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RICK WARREN" "I dare you to try trusting Jesus for 60 days. or your money guaranteed back."
CAMPONTHIS ^ | December 04, 2008 | Steven J Camp

Posted on 12/09/2008 7:00:45 AM PST by Gamecock

As much as I appreciated what Rick Warren did in his faith presidential forum several months ago, his appearance last evening on one of my favorite programs, Hannity and Colmes, was disappointing. What Pastor Warren responded with to some of host's Allan Colmes simple yet important questions was not the biblical gospel of salvation or even a reasonable defense of the gospel.

One of his responses? "Try Jesus...?" As Colmes sarcastically quipped in response: "Like the book of the month club..."

Beloved, why can't evangelical leaders just speak the truth in love and give the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ without the sidebar fodder of feeling like they have to be funny; relate; be relevant; or make Jesus likable. Try Jesus? How disrespectful to the Lord. Heaven's dread Sovereign doesn't ask to be tried out like a new kind of food or gadget; He doesn't ask to be sampled - He demands to be worshiped, followed, obeyed and submitted to as Lord!

Now some might wonder: "Campi, is this kind of stuff really important today with our economy failing, people really hurting and feeling the pinch, wars still occurring, etc.?" Yes it is - and here is why. The gospel IS the key issue above all others. Not to diminish those other things for they are real concerns, but the eternal state of another's soul is the preeminent weight of all. Even if all around fails and we face some very difficult and trying times financially in our nation, the one true hope of all can never be depreciated or bankrupted - the hope of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen? We are privileged, beloved, to go to a lost world with the hope of salvation and the forgiveness of sins in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And this is our hope as believers too. We need to encourage one another with this hope daily. We need to pray for each other like never before. We need to comfort one another with the words of Christ these days and to provoke one another with love and good works. So when a well-known pastor gets on a national news talk show and doesn't really present the true gospel when asked plainly - then it should matter.

Here is part of the transcript.

COLMES: All right. Let me ask you: you talk about, OK, so you think everybody needs a savior.

WARREN: I do.

COLMES: Well, what about those people who don't — you know, I happen to be Jewish. Not everybody — and Jesus, by the way, I have a lot in common with. Same religion.

WARREN: Absolutely.

COLMES: So not everybody necessarily goes that route.

WARREN: The thing is, Alan, I believe Jesus Christ came for everybody. I don't think he came for Christians. The Bible says take this good news to the whole world.

I don't care whether you're Baptist, Buddhist, Mormon, Methodist, Jewish, Muslim, or no religion at all. Jesus Christ still loves you. You still matter to God.

COLMES: True, and I think that's a wonderful message. But if you don't accept Jesus, if you're not something who goes that route religiously...

WARREN: Yes.

COLMES: ... can you find your way to heaven? Can you still be — go to the same place when it's all said and done?

WARREN: I'm not the authority on that, but I believe Jesus is. And everybody's betting their life on something. Jesus said, "I am the way." I'm betting that he's not a liar. I'm betting that he told the truth.

COLMES: What about — what does it say for all those people who do not accept Christ as their personal savior?

WARREN: I'm saying that this is the perfect time to open their life, to give it a chance. I'd say give him a 60-day trial.

(CROSSTALK)

COLMES: Like the Book of the Month Club.

WARREN: Give him a trial. See if he'll change your life. I dare you to try trusting Jesus for 60 days. Or your money guaranteed back.

COLMES: Really? You're going to give me the money back?

WARREN: Absolutely. Direct to me, Sean Hannity, FOX News Channel.

COLMES: But seriously, because I wonder. I mean, do you look differently upon those people like me who are not Christians but still don't believe...?

WARREN: I do not look differently on them. I think God...

HANNITY: He likes you more than I like you. He loves you. He tells you every time he's here.

COLMES: He's a good American.

HANNITY: Exactly.

WARREN: We're all created in the image of God. There's no doubt about that. There's not a person on earth that God doesn't love, but God wants us to learn to love him back.

And to me, God says, "I've given you this gift of grace, which means you don't earn your way to heaven. You don't work your way to heaven. You simply receive my gift."

