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And It Was Night. The Real Story of Original Sin [Ecumenical]
Chiesa.com ^ | December 11, 2008 | Sandro Magister

Posted on 12/11/2008 7:26:21 AM PST by NYer



ROMA, December 11, 2008 – Three times in eight days, Benedict XVI has insisted on a dogma that has almost disappeared from ordinary preaching, and is rejected by the neomodernist theologians: the dogma of original sin.

He did this on Monday, December 8, at the Angelus for the feast of the Immaculate Conception; on the previous Wednesday, December 3, at the weekly audience with thousands of faithful and pilgrims; and again at the general audience on Wednesday, December 10.

At the Angelus for the Immaculate Conception, pope Joseph Ratzinger said:

"The mystery of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, which we solemnly celebrate today, reminds us of two fundamental truths of our faith: original sin first of all, and then the victory over this by the grace of Christ, a victory that shines in a sublime manner in Mary Most Holy.

"The existence of what the Church calls 'original sin' is, unfortunately, overwhelmingly obvious, if we only look around ourselves, and above all within ourselves. The experience of evil is, in fact, so significant that it raises within us the question: where does this come from? Especially for a believer, the question is even deeper: if God, who is absolute Goodness, has created everything, where does evil come from? The first pages of the Bible (Gn. 1-3) respond precisely to this fundamental question, which tests every human generation, with the story of creation and of the fall of the progenitors: God created everything for existence, and in particular he created the human being in his own image; he did not create death, but this entered the world through the envy of the devil, who, rebelling against God, also drew men into deceit, inducing them to rebel (cf. Wis. 1:13-14; 2:23-24). This is the drama of freedom, which God accepts completely for the sake of love, while promising that there will be a son of woman who will crush the head of the ancient serpent (Gn. 3:15).

"From the beginning, then, 'the eternal counsel' – as Dante would say (Paradiso XXXIII, 3) – has a 'fixed aim': the Woman predestined to become the mother of the Redeemer, the mother of Him who humiliated himself to the utmost, in order to restore in us our original dignity. This Woman, in the eyes of God, has always had a face and a name: 'full of grace' (Lk. 1:28), as the angel called her when visiting her in Nazareth. She is the new Eve, wife of the new Adam, destined to be mother of all the redeemed. As Andrew of Crete wrote: 'The Theotókos Mary, the common refuge of all Christians, was the first to be liberated from the primitive fall of our progenitors' (Homily IV on the Nativity, PG 97, 880 A). And today's liturgy affirms that God has 'prepared a worthy dwelling for his Son, and in anticipation of his death, has preserved her from all stain of sin' (Collect Prayer).

"Dear friends, in Immaculate Mary we contemplate the reflection of the beauty that saves the world: the beauty of God that shines on the face of Christ."

* * *

But the pope went even deeper into the topic of original sin, in the general audience on Wednesday, December 3.

Every Wednesday since the beginning of the Pauline Year, Benedict XVI has dedicated his weekly catecheses to illustrating the life, writings, and teaching of the apostle Paul. This was the fifteenth catechesis in the series. In the two before it, the pope had explained the doctrine of justification, and the connection between faith and works. This time, instead, the opening topic of was the analogy between Adam and Christ developed by Paul in the first letter to the Corinthians, and even more in the letter to the Romans. By using this analogy, Paul evokes the sin of Adam in order to give the greatest possible emphasis to the saving grace given by Christ.

As generally happens in the Wednesday catecheses, Benedict XVI used a text written by expert contributors. But as on other occasions, he departed from it. And this time, he did so more extensively than usual. Beginning in the third paragraph, he addressed those present directly, improvising.

He did the same thing at the audience on the following Wednesday, December 10. He had a written text in his hand, but he spoke almost entirely off the cuff. Early in the address he returned to the topic of original sin:

"Dear brothers and sisters, in following St. Paul we saw two things in the catechesis last Wednesday. The first is that our human history has been tainted from the beginning by the abuse of created freedom, which intends to emancipate itself from the divine will. And in this way it does not find true freedom, but opposes itself to the truth, and as a result falsifies our human realities. Above all, it falsifies the fundamental relationships: with God, between man and woman, between man and the earth. We said that this tainting of our history is spread through the entire fabric, and that this inherited defect has increased, and is now visible everywhere. This was the first thing. The second is this: we learned from St. Paul that there is a new beginning in history and of history in Jesus Christ, He who is man and God. With Jesus, who comes from God, there begins a new history formed by his yes to the Father, and thus founded not on the pride of a false emancipation, but on love and truth.

