from the Church should this Amendment pass.

[Tax-chick]

I agree.

It should be obvious by now that the conciliatory, “Please be reasonable ...,” “We know your heart’s in the right place ...,” “Don’t want to overreact ...” approach is not working. Charitably, I’ll say it was reasonable to give it a try, but continuing to pursue a clearly failed policy is not rational.

St. Paul says of an unrepentant sinner, “I delivered him up to Satan for the destruction of his flesh” in the hope of saving his soul.

[jo kus]

THEY COMPLY, OR OUT OF THE CHURCH FORCABLY, IMMEDIATELY AND WHOLESALE at whatever risk to their Salvation.

WHAT’S THIS ‘POLITICING’ to gain favor of man in man’s arena man’s ways—the ways of the flesh—vs insisting that legislators submit to a higher law and THE AUTHORITY OF ALMIGHTY GOD.

Otherwise, the religious hierarchy is just turning itself into yet another lobbying group on a par with those lobbying for free condoms.

Quix,

While I can understand your angst against our "country" allowing such things, is this attitude you have Biblical? Where do we find St. Paul making such statements against Roman law, which ALSO allowed people to leave their infants to die to exposure if they didn't want them? Or better, slavery? Does Paul speak as such against it?

I think we have to turn to our "Tradition" to get a good idea of what the early Church practiced when Catholics became politicians and could actually help to determine policy. Not sure when that first happened, but by 325 there must have been some Catholic politicians at the latest. I haven't done an extensive analysis on what the Bishops did in these situations, but I am aware of some bishops, such as St. Ambrose, who threatened to excommunicate the EMPEROR HIMSELF for his part in the mass murder of innocents in Greece in the mid-300's.(and the emperor repented - such was the importance of faith and religion in his life...) Clearly, Ambrose was a bishop with guts!!

I think the Bible does have something to say against scandal - such as Paul in 1 Cor 5 and the expulsion of the one causing scandal. But what is Paul's attitude on WHY? To protect the community, true, but ALSO, to save the one in sin. I am not sure I see that attitude in your post.

I am not sure what the ultimate answer will be on this. It is frustrating to see the Catholic bishops often more interested in preserving their public image to managing and teaching the flock about their eternal destiny. I do agree that the Bishops should be doing more. But this nation is not a theocracy (the constitution prevents such thinking), so in essence, we ARE a "lobbying group", whether we like it or not. "True" Christians are more a minority. Are WE evangelizing our more nominal brothers and sisters? Probably not. Otherwise, so many Christians would not have voted for a such an avid supporter of murdering infants in the womb.

And certainly, we SHOULD care about the wayward politician's eternal destiny. I think the Bishop of such people as Bidden and Pelosi should be making more efforts to privately, and if necessary, publically, convincing and chastising and evangelizing them on the Church's stand and how they are scandalizing the public with their dissent towards God's teachings on life.

Regards

[Desdemona]

Eminences and Excellencies,

The political atmosphere of 15th-16th century Europe is over. Excommunication is not overused now and has not been for the last 400 years. The excuse that there was a time when formal excommunication was done politically and for the wrong reasons does not apply. This is heresy at it's purist form. You can't negotiate with bullies, liturgists and terrorists. The "We really, really, really, really, really mean it" is not working. Brute force is about all they understand.

To quote an American ad campaign: JUST DO IT. Your flock will respect the decision. Don't worry about the publicity. There will still be plenty of donors. Desdemona

[Ransomed]

Pelousey to bishop:”I’ve considered your position and think you are wrong. Abortion is a complex issue, and my actions regarding abortion are perfectly compatable with Church teaching, and I will continue to tell this to anybody that will listen. And I think your hat looks stupid. Now gimme my wafer.”

Wasn’t there supposed to be a meeting were the bishop was going to sit down with the madame speaker? Does anybody know if that happened?

Freegards

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful response.

imho . . . and on the other hand with different fingers . . .

1. I don't believe Believers LEADERS particularly are routinely called, per se, primarily to be political lackys in a flesh driven system of buying and selling influence . . . . lobbying . . .

2. Christians and particularly Christian leaders ARE CALLED to state forthrightly THE TRUTHS OF THE GOSPEL . . . GOD'S STANDARDS AND GOD'S PRIORITIES--TO FORCEFULLY [AND LOVINGLY] DELCARE THEM. Sometimes LOVINGLY = STERNLY--WITH CONSEQUENCES.

3. Paul did not hesitate to declare what should be done with various folks who'd crossed various morality lines. We have his declarations, judgments and sentencing in Holy Scripture.

