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What actually is going to determine when Jesus returns to earth?
Vanity | Dec 16th, 2008 | TaraP

Posted on 12/16/2008 9:33:18 AM PST by TaraP

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To: Secret Agent Man

You said — “No. God has set the timetable. The time for return was already set before any of us existed, and only God the Father knows it. Because He knows the future before it happens, as God is not constrained in time as we are, the whole premise of ‘waiting’ isn’t quite the same thing.”

Yep! It’s already “pinned down” to the exact second, as to when it will happen — no matter what we will do — *because* God already knows exactly what each one of us is going to do, before we even know it ourselves...

It’s already determined. It’s just that we don’t know it — but God does.


51 posted on 12/16/2008 10:45:15 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: johncocktoasten

You said — “I’m going out on a limb and guessing that Jesus himself will be making that determination.”

Jesus (the Son) says it’s God, the Father, who will tell the Son when it’s time to return...

It’s the example of the bride-groom being told by the Father, when the dwelling place that he’s preparing for his wife is done. When the Father says that it’s done, then it’s time for the bride-groom to come back and “pick up” his wife. The bride-groom does not make that determination himself...

Since the church is the “bride of Christ” — Christ awaits the Father’s determination as to when He can “pick up” His bride (i.e., “the church”). That’s called “the Rapture.” And He comes to take His bride back to the dwelling place that He has made for her. She is sequestered for 7 days (a “type” for the seven years of Tribulation)...

The following is one account of Jewish marriage customs, which forms our “type” for the church as the Bride of Christ...


Jewish Marriage Customs

Those who live in the modern western world do not catch the full significance of Jesus’ promise. This is due to the fact that in His promise Jesus was drawing an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Since this is so, those marriage customs must be examined if one is to grasp the significance of the promise.

The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal. Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus’ time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative. The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father’s house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride. Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife. From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom. As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.

After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father’s house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months. This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and to prepare for married life. The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father’s house to which he could bring his bride.

At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom’s father’s house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride. Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming. As a result the groom’s arrival would be preceded by a shout. This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom.

After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride’s home to the groom’s father’s house. Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already.

Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face. While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.

After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guests. Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven days.

During the seven days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called “the seven days of the huppah,” the bride remained hidden in the bridal chamber. At the conclusion of these seven days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.


If you understand this from the Jews, then you’ll understand a lot about the Church as the Bride of Christ and how that works out...


52 posted on 12/16/2008 10:55:12 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: weef

You said — “I’ve always wondered how the MSM would report the second coming of Christ.”

Ummmm..., probably will say some aliens came in space ships and hauled off a lot of people on this earth. And then they’ll say that we have to get ready for a big battle with these aliens, because they’ll probably try to return again and “take over” our world... LOL...


53 posted on 12/16/2008 10:57:31 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: Swordfished

You said — “Is this even physically possible, given the worldwide birth rate?”

Yes, it’s possible when you have an angel circling the globe, giving everyone the message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...


54 posted on 12/16/2008 10:58:41 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: TaraP

You said — “And with so many many thousand of Jews who do not recognize the Messiah from there Torah and have been presented a Jesus they do not recognize due to persecution over thousand of years, what determines there conversion?”

All are “converted” the same way as any other — in the way that the Apostle Paul said that God counted Abraham righteous (in Romans). In that way, we all come to the righteousness of God, whether it’s before the time of Christ (i.e., “His birth” that is... on earth) or after He came to this world (which is our situation, now).

As the Apostle Paul said — “all Israel shall be saved” when it’s the “time of the end” when Jesus comes again. Whomever is left (of Israel) at that time, will see the coming Christ, as He is returning and they (i.e., “all Israel” at that time) will be saved, because at that instant, they all recognize Him as the Messiah.


55 posted on 12/16/2008 11:03:10 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: Star Traveler

Possibly. It’s found in Matt 24:14. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

The issue to figure out is what the phrase “then the end will come” means.

Right after vs 14, Jesus talks about the abomination of desolation which will most likely take place in the middle of the 7 year tribulation. It is not known if those 2 verses are chronological in order, which would mean that “the end” wouldn’t come for another 3.5 years.

We will likely find out soon.

9”Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15”So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.


56 posted on 12/16/2008 11:20:02 AM PST by Kevmo ( It's all over for this Country as a Constitutional Republic. ~Leo Donofrio, 12/14/08)
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To: TaraP
So we know the earth will continue to get worse as we are suffering the birth pains of a fallen world currently.

