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Eucharist vs. the Word (which is more important in the Catholic Church)
ZNA ^ | November 11, 2008 | Father Edward McNamara

Posted on 11/26/2008 4:35:17 PM PST by NYer

ROME, NOV. 11, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.

Q: Could you succinctly state the relationship between the importance of the Eucharist versus the Word of God in the liturgy of the Mass? I was on a Eucharistic retreat with a group of Catholics, when the leader of our group said that we as Catholics believe that the Word of God is as important as the Eucharist. I have always been taught that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith, but after she said this I did some research into adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and the Word of God, and it seemed that there was more than a little validity to her statement since the "Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us" ... and God speaks to us though his inspired Word, etc. Please clarify this. -- N.C., Cleveland, Ohio

A: I would like to begin this answer by recalling a conversation I had during my seminary years with an elderly Catholic layman while on vacation in upstate New York. This wise gentleman, of Lithuanian descent, rented canoes in the Adirondacks and often dealt with evangelical Christians who tried to win him over by saying they had the Good Book. He replied that as a Catholic he not only had the Book but moreover frequently met the Author.

Although one might discuss the theological precision of the anecdote, it does reflect a fundamental truth with respect to the different forms in which Christ is present to us. God certainly speaks to us through his inspired Word, and the Church teaches that he is present when the Scriptures are read. This presence, however, as Pope Paul VI teaches in his encyclical "Mysterium Fidei" is a real but transitory presence enduring while the liturgical reading lasts. It is, therefore, not of the same class as the substantial real presence found in the Eucharist.

From another angle we can also consider how Scripture is fulfilled in Eucharistic worship.

"The Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us" this is the foundation of our faith. However, the same Word who took flesh in Mary's womb, who died, rose and ascended, is the same one who said, "This is my body … this is my blood," and is thus present body, soul and divinity under the species of bread and wine. In every Eucharistic celebration the entire mystery of Christ from the incarnation to the ascension is truly made present anew, albeit under the veil of sign and symbol.

From this perspective the Eucharist is thus "more important" than Scripture because Scripture's ultimate goal is to lead us to union with Christ through full participation in the Mass. The Mass is a sharing in the worship which the Incarnate Word offers to the Father in the Holy Spirit.

Yet, from a different perspective and precisely in the context of the Mass, the question as to the relative importance of Scripture vis-[-vis the Eucharist is relatively meaningless.

In every Mass we are like the disciples going to Emmaus, except we already know that Christ is present among us. Like them, our hearts should burn as we listen to Moses, the prophets and the New Covenant as they speak about Christ. At the same time we are aware that in the end we will recognize him only in the breaking of bread.

Therefore it is not a question of the superiority of one over the other but of an inseparable interrelationship and ordering of one toward the other. Precisely because Scripture is ordered toward Eucharistic worship, the celebration's external form necessarily follows the road to Emmaus. All the historical evidence available shows us that the celebration of the Word and the Eucharist have always formed a single act of worship. Likewise, Scripture is so intimately intertwined within the fabric of every single prayer that we can say that without Scripture there could be no Catholic liturgy.

Conversely, and from a historical perspective it is also partially true that without liturgy there would be no Scripture, for one of the major criteria for determining which books eventually made it into the biblical canon was whether the book was read in the liturgical assembly.

Therefore the contraposition of Word and Eucharist does not correspond to an authentically Catholic vision of their intimate relationship.

It is true that, historically, Catholics have not been assiduous Bible readers. During the greatest part of the Church's existence books were a luxury few could read and fewer could afford. The lack of direct Bible reading did not mean that there was total biblical illiteracy. Most Christians were imbued with biblical salvation history through church decorations in painting, sculpture and stained glass. The huge reredos enshrining the high altars of many cathedrals harmoniously wove in the stories of Genesis, kings, prophets, Jesus' ancestry and the principal events of the New Testament, while centering everything on the sacrifice of the altar. In this way they provided a visible scriptural background to Catholic worship.

In today's changed circumstances the Church actively encourages all Catholics to possess, read and meditate on the Good Book, while not forgetting to make frequent visits to the Author.

* * *

Follow-up: Missing or Faulty Forms of Absolution

In the wake of our Oct. 28 discussion of a priest not using a valid form of absolution, some readers suggested that I should have also dealt with the case where absolution is denied due to some defect or impediment on the part of the penitent.

Actually, in my earlier reply I deliberately omitted this very complex subject as it would have taken me away from the immediate question. I preferred to limit myself to the question at hand because it was clearly a case of lack of proper sacramental form by the priest and did not concern his being obliged to deny absolution.