4. What RC Bishop has publicly on CNN consigned what politician to satan for the destruction of the politician's flesh that his soul might be saved? What are they waiting for--150 or 500 million murdered infants? Is THAT the trip-line for decisive courageous Christian declarations from the bureaucratic hierarchy? Or maybe the RC edifice is waiting for the beautiful cathedrals to be buried in baby skulls in garbage bags before their Bishops scrounge some cajones?

5. What's the criteria for stern spiritual declarative action?

6. Playing WIMPY VERBAL FOOTSIE with demonized globalist traitorous legislators is not my idea of PREACHING, MODELING, DECLARING THE GOSPEL to any significant degree. What RESULT do you REALLY, TRULY, ACTUALLY EXPECT from such verbal mutual masturbation exchanges?

7. REDUCED to being lobbyists? LEFT ONLY WITH being lobbists?

8. I THINK !!!!!!!NOT!!!!!!!

9. BELIEVERS IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ARE PART OF HIS OVERCOMING, ALL POWERFUL, SOON TO UTTERLY REIGN WITH HIM . . . BODY.

10. HE HAS SET THE STANDARD!
WE ARE TO DECLARE IT!
WE ARE TO MODEL IT!
WE ARE TO INSIST ON IT!
[particularly in fitting ways and contexts--
WHICH AS PAUL MODELED--INCLUDES FIERCELY]
WE ARE TO CHALLENGE A HELL-BOUND WORLD
TO RISE TO AND ADHERE TO CHRIST'S STANDARD!
On occasion, we are to even administer judgment and discipline!
WE ARE CERTAINLY
TO DECLARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF REBELLION AGAINST GOD!
WE ARE CERTAINLY TO DECLARE THE FIRES OF HELL
AWAIT THOSE IN REBELLION, DEFIANCE AGAINST GOD!
And we are wise to make such declarations vivid, indeed!
WE ARE WISE TO MAKE THEM AS FORCEFUL AS POSSIBLE!
Not only for the legislators and their souls . . .
BUT FOR THE WATCHING ONLOOKERS
And the lukewarm "Christian" wimps on the sidelines
in the hopes that THEY WILL TAKE HEED AND ALSO AVOID
the fires of hell they keep dancing toward
and pretending it's a fun date-night at the latest cute horror movie.

11. GOD HAVE MERCY! This is not a friendly debating society. This is the END TIMES AND A WORLD IS HEADED TOWARD HELL!

12. This is not Sunday Tea for the political Billdo's, lobbyists and their hangers-on to get the message at--that endless word tosses can go on until hell freezes over.

13. What ARE the Bishops waiting for? Ambrose to rise from the dead and show them how? Their order for brass spheres has been delayed by a FedEx pilot's strike? What?

14. Oh, right. The BUREAUCRACY is issuing the orders instead of Holy Spirit. Should have thought of that earlier. My error.

15. Wellll, dear Bishops, poke this in your cap: YOU'D BEST STAND FORTHRIGHTLY AND FORCEFULLY DECLARATIVELY ON THE SIDE OF GOD, RIGHTEOUSNESS, LIFE AND ETERNAL LIFE ON THESE ISSUES AND THAT POST HASTE--ELSE YOU WILL BE ON THE SAME INCREASINGLY STEEP SLIPPERY SLOPE TO HELL THE SECULAR POLITICIANS ARE ON. I suspect you have less than 3 months to stand up and be counted. If you have not excommunicated an infanticizing politician by then, then you'd likely best check to see if God has not excommunicated you from HIS Book of Life.

16. Get your act together group. The pace is picking up.

17. For those who think I'm being overly whatever . . . If my sense in my spirit is any clue, I'm hardly starting to warm-up . . . yet. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

[Quix]

AMEN!

You’ll likely note I used that Scripture in my rant above before I read your post.

Thanks.

[Quix]

infantiCIDing politician . . .

They are likely infanticizing from the moment they decide to be politicians.

[Alex Murphy]

"But with regard to Holy Communion, it is left up to the pastoral sensitivity and responsibility of individual bishops to interact with those office-holders in their own diocese." "As person differs from person,” Niederauer said, “perhaps the best approach may be one thing for one person, another for another.”

Comments, anyone?

Niederauer, huh?

Niederauer Installed as Archbishop (...."a gay man can meet the criteria of Vatican document...)
San Fran. Archbishop “very happy” about plan regarding homosexual adoptions
See Who's Receiving Communion in San Francisco
San Francisco Archbishop Responds After Caught on Video Giving Communion to Gay Men Dressed as Nuns
Text of public apology from Abp. Niederauer
Nothing from Niederauer ( Pelosi's archbishop remains silent! )
San Francisco Archbishop to Honor Major Planned Parenthood Donor

[NYer]

This thread should have been posted to the News/Activism forum where it would receive greater attention.