"But now the question arises: how can we enter into this new beginning, into this new history? How does this new history reach me? With the first tainted history, we are inevitably connected by our biological origin, we all belong to the one body of humanity. But communion with Jesus, the new birth in order to enter to become part of the new humanity, how does this take place? How does Jesus come into my life, into my being? The fundamental answer of St. Paul, and of the entire New Testament, is: he comes through the work of the Holy Spirit. If the first history gets underway, so to speak, with biology, the second gets underway in the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the risen Christ. This Spirit created, at Pentecost, the beginning of the new humanity, of the new community, the Church, the Body of Christ."

* * *

These improvisations are an important element for understanding the thought of Benedict XVI. They highlight the things that are closest to his heart, the ones that he wants to impress most deeply in the minds of his listeners.

Original sin, this dogma that is so overlooked today, is one of these truths that Pope Ratzinger feels the need to revitalize.

And this is how he explained this to the faithful in the catechesis on December 3, the one most extensively dedicated to the topic, reproduced in its entirety here:


Adam and Christ: from original sin to freedom

by Benedict XVI


Dear brothers and sisters, in today's catechesis we reflect on the relationship between Adam and Christ, delineated by St. Paul in the well-known page of the Letter to the Romans (5:12-21), in which he instructs the Church on the essential lines of the doctrine of original sin. In fact, already in the First Letter to the Corinthians, referring to faith in the resurrection, Paul introduced the encounter between our forefather and Christ: "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive... The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:22.45). With Romans 5:12-21, the encounter between Christ and Adam is more articulated and illuminating: Paul reviews the history of salvation from Adam to the Law and from the latter to Christ. Adam is not at the center of the scene with the consequences of sin on humanity, but Jesus Christ and grace that, through him, was poured in abundance on humanity. The repetition of "all the more" in regard to Christ underlines how the gift received in Him surpasses by far Adam's sin and the consequences brought on mankind, so that Paul can add at the end: "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more" (Romans 5:20). Hence, the encounter Paul traces between Adam and Christ brings to light the inferiority of the first man vis-à-vis the prevalence of the second.

On the other hand, it is appropriate to make evident the incommensurable gift of grace in Christ that Paul attributes to Adam's sin: It could be said that if it were not to demonstrate the centrality of grace, he would not have hesitated to discuss sin that "came into the world through one man and death through sin" (Romans 5:12). Because of this if, in the faith of the Church the awareness matured of the dogma of original sin it is because it is indissolubly connected with the other dogma, that of salvation and freedom in Christ. The consequence of this is that we must never treat the sin of Adam and of humanity in a way that is detached from the salvific context, namely, without understanding it on the horizon of justification in Christ.

However, as men of today we must ask ourselves: What is this original sin? What does St. Paul teach, what does the Church teach? Is this doctrine still tenable today? Many think that, in the light of the history of evolution, there is no longer a place for the doctrine of a first sin, which then spread to the whole history of humanity. And, consequently, the question of the Resurrection and of the Redeemer would also lose its foundation.

So, does original sin exist or not? To be able to respond we must distinguish two aspects of the doctrine on original sin. There is an empirical aspect, namely, a concrete, visible, I would say tangible reality for all, and a mysterious aspect, regarding the ontological foundation of this fact. The empirical fact is that there is a contradiction in our being. On one hand, every man knows that he must do good and he profoundly wants to do so. However, at the same time, he also feels the other impulse to do the contrary, to follow the path of egoism, violence, of doing only what pleases him even while knowing that he is acting against the good, against God and against his neighbor. In his Letter to the Romans Saint Paul expressed this contradiction in our being thus: "I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do" (7:18-19). This interior contradiction of our being is not a theory. Each one of us experiences it every day. And above all we always see around us the prevalence of this second will. Suffice it to think of the daily news on injustice, violence, falsehood, lust. We see it every day: It is a fact.