What you mean "we," pale face?

And how, exactly do you know that our presence in this earth is a matter of total irrelevance, total impotence, and total uselessness? We may as well fold our hands and walk away from the table. No point being in the game, because God Himself has already told us that our efforts are pointless.

12 spies went into Canaan. 10 came back as cheerleaders for the other team.

Caleb and Joshua saw opportunities for God to magnify His faithfulness, keep His promises, and demonstrate His power.

God was not on the side of the "majority report." In fact, those who demoralized and discouraged and undermined God's people suffered immediate judgment. Those who heeded the cowardly spies got to spend the next 40 years walking in circles in the desert.

Is the goal of your "ministry" to make your fellow Christians as useless as you feel yourself to be? Do you really think this pleases God?

57 posted on 12/16/2008 11:29:34 AM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: TaraP

The day will be 3-1/2 years (biblical years)after the abomination of desolation. Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15. No where are we told to watch for the beginning of the last week, only the middle.

Oh, the time will be somewhere between 8:00-9:00PM.

Sorry but that’s as close as I can predict.
JB


58 posted on 12/16/2008 11:30:39 AM PST by thatjoeguy (Just my thoughts)
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To: editor-surveyor
Try looking through the scriptures for support for that theory; it isn't there. The Lord's victories will be his own, not through men.

Try reading all the many ways Psalm 110 is cited in the Bible, including the I Cor. 15 reference I offered.

So God offered His people victories in the OT, but calls us to suck it up and be good losers in the NT? Are you really sure that's what you consider by "good" news? Let me recommend Psalm 95, which is cited several times in the Epistle to the Hebrews: "Today, if you would hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as your fathers did. And their corpses fell in the desert."

Soften your heart towards God, and He may have an encouraging word for you! If you are willing and obedient and trust Him.

59 posted on 12/16/2008 11:34:57 AM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: Iscool
Do you see any that have been kicked??? Looks like Jesus is off to a pretty slow start to butt kicking and putting His enemies under His feet..

Your contempt for the mercies of God are stunning. Scandinavians no longer offer human sacrifices -- but Jesus had nothing to do with that. Oh, no. Britons no longer paint themselves blue and follow idols -- but Jesus had nothing to do with that. Oh, no. We no longer fear instant annihilation from Soviet ICBMs, since Soviet Union is no more -- but Jesus had nothing to do with that. Oh, no. Tetanus, polio, and smallpox are under control, and most children born today can realistically hope to grow up -- but Jesus had nothing to do with that. Oh, no.

OK, so YOUR Jesus has been idle over the last few thousand years. Who do you recommend I offer my thanks to for these mercies?

60 posted on 12/16/2008 11:39:03 AM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: RJR_fan

I sure don’t feel hopeless or useless as a Christian in fact quite the opposite.....

Jesus always spoke of the *Generation* that would be a witness to his return..Are we that generation? not sure, but I do know that only after 1948 when Israel became a nation, do we truly see prophetic events come to light.

Birth Pains.....

Do we see Apostasy in the Church now? yes we sure do.
Do we see many Ladociean Christians on the globe..yep sure do.

Do we see many Scoffers now? Where is the promise of his coming???? Do we see the rise in the Homosexual Agenda, Atheism a world that Jesus said would be a repeat act in the Days of Noah....

Jesus said Look up! for your redemption draws near....

I would think most Christians are very hopeful that Jesus will return in there lifetime, not because they feel *Special* but because they are a witness to a truth that a wicked world will see and hopefully repent and believe.


61 posted on 12/16/2008 11:41:35 AM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Seperation of Church and State)
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To: TaraP

The second coming is at the end of the tribulational period. But Christ coming for his church can occur at any moment.


62 posted on 12/16/2008 11:41:57 AM PST by ColdSteelTalon (America land soon to be of the enslaved...)
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To: TaraP

Whenever .... just keep looking busy ......


63 posted on 12/16/2008 12:06:21 PM PST by SkyDancer ("Talent Without Ambition Is Sad, Ambition Without Talent Is Worse")
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To: Owl_Eagle

“I want to see Branson this summer.”

Be sure to take alot of spending money! NOTHING is cheap there.


64 posted on 12/16/2008 12:16:11 PM PST by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: weef
I’ve always wondered how the MSM would report the second coming of Christ.