[Quix]

I guess I wasn't finished . . .

I will be praying and I invite all authentic Christians to join, if led, in praying in agreement . . .

that

All RC Bishops who fail to excommunicate all the 'ostensibly RC' politicos within their turf from the RC Church

. . . that God will remove them . . . from their positions. Actually, I'll pray that, if possible, God will change them into fierce proponents of HIS PRIORITIES in such matters. That where that's not possible because of their willful death grips on compromising wimpiness--that GOD WILL REMOVE THEM within a reasonable-to-HIM time.

Further, that GOD WILL REPLACE SUCH BISHOPS with fiery Holy Spirit-filled Bishops so needed in this dark hour.

Further, that any Bishops who WILL rise to the occasion; judge such political horrific sins and discipline accordingly--I will pray that such Bishops be increasingly Spirit-led and that their ministry and flocks multiply accordingly.

Further, that if Pope B is wimpy in this matter, that The Lord will force him into a retreat where God turns him every which way but loose until he agrees to comply with God's priorities vs man's.

So let it be said. So let it be done. Amen.

[Quix]

All RC Bishops who fail to excommunicate all the ‘ostensibly RC’ politicos within their turf from the RC Church

That is, all such ‘ostensibly RC’ politicos who support INFANTICIDE, &/or Homosexual marriage etc.

[DarthVader]

Amen!

[Quix]

PRAISE GOD.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

THANKS TONS for your praying in agreement.

[Alamo-Girl]

IMHO, it is as if a great spiritual ship is moving through the deep waters of humanity forcing people to decide, to separate either to the right or the left, to good or to evil, to God or to self will run awry.

The more we sense Christ's return, the stronger the separation, the impossibility of not choosing. And though we may grieve for those who chose poorly, we must realize that the separation is also God's will:

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. - Revelation 22:10-13

Truly, all Christians - and particularly those who speak as religious leaders - must testify of Christ, His Name, the will of God without compromise. The time of separation is at hand.

To God be the glory!

[Campion]

Excellency:

Grow a spine or one will be imported for you from Rome. The time for "not being able to reach a consensus" on disciplinary measures is past. Faithful Catholics are going to be subjected to real persecution for standing up for life. Defend them.

Thank you.

[Quix]

INDEED! INDEED! INDEED!

Extremely well and Biblically put, as usual.

Thanks tons.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

[jo kus]

1. I don't believe Believers LEADERS particularly are routinely called, per se, primarily to be political lackys in a flesh driven system of buying and selling influence . . . . lobbying

Agree. But lobbying is a necessary evil in our system of government, isn't it? What happens to stands that have no lobbyist support?

2. Christians and particularly Christian leaders ARE CALLED to state forthrightly THE TRUTHS OF THE GOSPEL . . . GOD'S STANDARDS AND GOD'S PRIORITIES--TO FORCEFULLY [AND LOVINGLY] DELCARE THEM. Sometimes LOVINGLY = STERNLY--WITH CONSEQUENCES.

True, that was never the issue - the issue is whether they do it to 'be correct, who cares about their salvation' or to 'save souls'. I think we can say the later is the motive of people like Paul.

4. What RC Bishop has publicly on CNN consigned what politician to satan for the destruction of the politician's flesh that his soul might be saved? What are they waiting for--150 or 500 million murdered infants? Is THAT the trip-line for decisive courageous Christian declarations from the bureaucratic hierarchy? Or maybe the RC edifice is waiting for the beautiful cathedrals to be buried in baby skulls in garbage bags before their Bishops scrounge some cajones? <.i>

No one is arguing that the bishops in America have been doing their best job on this subject. We can look to other countries and see bishops take their jobs more seriously. However, we have a different culture now. You just cannot ORDER people to do "x", after years and years of disobedience from the BISHOPS THEMSELVES here in the US! Perhaps if the bishops here would not have been largely in dissent on a number of matters in regards to Rome, is it surprising that the bishops here are not taken very seriously? This is the culture we live in now - "I'll do what I want". Largely a Protestant culture pervades our society. Obedience to self. At any rate, it is going to take a lot of time, prayers and effort to change this culture here - if it is possible. I am not sure that mass expulsions of numerous nominal Catholics is the answer, nor do I see a precedent for that in Scriptures.

5. What's the criteria for stern spiritual declarative action?

I think Matthew 18:15-17 is the general idea. Keeping in mind that Christian leaders are not to "lord it" over those they lead. It is a difficult situation and am glad it is not upon me.