As a consequence of this power of evil in our souls, a filthy river has developed in history, which poisons the geography of human history. The great French thinker Blaise Pascal spoke of a "second nature," which is superimposed on our original good nature. This "second nature" makes evil appear as normal for man. Thus even the usual expression: "this is human" has a double meaning. "This is human" might mean: This man is good, he really acts as a man should act. However, "this is human" might also mean falsehood: Evil is normal, it is human. Evil seems to have become a second nature. This contradiction of the human being, of our history should provoke, and provokes even today, the desire for redemption. And, in fact, the desire that the world be changed and the promise that a world be created of justice, peace, goodness is present everywhere: In politics, for example, all speak of this need to change the world, to create a more just world. It is precisely this expression of the desire that there be a liberation from the contradiction we experience in ourselves.

Hence, the fact of the power of evil in the human heart and in human history is undeniable. The question is: How is this evil explained? In the history of thought, except for the Christian faith, there is a principal model of explanation, with several variations. This model says: being itself is contradictory, it bears within it good and evil. In ancient times this idea implied the opinion that two equally original principles existed: a good principle and an evil principle. This dualism was insurmountable; the two principles are on the same level, hence there will always be, from the origin of being, this contradiction. The contradiction of our being, therefore, reflects only the contrariety of two divine principles, so to speak. In the evolutionist, atheist version of the world the same vision returns in a new way. Even if, in such a concession, the vision of being is monistic, it is implied that being as such from the beginning bears in itself evil and good. Being itself is not simply good, but open to good and evil. Evil is equally original as good, and human history would develop only the model already present in the whole of the preceding evolution. That which we Christians call original sin is in reality only the mixed character of being, a mixture of good and evil, according to this theory, it belonged to the very fabric of being. Deep down, it is a despairing vision: If it is so, evil is invincible. In the end, only self-interest matters. And every progress would necessarily have to be paid for with a river of evil and whoever wishes to serve progress must accept to pay this price. Politics, deep down, is based precisely on these premises: And we see the effects. This modern thought can, in the end, only create sadness and cynicism.

And so we ask again: What does faith say, as witnessed by St. Paul? As a first point, it confirms the fact of the competition between the two natures, the fact of this evil whose shadow weighs on the whole of creation. We heard Chapter 7 of the Letter to the Romans, we can add Chapter 8. Evil simply exists. As explanation, in contrast with the dualisms and monisms that we considered briefly and found desolating, faith tells us: There are two mysteries of light and one mystery of night, which is, however, shrouded by the mysteries of light. The first mystery of light is this: Faith tells us that there are not two principles, one good and one evil, but only one principle, the creator God, and this principle is good, only good, without a shadow of evil. As well, being is not a mixture of good and evil; being as such is good and because of this it is good to be, it is good to live. This is the happy proclamation of faith: there is only one good source, the Creator. And because of this, to live is good, it is a good thing to be a man, a woman, life is good. Then a mystery of darkness, of night follows. Evil does not come from the source of being itself, it is not equally original. Evil comes from a created liberty, from an abused liberty.

How was this possible, how did it happen? This remains obscure. Evil is not logical. Only God and the good are logical, are light. Evil remains mysterious. It has been presented in great images, as does chapter 3 of Genesis, with the vision of two trees, of the serpent, of sinful man. A great image that makes us guess, but it cannot explain how much in itself is illogical. We can guess, not explain; nor can we recount it as a fact next to another, because it is a more profound reality. It remains a mystery of darkness, of night. However, a mystery of light is immediately added. Evil comes from a subordinate source. With his light, God is stronger and, because of this, evil can be overcome. Therefore, the creature, man, is curable.; but if evil comes only from a subordinate source, it remains true that man is curable. And the Book of Wisdom says: "the creatures of the world are wholesome" (1:14).

