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Is evolution fact?
http://www.rbc.org/devotionals/our-daily-bread/2005/08/04/devotion.aspx ^

Posted on 12/14/2008 8:37:32 AM PST by tpanther

Strength For The Journey New Creation People Part 1 August 4, 2005 Is Evolution A Fact?

READ: Genesis 2:1-7, Hebrews 11:1-3

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. —Hebrews 11:3The theory of evolution is not without its problems. One scientist says this about life starting on its own: "Amino acids would have to be arranged in an exact sequence to form a protein . . . just like the letters in a sentence. Mere laws of chemistry and physics cannot do that. The probability of a protein forming by chance would be 1064 [10 with 64 zeros after it] to 1!"

Many people assume the theory of evolution to be true. But can it be scientifically proven? Something is considered scientifically true only if it can be repeatedly verified under laboratory conditions. The claim that life sprang up on its own out of a long impersonal process cannot pass this test of truth. That is why evolution remains only a theory.

So if you're ever tempted to doubt the Genesis account of the creation story, consider the alternative. The odds against even a simple protein creating itself are astronomical. How much more reasonable to believe God and His Word: "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible" (Hebrews 11:3).

Isn't it more reasonable to believe that God designed and created the universe? (Genesis 1:1). — Dennis Fisher

All things bright and beautiful, All creatures great and small, All things wise and wonderful— The Lord God made them all. —Alexander

All creation points to the almighty Creator.


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: evolution
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1 posted on 12/14/2008 8:37:32 AM PST by tpanther
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To: MrB; metmom; Elsie; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; GodGunsGuts; valkyry1; Fichori; Ethan Clive Osgoode; ...

A wonderful Sunday greetings to all of you!


2 posted on 12/14/2008 8:39:56 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther

The Lord works in myterious ways.

If he decides he wants to use evolution as his method, who are we to argue with his intentions.


3 posted on 12/14/2008 8:45:24 AM PST by Vaquero ( "an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Vaquero

He cannot use evolution, as the term is used today. Evolution assumes some kind of undirected (important!) abiogenesis to produce the first living organism, then additional undirected (important!) natural selection arising from random mutations to every living thing (plant and animal) that exists today (common descent). If God exists, then existence is dependent upon Him and nothing, by definition, is therefore undirected. Mutually exclusive.


4 posted on 12/14/2008 8:56:41 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Vaquero
The Lord works in myterious ways.

If he decides he wants to use evolution as his method, who are we to argue with his intentions.

Right now the argument is being poisoned by people with anti-God socio-pathologies.They harm evolution much more than they help it.

5 posted on 12/14/2008 9:02:44 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Dutchboy88

Exactly, if anything about evolution is valid in God’s creation and this is what He uses, evolution in itself would BE intelligent design.


6 posted on 12/14/2008 9:05:59 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: tpanther
It is gratifying that so many religious people take an interest in science.

Now if only they would learn something about it...

But that may be asking too much, as Heinlein so eloquently phrased it:


Belief gets in the way of learning.

Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973


7 posted on 12/14/2008 9:09:39 AM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: tpanther

“The probability of a protein forming by chance would be 1064 [10 with 64 zeros after it] to 1!”

This is not a good argument, because both a lot of chance is involved, and the patterns that they form are mathematically derived. A good comparison is to say that it would be very unlikely that carbon atoms would form a molecule in the shape of a soccer ball. But they do, because they can readily assemble into that kind of shape, and when they do, it is very stable. So once it happens, 64 carbon atoms tend to stay that way.

Amino acids also tend to form patterns like that. And once they do, they tend to form patterns that can be duplicated by other, independent amino acids, that affix themselves to the first pattern and form a mirror image.

The zinger is a huge amount of time for this to take place. From the time they can do this, to the time they actually pull it off and make a complex protein, may be a couple of billion years or more.

Eventually you end up with a complex protein, best described as looking like a steel wool pad, made up of a great number of compression and tension springs. It can be stretched out into a single wire, but when you let go, it consistently reassembles into the exact same pad of steel wool.

