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To: Kolokotronis

Um, what John Chrysostomos said holds just as nicely for the Protestant view. I think you might not understand what is meant then.

Does he say that the individual is changed? Yup. Does it say he is now washed clean of all sins? Not really. Does this support baptismal regeneration? I would have to say no.

Perhaps if you gave your impression of the Protestant view, I can understand your meaning better.

13 posted on 12/31/2008 6:59:37 AM PST by Ottofire (Philippians 1:21: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.)
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To: Ottofire

“Does he say that the individual is changed? Yup. Does it say he is now washed clean of all sins? Not really. Does this support baptismal regeneration? I would have to say no.”

And I would say that you have not read +Cyprian and +Cyril and +Clement. +John Chrysostomos alone doesn’t represent the consensus patrum. No individual father does. That an individual would represent the sum total of the Truth of The Church is an almost Roman Catholic notion. Its interesting, at least to me, to see these little flashes of a distinctly Roman Catholic mindset pop up in discussions with Protestants.

At any rate, take a look at these

“The dispensation of our God and Saviour concerning man is a recall from the fall, and a return from the alienation caused by disobedience to close communion with God. This is the reason for the sojourn of Christ in the flesh, the pattern of life described in the Gospels, the sufferings, the cross, the tomb, the resurrection; so that the man who is being saved through imitation of Christ receives the old adoption. For perfection of life the imitation of Christ is necessary, not only in the example of gentleness, lowliness, and long suffering set us in His life, but also of His actual death. So Paul, the imitator of Christ, says, `being made conformable unto His death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.’ How then are we made in the likeness of His death? In that we were buried with Him by baptism.” +Chrysostomos, “Homily on the Holy Spirit”.

And this from “Homily XL on First Corinthians” :

“As thus: after the enunciation of those mystical and fearful words, and the awful rules of the doctrines which have come down from heaven, this also we add at the end when we are about to baptize, bidding them say, “I believe in the resurrection of the dead,” and upon this faith we are baptized. For after we have confessed this together with the rest, then at last are we let down into the fountain of those sacred streams. This therefore Paul recalling to their minds said, “if there be no resurrection, why are you then baptized for the dead ?” i.e., the dead bodies. For in fact with a view to this are you baptized, the resurrection of your dead body, believing that it no longer remains dead. And thou indeed in the words makest mention of a resurrection of the dead; but the priest, as in a kind of image, signifies to you by very deed the things which you have believed and confessed in words. When without a sign you believe, then he gives you the sign also; when you have done your own part, then also does God fully assure you. How and in what manner? By the water. For the being baptized and immersed and then emerging, is a symbol of the descent into Hades and return thence. Wherefore also Paul calls baptism a burial, saying, “Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death.” Romans 6:4 By this he makes that also which is to come credible, I mean, the resurrection of our bodies. For the blotting out sins is a much greater thing than the raising up of a body. And this Christ declaring, said, “For whether is easier to say, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Take up your bed, and walk?” Matthew 9:5 “The former is the more difficult,” says He, “but since you disbelieve it as being hidden, and make the easier instead of the more difficult the demonstration of my power, neither will I refuse to afford you this proof.” Then says He to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go unto your house.”

“And how is this difficult,” says one, “when it is possible to kings also and rulers? For they too forgive adulterers and homicides.” You are jesting, O man, who sayest these things. For to forgive sins with God only is possible. But rulers and kings, whether it is adulterers whom they forgive or homicides, release them indeed from the present punishment; but their sin they do not purge out. Though they should advance to offices them that have been forgiven, though they should invest them with the purple itself, though they should set the diadem upon their heads, yet so they would only make them kings, but could not free them from their sin. It being God alone who does this; which accordingly in the Laver of Regeneration He will bring to pass. For His grace touches the very soul, and thence plucks up the sin by the root. Here is the reason why he that has been forgiven by the king may be seen with his soul yet impure, but the soul of the baptized no longer so, but purer than the very sun-beams, and such as it was originally formed, nay rather much better than that. For it is blessed with a Spirit, on every side enkindling it and making its holiness intense. And as when you are recasting iron or gold you make it pure and new once more, just so the Holy Ghost also, recasting the soul in baptism as in a furnace and consuming its sins, causes it to glisten with more purity than all purest gold.

Further, the credibility of the resurrection of our bodies he signifies to you again from what follows: viz., that since sin brought in death, now that the root is dried up, one must not after that doubt of the destruction of the fruit. Therefore having first mentioned “the forgiveness of sins,” thou dost next confess also “the resurrection of the dead;” the one guides you as by hand on to the other.”

He speaks in a similar vein in his “Homily IX on Hebrews”.

+John was as aware of the sin cleansing efficacy of baptism as the other Fathers.

14 posted on 12/31/2008 7:57:43 AM PST by Kolokotronis ( Christ is Born! Glorify Him!)
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