And finally, the last point, man is not only curable, he is in fact cured. God has introduced healing. He entered in person into history. To the permanent source of evil he has opposed a source of pure good. Christ crucified and risen, the new Adam, opposed the filthy river of evil with a river of light. And this river is present in history: We see the saints, the great saints but also the humble saints, the simple faithful. We see that the river of light that comes from Christ is present, is strong.

Brothers and sisters, it is the time of Advent. In the language of the Church the word Advent has two meanings: presence and expectation. Presence: The light is present, Christ is the new Adam, he is with us and in our midst. The light already shines and we must open the eyes of the heart to see the light and to enter the river of light. Above all to be grateful for the fact that God himself has entered history as new source of goodness. But Advent also means expectation. The dark night of evil is still strong. And that is why we pray in Advent with the ancient people of God: "Rorate caeli desuper." And we pray with insistence: Come Jesus; come, give force to light and goodness; come where falsehood, ignorance of God, violence and injustice dominate; come, Lord Jesus, give force to the good of the world and help us to be bearers of your light, agents of peace, witnesses of truth. Come Lord Jesus!

__________


All of the catecheses on St.Paul delivered by Benedict XVI at the Wednesday general audiences, on the Vatican website:

> Audiences

__________


The textual analysis of five catecheses by Benedict XVI, the ones dedicated last winter to St. Augustine, with the pope's departures from the written text underlined:

> Exclusive: The Words that Benedict XVI Adds Spontaneously, When He Preaches to the Faithful (11.3.2008)

__________


The Vatican's response to the neomodernist theologian Vito Mancuso, according to whom "original sin is a genuine speculative and spiritual monster":

> A Theologian Remakes the Catholic Faith from Scratch. But the Church Says "No" (8.2.2008)


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; immaculateconception; originalsin; popebenedict

1 posted on 12/11/2008 7:26:21 AM PST by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
It is one of the most overlooked and rejected dogmas. But for Benedict XVI, it is "overwhelmingly obvious." He has talked about it three times in eight days. Without it, he says, Christian redemption "would lose its foundation"
2 posted on 12/11/2008 7:27:01 AM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: NYer

He’s right.

If there was no original sin, there would have been no need for Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for all of humanity.

“Neomodernist” theologians are destroying Christianity and ploughing the field for the planting of Islamic seeds.


3 posted on 12/11/2008 7:32:18 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: NYer

Excellent article. ;-)


4 posted on 12/11/2008 7:35:10 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified DeCartes))
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To: NYer; All
The importance of the doctrine of original sin.

"The history of mankind and of each human individual is unintelligible to those who do not believe in Original Sin. The doctrine of Original Sin alone explains the many riddles of our lives. It tells us why our wills are so prone to evil; why we fall so easily in temptation and rise again with such difficulty; why we must fight continually if we wish to remain good and advance in perfection; why we must avoid the occasions of sin. Original Sin alone explains why this world with all its beauty and loveliness is and will always be a "vale of tears". Any educational system that does not take into consideration Original Sin and its consequences is doomed to failure". -Chief Truths of the Faith. By Fr. John Laux, MA; Tan Books

5 posted on 12/11/2008 7:46:44 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: NYer
But Advent also means expectation. The dark night of evil is still strong. And that is why we pray in Advent with the ancient people of God: "Rorate caeli desuper." And we pray with insistence: Come Jesus; come, give force to light and goodness; come where falsehood, ignorance of God, violence and injustice dominate; come, Lord Jesus, give force to the good of the world and help us to be bearers of your light, agents of peace, witnesses of truth. Come Lord Jesus!

*****************

Amen!

6 posted on 12/11/2008 7:47:42 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

I don’t know anyone who has ever had to teach their kids to misbehave. They just seem to come by it naturally.


7 posted on 12/11/2008 7:49:43 AM PST by tbpiper (Now irate and tireless, but mostly irate.)
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To: NYer
Splendid, as in "Veritatis Splendor." I'm going to print it out and give it a longer, more meditative reading.

Original Sin is so obvious, as Pope Benedict says: just look at the daily news, or think of your last confession.

