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The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism
The Messianic Literary Corner ^ | 11/30/2008 | Marshall Beeber

Posted on 11/30/2008 4:07:04 PM PST by mbeeber

The Messianic Jew & Charismatic Dispensationalism

by Marshall Beeber

In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective", thereby giving mankind a clearer picture of how God has provided and continues to provide salvation to man throughout history.  By acknowledgement of this perspective, an accord between Hebrew Old Covenant and New Covenant prophecy was forged, sweeping away many of the contradictions that divided Christian and Orthodox Jewish prophetic viewpoints.  Dispensationalists became God's instrument of change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries,  leading the way in promoting the support of the establishment of the state of Israel and bringing to light the prophetic signposts for the "End of this Age".

But when Dispensationalists took a theological stand against the excesses they found in contemporary "Charismatic" Christianity, they "Quenched the Holy Spirit" by denying the validity of most Charismatic Christian spiritual experiences.  The result of this schism today is an eschatology shared by both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Protestant Denominations, but a sharp disagreement on the exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The Dispensationalists claim they are protecting the kingdom of God from spiritual frauds and false theologies, while the Charismatics believe they have tapped into the "true baptism" of spiritual experience.  Both sides have valid arguments as well as excesses.  The Dispensationalists often times exude an overly dry manner in their presentation of scripture and worship, while the Charismatics often exude a "heart first" approach, which lends themselves susceptible to erroneous doctrine presented in an exuberant fashion.

Today most Messianic Jewish fellowships and congregations are disciples of one of the two movements mentioned.  As prophetic events move us closer to Messiah Yeshua's (Christ Jesus) return, believers are reminded of the Hebrew prophet Joel's promise of "prophecy, dreams and visions" among the elect of Israel before the great and terrible "Day of the Lord".1  Dispensationalists believe these occurrences were only present in the times immediately following the "Day of Pentecost" and will be present during the times just preceding "Judgment Day", where Charismatics believe these expressions of the Spirit were present from the Day of Pentecost continuously to the present day.2

Nevertheless, as the great "Day of Judgment" approaches, both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians should have more to agree upon than disagree.  When Dispensationalists accept they are living in the days just preceding the "Second Coming of Christ", they must also accept the very teachings they originally postulated. So as the "Day of the Lord" draws near, even Dispensationalists must accept those movements of the Spirit prophesied by Joel and recited by Peter on the Day of Pentecost.

I believe Messianic Jews (Hebrew Christians) and Gentile Christians from Fundamentalist, Charismatic and Reformed backgrounds will soon come to an understanding that events much greater than themselves will soon shape their understanding of the Lord's will in regards to commonly held beliefs and attitudes.  We will all witness the same wonderful signs, tribulations and persecutions, whereby our love for the Lord Yeshua and one another will be tried and refined.  It is then that Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ will finally be united in purpose and strength as we all await the "Coming of the Lord".

1. Joel 2:28-29

2. Acts 2:16-18

(Additional studies and commentaries are requested. Feel free to email MLC your materials for posting)

 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Charismatic Christian; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: charismatic; christian; dispensational; messianic; messianicjews
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Nevertheless, as the great "Day of Judgment" approaches, both Fundamentalist and Charismatic Christians should have more to agree upon than disagree.  When Dispensationalists accept they are living in the days just preceding the "Second Coming of Christ", they must also accept the very teachings they originally postulated. So as the "Day of the Lord" draws near, even Dispensationalists must accept those movements of the Spirit prophesied by Joel and recited by Peter on the Day of Pentecost. 


1 posted on 11/30/2008 4:07:05 PM PST by mbeeber
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To: mbeeber

The more I learn, the more I wish we had a holiday celebrating the future return of the King of Kings. I look forward to it every day to keep myself filled with true hope and joy. I know the day of His return won’t be pretty for those who are following the anti-Christ, but the clean up effort will be worth it.


2 posted on 11/30/2008 4:22:18 PM PST by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: mbeeber

The most outstanding feature of Dispensationalism is the pretrib rapture. Why no mention of it in this article? If there were a pretrib rapture, then these groups in question, Messianic Jews and Charismatics, will have been raptured out. Then, according to Dispensationalism, we revert back to the Old Covenant during the tribulation.