6. Playing WIMPY VERBAL FOOTSIE with demonized globalist traitorous legislators is not my idea of PREACHING, MODELING, DECLARING THE GOSPEL to any significant degree. What RESULT do you REALLY, TRULY, ACTUALLY EXPECT from such verbal mutual masturbation exchanges?

I don't think I have much more to add to this rant. But I think it calls for a more measurable response, given the reality of the culture the bishops now face (part of which THEY have reaped...).

Have trust in the Holy Spirit, Quix. We must do the best we personally can do to spread the Gospel, including the teachings on life, to those who contemplate such issues or are swayed by the liberal media.

Regards Regards

[jo kus]

1. I don't believe Believers LEADERS particularly are routinely called, per se, primarily to be political lackys in a flesh driven system of buying and selling influence . . . . lobbying

Agree. But lobbying is a necessary evil in our system of government, isn't it? What happens to stands that have no lobbyist support?

2. Christians and particularly Christian leaders ARE CALLED to state forthrightly THE TRUTHS OF THE GOSPEL . . . GOD'S STANDARDS AND GOD'S PRIORITIES--TO FORCEFULLY [AND LOVINGLY] DELCARE THEM. Sometimes LOVINGLY = STERNLY--WITH CONSEQUENCES.

True, that was never the issue - the issue is whether they do it to 'be correct, who cares about their salvation' or to 'save souls'. I think we can say the later is the motive of people like Paul.

4. What RC Bishop has publicly on CNN consigned what politician to satan for the destruction of the politician's flesh that his soul might be saved? What are they waiting for--150 or 500 million murdered infants? Is THAT the trip-line for decisive courageous Christian declarations from the bureaucratic hierarchy? Or maybe the RC edifice is waiting for the beautiful cathedrals to be buried in baby skulls in garbage bags before their Bishops scrounge some cajones? <.i>

No one is arguing that the bishops in America have been doing their best job on this subject. We can look to other countries and see bishops take their jobs more seriously. However, we have a different culture now. You just cannot ORDER people to do "x", after years and years of disobedience from the BISHOPS THEMSELVES here in the US! Perhaps if the bishops here would not have been largely in dissent on a number of matters in regards to Rome, is it surprising that the bishops here are not taken very seriously? This is the culture we live in now - "I'll do what I want". Largely a Protestant culture pervades our society. Obedience to self. At any rate, it is going to take a lot of time, prayers and effort to change this culture here - if it is possible. I am not sure that mass expulsions of numerous nominal Catholics is the answer, nor do I see a precedent for that in Scriptures.

5. What's the criteria for stern spiritual declarative action?

I think Matthew 18:15-17 is the general idea. Keeping in mind that Christian leaders are not to "lord it" over those they lead. It is a difficult situation and am glad it is not upon me.

6. Playing WIMPY VERBAL FOOTSIE with demonized globalist traitorous legislators is not my idea of PREACHING, MODELING, DECLARING THE GOSPEL to any significant degree. What RESULT do you REALLY, TRULY, ACTUALLY EXPECT from such verbal mutual masturbation exchanges?

I don't think I have much more to add to this rant. But I think it calls for a more measurable response, given the reality of the culture the bishops now face (part of which THEY have reaped...).

Have trust in the Holy Spirit, Quix. We must do the best we personally can do to spread the Gospel, including the teachings on life, to those who contemplate such issues or are swayed by the liberal media. Pray that our leaders can do the same - and if necessary for the sake of their souls, excommunicate the more scandalous ones.

I wonder if you would have been calling for Martin Luther's head in 1520, as well...!

Regards

[jo kus]

Ok, my internet connection screwed me up. Sorry for the double post...

Regards

[Quix]

THANKS--GREAT RESPONSES:

jo kus

to Quix QX: 1. I don't believe Believers LEADERS particularly are routinely called, per se, primarily to be political lackys in a flesh driven system of buying and selling influence . . . . lobbying

Agree. But lobbying is a necessary evil in our system of government, isn't it? What happens to stands that have no lobbyist support?

QX: A reasonable point. However, a huge part of me suspects that IF CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND PARISHIONERS OF ALL TYPES WOULD FOCUS ON WALKING THE TALK AND SEEKING GOD'S FACE AND CALLING ON HIM [AND doing their Christian-citizen duty of writing and calling their legislators] in such matters, the lobbyists would be running around playing futile catch-up to God's moving in the situations on a list of issues.

I don't think Moses or Paul were much into lobbying other leaders. Paul was persuasive with leaders about the truths of The Gospel. However, mostly, he let the POWER AND DEMONSTRATION OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT do the lobbying.