8 posted on 12/11/2008 7:50:37 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("The first duty of intelligent men of our day is the restatement of the obvious. " - George Orwell)
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To: SumProVita

Fight on, Good Pope! I had an argument with one of the priests when we RCIA’d in 2005. “Tell me about Original Sin,” I asked him, knowing full well what the answer should be, from my several decades of being a Protestant in a variety of churches. “Oh, hahah, what is that?” he said, or something to that effect. (LA Archdiocese, after all). We argued theology for a good hour, and he was really quite pleasant and agreeable. Later he referred to me, in one of his homilies, as ‘my Fundamentalist Friend.’

I am so glad to see this good Pope come out swinging on theology and liturgy. What a feisty one. We are so blessed.


9 posted on 12/11/2008 7:53:11 AM PST by bboop (obama, little o, not a Real God)
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To: NYer

Yes, the doctrine of original sin is central to our faith. Among other things, it helps us more fully appreciate the Savior.

I always feel uncomfortable with that painting. What was Eve doing when the snake stole her attention?

Just goes to show that old paintings aren’t always as pure as the driven snow, and that maybe some of those painters who produced nude images were similarly not as pure as the driven snow.


10 posted on 12/11/2008 8:11:10 AM PST by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: NYer

I never could understand why God made that snake and the apple tree, when He knew exactly what was going to happen.


11 posted on 12/11/2008 8:20:46 AM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: tbpiper

Especially when you deem what they are doing, as misbehavior.


12 posted on 12/11/2008 8:26:20 AM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
Adam Lay Ybounden (Boris Orde)

Adam lay ybounden, bounden in a bond;
Four thousand winter thought he not too long.
And all was for an apple, an apple that he took,
As clarkes finden written in their booke.
Ne had the apple taken been, the apple taken been,
Ne never Our Lady had been Heavene Queen.

Blessed be the time that apple taken was!
Therefore we mun singen, Deo Gratias!

14 posted on 12/11/2008 9:42:57 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: stuartcr
I never could understand why God made that snake and the apple tree, when He knew exactly what was going to happen.

This is a common misunderstanding about predestination. Note that His 'knowing' what would happen did not cause it to happen. He gave them the gift of free will and they exercised it. Had he not given them that gift then we would be no different from the animals who follow instinct not free choice. What great love He has for us!

15 posted on 12/11/2008 9:57:36 AM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: stuartcr

He loves us so much that He always respects our freedom to love Him and each other. Or not. If we were not free to reject, we could not be truly free to love, either. Oh, happy fault, that merited so great a Savior! (Exultet)


16 posted on 12/11/2008 10:30:52 AM PST by ducdriver (99% of liberals give the other 1% a bad name.)
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To: NYer

I cannot note that, as I believe that God’s knowing something will happen, means it will.


17 posted on 12/11/2008 11:20:59 AM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: ducdriver

Perhaps we are not truly free to love.


18 posted on 12/11/2008 11:23:03 AM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: NYer

Original sin is a false doctrine introduced into Western religions by Augustin around 500 AD who was a convert from a sinful past. Eastern Orthodox religions, while unfortunately are not evangelical, do not have this doctrine because they did not pick it up.

How many sinners are in hell today because the preacher preaches God made you a sinner and their conviction is eased? The church confuses the universality of sin with original sin. Go read Psalm 51:5 in the KJV and NAS and then go read it in NIV - it says 2 different things because the NIV is biased toward original sin.


19 posted on 12/11/2008 11:47:28 AM PST by RushingWater (You say Obama - I say Ayers)
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To: ducdriver
"O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere Redemptorem."

Or as Joyce said, "O Phoenix Culprit!"

20 posted on 12/11/2008 11:50:31 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse (TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary - recess appointment))
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To: stuartcr
"...as I believe that God’s knowing something will happen, means it will."

Didn't Mary have a choice to say No?

we can never know what God "knows", its incomprehensible; however, with our free-will and His Grace, we can know His Will.

21 posted on 12/11/2008 12:21:10 PM PST by xhrist ("You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. " - C.S. Lewis)
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To: xhrist

I’m sure she thought she did. I believe His will, is what is happening.