The odds of it coming together spontaneously are tiny, this is true. But over a vast length of time, and a lot of trial and error, less so.


8 posted on 12/14/2008 9:16:15 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: tpanther
Is evolution fact?

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

No, it isn't.

Yes it is. Dinosaurs.

No, it isn't. Birds.

Yes, it is. Fossils.

No, it isn't. God.

Yes, it is. God made it all including evolution.

No, it isn't. Bible.

There. The thread should be finished.

9 posted on 12/14/2008 9:16:47 AM PST by raybbr (It's going to get a lot worse now that the anchor babies are voting!)
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To: Dutchboy88

Not according to my HS biology teacher, a Marist Brother in the Catholic HS I went to.

We Catholics, have absolutly no problem separating science from religion. We can believe in the Lord and still follow science, at least science that is grounded in fact and not crap like the global warming fraud.


10 posted on 12/14/2008 9:23:25 AM PST by Vaquero ( "an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: raybbr

You left out some of the most compelling components:

NEA
Godless liberals
ACLU
courts
acitivst liberal judges

vs. normal people.


11 posted on 12/14/2008 9:34:00 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Coyoteman

Indeed the religious people that deny God despite all the evidence are ruining it for everyone.

As I pointed out, socio-pathological cultists have hijacked evolution to the point no one recognizes it anymore, including above all themselves.


12 posted on 12/14/2008 9:37:12 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Coyoteman

I like Robert Heinlein. His book “Stranger In A Strange Land” is one of my favorite books.


13 posted on 12/14/2008 9:47:48 AM PST by proudofthesouth (In spite of what's going on in the world, God is still in control.)
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To: tpanther
The odds against even a simple protein creating itself are astronomical.

Strawman. Automatic [auto-F]

F

14 posted on 12/14/2008 9:54:12 AM PST by RightWhale (We were so young two years ago and the DJIA was 12,000)
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To: tpanther

Evolution is completely and fully compatible with Christianity.


15 posted on 12/14/2008 9:54:31 AM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: tpanther

Abiogenesis is highly improbable. I think evolution is highly improbable too. It makes sense that natural selection occurs in a conservative sense. Three legged deer, and myopic eagles are unlikely to survive. But what are the odds that an error in reproduction will lead to improvement? Very low.

The best evidence for evolution seems to be with viruses and bacteria. New strains of bacteria arise that are resistant to antibiotics. This suggests that a new and improved strain has arisen by chance and selection. But it’s my understanding that once antibiotics are removed, the new strain is out-competed by earlier strains. So there was no unambiguous improvement after all. This is like the sickle cell mutation that helps people resist malaria. Absent malaria, the mutation is simply harmful.

I think the comparison between global warming and evolution is apt. The science is not settled in either case, despite the fact that many loud voices insist that it is settled. True science thrives on independent thinking, not publicly funded consensus and mass produced opinion.


16 posted on 12/14/2008 9:55:57 AM PST by ChessExpert (The Dow was at 12,400 when Democrats took control of Congress. What is it today?)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: tpanther
By faith we understand

Faith isn't science.

Something is considered scientifically true only if it can be repeatedly verified under laboratory conditions.

So, then, all of astrophysics is invalid? If someone has repeatedly created a star under laboratory conditions, I missed the memo.

That is why evolution remains only a theory.

In such sketchy company as gravity.

18 posted on 12/14/2008 10:20:08 AM PST by ReignOfError
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To: tpanther
God creates, His creations evolve.

An elegant solution.

19 posted on 12/14/2008 10:22:45 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Dutchboy88
Evolution assumes some kind of undirected (important!) abiogenesis to produce the first living organism

False. Evolution is a process by which one form of life becomes another. It is not concerned with the origins of life. Evolutionary theory does not state that the process is "undirected" -- only that no external supernatural force is required to explain observed phenomena.