It is, however, important to remember that there are times when a priest must necessarily deny absolution. This would be the case, for example, if it is clear that the penitent lacks contrition or is subject to excommunication or some similar censure. In such cases, the priest must, in conscience, inform the penitent why he is unable to grant absolution, and then tell the penitent what he or she needs to do to be absolved.

It would be a grave injustice toward God, the Church and the penitent himself to lead him to believe he has received absolution when in fact it could not be granted. If the priest also simulates the form of absolution while not actually giving it, then he commits a grave fault.

A reader from Singapore asked what the minimal formula for absolution was. St. Thomas Aquinas and the majority of classical theology manuals held that the nucleus of the formula was the expression "I absolve you." A few also sustained that the words "from your sins" were also necessary. All agreed that the Trinitarian invocation and the other prayers were not required for validity but were necessary for the sacrament's licit celebration in non-emergency situations.

Something similar could be said for elderly priests who never learned the new formula of absolution. Any absolution formula that was once officially approved would certainly be valid. They would probably also be licit if never formally abrogated.

* * *


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; communion; eucharist; scripture
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To: MarkBsnr
Are you unable to sin? If so, then you are not filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore your theory is rendered inoperable.

Before I answer you, I want to be clear on this...Are you saying that no sinner, you and I included, can be filled with the Holy Spirit because we commit sin???

41 posted on 11/27/2008 4:28:29 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool; MarkBsnr

**To my knowledge, most former Catholics that left your church left when they started studying the scriptures...**

This is nonsense. Catholics read Scripture everyday. Our liturgy is based on Scripture. Have you ever looked at the Priest’s book (Sacramentary) with the prayers that he says at Mass? You would be so surprised because most of them come straight from Scripture.

Mark you are right on this. Faith and Scripture work together.


42 posted on 11/27/2008 4:38:31 PM PST by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
**To my knowledge, most former Catholics that left your church left when they started studying the scriptures...**

This is nonsense. Catholics read Scripture everyday. Our liturgy is based on Scripture. Have you ever looked at the Priest’s book (Sacramentary) with the prayers that he says at Mass? You would be so surprised because most of them come straight from Scripture.

Mark you are right on this. Faith and Scripture work together.

Yes, this is so, a favorite verse of mine is from Matthew 8:8 which we should all know from what book it is in the Bible or at least the story of it in the Gospel, when we hear (and in fact we say) "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed" Matthew 8:8 parts of the Mass are just like this if I have this correct. So it is partly ceremony in this way.

43 posted on 11/27/2008 5:39:58 PM PST by RGPII
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To: Iscool

***Are you unable to sin? If so, then you are not filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore your theory is rendered inoperable.

Before I answer you, I want to be clear on this...Are you saying that no sinner, you and I included, can be filled with the Holy Spirit because we commit sin???***

Cause and effect.

If you are filled with the Holy Spirit you cannot sin; if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit your sinful nature will lead you to sin.


44 posted on 11/27/2008 5:58:24 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Salvation

*****To my knowledge, most former Catholics that left your church left when they started studying the scriptures...**

This is nonsense. Catholics read Scripture everyday. Our liturgy is based on Scripture. Have you ever looked at the Priest’s book (Sacramentary) with the prayers that he says at Mass? You would be so surprised because most of them come straight from Scripture.

Mark you are right on this. Faith and Scripture work together.***

Remember though, the early Christians had no Scripture and yet had faith. The first Gospel wasn’t even written for 30 years after Christ Ascended. Faith can be bolstered through the reading of Scripture, sure.


45 posted on 11/27/2008 6:00:27 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
"Remember though, the early Christians had no Scripture and yet had faith."

The early Church did have Scripture and the Word of God. The early Church was Jewish and what we know today as the Old testament was completely available to them, as was their recent exposure to the direct ministry of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

46 posted on 11/27/2008 6:06:17 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

"Remember though, the early Christians had no Scripture and yet had faith."

The early Church did have Scripture and the Word of God. The early Church was Jewish and what we know today as the Old testament was completely available to them, as was their recent exposure to the direct ministry of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

And is it thought Paul used the (?)Septuagint, which is another interesting sidenote; included in the Septuagint are books like Maccabees, Sirach and Wisdom.

Septuagint in the New Testament and Septuagint site .

47 posted on 11/27/2008 6:17:39 PM PST by RGPII
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To: Cvengr

***”Remember though, the early Christians had no Scripture and yet had faith.”

The early Church did have Scripture and the Word of God. The early Church was Jewish and what we know today as the Old testament was completely available to them, as was their recent exposure to the direct ministry of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.***

I accept your correction with the following comments.