22 posted on 12/11/2008 12:28:08 PM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: stuartcr
I believe in real Good and real Evil in our world...and our free will to make choices...God has given us a clear path to follow His Will

"I believe His will, is what is happening."
You have no say in the matter? So it's completely out of you're hands whether you are on his naughty or nice list come the end times? Hard to rectify a concept that if you 'think' your 'saved', you get a free ride your whole life regardless of personal actions.

23 posted on 12/11/2008 12:50:52 PM PST by xhrist ("You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. " - C.S. Lewis)
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To: NYer
The Church has been deeply blessed by having Benedict as pope...

He is bringing much clarity to the muddled mess that Vatican II brought about.

I've falling in love with his writings, I'm on my 2nd book of his..I wish I'd have found them 20 years ago.

24 posted on 12/11/2008 1:03:21 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: xhrist

I do not believe in the end times. I do not believe anyone gets a free ride, as we are all subject to the laws and mores of when and where we live.


25 posted on 12/11/2008 1:05:33 PM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: stuartcr
I do not believe in the end times. I do not believe anyone gets a free ride, as we are all subject to the laws and mores of when and where we live.

Your non-belief may make you feel better but it doesn't change the Truth because it is immutable.

26 posted on 12/11/2008 1:54:05 PM PST by frogjerk (Welcome|Goodbye to|from Free|Fairness Doctrine Republic!)
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To: stuartcr
wow, no end times for you...
being immortal would certainly take care of any concerns regarding free-will indiscretions...
27 posted on 12/11/2008 2:15:15 PM PST by xhrist ("You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. " - C.S. Lewis)
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To: TASMANIANRED
The Church has been deeply blessed by having Benedict as pope... He is bringing much clarity to the muddled mess that Vatican II brought about.

You are absolutely correct! He is a veritable gift to the Church. Following his election I recall hearing a radio dj refer to him as 'an interim pope'. Nothing could be farther from the truth. As Catholics we believe and know that the Holy Spirit chooses the successor to Peter. Thank you for the comments!

28 posted on 12/11/2008 4:40:37 PM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: frogjerk

If what you believe is the truth, then that is correct.


29 posted on 12/11/2008 6:02:39 PM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: xhrist

Sorry, I didn’t know that by the end times, you met our individual death. That I do believe in.


30 posted on 12/11/2008 6:04:05 PM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: stuartcr
Not sure there really is any difference between your(our) end time and the world's end times, seeing either way the body will be dead ...

by your own comment,"I believe His will, is what is happening."...
So what of Your Soul at your death? What might His Will be then?

God is clear as to what his 'expectations' are for each of our inevitable ends.

31 posted on 12/12/2008 11:43:54 AM PST by xhrist ("You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. " - C.S. Lewis)
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To: xhrist

I do not know God’s will.


32 posted on 12/12/2008 12:14:50 PM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: NYer

Bookmark for later reading.


33 posted on 12/12/2008 1:01:06 PM PST by little jeremiah (Leave illusion, come to the truth. Leave the darkness, come to the light.)
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To: stuartcr
hmmm...so you believe God's Will might be that you are to end up going to Hell? of no fault of your own? with no possibility of redemption..

your initial post mused, why God would put the snake and apple tree here, if He knew what was to come.
I guess the bigger question is,
Why did He put YOU here,
if He knew what you were going to do anyways?

34 posted on 12/12/2008 1:07:36 PM PST by xhrist ("You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. " - C.S. Lewis)
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To: xhrist

I don’t believe there is a hell.

I believe only God knows why we are here. I figure that’s His business and I really don’t have a need to know. I’m just thankful He made me and my life the way He did.


35 posted on 12/12/2008 3:54:31 PM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: stuartcr
well, you have successfully answered your own question of
'Why God would put the snake and apple tree here..'

"that’s His business and you really don’t have a need to know"

36 posted on 12/12/2008 4:05:54 PM PST by xhrist ("You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body. " - C.S. Lewis)
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To: xhrist

I guess that means you don’t know either, thanks and Merry Christmas.


37 posted on 12/12/2008 5:16:55 PM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: NYer

bumpus ad summum


38 posted on 12/12/2008 7:49:58 PM PST by Dajjal (Obama is an Ericksonian NLP hypnotist.)
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