I am not saying I believe this scenario, I am post-trib, neither Dispensationalist nor pretrib.


3 posted on 11/30/2008 4:26:05 PM PST by sasportas
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To: huldah1776
Hello,

Thanks for your supportive comments. I believe we all may witness these prophetic events in our lifetime. No one wants to endure tribulation, but those who are wise will be ready and be “bright and shining lights in the ensuing darkness”.

In Messiah's (Christ's) grace,

Marshall Beeber

4 posted on 11/30/2008 4:35:45 PM PST by mbeeber (Messianic Literary Corner Director (http://www.messianic-literary.com/))
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To: mbeeber
Hyam Maccoby, Revolution In Judaea: Jesus And The Jewish Resistance
5 posted on 11/30/2008 4:45:28 PM PST by onedoug
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To: sasportas

Hello Sasportas,

One can hold to dispensational teachings and still have differences in perspectives on whether the rapture will occur before the Tribulation or during the Tribulation. I also hold to a Post Tribulation escatology. As far as I can see, this teaching does not detract from the main thrust of dispensational teaching. Remember that dispensational thought should not be considered infallable, but should be thoroughly studied to determine if it conforms to the both the writing of the Hebrew prophets and the gospel.

I posted a study on Post-Tribulation teaching on the “Second Coming” at http://www.messianic-literary.com/rapture.htm

In Messiah’s Grace

mbeeber


6 posted on 11/30/2008 4:48:02 PM PST by mbeeber (Messianic Literary Corner Director (http://www.messianic-literary.com/))
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To: mbeeber

In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called “Dispensationalism” rightly outlined the “Biblical Historical Perspective”, thereby giving mankind a clearer picture of how God has provided and continues to provide salvation to man throughout history. By acknowledgement of this perspective, an accord between Hebrew Old Covenant and New Covenant prophecy was forged, sweeping away many of the contradictions that divided Christian and Orthodox Jewish prophetic viewpoints. Dispensationalists became God’s instrument of change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries...

I don’t buy this. When I read “change” here, Obama comes to mind.


7 posted on 11/30/2008 4:52:58 PM PST by sasportas
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To: mbeeber
In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective"

I had to stop reading right there.

8 posted on 11/30/2008 4:54:12 PM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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To: sasportas
Sasportas,

Dispensational thought has brought much change to the world we live in today. Dispensational reformists have supported Zionism in the last century. Prior to WWII, the Balfour Declaration was responsible for opening up Jewish immigration back to Palestine to establish a permanent Jewish homeland.

President Harry S Truman, a Baptist who also believed in the prophetic promises given to Israel, supported the establishment of the state of Israel in 1947.

So you see, Dispensationalsim has caused much change in the world that we know today.

Whether Obama will support such change in the future is a question we all would like to know. His choice of Samantha Power to his national security advisory staff may allude to his anti-Israel leanings, or it may not.

9 posted on 11/30/2008 5:22:04 PM PST by mbeeber (Messianic Literary Corner Director (http://www.messianic-literary.com/))
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To: Alex Murphy

Alex, I cannot agree with you more.

A “truth” discovered 19 centuries after the fact is at least suspect.


10 posted on 11/30/2008 5:23:57 PM PST by newberger (Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death!)
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To: huldah1776
The more I learn, the more I wish we had a holiday celebrating the future return of the King of Kings.

Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran churches have an entire season devoted to the Lord's return: Advent. Today happens to be the first Sunday of Advent and the season will continue through December 24th. During this season we reflect on the Lord's first appearance at Bethlehem, his coming into our hearts for a lifetime of conversion and his Second Coming in clouds of glory. The gospel reading today was Mark 13:28-37 with related readings from the Old Testament and the Epistles.

11 posted on 11/30/2008 5:57:26 PM PST by TexasKamaAina
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To: mbeeber
Here's how the "bright and shining lights" thing happens, and you don't need to wait for Tribulation.

According to his Captain, my friend the pilot of a Marine Corps med-evac helicopter, stayed steady and controlled his ship as it plummeted down in a jungle after it was disabled by NVA/VC fire.

According to the Captain, more of the people on board lived than would have been the case had he not done the same thing as he died.

