Posted on 12/30/2008 8:43:49 PM PST by GonzoII
It is quite evident that you are ignorant of both Scripture and Catholicism.
Your ignorance spans many languages. Co-Redemptrix is Latin and when translated means the woman with the Redeemer, nothing more.
Not in the flesh He didn't.
They can always start here:
From The 95 Theses by Dr. Martin Luther (added emphasis is mine):
75. It is foolish to think that papal indulgences have so much power that they can absolve a man even if he has done the impossible and violated the mother of God.
I specifically mentioned asking for the prayers of loved ones. How is that unclear?
The term “co-redemptrix” means much more in the minds of many Catholics than just “with the Redeemer” it seems.
“...as God’s Mother she cooperated in our redemption;....
upon her death she was assumed bodily into heaven where she is queen, reigning over heaven and earth.”
And
“In the O.T., in a text called the Protoevangelism (Gn 3:15), we find the first significant reference to Mary. There mention is made of the “Second Eve”, through whom will be effected the redeemed restoration of all mankind.”
(The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1986)
That’s a good deal more than “with”.
“And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43”
“the mother of my Lord” is not equivalent to “the Mother Of God” or do you not know that Lord was used for Jesus, God, humans, anyone of great rank in the eyes of the speaker?
The word at Luke 1:43 is “kyrios”, Lord, not “Theos”, God.
I’m slow, sometimes you just have to be extra++++ clear
for me.
“Where in the Scriptures does anyone pray to the saints in heaven? For any reason?”.
—
Not to be found, nor does it need to be.
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It’s in the scripture posted below your link.
The key difference is not intercessory prayer, but whom we ask to pray for us. We believe in the Communion of Saints - as the early Church did, in the creeds - that includes the Saints in Heaven. Communion includes fellowship in life. We are alive in Christ, He is the God of the living, and so on.
Again, what has been lost to Protestantism is the Communion of Saints, included in the body of Christ, by which we are all one in Christ. As Jesus prayed we would be. We are here for each other, part of a whole. The early Church knew what Jesus meant, lived its truth, lived in the Communion of Saints. This union exists, whether we realize it or not.
“It is true that public prayer, inasmuch as it is offered by Mother Church, excels any other kind of prayer by reason of her dignity as Spouse of Christ; but no prayer, even the most private, is lacking in dignity or power, and all prayer is of the greatest help to the Mystical Body in which, through the Communion of Saints, no good can be done, no virtue practiced by the individual members, which does not redound also to the salvation of all. “
—Mystici Corporus Christi Pope Pius XII
The lack of realization of the Communion of Saints is, I believe, a great loss to modern Protestantism.
“to bow down, prostrate oneself as before a superior in homage.”
We don't go by dictionaries, we go by intended meaning. If we went all the time by the dictionary, we would discover that "trinity" simply means "triplet" (of anything -- fork, knife and spoon are a trinity); resurrection simply means "to rise again" (dollar fell against the euro, then resurrected), "god" is any deity real or imaginary, etc.
The intent of the prohibition of worship other gods was not to prohibit bowing down as expression of respect, as many examples of the scripture show. It was to prohibit polytheism, and worship of Baal specifically.
Catholics worship God by offering the sacrifice of the Mass to God. If we worshipped Mary, we'd offer Mass to Mary, which we don't do. Protestants, by the way, don't worship in the same sense anyone -- this is why you are not, techically speaking, even a church.
Latria, dulia, hyperdulia.. Protestantism has lost two of the three. To a protestant these all appear as “worship”. Or latria.
Among modern protestants there seems to be some desire for minimalism, which I don’t understand.
It’s just an unnecessary loss.
If pray is to ask and I ask someone to pray for someone else, then, both can occur at the same event.
The key is whom we believe is God. It is asking for intercessory prayer. Or asking for asking in other terms.
It's really simple if you understand the Church's beliefs since Christ:
1) We are alive in Christ. 2) The Communion of Saints includes the Saints in Heaven. 3) We, the body of Christ, are to pray together and for each other. 4) It matters that we do.
Then if I pray (ask) Mary to "pray for us sinners," you understand why.
You may not agree, but as I've said before, this is your loss, the loss of protestantism, relatively recently.
I can understand that. Some Catholics I've spoken with see Protestantism as rather sterile and gray without the traditions and ceremonies, etc.
Anyway, thank you for you patience. It's way past my nap time so bye for now.
Hence "bibliolatry", a term of abuse.
They may express it that way imprecisely, or a Protestant may understand their remark that way, but this is incorrect.
We don't have a quarrel with little ceremony. Some Protestant services are quite ceremonious; some Catholic Masses are very austere. Certainly, we all can agree that some ceremony is necessary: for example, we all think it good to keep order and reduce noise.
Likewise, everyone has traditions. For example, the order of events during service, observance of holidays, manner of dress, decorations in the sanctuary are all traditions.
The distinction between Catholics and Protestants is not that we have ceremony and traditions and Protestants do not. It is that we have Sacraments and Protestants do not. The Lord's Table in a Protestant church, for example, is a ceremony: people are silent, the ushers distribute the plates with matzoh pieces, the minister reads from the Bible, everyone eats the piece. But it is not Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ on the plate. It is not a sacrament. It is often a beautiful and pious ceremony.
The Catholic Tradition (capital T) is also something else: it is a connection to the Early Church that we have through the continuity of belief. For example, much about Mary did not enter the Gospel; it is something we know from Tradition. That, Protestants say, is a mistake: if it is not in the written scripture, it should be ignored. We think, they are wrong: the Tradition has to be studied and obeyed whether an evangelist chose to write it down or not.
On the other hands, much of what people see in Catholic Churches is lower-case "t" tradition. A lot of it dates from the Baroque period or even is quite recent. These traditions are not what makes us distinct from the Protestants, who have their own traditions.
In Gen. Ch. 19, Lot ask the Angels not to destroy a city and they listen to his prayers :
"And when it was morning, the angels pressed him, saying: Arise, take thy wife, and the two daughters which thou hast: lest thou also perish in the wickedness of the city....And they brought him forth, and set him without the city...And Lot said to them: I beseech thee my Lord...There is this city here at hand, to which I may flee, it is a little one, and I shall be saved in it....And he said to him: Behold also in this, I have heard thy prayers, not to destroy the city for which thou hast spoken....Make haste and be saved there, because I cannot do any thing till thou go in thither. Therefore the name of that city was called Segor."
Why, thank you for your insights. Perhaps I was the one being imprecise.
There are two types of churches. There is a local church which is made up of believers which meet locally. There is a universal church which is made up of ALL believers everywhere. I simply don’t believe in a Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, Greek Orthodox, Protestant or Catholic “CHURCH”. The Lord Jesus in MATTHEW 18 v.20: “Where two or three are gathered together in MY NAME there am I in the midst of them.” HIS words are enough for me. He is present where I meet and I don’t need you or anyone else to call it a “Church”. You have my permission to call it a “GRAPEFRUIT” if you like.
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