And — and that means we need to unwrap the gift that God has given us, and your past can be forgiven. You can have a purpose for living, and you can have a home in heaven.

COLMES: Can you do all those things in other religions, too?

WARREN: I don't know how you would possibly do that. God didn't send 100 Jesuses; he didn't send 1,000. He sent one.


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: evangelism; rickwarren; saddleback; warren
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1 posted on 12/09/2008 7:00:45 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock

I suspect trying Jesus is not the same as placing faith in him.


2 posted on 12/09/2008 7:01:28 AM PST by Gamecock ("...Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" and both to Americans.)
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To: Gamecock

Everybody needs a savior, but not everybody gets one.


3 posted on 12/09/2008 7:02:11 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: DocRock; del4hope; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; Ottofire; fishtank; ...

YBPDLN PL Ping

The YBPDLNPL is generally published infrequently, but based on he exploits of the megachurch pastors posts can spike for a period of time. If you would like on or off of this list please FReepmail me


4 posted on 12/09/2008 7:02:49 AM PST by Gamecock ("...Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" and both to Americans.)
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To: Gamecock

That would be right.


5 posted on 12/09/2008 7:02:50 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: P8riot; tx_eggman

Money back guarantee? How much does Jesus charge these days, anyways?!?!


6 posted on 12/09/2008 7:03:46 AM PST by SpinnerWebb (mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves)
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To: Gamecock

What is this 60 days stuff?! A believer in Christ can expect what is promised ... Persecution and Suffering ... Now does that sound like something Ricky would use to entice audience? Of course not!


7 posted on 12/09/2008 7:04:31 AM PST by TexGuy (If it has the slimmest of chances of being considered sarcasm ... IT IS!)
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To: Gamecock

“Do or not do. There is no try”... Yoda


8 posted on 12/09/2008 7:05:02 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: SpinnerWebb
How much does Jesus charge these days, anyways?!?!

Same price as it has always been. Your life.

9 posted on 12/09/2008 7:05:22 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Gamecock

Deut. 6:16 Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God ...


10 posted on 12/09/2008 7:07:05 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Gamecock

Unfortunate choice of words. Faith is faith. It’s believing. But giving something a try and then stepping back and seeing how it’s working out for you is just a whole ‘nother thing entirely.


11 posted on 12/09/2008 7:08:24 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Gamecock
Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should "wager" as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose. It was set out in note 233 of his Pensées, a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise on Christian apologetics.

Historically, Pascal's Wager, groundbreaking as it had charted new territory in probability theory, was one of the first attempts to make use of the concept of infinity, marked the first formal use of decision theory, and anticipated the future philosophies of pragmatism and voluntarism.

Source
12 posted on 12/09/2008 7:08:37 AM PST by Straight Vermonter (Posting from deep behind the Maple Curtain)
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To: Gamecock

Actually, I think Warren handled it fairly well. He never did agree to anything but Jesus as the One Way. A lot of mega-church types would have folded.


13 posted on 12/09/2008 7:09:18 AM PST by Mr Rogers (And if there are those who cannot subscribe to these principles, then let them go their way - Reagan)
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To: Gamecock

1corinthians 9
Paul became all things to all people to promote the gospal. Take a chill pill


14 posted on 12/09/2008 7:09:39 AM PST by I_B_4_FRED (On Our Way Down)
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To: Gamecock

Thanks for posting. I missed that. I think I changed the channel when Al Sharpton was on. :-)

I agree with you. Warren was good up until that question. Then he blew it. wimped out. took the PC route. and Colmes rightly pointed out the silliness of “trying out Jesus”.

What was that about a “stone of stumbling” a “rock of offense”?


15 posted on 12/09/2008 7:10:56 AM PST by 1curiousmind
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To: P8riot

Nice one.


16 posted on 12/09/2008 7:10:58 AM PST by RushIsMyTeddyBear
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To: TexGuy

I was wondering that myself, usually all hell breaks loose on the believer, I mean really does satan care about the lost?


17 posted on 12/09/2008 7:15:54 AM PST by svcw (Great selection of Christmas gift baskets: http://baskettastic.com/)
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To: I_B_4_FRED

Did he become gay?