QX: 2. Christians and particularly Christian leaders ARE CALLED to state forthrightly THE TRUTHS OF THE GOSPEL . . . GOD'S STANDARDS AND GOD'S PRIORITIES--TO FORCEFULLY [AND LOVINGLY] DELCARE THEM. Sometimes LOVINGLY = STERNLY--WITH CONSEQUENCES.

JOK: True, that was never the issue - the issue is whether they do it to 'be correct, who cares about their salvation' or to 'save souls'. I think we can say the later is the motive of people like Paul.

TRUE. TRUE.

QX: 4. What RC Bishop has publicly on CNN consigned what politician to satan for the destruction of the politician's flesh that his soul might be saved? What are they waiting for--150 or 500 million murdered infants? Is THAT the trip-line for decisive courageous Christian declarations from the bureaucratic hierarchy? Or maybe the RC edifice is waiting for the beautiful cathedrals to be buried in baby skulls in garbage bags before their Bishops scrounge some cajones? <.i>

JOK: No one is arguing that the bishops in America have been doing their best job on this subject. We can look to other countries and see bishops take their jobs more seriously. However, we have a different culture now. You just cannot ORDER people to do "x", after years and years of disobedience from the BISHOPS THEMSELVES here in the US! Perhaps if the bishops here would not have been largely in dissent on a number of matters in regards to Rome, is it surprising that the bishops here are not taken very seriously? This is the culture we live in now - "I'll do what I want". Largely a Protestant culture pervades our society. Obedience to self. At any rate, it is going to take a lot of time, prayers and effort to change this culture here - if it is possible. I am not sure that mass expulsions of numerous nominal Catholics is the answer, nor do I see a precedent for that in Scriptures.

QX: I do NOT think this culture is necessarily more of a watered down apostate Proddy culture than it is an apostate RC culture. Leaders of both camps have abdicated, rebelled, misrepresented Christ and utterly failed generally.

QX: Sooooooo some of the Bishops evidently need excommunicated, too. The time for fantasies about changing the culture are past. GOD ALONE WILL CHANGE THIS CULTURE. And He WILL DO IT BY FLUSHING OUT OF EXISTENCE IN THIS TIME/SPACE DIMENSION ALL EVIL DOERS. That much IS CLEAR about the end times, Armageddon etc. We can either get WITH HIS PROGRAM or briefly enjoy the swirling water . . . er fire.

Oh, I see some precedents in Scripture! The earth swallowed up some rebels in Moses' time. There are other Scriptural examples. And WE SHALL SEE MORE AND MORE DRAMATIC SUCH IN OUR ERA. I kid you not. I actually expect God to take out most of the congress critters . . . uhhhhh . . . emphatically from public life . . . via one means or another. I just don't know the timing nor the results. Perhaps they will all have chronic incapacitating diarrhea fromt he OTHER end, for a change! LOL.

I do believe that such actions and such a stance by a number of Bishops--even one--would galvanize the RC parishioners and force many of them to choose more consciously and more thoughtfully between God and satan. THAT WOULD BE TO THE GOOD.

5. What's the criteria for stern spiritual declarative action?

JoK: I think Matthew 18:15-17 is the general idea. Keeping in mind that Christian leaders are not to "lord it" over those they lead. It is a difficult situation and am glad it is not upon me.

QX: 6. Playing WIMPY VERBAL FOOTSIE with demonized globalist traitorous legislators is not my idea of PREACHING, MODELING, DECLARING THE GOSPEL to any significant degree. What RESULT do you REALLY, TRULY, ACTUALLY EXPECT from such verbal mutual masturbation exchanges?

JoK: I don't think I have much more to add to this rant. But I think it calls for a more measurable response, given the reality of the culture the bishops now face (part of which THEY have reaped...).

QX: What sort of more measured responses would you suggest? I understand the merit in such. However, I think the time for that has largely passed. They have had measured creeping compromise upon compromise as a result of the best Marxist globalist manipulations for decades. The result has been this horrid UNBiblical mess. NO MORE SUCH!

JoK: Have trust in the Holy Spirit, Quix. We must do the best we personally can do to spread the Gospel, including the teachings on life, to those who contemplate such issues or are swayed by the liberal media.

QX: Certainly so. Certainly so. The best I can . . . for me . . . include calling errant, UNBiblical spiritual leaders to Scripture, To God, to task. I have little to no power to influence them but I must declare as I am pressed in my spirit to declare. God will do what He will with such in terms of administering HIS consequences. However, I've seen sufficient such to know that I CANNOT abdicate the place and role HE has put me in vis a vis such declarations.

I GREATLY appreciate your thoughtful response. thanks tons. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Wonderful, thoughtful and Christian responses. Thanks.