The Old Testament incompletely prophsied Jesus - it did not fully or even recognizably give the correct information about Jesus the Christ. The New Testament was unwritten until many years after Christ Ascended. Paul was one of the first to have his Epistles copied out but they were not considered Scripture for a couple of hundred years. Mark, the first Gospel writer, didn’t complete his for more than 30 years.

Very few people, relatively speaking, were exposed to the direct ministry of Jesus, and most of them only saw Him at a far distance, as in the Sermon on the Mount.

***Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.***

Could you rephrase this please?


48 posted on 11/27/2008 6:19:24 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Iscool
"And if a person is filled with the Holy Spirit, which is God, which is a 'real' filling, 24/7, why the emphasis on getting the 'real' presence of Jesus thru the Eucharist if you believe you are already filled with God???"

Even in Protestant theology, the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit and the Indwelling of Jesus Christ are two different issues.

Immediately upon having faith in Christ a number of things occur by the work of God the Holy Spirit, including these four easily memorized by the acrostic "RIBS". Regeneration, Indwelling, Baptism, and Sealing.

Nowhere in the NT is the believer commanded to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, because the indwelling is not caused by the believer's volition, rather it is an action performed by God by His Soverignty and Grace.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, discernible from the OT age, where believers were endued or covered by the Holy Spirit, is unique to the Church Age. The Holy Spirit provide the temple within the believer for the indwelling of Christ (John 14:17-22)

When we have been forgiven of our sins, He is free to sanctify us. This occurs upon initial saving faith for the unbeliever and upon repentance and confession for the believer. By 1st John 1:9, we are immediately forgiven those sins and at that time we are back in fellowship with God, also known as walking with Him or being filled wih the Spirit.

Many Protestants associate the Communion as associating the Bread with the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus made by allowing His body to be broken for all mankind on the Cross, and the Wine as the blood of the New Covenant sealing the covenant being made.

Many Catholics associate the Communion as the Eucharist, wherein the Bread is actually transubstantiation into the actual flesh, soul and deity of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, and the wine into His actual blood.

Both the Catholics and Protestants have sound counterarguments to the position of the other and many a battle and wars have been fought over the issue for centuries.

I don't know the full meaning of all the connotations implied, but I do recognize close study of Pauline theology identifying between the believer and the old sin nature, and the Johanine theologies recognizing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ in us give cause to not judge either position too rashly.

Even if the Council of Trent is correct in condemning those who take a Protestant perspective of the Eucharist, I would dare say very few Catholics are Trententine Catholics or even know the issue very well, let alone practice the full meaning of that Council's edicts.

Conversely, very few Protestants taking Communion fully grasp the doctrines of indwelling of the Holy Spirit as distinct from the indwelling of Christ who is one with the Father to fully appreciate some meanings present in the Last Supper.

49 posted on 11/27/2008 6:41:55 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: MarkBsnr
***Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.*** Could you rephrase this please?

Sure: Romans 10:17

Here's another one conveniently forgotten by those who attack sola Scriptura in order to appeal to tradition.

Gal 1:9, 2ndCor 9:8, and run some word searches on Sufficiency, and Good Work.

Contrary, tradition is frequently attacked, not merely by the apostles, but very much so by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus when dealing with the Jewish leadership which repeatedly appealed to tradition instead of God first.

Meanwhile, before one errantly goes off the deep end condemning all religion, Scripture doesn't always cast out religion, rather the mechanisms used to glorify and worship God are of good worth when performed through faith in Him.

50 posted on 11/27/2008 7:08:07 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RGPII

It’s also interesting to note that the early councils debating the canonicity of Scripture more often than not were debating what completed the Old Testament, than the New Testament.


51 posted on 11/27/2008 7:10:12 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
Conversely, very few Protestants taking Communion fully grasp the doctrines of indwelling of the Holy Spirit as distinct from the indwelling of Christ who is one with the Father to fully appreciate some meanings present in the Last Supper

Cvengr: when a Catholic in a state of grace receives Communion would you say he receives the Holy Spirit in the Host as well? And to what you wrote and adding on to my question, would we even be receiving the whole Blessed Trinity at Communion?

52 posted on 11/27/2008 7:15:31 PM PST by RGPII
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To: ex-snook; NYer; wombtotomb; RGPII; Iscool; Kolokotronis; AngieGal; Lilllabettt
Jesus is the Word. The Bible is not the Word. It is an account of the Word.This brings up a number of doctrinal issues which really get down to grammar and language, names, meaning, and identity.

The Word is an interesting phrase well known to the Jews prior to the Incarnation in their Targums (as the MEMRA). As such I can identify the Word as a mechanism by which God communicates to His Creation. I also identify it with our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. I also identify it with a source for a thinking process which is used by God the Holy Spirit as we grow in Him.