You weren't following the election? ;-)

65 posted on 12/16/2008 12:24:54 PM PST by fanfan (Update on Constitutional Crisis in Canada.....Click user name)
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To: TaraP

That is easy, a fixed time is set in motion after the “Man of sin” the “Son of perdition”, the antichrist if you prefer, is revealed, setting himself on Christs throne AS Christ himself.. Until then, we know the season, but not the hour.


66 posted on 12/16/2008 12:25:54 PM PST by dabluesman
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To: TaraP
Jesus always spoke of the *Generation* that would be a witness to his return..Are we that generation? not sure, but I do know that only after 1948 when Israel became a nation, do we truly see prophetic events come to light.

Actually, the "this generation" he was speaking TO was the "this generation" He was speaking OF. Kinda like John in Rev. 1:1-3 talks about events that will happen "soon" and "shortly." Throughout most of the church's history, the consensus held that the Olivet Discourse was prophecy to those Jesus addressed, and fulfilled prophecy to us who read it so many years later. These prophecies used the prophetic vocabulary of the whole Bible to describe, with great precision, the events of the seven-year Jewish War, our Lord's coming "with clouds," that is, with visible and spectacular judgment upon "Egypt" and "Sodom," and "Babylon," code words for reprobate Jerusalem.

When I want to read fantasy, the late Arthur C. Clarke or Isaac Asimov oblige. Orson Scott Card writes a competent novel and even deals fairly with people of faith. Too bad he's a Mormon! Michael Flynn, a Catholic writer in my genre of choice, is a practicing Christian of the Catholic flavor. These novelists offer harmless entertainment. The fantastical writings of the doomsayers in the early 70s, in contrast, aborted the Jesus Movement, diverting a wonderful awakening into the pathetic, puerile, banal and inane lunacy of fortune-telling. It was no longer enough to know the One who held the future; we had to figure out what the future held. (Parenthetically, it's interesting to note how the most famous "prophecy" writer recycles his books and marriages as each is overtaken by time. Same plots, new faces. He's on wife #4 at last count ... )

The fortune tellers and doomsayers who use God's glorious record of fulfilled prophecy as a club for beating down the hopes of their fellow saints are adding up quite a bit they'll have to answer to the Master for. It's just not safe to put a whole lot of energy into cheering on the other team. You are impugning the power, the goodness, and the wisdom of the Creator when you assert with such dogmatic certitude that the normal means for fulfilling the Great Commission are ultimately futile.

67 posted on 12/16/2008 12:45:59 PM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: TaraP

It isn’t for us to know and it most certainly isn’t for us to worry about. Our individual end in this world can come at anytime so we have to live and do our best in God’s service at all times.


68 posted on 12/16/2008 2:20:41 PM PST by Flying Circus
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To: TaraP

Hopefully the day before Obambi’s inaugaration .


69 posted on 12/16/2008 4:15:17 PM PST by sushiman
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To: springtime4hillary; TaraP; caseinpoint; Kevmo; Star Traveler; Quix
Maybe, since we aren’t out there winning souls the way we should, His coming IS delayed. Let’s get off our keesters, and get out of here.

"Americans pay as much for pet food every 52 days as they spend annually for foreign missions." Ralph Winter (US Center for World Missions)

As further Scriptural evidence for the idea that every people-group will be reached, consider Rev. 5:9-10:
"...you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

70 posted on 12/16/2008 5:29:53 PM PST by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: Star Traveler

It’s been said, “Israel is God’s timepiece”, as indicated in Matt 23:37-39, Lev 26:40-42, Jer 3:11-18, and Zech 12:10.

Mat 23:39
(39) For I say unto you (Israel), Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

In another fashion, in direct answer to the question: what determines Jesus’ return to earth, technically every believer in fellowship with God through faith in Christ in the Church Age is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit, who provides a temple for the indwelling of Jesus Christ who is one with the Father. Today, for the believer, He is in us and us with Him when we are occupied with Christ while filled with the Holy Spirit.


71 posted on 12/16/2008 6:04:25 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: TaraP
Do you think the Father is waiting on us? rather than us waiting on him to return to earth?

Doesn't matter. You and everyone else will know when it happens.

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

72 posted on 12/16/2008 8:29:45 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: RJR_fan; TaraP
Actually, the "this generation" he was speaking TO was the "this generation" He was speaking OF.

Well put.