[ArrogantBustard]

The Catholic bishops are all into "ecumenism".

OK ... use it.

You, a nonCatholic Christian, appear to be scandalised by their apparent inaction or inadequate action.

Fine.

TELL THEM.

Recognise whatever good a particular Bishop may have done, and urge him to do more.

Do it politely, do it rationally (reference the Bible, the Catechism, the endless Papal documents) do it firmly. Just do it.

Verbal blows to the head are for the enemy (Barry Hussein, for example).

Lighting a verbal fire under the chair is for sluggish friends and allies.

[Quix]

A reasonable suggestion.

Will pray about it. Do you have a suggested list?

I mostly feel it’s mostly fitting for RC’s to do so.

However, I also know I’m called to speaking thusly to whatever spiritual leaders The Lord directs me to.

I’m sure they have a large circular file for such inputs. LOL.

Thankfully, God has plenty of options for turning up their hearing.

[ArrogantBustard]

Actually, I'll pray that, if possible, God will change them into fierce proponents of HIS PRIORITIES in such matters.

See ... that's what I'm talking about.

Jesus told us to love one another.

What is love?

St. Thomas Aquinas (I believe) taught that to love was to know, will, and do the good of another.

What is good? What is the ultimate good for any of us? Is it not to be a believer in Christ; to be saved?

What could be better for someone, that for him to become a fierce proponent of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

That prayer of yours ... I don't think I've seen anything on this forum ever that I agree with more.

AMEN!

[Quix]

PRAISE GOD.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

May His will be speedily done.

Thanks.

[ArrogantBustard]

A list?

Off hand ... Francis Cardinal George (Archbishop of Chicago) is president of the USCCB. He'd be a good start. Also Donald Wuerl, Archbishop of Washington DC. New Mexico has two dioceses: Santa Fe (Archbishop Michael Sheehan) and Las Cruces (Bishop Ricardo Ramirez). They might like to hear from you.

They already hear from (and will continue to hear from) Catholics. Given the fulsome evidence on this forum of Protestants being scandalised by nonfeasance on the part of Catholic leaders ... perhaps they should hear from you folks, too.

I’m sure they have a large circular file for such inputs.

Yeah ... no doubt. Still, you never know. Somebody has to sort all the incoming mail.

[Quix]

Uhhhh . . . are these guys the good guys or shilling for the other side?

Will try and look them up and give them a piece of my perspective.

[ArrogantBustard]

Cardinal George and Archbishop Wuerl have a long history of saying the right things, but not doing much about it. I know nothing of the bishops of NM. Bishop Martino (Scranton, PA) is, I think, in much need of prayer and encouragement. He's trying to act and not just talk.

[Quix]

Any other RC’s know about the NM folks?

[ArrogantBustard]

Sorry, I have no idea.

[mimaw]

The Bishop should have opposed Nancy Pelosi and her ilk earlier and more often. Perhaps a public excommunication would be in order. That would send a message to all Catholics that our church doctrine really means something.

[Salvation]

Bishops listed by Diocese

Bishops by Name

And the one I like best: Bishops listed by state

[Salvation]

I deleted that collection. Let me see if I can find it.

Thursday, September 04, 2008

Updated: American Bishops who have spoken against Pelosi

Here is the complete list of American bishops who have responded to Nancy Pelosi's comments so far:

1. Archbishop Charles Chaput of Denver was the first American bishop to respond
2. ... Bishop James Conley, his auxiliary, joined him
3. Archbishop Donald Wuerl of Washington DC responded twice, first in a press release and second in a statement to The Hill. He has also appeared on Fox News, I am told.
4. Cardinal Justin Regali of Philadelphia, chairman of the Committee on Pro-Life Activities, issued this statement through the USCCB website...
5. ... Bishop William Lori of Bridgeport, chairman of the Committee on Doctrine, joined him
6. Cardinal Edward Egan of New York publised a strongly worded statement of his own
7. Bishop Samuel Aquila of Fargo issued a letter correcting Pelosi's claims
8. Bishop David Zubik of Pittsburgh and...
9. ... Bishop Michael Sheridan of Colorado Springs have chimed-in
10. Archbishop Jose Gomez of San Antonio, CNA reports has added his voice ...
11. ... Bishop Oscar Cantu, his auxiliary bishop, has joined him
12. Bishop William Murphy of Rockville has published an extensive letter
13. Bishop Edward Slattery of Tulsa has a detailed response
14. Bishop Kevin Farrell of Dallas has joined the USCCB's efforts
15. Bishop Gregory Aymond of Austin is on-board
16. Cardinal Sean O'Malley of Boston mentions the USCCB on his blog
17. Bishop Thomas Wenski of Orlando has written at length
18. Archbishop John Nienstedt of Saint Paul/Minneapolis challenges Pelosi's statement
19. Cardinal Francis George of Chicago, President of the US Bishops, has weighed-in
20. Bishop Robert Vasa of Baker, OR publishes in the Catholic Sentinel
21. Bishop Jerome Listecki of La Crosse, WI responds in a word document
22. Bishop Richard Lennon of Cleveland, OH will comment in his September 5th column (PDF)
23. Bishop Ralph Nickless of Sioux City, IA has one of the very best responses I've read
24. Archbishop George Niederauer of San Francisco has invited Pelosi to a "conversation"
25. Bishop Glen Provost, LA: "Catholic Church clear on when human life begins"
26. Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of Brooklyn: "Judging the Candidates"