Scripture, I identify with the Word of God. Written form of His Word which is given by God.

The Bible is an anthology of some 66 books of Scripture recognized by assemblies of believers, by the apostles, as being identifiable with Scripture containing His Word.

Jesus is human and divine. There have been theophanies throughout human history and the second person of the Godhead, whom we know today as our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus is physically seated in heaven at the right hand of the Father. He is also identified as the Word, and interestingly the Son indwelt the Father during the Incarnation, expressing the deity of the Son.

53 posted on 11/27/2008 7:27:28 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr; Salvation; ex-snook; NYer; wombtotomb; RGPII; Iscool; Kolokotronis; AngieGal; ...

Interesting link here, where in Scripture is ? I’m not saying there isn’t an answer but it might take some work to find a reference.

“Matthew 11:21, “Woe to thee, Corozain...For if in Tyre and Sidon had been worked the miracles that have been worked in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”

What are these miracles in Corozain? Where is the reference?

Matthew 23:2, “The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses.”

Where is this ‘chair of Moses’ referenced in Scripture?

Acts 20:35, “In all things I have shown you that by so toiling you ought to help the weak and REMEMBER the Word of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Show me the verse where Jesus said these words.

Matthew 2:23, “And He went and settled in a town called Nazareth; that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.”

In what verse did the prophets say this?”

And more at

- http://www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/whereis.htm


54 posted on 11/27/2008 7:36:57 PM PST by RGPII
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To: Cvengr
**The Bible is an anthology of some 66 books ** -- Wrong

CNA unveils resource to help Catholics understand the Scriptures
The Dos and Don’ts of Reading the Bible [Ecumenical]
Pope to lead marathon Bible reading on Italian TV
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Books of the Catholic Bible: The Complete Scriptures [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: When Was The Bible Written? [Ecumenical]
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
U.S. among most Bible-literate nations: poll
Bible Lovers Not Defined by Denomination, Politics
Dei Verbum (Catholics and the Bible)

Vatican Offers Rich Online Source of Bible Commentary
Clergy Congregation Takes Bible Online
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: Mary's Last Words
A Bible Teaser For You... (for everyone :-)
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: New Wine, New Eve

Return of Devil's Bible to Prague draws crowds
Doctrinal Concordance of the Bible [What Catholics Believe from the Bible] Catholic Caucus
Should We Take the Bible Literally or Figuratively?
Glimpsing Words, Practices, or Beliefs Unique to Catholicism [Bible Trivia]
Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?

Church and the Bible(Caatholic Caucus)
Pope Urges Prayerful Reading of Bible
Catholic Caucus: It's the Church's Bible
How Tradition Gave Us the Bible
The Church or the Bible

55 posted on 11/27/2008 7:51:01 PM PST by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: RGPII
Yes and No.

The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit is completely by the volition of God. The indwelling of God the Holy Spirit isn't something we feel, or necessarily experience.

This doesn't mean that other works of God, such as spiritual gifts, which are uniquely given us by God the Holy Spirit, might indeed have experiences, memory recall, emotions or feelings, or simply knowledge directly provided by Him, but the actual indwelling isn't an operation dependent upon man.

God is free to indwell us and His decision performs that action, which we also may perceive as being performed from His Grace in response to the request of the Son to the Father for the Holy Spirit to come to us.

The Holy Spirit ALWAYS glorifies the Son in this Church Age.

In a Johanine sense, we aren't saved with a regenerated human spirit on multiple occasions, but we might be forgiven of sins on multiple different occasions if we have sinned between periods of being in fellowship with Him.

In a Pauline sense, when we remain in fellowship, we do not sin, but when we do sin it is the old sin nature which we have given control of our soul when we slip out of fellowship.

Would we be receiving the whole Blessed Trinity at Communion? (Eucharist)

IMHO, A believer who turns back to God as the focus of his thinking, confessing all known and unknown sins to Him, has precisely repented (turned away from sin and back to God) and confessed (communicated to God his falling away) and then God is free and just to forgive those sins, thereby re-establishing the state of fellowship between God and believer.

When we take Communion, we are obeying the direction of Christ by taking the bread in remembrance of Him. God the Holy Spirit provides the temple for God the Son to indwell the body of the believer. That temple provided by God the Holy Spirit is associated with out thinking in our mind, a compartment of the soul. It is also associated with the human spirit, as discernible from the soul.

I can understand how a believer receiving Communion (Eucharist) is performing a religious mechanism to check that he is back in fellowship with God the Holy Spirit by repentance and confession, then might be indwelled by Christ, sharing between believers in assembly, and the Father is in Him.