Gooie Gomez, one of the fellows well known to Viet Nam Vets on FR, was his flying crew chief.

Gooie, if you read the write-ups about him, seemed to walk about the site of exceedingly violent battlefields just picking up wounded soldiers and carrying them to the helicopter for evacuation.

I envisioned Gooie as an Angel.

12 posted on 11/30/2008 6:00:47 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: mbeeber
In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective"

Just wondering, can you provide us a list of theologians you have read who aren't dispensationalists? Are you familiar with the concept of "biblical theology" (as complementary to systematic theology? Redemptive-historical hermeutic?

13 posted on 11/30/2008 6:02:09 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: TexasKamaAina
Forget not Ascension Day. "He will come again as you have seen him go."
14 posted on 11/30/2008 6:05:53 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Lee N. Field
? Redemptive-historical hermeutic?

Can't spel for crap lately. That Hermeneutic.

15 posted on 11/30/2008 6:10:05 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Lee N. Field

You stated “Just wondering, can you provide us a list of theologians you have read who aren’t dispensationalists? Are you familiar with the concept of “biblical theology” (as complementary to systematic theology? Redemptive-historical hermeutic?”

My reply: Since Reformed Christian “Biblical Theology” and “Systematic Theology” replaces physical Israel with the Church in most passages dealing with future Messianic prophecy, such a question is merely a guise for entraping me in more fruitless debate.


16 posted on 11/30/2008 6:17:03 PM PST by mbeeber (Messianic Literary Corner Director (http://www.messianic-literary.com/))
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To: newberger; Alex Murphy

hi n.b. and a.m.
>
although disp’ism did not ‘appear’ until recently, THAT is exactly what would be expected based on the conditions of the giving of the ‘’Unveiling’’, the Apocalypse.

Please let’s exercise charity here. I don’t exect the Rapture to be the next prophtic event, but I expect the confirmation of the covenant (Daniel ch. 9).

When that happens, I’ll get back to you all on this, because then the whole Body is going to have to function as a unit.


17 posted on 11/30/2008 6:27:22 PM PST by fishtank (RINOs: Stuck inside of the GOP like spackle or paste. (We need a cleansing.))
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To: Lee N. Field

Hello Lee; You stated “Forget not Ascension Day. “He will come again as you have seen him go.” You have quoted Acts 1:12

Would you like to read the OT verse describing Jesus future physical return to the Mt of Olives? All those in Jerusalem will see Him return as He had ascended. I assume you gave me a reluctant yes.

Zech.14:3-4 “Then the Lord will fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a valley... (Is.8:9, Zech.12:9, Luke 24:50-51, Acts 1:10-11)


18 posted on 11/30/2008 6:38:25 PM PST by mbeeber (Messianic Literary Corner Director (http://www.messianic-literary.com/))
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To: mbeeber
such a question is merely a guise for entraping me in more fruitless debate.

You know where I stand. I know where you stand. You brought it up with the title of this thread and the first line of your excerpt.

Fruitless? I hope not.

I maintain that dispensationalism's "two peoples of God" axiom has some pretty severe gospel problems. I'd like to get you to examine that presupposition and it's gospel implications.

As far as the immediate question:

Just wondering, can you provide us a list of theologians you have read who aren't dispensationalists? Are you familiar with the concept of "biblical theology" (as complementary to systematic theology? Redemptive-historical hermeutic?

the things I see the average popular dispensationalist speakers and writers say make me wonder if they have any real familiarity with the views they're speaking against. Some of them have consigned us to the outer darkness. Meanwhile they all seem to be spinning in a tight little orbit about their own little common center.

So, who've you actually read?

19 posted on 11/30/2008 6:41:16 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Lee N. Field

While attending Biblical Seminary in Hatfield, PA in the 80s I read enough reformed theology to understand the tremendous error present in reformed thought. I will not though play into your sophist hand, knowing well that usually is your trump card.


20 posted on 11/30/2008 6:52:30 PM PST by mbeeber (Messianic Literary Corner Director (http://www.messianic-literary.com/))
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To: mbeeber
Biblical Seminary in Hatfield, PA

That's funny. On their website I see them presenting as useful links to the World Reformed Fellowship, Mark Driscoll and Redeemer Presbyterian, Tim Keller's church in NYC. Haven't found anything like a clear statement of faith though. The closest I find is this which seems a bit vague and squishy. Gone downhill since you were there?