73 posted on 12/16/2008 8:34:33 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: Cvengr; Star Traveler; RJR_fan
It’s been said, “Israel is God’s timepiece”,

If that's true, then for most folks the watch is broken.

74 posted on 12/16/2008 8:35:52 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: TaraP; RJR_fan
but I do know that only after 1948 when Israel became a nation, do we truly see prophetic events come to light.

Give us a "for instance".

75 posted on 12/16/2008 8:44:24 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54
If that's true, then for most folks the watch is broken.

Can you imagine the vast energies that will be released for evangelism, for world missions, for high achievement in all the legitimate arts and sciences, when dispensationalism finally goes the way of Soviet Communism? An absurd "lunatic fringe" notion only believed and propagated in protected, isolated, irrelevant enclaves? Like a few American universities and "Bible" colleges?

O Lord, haste that glorious day, when your people have their heads extracted from an unpleasant place, to look upon your heavens and your earth with grateful awe! When your people rejoice to embrace their opportunities, and their responsibilities!

Winners and lovers shape the future.

Whiners and losers try to predict it.


76 posted on 12/17/2008 1:14:25 AM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: TaraP
May I suggest a book to read? GLOBAL WARNING by Tim LaHaye and Ed Hinson. This no doubt the best book I have ever read on the second coming and where we stand in this event.
77 posted on 12/17/2008 8:39:06 AM PST by gulfcoast6 (GOD FIRST, THEN US!)
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To: topcat54; RJR_fan

May 14, 1948-(Midnight, Iyar 6)(’Pentecost’ on 360 Calendar)

Israel
Ezekiel measured the visionary temple in Ezekiel 40 unto 1948 when Israel became a nation again are 1260 plus 1260 years.

573 BC Nisan 10, plus 1260-times-two years = AD 1948 Pentecost
What is significant about Israel becoming a nation in 1948?

Ans. It fulfilled such prophecies as Ezekiel 36 and 37 and heralded the soon end of the age. Palestine was a desert land before Israel recently made it “like the garden of Eden.”

Ezekiel 36:33-35 (ASV) Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded. And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, whereas it was a desolation in the sight of all that passed by. And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited

Bible says a believing remnant will recognize their Messiah from Scripture (Messiah) and will call upon His Name (Messiah’s return).

The Bible then tells us ‘after these things’ the little nation of Israel and the children of Israel will rule over all nations on Earth under her King and Messiah Jesus Christ (Yeshua Ha’Mashiach in Hebrew).

The Bible says all of the covenants, promises, curses, prophecies, and blessings God has made to the children and nation of Israel will be fulfilled...

Before 1948- NO one could truly understand prophetic times when Jesus spok of the *Last Generation* to be a witness to this...
MATTHEW 24
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


78 posted on 12/17/2008 8:42:54 AM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Seperation of Church and State)
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To: TaraP; RJR_fan
Ezekiel measured the visionary temple in Ezekiel 40 unto 1948 when Israel became a nation again are 1260 plus 1260 years. Where does this 1260 plus 1260 years computation come from in the Bible.

573 BC Nisan 10,

What is the significance of that date from the Bible?

It appears you can only get to 1948 by masterful feats of mathematical and chronological sleight-of-hand.

It fulfilled such prophecies as Ezekiel 36 and 37 and heralded the soon end of the age. Bottom line, without spiritualizing there is no way Ezekiel matches modern Israel.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And that does not apply to modern Israel either. It applies to the 1st century inhabitants of Jerusalem who witnessed its destruction at the hands of the Roman army.

There is absolutely no prophecy in the Bible that can be pinned to Israel circa 1948.

79 posted on 12/17/2008 9:18:41 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: TaraP; RJR_fan
Sorry. The last post got a bit messed up. It should read:

Ezekiel measured the visionary temple in Ezekiel 40 unto 1948 when Israel became a nation again are 1260 plus 1260 years. Where does this 1260 plus 1260 years computation come from in the Bible.

573 BC Nisan 10,

What is the significance of that date from the Bible?

It appears you can only get to 1948 by masterful feats of mathematical and chronological sleight-of-hand.

It fulfilled such prophecies as Ezekiel 36 and 37 and heralded the soon end of the age.

No, it did not. Those passages in Ezekiel are plainly speaking of spiritual revival and renewal. No such activity of that sort is even remotely happening in modern Israel. Hey are still in darkness and unbelief and even persecute to some degree the true sons of God.

