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Archbishop Lefebvre signed every one of Vatican IIís documents
CNA ^ | January 13, 2009

Posted on 01/13/2009 1:03:00 PM PST by NYer

Rome, Jan 13, 2009 / 01:54 pm (CNA).- Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who died in 1991 and was excommunicated for ordaining four bishops in 1988 without the Pope’s permission, did indeed sign every document of Vatican II—the same documents he would later harshly criticize, according to a recent article in the Italian magazine Panorama.

The article entitled, “In the Secret Heart of the Vatican,” written by Ignazio Ingrao, states that among the documents kept at the Vatican Secret Archives “are those of the Second Vatican Council, which unmasked an historic falsehood spread by the traditionalists,” led today by schismatic Bishop Bernard Fellay, who several months ago rejected a proposal by the Holy See to return to full communion with the Catholic Church.

“Marcel Lefebvre, the archbishop who contested the conciliar reforms and was excommunicated for having ordained four bishops without the Pope’s permission, in reality signed the documents of Vatican II with his own hand, beginning with the constitution Gaudium et Spes, which he later would harshly criticize,” Ingrao wrote in his article.

“The signature of Lefebvre appears at the bottom of the Council documents,” said historian Piero Doria of the Vatican Secret Archives, who helped Ingrao in the research.

In exclusive statements to CNA, Ingrao explained that this was “the first time a photographer and journalist were allowed to photograph and describe” the vast area “where letters relative to the two thousand year history of the Church are conserved.”

Ingrao also told CNA, “In reality, historians and experts already knew that Lefebvre had signed the Council documents. But many people were not aware of this, and traditionalist propaganda spread the belief that Lefebvre had always opposed the documents. The original copies of the Vatican II documents show the contrary and for many this has come as a surprise.”


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; lefebvre; sppx; vaticanii
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1 posted on 01/13/2009 1:03:01 PM PST by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
2 posted on 01/13/2009 1:03:53 PM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: NYer

Sounds like the John Kerry of Bishops.

He supported Vatican II before he opposed it.


3 posted on 01/13/2009 1:05:48 PM PST by WayneS (Respect the 2nd Amendment; Repeal the 16th)
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To: WayneS

The documents were lengthy but pretty vague and insubstantial, and really didn’t present any threat in themselves. None of the post Vatican II liturgical abuses, ranging from getting rid of the communion rail to communion in the hand to the complete replacement of the old Mass, were contained in any documents. They were mostly actions by a contingent of radical clergy at the Vatican, on the one hand, or wild practical abuses, many of them starting in the US, that spread among the laity and clergy and were tacitly accepted because of the breakdown in authority after Vatican II.

Did the documents contain bad stuff? I attended many study sessions on them in the 1960s, like most Catholics my age, and they really didn’t contain much of anything at all. However, their very vagueness and lack of precision left the door open, and a lot of people had obviously been plotting for a long time on how to take advantage of this.


4 posted on 01/13/2009 1:16:42 PM PST by livius
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To: NYer

hypocrite?

or was he deceived in some way?


5 posted on 01/13/2009 1:42:39 PM PST by Coleus (Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!)
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To: NYer

They are claiming Vatican II is tainted and invalid because Archbishop Lefebvre signed it?


6 posted on 01/13/2009 2:38:12 PM PST by nickcarraway (Are the Good Times Really Over?)
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To: NYer

I don’t think anyone who is at all familiar with the SSPX and/or Abp. Lefebvre didn’t already know that he signed all the Vatican II documents.

The issue is what those documents actually mean, versus what they were later asserted to mean.

The SSPX is in imperfect communion with the Holy See, which is definitely a problem, and must be addressed as soon as possible. It should also be remembered that there are many parts of the “regular” Church in the cultural West (U.S., Europe, Australia, etc.) are at in at least as irregular a situation, when one considers what actually goes on at the average parish.


7 posted on 01/13/2009 2:42:15 PM PST by B Knotts (ConservatismCentral.com)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: B Knotts

Part of the problem is that those who want something done about his/her parish becoming “Happy Catholic”...