18 posted on 12/09/2008 7:19:49 AM PST by Gamecock ("...Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" and both to Americans.)
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To: Gamecock

Alan Colmes is the one who was mocking. Rick Warren laid out the Gospel as well as one might in ONE MINUTE. For the whole nation. Not a bad place to start.


19 posted on 12/09/2008 7:20:04 AM PST by bboop (obama, little o, not a Real God)
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To: Gamecock

Sounds like Warren is charging for Jesus but he is kind enough to add a return policy. I wonder exactly how much Jesus costs. Are there frequent believer discounts? What if I want a different model Jesus, say a four wheel drive Jesus? Can I use double coupons when buying a Jesus?


20 posted on 12/09/2008 7:20:24 AM PST by mnehring
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To: All

Considering that the 4th century ‘church’ lured converts by superimposing my Messiah’s faith and message onto the traditions and practices of sun worshipping, asking people to ‘try Jesus’ is just an insult to the injury and degradation that occurred long ago.


21 posted on 12/09/2008 7:29:32 AM PST by Madeleine Ward (.)
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To: Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; P-Marlowe

They’re afraid of the Truth.

The truth is that Jesus knows His sheep, they hear His voice, and they follow Him.

The others aren’t His sheep.

Like a friend said at church last week, “Like it or not, the Bible has a whole lot of “appointing” going on.”

:>)


22 posted on 12/09/2008 7:36:47 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: mnehrling

Y’all are taking Warren literally when it obviously was not intended that way. In essence, he was saying, “Try Jesus. See if he’s true. You won’t have any regrets!”

Nor is that approach evil. God can do a lot with someone who is just honest with Him. If you go to God and say, “God, I’m afraid. I don’t know if you are real. But if you are, save me!”, then it will be like opening the door of a dark room. The light will flow in and fill the room, and what didn’t make sense before will begin to do so.

I’m glad a lot of Freepers weren’t around when I was a kid. You would have been so busy insisting I pass a theology test that I would have never been saved at all!

The day after my conversion, my theology was terrible. Nearly 40 years later, it is much improved...but I still don’t believe I would get a perfect score on a theology test given by God - except that the test He gives will be, “Jesus, is he yours?”


23 posted on 12/09/2008 7:39:09 AM PST by Mr Rogers (And if there are those who cannot subscribe to these principles, then let them go their way - Reagan)
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To: Mr Rogers

I was just messin with him.. He makes goofy statements like that often.


24 posted on 12/09/2008 7:40:39 AM PST by mnehring
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To: Mr Rogers
The truth is most likely no one will be saved on a 7 minute section of the Hainity and Homey show. He did sound weak, but that is a problem for most Evangelicals today. If you quote the Bible, they label you a zealot and never discuss the verse.( No one comes to the Father but through Me). If you act “tolerant” or “PC”, there is NO way to get God's message out. Your only choice is to tell them there is NONE good, no not one, and there is only One Savior to get to heaven. Then you spend the rest of the 6 minutes arguing. Colmes would have to hear the Holy Spirit call his name to be saved. God gives His Son His Bride. We only are charged with regurgitating the Gospel. We are of no use to God in the process of Salvation, lest we boast. He sends us to the Divine appointments and uses us for His purpose, but in reality He doesn't need us to accomplish His Will.

I just expected more from a pastor than that, but I haven't been impressed with most pastors and priests in a long time. Even Robertson, Falwell, and Hagee squirm and weasel when confronted with reading actual Bible verses. All of them have crawfished on abortion and homosexuality on national TV. If Warren keeps playing a pastor on TV, he too, will be destroyed. At some point he will be confronted with black and white, good and evil, right and wrong, and he will choose to ride the fence trying to help his book sales.

25 posted on 12/09/2008 7:41:17 AM PST by chuckles
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To: Gamecock
This line really saved the interview:

COLMES: Can you do all those things in other religions, too?

WARREN: I don't know how you would possibly do that. God didn't send 100 Jesuses; he didn't send 1,000. He sent one.


I haven't had a very high opinion of Mr. Warren, but he could not be more plain than this that Jesus is the only way.
26 posted on 12/09/2008 7:43:00 AM PST by ChocChipCookie (Homeschool like your kids' lives depend on it.)
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To: Mr Rogers

I’m no fan of Warren, but you are right. Joel Osteen would have blathered his ususal “I’m don’t know” version of the “gospel.”