Bottom line, without spiritualizing there is no way Ezekiel matches modern Israel.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And that does not apply to modern Israel either. It applies to the 1st century inhabitants of Jerusalem who witnessed its destruction at the hands of the Roman army.

There is absolutely no prophecy in the Bible that can be pinned to Israel circa 1948.

80 posted on 12/17/2008 9:20:20 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: gulfcoast6; TaraP; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy
May I suggest a book to read? GLOBAL WARNING by Tim LaHaye and Ed Hinson. This no doubt the best book I have ever read on the second coming and where we stand in this event.

This is an excellent book if you already accept the futurist agenda hook, line, and sinker. It makes current events come alive because it is written from the perspective of … well, current events.

Serious Bible students be warned. Lots more of the same old same old, just with a new cover.

Under the heading of “Where are we now?” they write, “What is now more clear than ever is that we have taken a quantum leap toward the fulfillment of the biblical prophecy of the last days. The stage is now being set for the final climatic act in the long history of the human drama. Things could not have been arranged more perfectly for the fulfillment of the prophecies of the end times” (p. 56)

“More clear than ever?” No wonder Chuck Smith, Hal Lindsey and Edgar Whisenant got it all wrong in the 1970s. Current events were not clear enough. Oh, sure. They had the Soviets Union to work with. What an ominous boogeyman?! But the Soviets are gone bye-bye. Then there was the Chinese with their phantom army of 200 million on horseback waiting to cross the Euphrates. Oops, turns out there are no enough horses in the entire world to field such an army.

The eschatological futurist boogeymen of the 1970s have been replaced with the eschatological boogeymen of this decade. No doubt they will change again in 10 or 20 years.

Perhaps LaHaye and Hinson have fixed all those mistakes.

81 posted on 12/17/2008 9:46:52 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54
It appears you can only get to 1948 by masterful feats of mathematical and chronological sleight-of-hand.

Seen it. It struck me as, they knew where they wanted to get, and tweaked the assumptions until they got it.

(A year change would muck everything up. Chuck Missler thinks the length of year changed, somewhere in the low 700s BC, when Mars did a close passby of Earth (~70000 miles). I kid you not. It was on one of his podcasts in the last month.)

82 posted on 12/17/2008 10:43:32 AM PST by Lee N. Field (Dispensational exegesis not supported by an a-, post- or historic pre-mil scholar will be ignored.)
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To: topcat54

Where is your scriptual evidence to your statements?

Jesus is coming back to set his Millenial Kingdom up in Israel. he spoke of the Jews and Diaspora....

THe Anti-Christ will sign a 7 yr Peace treaty with Israel.

This could not happen before 1948 so it is Biblical Scripture.


83 posted on 12/17/2008 11:01:09 AM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Seperation of Church and State)
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To: topcat54; gulfcoast6; TaraP; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy
The eschatological futurist boogeymen of the 1970s have been replaced with the eschatological boogeymen of this decade. No doubt they will change again in 10 or 20 years.

When God kindly, sovereignly, and graciously discredited Soviet communism, I saw no signs of gratitude from those embittered die-hard failures, the futurists. Instead, they frantically began searching heaven and earth to find other boogeymen to cower/grovel before.

This ingratitude, this contempt for God's mercies, has pretty well discredited the fortune-tellers.

At this point in history, the Gospel has several major-league opponents. The ones we have to deal with are secular humanism, and Islam. The vast majority of Christians are already compromised, and "in bed with" secular humanism. Which might explain why there's more of a market for excuses than there is for solutions. After all, if God Himself has already ordained that the future belongs to antichrist, why not send our kids to antichristian schools, in order to prepare them for antichrist's world? The people of faith and hope, however, do not support public education. They undermine secular humanism by starving it of the one resource it craves above all others, the hearts, minds, souls, and bodies of our children.

Question: Suppose God dealt with Islam as swiftly and decisively as He dealt with Soviet communism. Would we be ready for that opportunity? In 1945, Douglas MacArthur begged America to send 10,000 missionaries to Japan. What he got was engineers. The opportunity was squandered, and today Japan is one of the most secular nations on earth. We did a little better when the Soviet bloc fell. Our missionaries hit the streets of Kiev at about the same time as the pornographers.

Let me make a prediction. Unlike our friends the doomsayers, cowardly spies, and fortune tellers, I am NOT willing to write off a billion of our fellow creatures. I AM praying for the fall of Islam. And taking steps to organize my life, studies, and actions in term of those hopes.

