Posted on 11/16/2008 5:21:34 AM PST by GonzoII
FWIW, many Lutherans today don't possess a very robust "Lutherology" either.
Mr. niteowl77
FWIW, many Lutherans today don't possess a very robust "Lutherology" either.
Mr. niteowl77
FWIW, many Lutherans today don't possess a very robust "Lutherology" either.
Mr. niteowl77
Okay;Okay;Okay LOL!. I got it!
(Doing my best Arthur Carlson imitation):
“As God is my witness, I thought I only hit the send button once!”
Indeed. watered-down Mariology is the least of Lutheranism's problems. Luther would not recognize the churches that vainly wear his name.
True, but Calvin wouldn’t recognize many Baptist churches and anyone who was at Trent would would walk into an American Roman Catholic Church and would assume it was a Lutheran parish.
And not all the Lutherans have jumped as far off the rails as the ELCA.
The Lutheran view of Mary is a lot more muted than the Catholic. Luther was very devoted to Mary, but would not recognize the modern Catholic view of her as correct (nor would most Catholics of the time). The later Marian doctrines were not popular back then, and were sometimes suppressed (things like the Immaculate conception, Assumption, and the theory that is gaining ground of Mary be coRedemptrix). The idea of Mary not dying was not something that was considered “in bounds” for much of the early Reformation, and indeed was often viewed as out of bounds.
Actually there is nothing definitive on Mary's death or lack thereof in Catholic teaching. There are two traditions (not what we Catholics call Sacred Traditon).
Luther, Calvin, and Other Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary
I have to say, knowing what I do about Luther, this isn’t all that surprising—and really isn’t very important to Luther’s core theology—nor to his, and modern day conservative Protestants’ break with Rome.
1) Theotokis/Mother of God. All orthodox Protestants accept this, in the functional sense. I.E., that Jesus was divine from conception so, yes, Mary, who was created by God, did actually bear and birth God. As long as one doesn’t get confused and think that the eternal God the Son somehow had His origin in Mary, there is no problem here. This is normal orthodox Christian teaching...not a distinctive to Roman Catholicism.
2) Immaculate conception of Mary. Not surprising as it makes logical sense—that the Mother of God has to be perfectly pure. Of course it fails the biblical support test, as scripture says nothing about it. Still, strict biblical hermeneutics was a new idea, still being developed—and even invented—in Luther’s day. Mary’s conception doesn’t change a thing in Luther’s or Lutheran theology though, as it’s all about Jesus, not Mary.
3) Perpetual virginity. Not supported in the New Testament, non-the-less the counter idea, that Mary had normal relations with her husband AFTER Jesus was born—was nothing short of utterly shocking to Renaissance era persons. Sexuality was something so closely tied in medieval minds to sin—so such was unthinkable. Not surprising, though not biblically supported, but, not a distinctive to Roman Catholicism either.
3) Virgin conception/birth of Christ. Something only liberal/revisionist “Christians” today reject—and a doctrine universally accepted by all stripes of traditional Protestants, then, and now. It is clearly in the Bible, after all.
5) Veneration of Mary. All Protestants that I know of speak very highly of Mary. She was, by all accounts an extremely godly woman, of whom she said “all generations will call me blessed” since she bore God’s Son, God the Son, Jesus Christ. That kind of respect, love and veneration, which Luther praised, is NOT the same as the formal practice of “Veneration” and praying to Mary, which Roman Catholics do today (and then).
Luther STRONGLY condemned prayer to and worship of saints, including and especially Mary, since, scripture is clear, we have access to God through Jesus, and He alone is all knowing and all hearing. Also the 1st Commandment makes clear we are to bow down in prayer and worship to God alone.
One other thing, Luther, and Lutheranism changed—the more they studied the Bible, and the further alienated Rome was from them in time. Trent too hardened the most anti-Protestant strain of Renaissance Roman Catholicism as official dogma. Post tridentine Roman Catholicism would never be the same, as it was before Luther.
It’s all a great tragedy, I agree. However somehow, within the plan of God to redeem the world...
“Immaculate conception of Mary. Not surprising as it makes logical sense—that the Mother of God has to be perfectly pure. Of course it fails the biblical support test”.
Right: “No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture”, -Catholic Encyclopedia. Immaculate Conception. This is one of the dogmas we Catholics get from tradition which we hold to be on a par with Scripture: - 1Cor 11:2; 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Thess 3:6.
“Perpetual virginity. ..... Not surprising, though not biblically supported”.
Right again: “The Catholic doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary is based on tradition .” –New Catholic Encyclopedia: Vol.7; Pg. 1108.
”Virgin conception/birth of Christ. Something only liberal/revisionist “Christians” today reject”.
Who can doubt the virgin birth and claim the name of Christian.
”Luther STRONGLY condemned prayer to and worship of saints, including and especially Mary, since, scripture is clear, we have access to God through Jesus, and He alone is all knowing and all hearing. Also the 1st Commandment makes clear we are to bow down in prayer and worship to God alone”.
We catholics simply believe that the saints in heaven can intercede for us, the same way the “saints” on earth do, we all pray for one another, we do not bow down or worship Mary and the saints. We are all branches of the one Vine therefore connected to one another: -Jn 15:1-5. I think I should define the word “pray” as understood in the context of prayer to the saints:
Pray: 1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE: as a : to make supplication to (a god) b (1) : to ask (someone) to do something usually humbly or as an inferior to a superior. –Websters Third New International Unabridged Dictionary.
We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses: Heb 12:1, and angels offer our prayers to God: Tob 12:12, Rev 5:8; 6: 9-11; 8: 1-5.
Thanks again for the reply.
Gonzo...
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Not a surprise to me. A former student of mine wrote a doctoral dissertation that involved going through Martin Luther’s works to see everything that he had to say about Mary.
Basically, the only Catholic title that he denied her was Queen of Heaven, because he thought that was too close to the forbidden name of Ishtar in the O.T. Of course, a Catholic would say that Ishtar was a false Queen of Heaven, but Mary is the true one.
This arose because in Paradise Regained, John Milton—an intense Puritan if their was one—presents Mary in a most respectful way. In fact, he honors her more in that late poem than he does the Apostles. Most Miltonists found this bewildering, but in point of fact Calvin, as well as Luther, speaks highly of Mary and treats her with honor and respect. It was a later Protestant phenomenon to let hatred of Rome degrade respect for the Mother of God—and ignore what the Bible actually says about Mary.
Interesting, I hadn’t realized the Milton connection. Dante was my favorite, Milton bored me.
I agree with you on Dante, but Milton is worth pursuing. He was actually influenced by Dante to some extent, as well as Virgil and others. There are good introductory books on Milton by Douglas Bush and C. S. Lewis.
Although he was a Puritan, and indulges in Catholic-bashing from time to time, he was not a Calvinist. He was a strong believer in free will, and I find his poetry rather sacramental in basic attitude, since he does not fall into the matter is evil/spirit is good fallacy.
A fair number of both Jewish and Catholic critics have been attracted to him.
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>>and the theory that is gaining ground of Mary be coRedemptrix<<
Only non-Catholics believe this along with a few Uber-Catholics who wish it to be so.
JPII ended that theory in the 90’s and B16 agrees with it. The Church will never name Mary Co-Redemptrix.
This is a thread from 2 years ago! No wonder I didn’t remember it.
Though I have heard more than a few on FR say that Co Redemptrix should be a dogma, and that all hell will break loose if it is not. Granted, many of them got expelled a while back.
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