Posted on 12/04/2008 7:15:40 AM PST by meandog
In holiday season many Christians have been merrily, joyously, and some perhaps even seriously, solemnly, and reverently, celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. However, one wonders how many gave any significant thought to the issue of when was Christ born. If they had they would quickly have discovered that despite all thy mythology and legend that surrounds this holiday season, we really do not know when Christ was born. We know neither the year, nor the month, nor the day. For that matter we don’t know the time of day either. God in his wisdom has chosen not to reveal to us anything concerning the exact date of this momentous event so long foretold by the prophets and awaited by the faithful. That should teach us something about the wisdom of even having such a holiday season when God in his wisdom has denied us the information that is absolutely necessary as a foundation for it. The purpose of this article is not to develop that thought, but to establish what the Scriptures do teach about the timing of Christ’s birth, about the date of the incarnation.
Let us begin by examining the sacred record of Christ’s birth as recorded in the Scriptures. While the Scriptures give us no definitive dates, there are a number of clues that point as to the time of year that Christ must have been born. Luke’s account of the nativity of our Lord is the most detailed and almost all these clues are found in his gospel. We will develop a number of these clues and see where they lead us…
(Excerpt) Read more at americanpresbyterianchurch.org ...
I believe Christ could return tomorrow and everyone will know it.
"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matt. 24:27)
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left." (Matt. 25:31-33)
What Rapture?
The point of my post was you may have salvation, but not leave here in the Rapture. Many seem to think they can be saved and never bear fruit afterward and be "entitled" to escape the Tribulation. The purpose of the parables was to warn Christians that they must bear fruit. Works doesn't save you, but it is a result of your feelings for your Lord. Salvation is completely separate from being Raptured out of the Tribulation. Works don't save you as shown when the thief on the cross wasn't able to DO anything after he announced his faith that Christ was Lord. He went to heaven with Christ that day even though his sentence was just and he did no works. The moment you accept Christ as Lord and repent of your sins, you become "justified". You have done nothing, but you are still going to heaven. If you don't die immediately, then you are supposed to be "sanctified". That is what the apostles were doing after the Ascension of Christ. Paul lamented that his flesh did things his spirit knew were wrong and there was a battle going on his whole life. Even though he still sinned, he was being sanctified as he followed Jesus. Then when you die, you are "glorified", and become as Christ is.
I believe we are to STRIVE to remove the sinful parts of our character every day, even though we are ASSURED of salvation. Those that don't are in jeopardy to pay for their sins in this world. That is the answer for some that ask why "good" people suffer in this world. We are not assured that we won't suffer. In fact, Christ said persecution and suffering was a given if you follow Him.
If you "slumber" and are a slacker for Christ during the time you have been commanded to spread the Gospel and live for Him, why would He relieve you of the punishment of the world in the Tribulation?( read the parable of the talents) The weeping and gnashing of teeth will be WITH the unbelievers. In other words, Christians will suffer along side of the lost. God has made an investment in you and we are not supposed to bury it till he comes back. The Rapture isn't the second coming of Christ.
The one spoken of many times in the Bible.
Well before the pagans attached themselves to the winter solstice, it was set in motion by the Heavenly Father. And given we are given details regarding when John was conceived and how old in the womb he was when Christ was conceived, how hard can it be to count. It makes perfect sense that on the shortest day of sunlight that the Light/Life Giver would begin His life in flesh. Emanuel = God with us.
If I do a search in the Bible on “Rapture” will it lead me to the passages wherew it is spoken of?
When was Yeshua born?
September 11, 3 BC (Yom Teruah)
Check out the Chronology at http://torahtimes.org/
The book is called The Scroll of Biblical Chronology and Prophecy. Online version here:
http://torahtimes.org/book/default.html
See page 44
When was Yeshua born?
September 11, 3 BC (Yom Teruah)
Check out the Chronology at http://torahtimes.org/
The book is called The Scroll of Biblical Chronology and Prophecy. Online version here:
http://torahtimes.org/book/default.html
See page 44
(Re-posting to include names of those who might be interested)
What cost is that? Do you think you have to know what day the rapture is supposed to occur in order to be included in it?