My prediction

When Islam falls, many Christians of faith and courage (i.e. -- post-millenial) will be ready, with a grasp on the Christian world view, and on the language and culture of a Muslim society. The doomsayers will miss the door of opportunity, and start trying to cobble together another boogeyman to cower/grovel before. Fortunately for the gospel, the cause of Christ, the glory of God, and the blessings of humanity, there will probably be a lot fewer of these disgraceful ingrates.
84 posted on 12/17/2008 11:45:33 AM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: RJR_fan
When God kindly, sovereignly, and graciously discredited Soviet communism, I saw no signs of gratitude from those embittered die-hard failures, the futurists. Instead, they frantically began searching heaven and earth to find other boogeymen to cower/grovel before. This ingratitude, this contempt for God's mercies, has pretty well discredited the fortune-tellers....

....When Islam falls, many Christians of faith and courage (i.e. -- post-millenial) will be ready, with a grasp on the Christian world view, and on the language and culture of a Muslim society. The doomsayers will miss the door of opportunity, and start trying to cobble together another boogeyman to cower/grovel before. Fortunately for the gospel, the cause of Christ, the glory of God, and the blessings of humanity, there will probably be a lot fewer of these disgraceful ingrates.

Amen, RJR_fan!

85 posted on 12/17/2008 11:50:58 AM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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To: TaraP; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field; Alex Murphy
Where is your scriptual evidence to your statements?

What specifically would you like to know?

Jesus is coming back to set his Millenial Kingdom up in Israel. he spoke of the Jews and Diaspora....

Jesus is presently reigning in His Kingdom bringing all things into submission, and we are reigning with Him. We are in the thousand years of Rev. 20.

26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. (Matt. 12)

To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (Rev. 1:5,6)

Satan’s house is being plundered because the “strong man” (Satan) has been bound. The nations are coming under the dominion of the King of kings.
" All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt. 28)

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. (1 Cor. 15)

His present reign is also over God’s holy nation:
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. … 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2)
THe Anti-Christ will sign a 7 yr Peace treaty with Israel.

Nothing in the Bible to support that notion. The idea is based on a misreading of Daniel 9 and an invention of futurists called the gap theory. I would like to see you exegete any passage in the Bible to prove this imaginary peace treaty.

This could not happen before 1948 so it is Biblical Scripture.

Again, that is another futurist assumption that is not actually taught in the Bible. 1948 has no prophetic significance. Nada, zero, zippo.

86 posted on 12/17/2008 12:11:40 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: TaraP; RJR_fan
So we know the earth will continue to get worse as we are suffering the birth pains of a fallen world currently.

Since we have overcome death by the Blood of the Lamb, haven’t we (Believers) already achieved *Victory*?

Premillenialists believe that the ratio of wheat to tares will progressively change in the tare's favor. The Great Commission is fulfilled in history only in the sense of being preached to all nations (but positive returns on preaching, i.e. conversions, will steadily and progressively decline, as will the prospects for raising up Godly progeny). The gates of Hell will progressively prevail against His church, leading to a Great Tribulation and Armageddon where the AntiChrist holds sway and influence over every soul on the planet, and Christ's enemies progressively wield influence, achieving a decisive victory by the apex of history. They are unable to be defeated until Christ returns physically to kick their collective keisters. Pretrib/Premillers tell us that "Jesus already has the victory", but only a victory that fails to manifest itself within history, contrary to Psalm 110, Matthew 13, Matthew 18, Matthew 28, etc etc etc).

While Christ personally may "have the victory", Christ's church will eventually lose all impact and influence as history progresses. It should then come as no surprise that the church ultimately disappears entirely (the rapture), having used up whatever opportunities it was given, and having "left behind" nothing of lasting value in return.

I have to wonder whether the premillers are expecting greater things of the wheat, or the tares?

87 posted on 12/17/2008 12:42:32 PM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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To: topcat54; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field
Has it occured to anyone else that Jesus might be delaying His Coming, as long as end-time speculative book sales remain profitable for dispensationalists?

Some related threads:
Publishing Armageddon
Snatching Up End-Time Books
Left behind? Not this book series

88 posted on 12/17/2008 12:58:47 PM PST by Alex Murphy ( "Every country has the government it deserves" - Joseph Marie de Maistre)
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To: Alex Murphy; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field
Has it occured to anyone else that Jesus might be delaying His Coming, as long as end-time speculative book sales remain profitable for dispensationalists?