John 14:20 expresses: Christ is in the Father, we as believers in fellowship are in Him, and Christ is in us. John 14:21 further continues that for those who keep His commandments, the Father and the Son love that believer, and will manifest Hiself (the Son) to that believer.

John 14:23 further describes how the Father and the Son shall abide in the believer when those commandments are obeyed.

So, yes, when we are obedient, in fellowship with Him, such as in Communion, it is accurately said that all three persons of the Godhead may be indwelling the believer.

The manifestation of that indwelling is probably better understood by studying the Shekinah Glory and its manifestation of the cloud and pillar of fire outside the Tabernacle in the Old Testament.

Shekinah is derived from the Hebrew root for "to dwell". When God dwelt in the tabernacle and among His people it was performed with a protocol maintaining and establishing Holiness. The same occurs in the Church Age, where the temple is our body and He indwells us.

The halo seen in early Church paintings over the heads of saints, might very well be associated with the indwelling of God in the believer and a manifestation of that indwelling, similar to the cloud or pillar of fire manifest the Shekinah Glory over the tabernacle in the Old Testament.

56 posted on 11/27/2008 8:03:09 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RGPII

It might not matter in regards to our being equipped to perform good works as He has intended.

I’m not coming up with anything new here. It’s the classical counterargument supporting sola Scriptura during the counter-reformation. I forget the verses, ...I wanted to say there are a number of verses in the epistles all associated with 3:16, like 2Ti 3:16, Pet 3:16, 1Cor 3:16....

Although it seems corny, there seems to be a number of doctrines which happen to coincide with similar verse numbering schemes from different books,..not always, but surprisingly so when encountered.


57 posted on 11/27/2008 8:16:06 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

******Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.*** Could you rephrase this please?
Sure: Romans 10:17***

My mistake. You have already rephrased it and taken it out of context to boot. You must read the entire chapter, not take one line out of context.

Paul is talking about the refusal of Israel to accept Jesus.

Gal 1:9 is talking about the Apostolic traditions and teachings of the Church. 2 Cor 9:9 is talking about personal generosity and the good works of the individual.

***Contrary, tradition is frequently attacked, not merely by the apostles, but very much so by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus when dealing with the Jewish leadership which repeatedly appealed to tradition instead of God first.***

Paul, even more than other Apostles, demands that Christians accept the tradition - since the NT was not written at this point and would not be amassed for 300 years.

***Meanwhile, before one errantly goes off the deep end condemning all religion, Scripture doesn’t always cast out religion, rather the mechanisms used to glorify and worship God are of good worth when performed through faith in Him.***

Jesus created His Church, made Peter the steward and the Holy Spirit commissioned it at Pentecost. I do not think that Jesus created a Church in order to condemn it.


58 posted on 11/27/2008 8:38:02 PM PST by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Paul was one of the first to have his Epistles copied out but they were not considered Scripture for a couple of hundred years.

Now that's what I'm sayin'...Your church tells you this stuff but the scriptures themselves tell us differently...

Right there in the verse that's being discussed:

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Even before any scripture was written, Peter recognized that Paul was 'speaking' scripture and then was writing scripture...Right from the getgo...

And while it took a few hundred years for your bunch to accept it, that scripture was being copied, distributed and preached for hunreds of years...

Why didn't your group know that Paul's writing was scripture??? They didn't believe Peter??? What about your apostolic succession???

Peter knew exactly what was scripture and who was writing it...The Apostle John knew what was scripture and what wasn't...And by the end of their ministries, you can bet thousands upon thousands of Christians knew what scripture was and wasn't...They didn't have to wait for hundreds of years for your bunch to tell them what scripture was...

You guys ignore and deny the part of church history where your church confiscated and burned as much of these early manuscripts as they could get their hands on...Much of the time murdering those who refused to give them up...And then to claim your church created the scripture...HOGWASH...

59 posted on 11/27/2008 10:00:03 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Cvengr
Even in Protestant theology, the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit and the Indwelling of Jesus Christ are two different issues.

Never heard this before...And never seen an example of it in scripture...I've never seen in the scripture where anyone was filled with Jesus Christ (that part of the Trinity)...

Both the Catholics and Protestants have sound counterarguments to the position of the other and many a battle and wars have been fought over the issue for centuries.

I don't see where God provided a platform for sound counterarguments on both sides...Not only don't see it, can't imagine why God would even consider it...On one side, the Final Authority rests upon a priestly class of sinners...On the other, the Authority is the word of God, the scriptures...I don't see where God provided an argument for both...

60 posted on 11/27/2008 10:18:48 PM PST by Iscool
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