If a sparrow falls, we may determine that it expired due to natural and well-understood biological causes, and that it fell because the force of gravity drew it to the nearest massive object, which we call Earth. Did God mean for the sparrow to fall? That is something science can neither prove nor disprove, and thus does not concern itself with.

20 posted on 12/14/2008 10:25:14 AM PST by ReignOfError
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To: tpanther

I wish people would not confound evolution per se with a theory of evolution (like Darwin’s original, long since replace with the more refined neo-Darwinian synthesis, or Lamark’s long since discredited at the gross morphological level, though there are hints at a possible Lamarkian mechanism at the biochemical level).

Evolution is the undoubted fact that allele frequencies change over time. What may be debated is whether the neo-Darwinian synthesis provides a complete account of this phenomenon and suffices to explain speciation completely. What should be doubted by all, and flatly rejected by theists of every persuasion, is the adduction of atheism from a naturalistic account of biological diversity.


21 posted on 12/14/2008 10:26:34 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: RightWhale

You have evidence of a single protein creating itself?


22 posted on 12/14/2008 10:32:17 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: proudofthesouth
I like Robert Heinlein. His book “Stranger In A Strange Land” is one of my favorite books.

++++++++++++

It has been a long time since I read that.

Isn't that the story where the spirits of the dead Martians sent the spirit of the dead Earthlings back to earth so they could be reincarnated?

Or am I thinking of another of his stories?

23 posted on 12/14/2008 10:35:20 AM PST by fproy2222
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To: tpanther

Ad hominem fallacy


24 posted on 12/14/2008 10:39:37 AM PST by RightWhale (We were so young two years ago and the DJIA was 12,000)
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To: ReignOfError

False. Evolution is a process by which one form of life becomes another. It is not concerned with the origins of life.

Debunked too many times to count, most recently right here:

post # 310

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2145556/posts?q=1&;page=301


25 posted on 12/14/2008 10:41:55 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: RightWhale

huh?


26 posted on 12/14/2008 10:43:20 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Dutchboy88

What many theistic evolutionists fail to understand. Neo-Darwinism entirely discounts the supernatural. A Supreme Being, according to the neo-Darwinist, has no more relivance than Santa Claus or the Boogyman visa vis the creation of the Universe.


27 posted on 12/14/2008 10:44:03 AM PST by attiladhun2 (Obama is the anti-Reagan, he believes government is the solution, rather than the problem)
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To: Vaquero

Your response does not merit an answer


28 posted on 12/14/2008 11:01:57 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: fproy2222

Isn’t that the story where the spirits of the dead Martians sent the spirit of the dead Earthlings back to earth so they could be reincarnated?

Or am I thinking of another of his stories?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Perhaps you’re thinking about some book from Jos. Smith.


29 posted on 12/14/2008 11:03:33 AM PST by Gamecock ("...Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" and both to Americans.)
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To: tpanther

It would not, then, be “Evolution”. It would be evolution by intelligent design.


30 posted on 12/14/2008 11:03:33 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: ReignOfError

Reread my post.


31 posted on 12/14/2008 11:04:24 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; tpanther
“It would not, then, be “Evolution”. It would be evolution by intelligent design.”
Or maybe variation within a kind.

At least thats something we can actually test and observe.
32 posted on 12/14/2008 11:17:30 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: Dutchboy88
Your response does not merit an answer

good comeback!

33 posted on 12/14/2008 11:20:14 AM PST by Vaquero ( "an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Dutchboy88
Reread my post.

What's going to be there that wasn't there the first time? Evolution does not depend on abiogenesis, nor require that the process be undirected.

34 posted on 12/14/2008 11:23:56 AM PST by ReignOfError
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To: tpanther

That’s not a debunking. It’s a statement that a couple of biologists who believe(d) in evolution also supported a hypotheses of abiogenesis. Many biologists believe in both evolution and God. One does not invalidate the other.