He certainly must have a sense of humor, allowing these dispensationalists to rewrite their speculative pulp fiction every time world events change. And He manages to keep changing things up.

Maybe this is His way of sifting the believers. The clueless ones keep rewriting their books, while the thinking ones finally give up on dispensationalism for covenant theology.

89 posted on 12/17/2008 1:37:02 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: Alex Murphy; topcat54; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field

GOD’s heavenly Kingdom will rein on earth....
That is what is meant: Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done in heaven and on earth.

The Millenial Kingdom will come down on earth with all the saints.....

Since the earth will de destroyed by fire, (melted) the New Earth will emerge.

It is my understanding we as (Believers will live among the Lord in the New Jerusalem) the un-saved will still be on the earth, and will not be allowed into the gates. (Kingdom) When the wicked is finally destroyed they will be cast down to hell (Below the earth...)


90 posted on 12/17/2008 1:48:02 PM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Seperation of Church and State)
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To: TaraP; topcat54; RJR_fan

Many of these issues can be addressed by this site.

www.geocentricity.com

The Lesser Light-Genesis 1:16


91 posted on 12/17/2008 1:50:36 PM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Seperation of Church and State)
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To: TaraP
I sure don't have a clue, but I do feel that there must be many more attacks against His people here on earth before that time comes.

Nam Vet

92 posted on 12/17/2008 1:51:26 PM PST by Nam Vet (This space for rent............Hard currency only)
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To: topcat54; TaraP
He certainly must have a sense of humor, allowing these dispensationalists to rewrite their speculative pulp fiction every time world events change. And He manages to keep changing things up.

Maybe this is His way of sifting the believers. The clueless ones keep rewriting their books, while the thinking ones finally give up on dispensationalism for covenant theology.

Actually, I suspect the guy who recycles his books and marriages as each is overtaken by time has a clue; he just doesn't care. Same plots, new faces. Currently on wife #4, and I don't know how many times he's recycled his "late, great" book. Yet the people at WorldNet Daily, and, sadly, too many people here, still consider him to be a reputable scholar. They somehow expect him to be more faithful to God, and to his readers, than he's been to his marriages.

93 posted on 12/17/2008 2:11:37 PM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: TaraP; RJR_fan
Many of these issues can be addressed by this site.

What issues? Can you articulate them?

94 posted on 12/17/2008 3:23:48 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: TaraP; Alex Murphy; RJR_fan; Lee N. Field
GOD’s heavenly Kingdom will rein on earth....

Let’s parse this. First of all, kingdoms do not reign. Kings reign, and Christ the King is presently reigning. He is presently reigning over the earth and His subjects (the quick) are on the earth, putting all things in subjection (1 Cor. 15).

That is what is meant: Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done in heaven and on earth.

And that is what has been happening for 2000 years. No delay there.

The Millenial Kingdom will come down on earth with all the saints.....

Do you mean the new Jerusalem? That is what we see coming down from heaven to earth in Rev. 21. The Bible does not speak of a “millennial kingdom”. It does not speak of any spiritual kingdom other than the kingdom of heaven/God (two terms for the same kingdom).

We are presently in the kingdom of heaven/God. Nothing delayed since Christ is on His throne reigning over the nations.

From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.

"My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

Since the earth will de destroyed by fire, (melted) the New Earth will emerge.

2 Peter 3 speaks of the heavens and earth being consumed. From that emerges the new heavens and new earth. This happens when Christ comes as a thief in the night, not one thousands years later. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. " No separate millennium possible.

It is my understanding we as (Believers will live among the Lord in the New Jerusalem) the un-saved will still be on the earth, and will not be allowed into the gates. (Kingdom) When the wicked is finally destroyed they will be cast down to hell (Below the earth...)

The Bible teaches that at Christ’s return, the nations are judged with the righteous going with Christ into the everlasting kingdom (that He has delivered up to the Father) and the unrighteous going into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his minions. The new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth, the consummate kingdom, then occupies all of God’s creation.

95 posted on 12/17/2008 3:48:02 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: topcat54; TaraP

I visited the site. Interesting to read about the crystalline spheres surrounding the stationary, non-rotating Earth.


96 posted on 12/17/2008 6:03:36 PM PST by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: RJR_fan; TaraP

I looked into geocentrism about 15 or 20 years ago and concluded there was nothing worth considering further. See articles by Gary North and James Jordan.