{Last updated on September 10th.}

Notes:

• Previous #23 has been removed. Bishop Joseph Gossman of Raleigh, NC is actually the bishop emeritus, and the new bishop, Michael Burbidge has not, to my knowledge, made a personal statement.
• Previous #16 has also been removed, it was an erroneous duplication of current #13.
• #26 was added September 10th, although he published his column September 6th

And there were more after these initial Bishops.

[Quix]

The Bishop should have opposed Nancy Pelosi and her ilk earlier and more often. Perhaps a public excommunication would be in order. That would send a message to all Catholics that our church doctrine really means something.

---

INDEED.

[Quix]

THANKS.

Have you heard anything regarding those over New Mexico?

[jo kus]

However, a huge part of me suspects that IF CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND PARISHIONERS OF ALL TYPES WOULD FOCUS ON WALKING THE TALK AND SEEKING GOD'S FACE AND CALLING ON HIM [AND doing their Christian-citizen duty of writing and calling their legislators] in such matters, the lobbyists would be running around playing futile catch-up to God's moving in the situations on a list of issues.

Quix,

In a perfect world, we'd see that. Of course, I agree. But even reading the Scriptures and seeing the subject matter of the Epistles, I think you would agree that there has not been a "perfect" community. Take Corinth! I imagine it gave Paul countless sleepless nights! We, as a community, are called to be a "city on a hill", but the reality is we often are not. I suppose we can ask God why He doesn't instill within our brothers a more "loving" attitude or that we wouldn't need lobbyists - Congressmen would naturally KNOW that abortion was murder... But we know the human situation and we have to deal with it. More later.

I don't think Moses or Paul were much into lobbying other leaders. Paul was persuasive with leaders about the truths of The Gospel. However, mostly, he let the POWER AND DEMONSTRATION OF GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT do the lobbying.

Moses was also the leader in secular matters for the Israelites, as religious and secular were intertwined to a large degree. Lobbyists are persuaders, aren't they? As to the Spirit "doing the lobbying", he does THROUGH other people. Wouldn't you agree that Paul saw himself as a tool or instrument of God? That is how God works in the world, through nature, people. We normally experience God through events in our lives or other people - that appears to be the normative manner that the Spirit blows.

QX: I do NOT think this culture is necessarily more of a watered down apostate Proddy culture than it is an apostate RC culture. Leaders of both camps have abdicated, rebelled, misrepresented Christ and utterly failed generally.

I am not saying the cause of our problems are "Protestant culture" as if to say it is our separated brother's fault! No, not at all. I am saying it is a "Protestant mindset", if you will, the idea of "rugged individualism". The idea that no one has final authority over me except my God and myself. This is a foreign idea to "Catholic" culture. "True" Catholic culture looks to their leaders - who have done a crappy job in the last 40 years. We see our leaders disobeying THEIR leaders, so the example is "why should I obey"? The virtue of obedience and child-like faith is lost on people who are more likely to follow themeselves.

Perhaps it is a misnomer to call it "Protestant culture", since it stems from the first sin in the Garden, the desire of the individual to judge right from wrong regardless of what God says. But I see this is a big part of the problem. Those in the pews (perhaps you can vouch for your congregations) have lost respect for their leaders and do not take them very seriously, especially on personal matters such as sex and abortion. I think here in America, the problem is becoming more open and universal.

QX: Sooooooo some of the Bishops evidently need excommunicated, too. The time for fantasies about changing the culture are past. GOD ALONE WILL CHANGE THIS CULTURE. And He WILL DO IT BY FLUSHING OUT OF EXISTENCE IN THIS TIME/SPACE DIMENSION ALL EVIL DOERS.