Do you hold that there are separate redemptive plans for the new testament church, and the genetic descendants of the patriarch Israel?

Who've you actually read?

21 posted on 11/30/2008 7:40:34 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: Lee N. Field; mbeeber; topcat54; Alex Murphy
World Reformed Fellowship

And speaking of which, this is interesting: The Use of the Heidelberg Catechism with Israeli Christians

As a Jewish Christian, it was not easy for me and others to translate and bring this work to completion. We as the Jewish people carry the scars of the past, the pain of humiliation and the high price that we had to pay for being Jewish, from the hand of the so called “Christians”. This is particularly true of the German people, and the World War II. So why publish a book written in Germany?

I think that after six decades, it is time for us to put our emotional baggage away and to take advantage of the rich heritage and tradition that God has provided for His church through superb and valuable documents such as the Heidelberg Catechism.

To come to this day were we can hold this guide in our hand was not an easy journey. I began its translation more than four years ago while still studying at Westminster Seminary. It was there that I saw the need for such a personal guide to be translated and used by the Believers in the land of Israel. Once we completed the editing of the work, I decided not to publish it, since I felt that the church in Israel may not be ready for it. But in time and through the patience of the members of Board for Israel, we have come to this historical moment, at least it is such for me!

Some of the struggles of the congregations in Israel today and in the other parts of the world are not new. As the preacher said – there is no new thing under the sun. (Eccl 1:9, KJV). Some of the issues, challenges and heresies that the church is dealing with today were also in existence in the past, and much during the time that this guide originally was written. Therefore, we need to be wise and to learn from them in order to avoid making the same mistakes. And I believe that this guide can help do that and much more. The One and Only Comfort, for centuries has been a source of comfort for many people as they struggled in their walk with the Lord. Many Churches has been using it as a way of instructing and feeding their flocks, and also as their church constitution.

"what is your only comfort, in life and death?"

22 posted on 11/30/2008 7:54:07 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: fishtank
the confirmation of the covenant (Daniel ch. 9).

Already happened.

23 posted on 11/30/2008 8:05:55 PM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: mbeeber; Lee N. Field
While attending Biblical Seminary in Hatfield, PA in the 80s I read enough reformed theology to understand the tremendous error present in reformed thought.

In 25 words or less, what is the "tremondous error" in Reformed thought.

I will not though play into your sophist hand, knowing well that usually is your trump card.

I am curious as to why you would post this thread (I trust you are the author) if you are not willing to defend it no matter which direction it takes? What we do here is to post articles and then discuss them. When a vanity article is posted, like this one, then we all have the opportunity to engage the author himself.

And, BTW, what was "sophistic" about Lee's question?

24 posted on 11/30/2008 9:06:36 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: mbeeber; xzins; Buggman
Dispensationalists believe these occurrences were only present in the times immediately following the "Day of Pentecost" and will be present during the times just preceding "Judgment Day", where Charismatics believe these expressions of the Spirit were present from the Day of Pentecost continuously to the present day.2

As a Charismatic dispensationalist, I find this statement odd. Nearly every Charismatic I know is a dispensationalist. The dispute over the gifts of the spirit are not dispensationalist v. charismatic, it is more along the lines of Traditionalists v. Charismatics, with the traditionalists taking the position that the gifts of the spirit ended in the first century, despite the complete lack of scriptural evidence for that fact.

Can you name a single renowned Charismatic who is not a dispensationalist?

25 posted on 11/30/2008 9:19:09 PM PST by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: TexasKamaAina

Thanks! I’ll have to look into the details and maybe start my own tradition in home.


26 posted on 11/30/2008 9:28:26 PM PST by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: P-Marlowe; mbeeber; xzins; Buggman

Beeber seems to be describing “cessationists” rather than dispensationalists.

Obviously, there is no such thing as a charismatic cessationist. It would be a contradiction.


27 posted on 12/01/2008 5:27:15 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: huldah1776
We do; it's called Yom Teruah (the Feast of Trumpets), AKA Rosh Hashannah. See here and here for more info.
28 posted on 12/01/2008 5:55:35 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; mbeeber
Oh good, I wasn't the only one confused by that.