27 posted on 12/09/2008 7:49:33 AM PST by Cecily
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To: Gamecock

I’m sure he means well but this is an insult to our Lord. God calls us to Him. We either answer the call or not. I suppose if he said, “God is calling, answer the call,” I’d be okay with that. Just like the scriptures tell us that He is at the door knocking.

Try it sounds too much like a bad commercial (try it you’ll like it).


28 posted on 12/09/2008 7:49:52 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: Gamecock

Good Lord in Heaven, people!!

Rev. Warren was speaking in broad, easy to understand, terms. A lot of unbelievers happen to watch Fox News....not just Christians......If you want to turn people off from even the thought of contemplating the possibility that Christ is who he is suppposed to be in their lives, then by all means....lets break out the bibles and start quoting the hard scriptures......watch how many people eyes will glaze over and they will reach for the remote.

If you want the unchurched to at least consider Christ, then speak in terms that will not close them down to that thought.....then let God do the rest. Truth is Truth no matter how simply spoken

St. Paul called it baby food for a reason.


29 posted on 12/09/2008 7:51:04 AM PST by freedombird
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To: Gamecock

I suppose I’ll be criticized for this view, but I’ve been turned off by every preacher I’ve encountered. I can see value in direct ritual as is practiced in the Orthodox church, and in simple reading of scripture, but pep talks from a pastor/intermediary/coach/cheerleader, however well-intentioned... I just can’t see it.


30 posted on 12/09/2008 7:52:18 AM PST by SupplySider
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To: Madeleine Ward
>> Considering that the 4th century ‘church’ lured converts by superimposing my Messiah’s faith and message onto the traditions and practices of sun worshipping...

Dead on. Bravo! The numbs of Christianity have long ago forgotten that we are a Jewish sect. IMHO we should occasionally try to act like it. Find a copy of When Christians Were Jews; That is, Now by Wayne-Daniel Berard, ISBN 978-1-56101-280-0. I think you'll find it fascinating.

31 posted on 12/09/2008 7:54:10 AM PST by QBFimi2 (Ve are the New World Order; ve bring to the world dis-order. Spike Jones, 1943.)
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To: Gamecock

“Beloved, why can’t evangelical leaders just speak the truth in love and give the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ without the sidebar fodder of feeling like they have to be funny; relate; be relevant; or make Jesus likable.”

Why do so many Christians feel there is only one way to present the gospel (which, by a strange coincidence, always happens to be their way.)

Paul changed the way he delivered the gospel, depending on the audience he was speaking to at the time. His Mars Hill speech was appropriate for the audence he was speaking to at the time (a group of Greek philosophers), but to many other groups of the day (especially Jews) would have not only be inappropriate, but actually insulting.

Have you never seen someone that has firmly resisted the gospel their entire life suddenly open up to it when it is presented to them in a different way?

There are many valid ways to expose someone to the gospel. Instead of condeming those that are trying to reach people via unconventional/non-traditional methods, we should be rejoicing that people are being reached through these methods.


32 posted on 12/09/2008 8:01:09 AM PST by Brookhaven (The Fair Tax is THE economic litmus test for conservatives)
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To: Gamecock
WARREN: The thing is, Alan, I believe Jesus Christ came for everybody. I don't think he came for Christians. The Bible says take this good news to the whole world.

I don't care whether you're Baptist, Buddhist, Mormon, Methodist, Jewish, Muslim, or no religion at all. Jesus Christ still loves you. You still matter to God.

I can see why Warren's joyful proclamation that "Jesus is for everyone" would really irritate naysaying Calvinists.

The idea that Jesus wants all men to be saved and not just the exclusive "predestined" really messes with their morbid, elitist theology.

33 posted on 12/09/2008 8:08:52 AM PST by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future"- Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: Gamecock

When you cut out all the interruptions and crosstalk, it seems Warren was doing a pretty decent job under the circumstances. If he came on with a “trust Jesus or you’ll go to Hell” message, it would probably be the last time he was on the show (or any show of its ilk.) You’ve got to work with what you have, and work in the circumstaces you are placed in.