35 posted on 12/14/2008 11:26:20 AM PST by ReignOfError
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To: tpanther
Theistic evolutionism severely undermines the Christian understanding of God and man's place in his universe.
1) It is an inefficient and often totally ineffective mechanism
2) It is a blind and cruel method of creating man
3)The story of the fall of man would be nothing more than allegory, and would undermine the significance of Christ's sinless life and sacrificial death on the cross.
4)If evolution happened, then a tremendous amount of death occurred before man evolved. But, if death preceded man and was not a result of Adam's sin, then sin is a fiction. If sin is a fiction, then we have no need for a Savior.
36 posted on 12/14/2008 11:27:39 AM PST by mjp (Live & let live. I don't want to live in Mexico, Marxico, or Muslimico. Statism & high taxes suck)
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To: ReignOfError; Dutchboy88; Ethan Clive Osgoode
“What's going to be there that wasn't there the first time? Evolution does not depend on abiogenesis, nor require that the process be undirected.”
LoL!

Darwinian Evolution does not require the process to be undirected?

In his work on the Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication, he [Darwin] takes for granted, that no sensible person would believe, that God ordained the variations of the crop and tail feathers of the pigeon, or the variations of the frame, and mental qualities of the dog. "But," he says, "if we give up the principle in one case, no shadow of reason can be assigned for the belief, that variations, which have been the groundwork through Natural Selection of the most perfectly adapted animals in the world, man included, were intentionally and specially guided."

Again, speaking against the idea that the detail of structure was made for the good of its possessor, he says: "Some believe that many structures have been created for the sake of beauty, to delight men or the Creator, or for the sake of mere variety, such doctrines, if true, would he absolutely fatal to my theory." [ref]


37 posted on 12/14/2008 11:38:37 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: mjp

Besides, Rev. Darwin would have a cow if he ever heard that people had turned his purely undirected naturalistic process into a God directed process.


38 posted on 12/14/2008 11:42:21 AM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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To: ReignOfError

You can’t have it both ways, either evolutionists DO address origins or the godless liberal NEA evo-atheists should stop suing to silence dissenters of the cult of evolution/creationists.


39 posted on 12/14/2008 11:43:11 AM PST by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing---Edmund Burke)
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To: Vaquero
If he decides he wants to use evolution as his method, who are we to argue with his intentions.

those aren't HIS intentions, those are your intentions...

God says he didn't use evolution...You're trying to make a liar out of God...

40 posted on 12/14/2008 1:04:23 PM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: Iscool
God says he didn't use evolution...You're trying to make a liar out of God...

God hasn't spoken to me, has he spoken to you? Or if you mean that long tome that was written by sandal wearing sheep herders and fishermen, then I stand corrected.

42 posted on 12/14/2008 1:30:08 PM PST by Vaquero ( "an armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Gamecock

`

`


43 posted on 12/14/2008 1:31:28 PM PST by fproy2222
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To: fproy2222

Calling me hateful is hateful.


44 posted on 12/14/2008 1:49:46 PM PST by Gamecock ("...Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles" and both to Americans.)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: Coyoteman

“Belief gets in the way of learning.”

Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

Hate to tell you this, buddy boy, but that’s a sword that cuts both ways.Because of what you BELIEVE (not prove) you Evos are the most close-minded people on planet earth.


48 posted on 12/14/2008 5:02:07 PM PST by Robwin
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To: Vaquero
God says he didn't use evolution...You're trying to make a liar out of God...

++
The word ‘evolution’ can be used to describe change at different levels or divisions of animals.

I for one believe that there is evolution, change, within each species. Men can even do this by breading dogs, or cats, or flowers, or very hostile bees with honey bees and creating a Killer bee.

I do not believe in evolution from one species to another.

49 posted on 12/14/2008 5:13:46 PM PST by fproy2222
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To: fproy2222
Hey, I couldn't care less about the details, I just thought I'd remind you that this was the RF in case you hadn't noticed or forgot.

Complaining about how someone says something seems rather pathetic.
50 posted on 12/14/2008 5:18:54 PM PST by Fichori (I believe in a Woman's right to choose, even if she hasn't been born yet.)
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