Not knowing Jesus was born on Tabernacles is just a slight inconvenience, but being left behind because you didn't think the Feast Days mattered will put us in the category of the foolish virgins or the foolish servants that got drunk and beat the others. Just picture the virgins that were told to go where they "buy and sell" and return to find their Bridegroom gone.
I think this is an impressive misreading of the parable. The reason the foolish virgins had to go out to buy oil was because they weren't prepared in the first place. "Getting drunk and beating the others" isn't a metaphor for not keeping track of Jewish festivals, it's a metaphor for leading a morally disordered life. (Doing things like, say, getting drunk and beating people up.)
The point of the parable is not to preach some sort of gnosis (special knowledge) that some days are more special than others because of where they are on the Jewish calendar. The point is for me to stay in the state of grace and sanctity and repentance, so that when Jesus comes for me -- which could be at his Second Coming, or could be at my own death (which, for all I know, could be today) -- I will be ready.
it is the rapturists who are confused. The Scriptures know of no chronological differentiation between what some folks call the rapture and the Second Coming.
September 11, 3 BC (Yom Teruah)
See page 44
No supporting argumentation at all. John 1:14 provides more understanding. Simply an assertion.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
About 7 pm.
Bump!
When does life begin?
At conception.
Good post.
No, you will get the same result on "Trinity" and a dozen more thing Christians believe in.
The passages are many and I'm sure you have heard of them, seen them, and read them if you have studied the Bible at all.
If you chose not to believe, that's your business, but you will be denying the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. A careful study of the Bible reveals there will be a Rapture and IMHO, it will precede the Tribulation and Second coming. I know and have read the verses that sound like there could be a mid-Trib and a post-Trib Rapture, but that is another argument all together. The fact that there will be a Rapture at the sound of the Trump is certain for myself. God sent His people an Ark before the Flood and has sent Jesus for our Salvation. He said we are not the children of wrath. The wrath He speaks of is His wrath, not just the everyday tragedies we all experience. The bowls of wrath that are spoken of in Revelations are Gods wrath on the Earth. IMO, God will rescue His Bride BEFORE delivering His Wrath to the unbelievers.
Would you allow your wife to suffer the greatest destruction since the foundation of the world? How does that show His love for us?
Are you not aware that at that time there was significant global warming caused by sheep farts?
No.
...." isn't a metaphor for not keeping track of Jewish festivals".....
I didn't say you had to keep track of them. I was showing their meaning.
...."I will be ready."....
I agree with you there. If you are ready, you will go. The question is, are you ready? The virgins weren't living for the Bridegrooms return. Are you? I can't answer those things. The point of the parable was, however to make you think if you are prepared to go, ...right now,...today. Most people seem to think they are going if anybody goes. That is up to the Bridegroom. He knows your heart. If I failed to warn people that living as the world lives won't get you to the Wedding Feast, I wouldn't be doing what I've been commanded to do. I know many "Christians" that warm pews on Sunday after living like hell on Saturday and have no problem with the way they are living. Jesus is not an insurance policy from hell. He wishes to have a relationship with each of us. Too many have the attitude, "I'm going, I'm saved". Maybe, and maybe not. The foolish virgins were admonished to go where they "buy and sell", a clear indication they were to enter the Tribulation. When they returned, it was too late. They were still virgins( Christians) and came back looking for the Bridegroom. Non believers don't do that.
Salvation can be assured, but Rapture is not the same as Judgment. The Bible isn't for non believers. It is for His people. Non believers don't believe anyway. What good does it do to warn a pagan of anything? Pagans are dead and can't see or hear spitual things because they are dead. The virgins spoken of are Christians. The servants spoken of are Christians. The Master spoken of is Jesus. Jesus means nothing to a non believer. The parables are talking to His church. He isn't warning a non believer they better get right.
Just look at the way Jesus spoke to the church elders of His day. He called them every kind of foul name. He came to save the lost, but also came to straighten out His Fathers House. The letters to the Churches in Revelations is just another example of Jesus telling His people he isn't satisfied with them. He starts with what they are doing right, then states they must change something or He won't be satisfied. There is but one church that passes all tests and that is the church that loves one another. You cannot love someone and fail to warn them of the danger they are in.
