"How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization" ( Book Review )

Catholic Education .Org ^ | 2005 | Thomas E. Woods

[PGalt]

Recent & local...

http://www.catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=40974

Interesting thread GonzoII. Thanks for posting.

[GonzoII]

You’re welcome.

[GonzoII]

"The catholic church did not build the USA. That’s more important, I think. Not to single out the catholic church by any means."

Actually the USA is part of Western Civilization, of which our Founding Fathers were beneficiaries.

Where would our great country be today without the Bible, which some monks sacrificed their vision to transcribe, and not to mention the copies of the ancient writers wich the Church preserved and Jefferson read; I have no intent to degrade Protestants here, but only to state some facts.

Also, by the way, three of our Founding Fathers were Catholics:

Daniel Carroll a Signer of the Articles of the Confederation/ U.S. Constitution and U.S. Representative in the First Federal Congress (1789-179)

Charles Carroll a Signer of the Declaration of Independence and a Senator in the First U.S. Federal Congress (1789-1791)

Thomas Fitzsimons a Signer of the U.S. Constitution and U.S. Representative in the First Federal Congress (1789-1791)

[GonzoII]

Maybe you should publish your own Encyclopedia.

I don’t think it would sell good though.

Merry Christmas.

[annalex]

The Catholic Church, as well as her historical part the East Orthodox Church are not denominations among many, they are the historical continuing churches that Christ founded. They would not be able to build the civilization we have otherwise.

what I said about the "ekklesia" (Greek spelling) is what is taught in the Scriptures you say you believe in

I gave the relevant scripture in my 35:

The gospels record the Church as a single body united by Eucharistic Christ (Rm 12, 1 Cor. 10) and organized around her bishops (Acts 20:28) who meet in councils, teach and legislate (Acts 15). Re-read the catholic epistles, and Acts.

There is, of course, much more scripture supporting the Catholic ecclesiology. What scripture are you talking about?

[annalex]

what are you being taught about end-times?

That we should be ready any time. Regardless when Christ comes for all, our encounter with Him is mere decades away at most, and may be just minutes away. It is important to grow in holiness at all times. It is unimportant and even harmful to speculate about the day and the hour. That is about it.

[briarbey b]

Good answer and true, but what were the signs he told us to watch for...and why did he expect us to identify the players? Or what would be coming. He said his people would not be caught unaware, although we do not know the day or the hour we can see the signs and know we are close. Hard to fight and beware of an enemy you are not aware of.

No it isn’t decades away...the birth pangs are coming stronger and closer to a time of trouble like never seen on the face of the earth. History repeated with alot of it but ALL the signs will converge intensely and quickly as with the labor and the birth of a child. As a woman you should understand this concept..even the times of false labor.

[annalex]

I was talking of our own death and particular judgement being at most decades away, as I don't plan to live another 100 years. I think that the Second Coming of Christ is indeed not far.

An Orthodox friend of mine, Victor, a great iconographer, wrote something on the subject: Why Is the End of the World Inevitable?.

[Truth Defender]

The Catholic Church, as well as her historical part the East Orthodox Church are not denominations among many, they are the historical continuing churches that Christ founded. They would not be able to build the civilization we have otherwise.

Even before the RCC came into existence, many nations had already created civilization. Civilizations are created by men, not "churches" - and Jesus never said that His "body" was to create civilizations of the world. Christ's Kingdom is not of this world, it is within the hearts of those who believe in the Gospel.

I do give various churches credit for their part in creating a better civilization - but no particular one is responsible for what we now have.

I'll be absent from FR for the next 10 days or so - going out of state and leaving my computer idle at home. No way am I going to take it with me on vacation - have to have a rest of one sort or other :-)

[Truth Defender]

"what are you being taught about end-times?"

That we should be ready any time. Regardless when Christ comes for all, our encounter with Him is mere decades away at most, and may be just minutes away. It is important to grow in holiness at all times. It is unimportant and even harmful to speculate about the day and the hour. That is about it.

Annalex, terrific answer! Congratulation!

[briarbey b]

Interesting article...I found this in the posts.

About Katrina

(As you must know, the Storm inspired a great many conversations about the problem of evil and God's purpose in permitting great disorders of nature in this fallen world. The knee-kerk evangelical response is that Katrina was God's judgment on a sinful world — as opposed to them, of course.)

My experience with this was watching Gaza handed to the Terrorists and the Israeli being dragged out of their homes...I was in tears...and on my face...knowing that the US political agenda should not be forcing Israel to give up land not only given them by God but won by them in battle.
The price would be a high one for the US.
(if we play by the same rules...and not be hypocrites.. California needs to go back to Mexico and this whole country needs to be given back to the Indians.)