Hmm. Interesting idea. I confess I wouldn't mind to see some bishops severely reprimended. But I think many people see the Church heirarchy as analogous to a large corporation. However, it is not that way. It is more like a large family. The bishops are equals, and the Bishop of Rome is "first among equals". With these two things in mind, it is much more difficult for the Pope to undertake the disciplinary actions that some of us here would desire. Should an "equal" boot someone out of the Church or defrock someone? What sort of backlash will result from this "lording it over them"?

I have heard of an example of one bishop who got married to a Mormon, I think, and he was subsequently defrocked after Rome attempted to call the bishop back to his senses. In the distant past, some bishops who were teaching heresy were also defrocked. However, the worry I see from Rome is the possibility of "causing" another schism... Overly zealous action could cause several bishops to take their flocks and start a "parallel" church. Our history is full of such divisions. We see it here in America with the "Old Catholic Church" and the "SSPX" that began in France. I think THAT is what really is holding a more firm hand back in Rome. And it is very unlikely that the USCCB will discipline their own since they don't have the power to do so.

Like I said before, it is not so easy to just lay down the smack on some of the bishops.

I see some precedents in Scripture! The earth swallowed up some rebels in Moses' time. There are other Scriptural examples. And WE SHALL SEE MORE AND MORE DRAMATIC SUCH IN OUR ERA. I kid you not. I actually expect God to take out most of the congress critters . . . uhhhhh . . . emphatically from public life . . . via one means or another. I just don't know the timing nor the results. Perhaps they will all have chronic incapacitating diarrhea fromt he OTHER end, for a change! LOL.

Yes, Numbers 16. Interesting passage. I agree that God will eventually take action. And I recall a saying from St. John Chrysostom from 1500 years ago - "that way to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" (or something like that). I think the Church has always had to deal with bad bishops and priests. Christ Himself said wolves would enter the sheep pen. We try our best to expose them and pray that other people see them for what they are, and as such, lose their effectiveness to drag people away from God by their knowing or unknowing subterfuge.

QX: What sort of more measured responses would you suggest? I understand the merit in such. However, I think the time for that has largely passed. They have had measured creeping compromise upon compromise as a result of the best Marxist globalist manipulations for decades. The result has been this horrid UNBiblical mess. NO MORE SUCH!

I think the best of our bishops are doing an excellent job - and I think this is leading up to something more drastic. I do think we will shortly see some of the better ones begin to refuse the Eucharist to particular politicians who are especially scandalous. I believe Bishop Burke is already doing that. But I think the time is quickly approaching where we will see a "confrontation" between our values and the values of Obama and his culture. I think in the next four years, the Church will be FORCED to choose, as the question is pushed to the forefront. I think if we continue to support our better bishops and pray for them, they will receive the graces and courage to act the part of bishops like St. Ambrose, who called the Emperor to task (risking his life, no doubt).

Many of the bishops have gotten too comfortable in their "CEO" positions, as some feel they are more of an administrator than a teacher and protector of the faith. Perhaps the Pope needs to write an encyclical to remind them. I do agree with you that something needs to be done. I think it will be more "measured", more gradual. And I think it will rely on "grass roots" support - which we will attribute to the Spirit of God moving the "Sense of the Faithful".

I have little to no power to influence them but I must declare as I am pressed in my spirit to declare. God will do what He will with such in terms of administering HIS consequences. However, I've seen sufficient such to know that I CANNOT abdicate the place and role HE has put me in vis a vis such declarations.

I think it is very helpful that non-Catholics of good faith also show their support, as we are on the same side in this battle for the minds of those within this country. We realize that God's truth will set people free. We have experienced what Christ can do in our lives NOW! We need to share that with others - that it is not just about getting a "bus ticket" to the "pie in the sky". That having God in our lives (and taking His Law seriously) is advantageous to us now in THIS life - that many of our problems in society would be cured or alleviated IF more people became Christian in their mindset.

As such, continue to have zeal for God's Word and call our leaders to task. Continue to pray and rely on God's Plan, a Plan that will not fail.

Regards

[Quix]

A quick reply.

LOVED your excellent responses. I hope to get to them individually before too long.

Thanks so ENORMOUSLY for your thoughful Christian responses. They touched me deeply, tearfully.

God’s Best Love, Provision, Hope, Wholeness, Healing, Direction, Protection, Peace, Faith, Joy be yours.

[jo kus]

LOVED your excellent responses. I hope to get to them individually before too long.

Thanks so ENORMOUSLY for your thoughful Christian responses. They touched me deeply, tearfully.

God’s Best Love, Provision, Hope, Wholeness, Healing, Direction, Protection, Peace, Faith, Joy be yours.

I appreciate your zeal and now your thankfulness for what I wrote. You must truly love God to express such strong emotions in both directions. May the Peace of Christ be with you, my brother.

Joe