You know, misidentifying theological positions is starting to become a real pet peeve of mine.

29 posted on 12/01/2008 5:59:55 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Buggman; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; mbeeber

I’m a great advocate of just mixing theology up, calling it whatever you wanna call it, and then being really, really for it or really, really against it.

And then you get popcorn and watch the fights.


30 posted on 12/01/2008 6:19:44 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: xzins
I’m a great advocate of just mixing theology up, calling it whatever you wanna call it, and then being really, really for it or really, really against it.

Sometimes you end up with a tasty stew. Sometimes it's just Chelada. :-).

31 posted on 12/01/2008 6:56:18 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: mbeeber; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy
In the nineteenth century a theological revolution called "Dispensationalism" rightly outlined the "Biblical Historical Perspective", ...

How can an article be so wrong right off the bat? Amazing.

Dispensationalism: An Abbreviated Critique by Grover Gunn

32 posted on 12/01/2008 7:07:44 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; mbeeber

*chuckle* You know, I’ve often been tempted to take whatever my theological beliefs are at the time, write them all up, and name it “Truth Theology” or some other pretentious title, just to see who would get ticked off at me for it.


33 posted on 12/01/2008 7:33:45 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Lee N. Field

Never heard of it...it sounds absolutely awful

Beer & Clamato? That’s probably illegal in Germany. :>)


34 posted on 12/01/2008 7:35:50 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: P-Marlowe; mbeeber; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy
In 25 words or less, what is the "tremondous error" in Reformed thought.

It must be that it keeps most people and churches from being dispensational. It prevents folks from dividing the people of God along racial lines, and teaches that, rather than being a parenthesis, the Church, the body of Christ, is actually the eschatological terminus of God’s plan to have one people. IOW, it does not take a Jewish/Israel slant on the Abrahamic promises, but see them entirely as pointing to the Seed, Jesus Christ, and the spiritual children of Abraham by faith in Him. Reformed theology is thoroughly Christocentric.

This is an interesting article since our friend warned us earlier that he was going to prove his position using Reformed authors. He tried to do that with a quote from Matthew Henry, but failed miserably by misinterpreting Henry. Henry actually just the opposite of what our friend was trying to assert.

Perhaps this article is plan B. How apropos to the dispensational position.

35 posted on 12/01/2008 7:36:13 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: Lee N. Field
Can't spel for crap lately. That Hermeneutic.

With all due respect to the RH two-agers, It’s hermeneutics not hermeneutic. Hermeneutics is both the singular and plural form of the noun. "We can learn much from the hermeneutics of John Calvin’s." Hermeneutic is an adjective.

36 posted on 12/01/2008 7:42:43 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: mbeeber; Lee N. Field
replaces physical Israel with the Church in most passages dealing with future Messianic prophecy, such a question is merely a guise for entraping me in more fruitless debate.

This is called begging the question. It assumes that the futurist dispensationalists (and their MJ stepchildren) correctly interpret and understand whatever falls under the category of "future Messianic prophecy". This is the very heart of the debate.

"fruitless debate" – Interesting, since you also made the claim "I read enough reformed theology to understand the tremendous error present in reformed thought. " Are we simply to assume you correctly understand Reformed theology and how it applies to Israel v. the Church? You have not demonstrated that ability in your handling, for example, of Matthew Henry’s commentary. You misinterpreted his commentary on the meaning of the "great tribulation", selectively choosing from his commentary of Joel 2 while ignoring his commentary on Acts 2. Folks can see that in this thread.

37 posted on 12/01/2008 7:55:38 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; Lee N. Field; P-Marlowe

Herman Neutered ...

(and he doesn’t want to talk about it!)


38 posted on 12/01/2008 7:55:57 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: xzins; Lee N. Field; P-Marlowe

Ouch! I can see why.


39 posted on 12/01/2008 7:58:39 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: xzins
Beer & Clamato?

There's some amusing reviews on youtube.