I was in New Orleans traveling a month before Katrina...I stood on Bourbon Street with friends and said...God is going to give this place a good scrubbing. They laughed but He did!! And made homeless just about as many people as we did with Gaza and our political agendas.

The next thing I fear is..when a Cat. 5 hits land like that, it moves things and sets the stage for further events. IF we make Israel give 1/2 of Jerusalem to terrorists....watch the Madrid Fault. God help us!!

People do have a tendency to scoff at God's judgments but yet blessings are also a judgment, he does do both. We should not be so puffed up that we risk his anger, just like our earthly dads.

I must say that I do HATE religion...ALL of them. Because it is not about religion it is about a relationship with the God that made us and all we have or see. It is about us personally knowing HIS nature, HIS ways and he said our ways are not his ways.

Mankind is making God in its imagine not the other way around, and it is being done through religions. I should not be able to identify your Christianity by any other title than a believer...pure and simple. God will not identify us by our denominations or organizations...we will stand as we are. Our names written in the Lambs Book of Life or NOT. I fear for people making their Christianity an Idol...more than Christ who paid the ultimate price to give us what we have.

[annalex]

Yes. Neither is the Western civilization the only one, nor is the Catholic Church the only one who built it.

No one seriously denies that, firstly, the early Church, both Catholic and Orthodox, — and not only the Latin Western Church were the architects of the Western Civilization. Further, the Orthodox Church even after its separation was a major factor in building this civilization, as well as other separated communities of faith. Secondly, a major component was the absorption of all that was good in the pagan civilizations that preceded the Church, especially the Greco-Roman civilization in its pre-Christian form.

Finally, major contributions came from Islam and from diverse non-Christian world.

The claim is that among all this contributions, and from a Eurocentric viewpoint, the primary builder is the Catohlic Church. She synthesized the pagan wisdom with the light of the Gospel, she created the infrastructure of learning, including the secular institutions of science, and from her other communities of faith, now contributing on their own, sprang.

[annalex]

Mankind is making God in its imagine not the other way around, and it is being done through religions.

Christianity is about having seen the face of God. No one made the image, but God.

Savior Not Made By Hand
Novgorod School, 12th Century

[briarbey b]

I think this says it all about your images.

2nd Commandment: ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.’

Also..if you read Revelations it will give you a description of Christ and it is definately NOT what man has made it to be.

[annalex]

The iconoclasm heresy was defeated by the Church over a thousand years ago.

The Holy Tradition says that St. Veronica wiped the face of Jesus on His way to Golgotha and the image remained on the cloth. The Turin Shroud is the actual image; the icon above is the traditional iconographic reference to the same. This is why it is called Not Made By Hands. The match with the iconography is remarkable, given that one represents a dead man and the other -- the living God.

The larger point is that the Incarnation is a historical fact, and we, Catholics have a historical religion. It is not a speculation what God might look like -- we know what He looks like.

[EyeGuy]

“This forum is a good place to find out about Catholicism.”

#####

Indeed it is!

[briarbey b]

uh huh....and Mary sells on grilled cheese sandwiches, and crowds gather around and come from miles to worship mold on a wall.
Anything and everything that can be done to eliminate the 10 commandments has been being done for hundreds of years.

Still doesn’t look like what scripture says he looks like.
I will believe scripture over the rumors and vain imaginations of men.

[annalex]

Thanks for reminding: we also know what virgin Mary looked like. Evangelist St. Luke wrote the first icon of Mary.

Our Lady of the Sign
Russia

Remember, iconography has no room for artistic imagination: facial features must be canonical.

The commandment not to make images was given the Jews. It makes no sense after the Incarnation when God chose to give us His image (2 Cor. 4:4, Col. 1:15).

It is another example how the Church, in defeating iconoclasm, stood on the side of civilization and against the heretical vandals. If you enjoy art, thank the Church.

[GonzoII]

"Remember, iconography has no room for artistic imagination: facial features must be canonical."

Annalex, can you recommend a book that helps one understand icons; one more spiritual than technical.

[annalex]

This website is, I believe, an entry level university course, and a good place to start: Alexander Boguslawski

Guide to Byzantine Iconography (Paperback) by Constantine Cavarnos (Author) is a terrific book that also points out how the spiritual is intertwined with the technical. Cavarnos would describe the canon for a particular icon, then explain the scriptural and theological basis for it, and relate it to Orthodox hymnody.

I would start by reading about it on the internet, there is plenty in English that has lately become available.

I know more than the average bear about icons, feel free to ask. I enjoy explaining them.