COLMES: ...so you think everybody needs a savior.

WARREN: I do.

WARREN: ...Jesus Christ came for everybody.

WARREN: ...Jesus said, “I am the way.” I’m betting that he’s not a liar. I’m betting that he told the truth.

COLMES: What about — what does it say for all those people who do not accept Christ as their personal savior?

WARREN: I’m saying that this is the perfect time to open their life, to give it a chance. I’d say give him a 60-day trial.

COLMES: ...do you look differently upon those people like me who are not Christians but still don’t believe...?

WARREN: We’re all created in the image of God. There’s no doubt about that. There’s not a person on earth that God doesn’t love, but God wants us to learn to love him back.

And to me, God says, “I’ve given you this gift of grace, which means you don’t earn your way to heaven. You don’t work your way to heaven. You simply receive my gift.”

And — and that means we need to unwrap the gift that God has given us, and your past can be forgiven. You can have a purpose for living, and you can have a home in heaven.

COLMES: Can you do all those things in other religions, too?

WARREN: I don’t know how you would possibly do that. God didn’t send 100 Jesuses; he didn’t send 1,000. He sent one.


34 posted on 12/09/2008 8:10:47 AM PST by Brookhaven (The Fair Tax is THE economic litmus test for conservatives)
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To: Mr Rogers
Try Jesus

To me this is a very dangerous philosophy. Let me try and explain before I am filleted. Many people try drugs, alcohol, sex, homosexuality, and many other things looking for something to make their lives better, something akin to "happiness". When evangelists say "Try Jesus, he will make your life better. He'll take away your problems and make you happy." People take them at their word and go ahead and give this "Jesus-thing" a try. Some evangelists even go as far as say that he will make you wealthy. But when the promises of persecution and suffering come they fall away from the faith. When things don't change for the better or their idea of "happiness" is not met they stop doing the "Jesus-thing" and consider themselves no longer Christians. They become bitter and feel as though they have been lied to, and rightfully so. Most have had what could be seen as false-conversions. In practice, this concept is manifest when many evangelists report thousands upon thousands of conversions but upon followup, very few new believers can be found attending regular worship.

Ray Comfort has a very good exposition on this teaching and I highly recommend that any believer take time to listen to the sermon entitled "Hell's Best Kept Secret".

35 posted on 12/09/2008 8:14:01 AM PST by TexGuy (If it has the slimmest of chances of being considered sarcasm ... IT IS!)
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To: marshmallow

Amen!!


36 posted on 12/09/2008 8:17:03 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Madeleine Ward

God can, will, and does use all of His creation to draw His children to Him. Many of the pagan practices were just people who, having God’s law written on their hearts, were seeking truth, though they did not understand who and what truth is. God can, will and does use that genuine desire to know, worship and love Him to reveal himself. God’s creation is good, using any of it to bring people to know Him is not an affront to Him.

Pastor Warren’s challenge was to try placing your trust in Jesus. Those who look to this world for comfort, freedom and salvation will not find it here. His proposal was not like those who hawk wealth building programs. His proposal was that when one trusts Jesus, one finds relief from the burdens of this world so that no matter the conditions of this world, one is happy, content, peaceful and free.


37 posted on 12/09/2008 8:18:48 AM PST by Jvette
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To: Mr Rogers
Actually, I think Warren handled it fairly well. He never did agree to anything but Jesus as the One Way. A lot of mega-church types would have folded.

I came to a different conclusion.

As usual, Warren, as do most of the Mega-Church pastors in their effort to not offend anyone, turned the Gospel into a superficial and ineffective matter.

The following dialog goes a long way towards proving my point:

COLMES: ... can you find your way to heaven? Can you still be — go to the same place when it's all said and done?

WARREN: I'm not the authority on that, but I believe Jesus is. And everybody's betting their life on something. Jesus said, "I am the way." I'm betting that he's not a liar. I'm betting that he told the truth.


A preacher who was actually called of God to PREACH the gospel would have without equivocation, pointed Alan to Jesus as the ONLY access point to heaven and the Savior of the world.