97 posted on 12/17/2008 6:30:34 PM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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To: TaraP
Hell I know the answer to that....

When Jesus decides it time and not a millisecond before

98 posted on 12/17/2008 6:33:17 PM PST by Gone_Postal (We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat)
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To: topcat54; RJR_fan

Topcate,
You quote scripture, that definetly is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..however, IMHO respectful opinion you are a Cherry Picker of the Scriptures...

First Jesus said when he left, ascended back to heaven. He told his apostles that he was going to *prepare* a place for them..
*In my house is many mansions I go to prepare a place for you*

Yes the Kingdom of GOD is within us..He left us his Peace.
However he planned on our dwelling to be a place GOD intended for us to live, from the get-go..The Garden of Eden.

The Firmament...Expanding Universe...That is one thing I did agree from the geocentricity site.

Can you imagine how many people have graced this planet from when it started? How many people are coming back? would there be enough room on this planet the way it is?

I would think not...

One more thing Topcate... What signs did Jesus want us to be aware of when he spoke in Matthew 24? Look up for our redemption draws nigh...

And what do you think GOD said..or meant when he said he would send a *Delusion* to people?


99 posted on 12/18/2008 9:20:47 AM PST by TaraP (The RAPTURE: Seperation of Church and State)
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To: TaraP; RJR_fan
You quote scripture, that definetly is part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..however, IMHO respectful opinion you are a Cherry Picker of the Scriptures...

I would be happy to comment on any Scripture you think I'm ignoring.

*In my house is many mansions I go to prepare a place for you*

Absolutely true. I believe this is a reference to the new Jerusalem. Which we all occupy (Heb. 12:22) and will occupy to a greater degree in glory when our souls and bodies are reunited at the resurrection.

Yes the Kingdom of GOD is within us..He left us his Peace.

Also true. I don’t see any conflict.

The Firmament...Expanding Universe...That is one thing I did agree from the geocentricity site.

I don’t find the speculative theories in the geocentrism model to fit with Scripture. Trying to read the Bible as one would a science textbook is just as error prone as trying to read Bible prophecies as one would the Jerusalem Times. It fails to adequately account for the culture, language and setting for the text.

Can you imagine how many people have graced this planet from when it started? How many people are coming back? would there be enough room on this planet the way it is?

That is why it is called a new heavens and new earth. It has nothing to do with geocentrism. One more thing Topcate... What signs did Jesus want us to be aware of when he spoke in Matthew 24? Look up for our redemption draws nigh...

Matthew 24 combines two events, the impending siege of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple in AD70 and the Second Coming. The dividing line in the chapter comes in vv. 34-36.

34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 " But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only
If you read carefully you will see that Jesus is very specific about timing and events in the first half of the chapter. That was to warn the disciples to flee from Jerusalem when they events He told them about started to unfold. BTW, in that section of localized judgment, He makes a statement of contrast with the Second Coming, "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." The disciples did not need to be concerned that this AD70 event was the Second Coming because that event would be seen by all and impossible to miss (e.g., no secret rapture).

In v. 36 Jesus moves His attention to the Second Coming. "But of that day and hour no one knows …" He likens it to the days of Noah when things were going on pretty much normally until the very day Noah and his family entered the ark. The Second Coming would be sudden and the timing unknown. "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

Bottom line, don’t confuse the signs in Matthew 24 related to the events of AD70 with the Second Coming when there will be no signs.

And what do you think GOD said..or meant when he said he would send a *Delusion* to people?

Well, let’s look at the context:

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2)
Matthew Henry explains it this way:
Thus he will punish men for their unbelief, and for their dislike of the truth and love to sin and wickedness; not that God is the author of sin, but in righteousness he sometimes withdraws his grace from such sinners as are here mentioned; he gives them over to Satan, or leaves them to be deluded by his instruments; he gives them up to their own hearts’ lusts, and leaves them to themselves, and then sin will follow of course, yea, the worst of wickedness, that shall end at last in eternal damnation. God is just when he inflicts spiritual judgments here, and eternal punishments hereafter, upon those who have no love to the truths of the gospel, who will not believe them, nor live suitably to them, but indulge false doctrines in their minds, and wicked practices in their lives and conversations.

100 posted on 12/18/2008 10:04:53 AM PST by topcat54 ("Friends don't let friends become dispensationalists.")
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