40 posted on 12/01/2008 8:02:25 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: mbeeber; Lee N. Field
BTW, I would recommend you get a hold of a nice book called Judaism is not Jewish: A friendly critique of the Messianic Movement by Baruch Maoz. Maoz is both Reformed and of Jewish heritage. You migth also look for material by Steve Schlissel on the subject of Jews and gentiles and the Church of God from a Reformed perspective.
41 posted on 12/01/2008 8:04:08 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: mbeeber

Why is a so-called messianic jew not a christian? Or, if supposedly (s)he is christian, how can (s)he claim to be a Jew?


42 posted on 12/01/2008 8:13:16 AM PST by onedoug
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To: onedoug
Not sure you were watching, but it came up in a recent thread: "The Absurdity of Preterist Replacementarianism"

We (IMHO) never got a good answer from the individual that was pushing that idea.

43 posted on 12/01/2008 8:16:40 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: onedoug; mbeeber
Why is a so-called messianic jew not a christian? Or, if supposedly (s)he is christian, how can (s)he claim to be a Jew?

Is the Messiah Jewish ?

or is he Greek ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
44 posted on 12/01/2008 8:32:29 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt

I’m with One God and not into polytheism at all. Thanks.


45 posted on 12/01/2008 8:54:02 AM PST by onedoug
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To: XeniaSt; onedoug; mbeeber; Lee N. Field
Is the Messiah Jewish ? or is he Greek ?

Still not a very good answer.

Christian refers to Messiah’s people, not Messiah. Messiah was the savior of the world, not merely Israel or the Jewish people. The apostle Paul, the Jewish missionary to the gentiles, tells us that there is neither Jew nor Greek distinction in the Body of Christ. To categorize the body along racial lines defies the teaching of Paul and the other apostles, as well as Christ, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16) Apparently Jesus forgot to add "with two different names".

Additionally, in God’s sovereign plan to save the nations He brought Messiah into a mixed culture. The language of the NT is Greek, not Hebrew. Jesus is in every place referred to as christos, not moshiach. Christos is the biblical transliteration of the way Jesus is referred to in the Bible. That irony is lost of some folks who get a kick out of transliterating Hebrew words for us.

The Greek language was one of God’s ways of bringing true biblical ecumenism into His body, the Church. It is baffling that after 2000 years we have a subgroup of Christians trying to impose racial distinctions within the body for no good reason. And the irony is that many of the neo-judaizers are gentile by heritage.

Besides being offense to real cultural Jews, the term "messianic Jew" most inappropriate to the body of Christ. You have many people claiming to be messianic Jews who are really gentiles. And at its heart it is fundamentally divisive and sends mixed signals to those both with and without of the Church.

46 posted on 12/01/2008 8:54:15 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: onedoug
I’m with One God and not into polytheism at all. Thanks.

Yah'shua answered, .. 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
47 posted on 12/01/2008 9:02:02 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: XeniaSt

Messiah = Christ

Messianic = Christian


48 posted on 12/01/2008 9:09:32 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: xzins
Messiah = Christ

Messianic = Christian

Yes..
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
49 posted on 12/01/2008 9:12:21 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: mbeeber; Lee N. Field; onedoug
Dispensationalists became God's instrument of change in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, leading the way in promoting the support of the establishment of the state of Israel and bringing to light the prophetic signposts for the "End of this Age".

Indeed, many dispensationalists advocated a "hands off" policy wrt Hitler’s Germany and the Jewish people, believing that divine wrath against the Jewish people should not be opposed. These same dispensationalists saw Mussolini as the anti-Christ and knew they were in the "last days". This is documented in Armageddon Now by Dwight Wilson.

Many dispensationalists today are at the forefront of bring unconverted Jews from places like Russia and Ethiopia back into the land of Israel knowing full well that two thirds of them and their descendents will be slaughtered in the futurist "great tribulation".

Many dispensationalists believe that the "apple of God’s eye" will yet suffer divine wrath in the not too distant future, after the Church has been raptured to safety.

Some dispensationalists advocate a "two covenant" view of the present age suggesting that Jewish people to not need to have faith in Christ in order to obtain eternal life.

One noted dispensationalist does not believe that Jesus came as the Messiah of Israel, so, technically, Israel never rejected Him as their Messiah.

Dispensationalists are the theological Barach Obama of change.

50 posted on 12/01/2008 9:23:37 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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