Furthermore, you will notice, Warren made no mention of Repentence, and that is an integral part of the Gospel. Today's "non-offending" pastor/minister all too often downplay or outright ignore the role of Repentence in the salvation of man and Warren's approach includes this ommission as well.

While salvation is the gift of God it does not come without Repentence.
38 posted on 12/09/2008 8:20:09 AM PST by SoConPubbie (GOP: If you reward bad behavior all you get is more bad behavior.)
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To: Gamecock

Pastor Warren hasn’t learned to deal with a masterdebater like Combs.

The line Combs is using is very common...Make the opposing side state something that alienates most of the audience. The way to deal with it is to call him on it, then state what the fact is.

“The Truth is, all who reject Jesus are doomed to separation from God for eternity.”

The difference is that Combs tried to make Warren responsible for everyone’s condemnation, and the Truth is that everyone is responsible for their own eternity, based on their choice to accept or reject Christ.


39 posted on 12/09/2008 8:30:00 AM PST by Sensei Ern (http://www.myspace.com/reconcomedy)
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To: Gamecock
To quote Jesus in Luke 4:12, "And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

He was quoting from Deuteronomy 6:16, "Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah."

40 posted on 12/09/2008 8:34:02 AM PST by mombonn (God is looking for spiritual fruit, not religious nuts.)
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To: TexGuy

As a person that didn’t come to Christ until they were 35 (and was unchurched, unschooled, and unknowlegable about Christiantiy), the “try Jesus” approach does work if you are talking about opening yourself to learning about Jesus.

The analogy I use for my conversion is a sailboat being pushed by a slow breeze towards shore. At first the port is hard to see, but as the breeze pushes you towards shore the port becomes easier to see. As you approach, you become confortable with the idea of arriving at the port. When you arrive, stepping onto shore is just one last step in a long journey.

So many people want to just dump every religious concept on a person at one time, or expect people to suddenly jump headfirst into Christiantiy. That’s like being a sailboat at sea and having a gale-force wind come up and suddenly drive you into port in a manner of seconds. Some people might jump off the boat, but I can say for myself, I would not have. I’m stubborn enough that I wouldn’t allow any storm to force me to do anything. I would have stayed in the boat, ridden out the storm, and then gone somewhere else.

God reaches people in different ways.


41 posted on 12/09/2008 8:39:31 AM PST by Brookhaven (The Fair Tax is THE economic litmus test for conservatives)
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To: Brookhaven
"Why do so many Christians feel there is only one way to present the gospel (which, by a strange coincidence, always happens to be their way.)"

There is only one way to present the gospel. The individual known as "The Good Samaritan" demonstrated the first step when he encountered the obvious opportunity thrown into his path.

42 posted on 12/09/2008 8:40:38 AM PST by Matchett-PI (WSJ - Advocate of regular enemas and happy thoughts blames America for Mumbai massacre. (Deepak))
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To: SoConPubbie

Good thing FR wasn’t around when Paul was preaching to the Greeks...not sure he went into enough detail. He sugar coated the Gospel, failing to damn them all to hell and failed to tell them to repent before God destroyed them all!

And he didn’t even have Alan there to challenge every word out of his mouth before he could finish a sentence!


Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” At that, Paul left the Council.”


43 posted on 12/09/2008 8:41:02 AM PST by Mr Rogers (And if there are those who cannot subscribe to these principles, then let them go their way - Reagan)
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To: Gamecock
If he's speaking to bruised reeds, which may be the bulk of our society, it's not a bad approach.

I recently thought of this approach myself, when I was thinking of the scoffers that I run into:

"OK, you don't believe in Jesus. How about asking Jesus to show you that He exists? Don't tell me what you're going to ask, tell Him. But don't cheat. When you get your answer, don't ignore it."

44 posted on 12/09/2008 8:43:37 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Matchett-PI

“There is only one way to present the gospel. The individual known as “The Good Samaritan” demonstrated the first step when he encountered the obvious opportunity thrown into his path.”

The Samaritan was not presenting the gospel. He wasn’t even Jewish. Samaritans were an offshoot of Judaism, and were looked at by Jews of the day the way Christians might look at a Christian cult today.