Too many Christians are comfortable in their knowledge and have never gotten off the milk and feasted on the meat. Everything is there but you have to desire to grow closer to God to find the deeper messages God has for us. I know many Christians that claim extensive knowledge and have never read the whole Bible. The certainly haven't had Bible study or any out of church knowledge given them. Many even are Sunday school teachers that have the burden of passing this knowledge on to their pupils. Reading a prepared pamphlet to the class isn't going to get the job done. Now that Bible reading and prayer are forbidden in school, most people grow up with basic knowledge and claim superior Bible ability even though they know less than the average housewife of the '40's and '50's.
The Bible teaches that there will, indeed, be a "catching up" of the saints (1 Thess. 4:17). The purpose of Paul’s instruction was to assure the saints in Thessalonica that those saints who had "fallen asleep" (i.e., preceded them in death) would not miss out on the Lord’s return. "[T]hat we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep." Apparently the Thessalonian church was given to all kinds of eschatological rumors and error (cf. 2 Thess. 2:1-3).
Until 1830 this "catching up" was considered by the Church to be the Second Coming from the vantage point of the saints. Around 1830 a new theology arrived on the scene which eventually became known as dispensationalism. One of the fundamental tenants of dispensationalism is the radical distinction between Israel and the Church. So, in order to preserve this radical distinction, the followers of this new theology had to invent the secret so-called "pre-tribulational rapture" in which the Church was removed from the world so God could pour His divine wrath out upon physical Israel during the so-called "seven year great tribulation". Dispensationalism believes that physical Israel is destined for great future divine wrath, but the Church is exempt from wrath (cf. 1 Thess. 5:9). Voila, you need a secret rapture to get the Church off the earth.
In reality the secret rapture, future seven year tribulation, and a whole host of other doctrines espoused by futurist dispensationalists are not found in the Bible. They are only "discovered" (as they originally discovered for the firs time in 1830) by reading the Bible through dispensational glasses with the assumptions and presuppositions of dispensationalism.
A truly careful study will reveal the hallmark of dispensationalism, the secret, separate rapture, to not be true. Careful study will reveal that the "rapture" and Second coming are, in fact, the same event. There is no reason to use the term "rapture" when one correctly understands the biblical subject of eschatology. Second Coming is good enough.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15)
Top Cat, your comments are correct. The dispensational teaching was originally from John Nelson Darby, who also began teaching a “Pre-tribulation Rapture” - your dating of approx 1830 is also correct. I am well acquainted with this teaching, I grew up with it. My great grandfather was a follower of Darby. This was all in the early beginnings of the Plymouth Brethren Movement. Darby was a prolific writer and also translated the Bible into several languages (a good translation, though still pretty much in KJV English).
Scofield was a student of Darby’s and much of the dispensationalism in his Reference Notes come from Darby. I credit (or blame) Scofield with making dispensationalism and Pre-Trib Rapture teachings so prevalent among Fundamentalist/Evangelical teachings and beliefs today. LeHay and Jenkins may have to answer for leading believers astray with their Left Behind series.
Whatever kind of tribulation lies ahead, God and His Word assures us we will be taken “through”, just as Noah and all those on the Ark with him were taken through. All those not on the Ark were taken out, to judgment. In Matthew, it speaks of two working in the field, one taken, one left (left behind). What the Left Behind teachers are missing is that the one taken is the one taken to judgment.
You are correct in pointing out that the purpose of Paul’s instructions to the saints in Thessalonica (and to us) was assuring them that their loved ones already departed through death would indeed be a part of what is to come.
Much of the Tribulation teaching comes from what is in Revelation. John addressed cover letters to each of the seven churches in Asia Minor, and sent these along with what is written in Revelation to them. I believe that these Christians fully understood what John wrote. There is basically nothing that is written in Revelation that is not already found in the Old Testament, and most of it is found in Genesis.
Why are we in this generation so stupid and ignorant of what God is telling us in Revelation? First, we fail to read carefully the first sentence in the book - it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is neither about black helicopters nor about nuclear war. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Now, if we are indeed the body of Christ, how can we, the body exist without a head? We can’t. Jesus, the head of the body, must also be here too. He is here with me, in my heart, and I yield (not perfectly yet) to having His mind in me. Finally, if he is indeed in my heart, and if I have yielded to Him, as my Lord, having His mind in me - I don’t have to be concerned about when He comes, and how. There were 10 virgins, 5 prepared, 5 not - BE PREPARED!
wait...is this an Obama birth certificate thread?
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