Paul presented the gospel in many ways. You say there is one way. Either you or Paul are wrong.

Samaritans and Jews were enemies in the day. I think the lesson from the good Samaritan is that we should approach each other in love, regardless of our differences.


45 posted on 12/09/2008 8:47:41 AM PST by Brookhaven (The Fair Tax is THE economic litmus test for conservatives)
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To: mnehrling; Gamecock
Sounds like Warren is charging for Jesus but he is kind enough to add a return policy. I wonder exactly how much Jesus costs. Are there frequent believer discounts? What if I want a different model Jesus, say a four wheel drive Jesus? Can I use double coupons when buying a Jesus?

Make sure you get a receipt, and hang on to it. Rick Warren says there are exchanges or refunds after 60 days.

46 posted on 12/09/2008 8:57:43 AM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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To: Brookhaven

You missed my point. I’ll let you figure it out.


47 posted on 12/09/2008 9:02:27 AM PST by Matchett-PI (WSJ - Advocate of regular enemas and happy thoughts blames America for Mumbai massacre. (Deepak))
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To: Gamecock

I suspect you’re right.


48 posted on 12/09/2008 9:28:50 AM PST by Buggman (HebrewRoot.com - Baruch haBa b'Shem ADONAI!)
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To: Gamecock
This is what Rick Warren means by "trusting in Jesus for 60 days", from the 2007 thread Saddleback "2020 Vision" Progress Report
We discovered that Saddleback has exceeded it’s vision regarding numerical growth but appears to be faltering on those aspects of its vision that pertain to in-depth Biblical study and teaching...

...We decided to call Saddleback to find out how their midweek ‘believers’ service was doing. Sadly, we have to report that Saddleback does not currently offer a mid-week believer’s service. The only church services currently being offered at Saddleback are the weekend ‘Seeker Friendly’ services...

...Secondly we conducted a phone survey to find out if Saddleback’s lay ministers have achieved the reputation of being the ‘best Bible teachers in the country’. So far not one of the churches that we’ve contacted has spontaneously said that ‘Saddleback’s lay ministers are the Best Bible teachers.” One pastor even laughed when we suggested Saddleback’s lay ministers could be the correct answer. When he stopped laughing he asked if we were joking...

...This also does not surprise us. Recently, Chris Rosebrough of ExtremeTheology.com conducted an informal survey with a sampling of Saddleback’s small group leaders and found that of the leaders that he surveyed nearly 2/3rds of them were not able to pass a simple quiz on basic Christian doctrine and key Biblical knowledge.

News story from 2006:

...Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., with bestselling author Rick Warren took a plunge down from number five to number thirty-nine. New membership gains in the past year dropped by nearly 1,500 people to 1,149.
One of my posts, from 2005:
The PDL movement will end up producing "burnt over districts" of ex-believers who thought there was more to Christianity, and were led astray by Warren and his PDL. If there was "deeper" meaning and material for new converts, I'd think Warren would use the profits from PDL to publish it, or at least promote it. From what I've seen in his books and on Saddleback's website, I don't Warren has any idea how to transition a milk drinker into a meat eater.

Another one of my posts, from 2005:

...does Rick Warren have a "sweeping P.E.A.C.E. plan to defeat poverty" from among the 20,000-40,000 members of Saddleback Church attendees? I see individual ministries named on the Saddleback website. But I don't see the sweeping statements and promises regarding defeating poverty from Saddleback that I'm seeing regarding his Rwanda efforts. Not saying he can't do both. Just saying I don't see him doing this domestically, and among his own flock first.

49 posted on 12/09/2008 10:14:57 AM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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To: Brookhaven
“Beloved, why can’t evangelical leaders just speak the truth in love and give the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ without the sidebar fodder of feeling like they have to be funny; relate; be relevant; or make Jesus likable.”

The answer to your question is simple; Warren along with numerous other "evangelical" leaders are ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and more afraid of offending men than they are offending God. Warren does not want to "offend" the sensabilities of supposed "seekers". Hence they procalim a "different Gospel" which is not another gospel at all:

I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-10

50 posted on 12/09/2008 11:07:01 AM PST by Jmouse007 (tot)
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