1. Have no clue what is needed
2. Are instantly shut down by those in power
3. Do not know the difference between an abuse and an innovation.

Example, the “Hands Extended” (orans) position used by the laity is an abuse. In the GIRM it is directed to the Priest and Deacon ONLY. Never even to an Altar Server. For the laity to use this, is an abuse.
However, holding hands is an innovation. This prayer position is never addressed in the GIRM and therefore people use it. In the Cleveland Diocese, they encouraged a “modified orans” (looks like a ‘stickup up’ gesture, I kid you not) so as to discourage handholding. It’s still wrong.

Reasonably, any one would think that if it is not mentioned in the GIRM it is not allowed (laying prostrate is not mentioned either nor BBQing in the choir loft), because the GIRM doesn’t mention what one cannot do (a huge catagory) but rather what one should do.

Therefore innovation took off.


9 posted on 01/13/2009 3:37:19 PM PST by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: livius; Coleus
their very vagueness and lack of precision left the door open, and a lot of people had obviously been plotting for a long time on how to take advantage of this

Bingo! It was, as a result of their vagueness, that certain bihops and priests were able to introduce 'novelties' into the liturgy. This was not unique to the US but, as we have already seen, worldwide.

To cite an example, when I wrote the local diocese about my (then) pastor attempting to introduce liturgical dance into the liturgy, the Director for Divine Worship responded in favor of the pastor and quoted from a VCII document on 'multicularism'. After choking with laughter, I wrote her back citing Sacrosanctum Concilium and Canon law which states that catholics have a right to a valid liturgy. I won; they lost.

The victims of these shenanigans were pew catholics who never bothered to actually read the documents. They simply went along on the assumption the bishop would not delude them. For many years, I was one of them. Then I discovered this forum :-)

10 posted on 01/13/2009 4:06:44 PM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: B Knotts
The SSPX is in imperfect communion with the Holy See

"Imperfect communion"?! Do you deny that the SSPX is in schism?

It should also be remembered that there are many parts of the “regular” Church in the cultural West (U.S., Europe, Australia, etc.) are at in at least as irregular a situation, when one considers what actually goes on at the average parish.

"At in at least as irregular". Although I agree there are terrible abuses in some parishes which need to be addressed, surely you aren't attempting to draw some false equivocation between liturgical abuses and the schism of consecrating four bishops in defiance of the Pope? Are you part of the SSPX?

11 posted on 01/13/2009 4:15:05 PM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: nickcarraway
They are claiming Vatican II is tainted and invalid because Archbishop Lefebvre signed it?

No. As the article states: "traditionalist propaganda spread the belief that Lefebvre had always opposed the documents. The original copies of the Vatican II documents show the contrary and for many this has come as a surprise."

12 posted on 01/13/2009 4:16:27 PM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: NYer
But if Archbishop Lefebvre signed it, will that lead everyone to question the legitimacy of Vatican II?


(Personally, I don't understand this: I had always heard from all sides that he had signed off on it.)

13 posted on 01/13/2009 4:24:07 PM PST by nickcarraway (Are the Good Times Really Over?)
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To: nickcarraway
But if Archbishop Lefebvre signed it, will that lead everyone to question the legitimacy of Vatican II?

Of course not. He simply agreed with its contents NOT with its 'interpretation' by certain prelates.

14 posted on 01/13/2009 4:31:12 PM PST by NYer ("Run from places of sin as from a plague." - St. John Climacus)
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To: B Knotts

Good post. I wonder how the Church will look back on the leferbristswhateverists in 500 years.

Freegards


15 posted on 01/13/2009 4:31:54 PM PST by Ransomed (Son of Ransomed Says Keep the Faith!)
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To: livius
The documents were lengthy but pretty vague and insubstantial, and really didn’t present any threat in themselves. None of the post Vatican II liturgical abuses, ranging from getting rid of the communion rail to communion in the hand to the complete replacement of the old Mass, were contained in any documents. They were mostly actions by a contingent of radical clergy at the Vatican, on the one hand, or wild practical abuses, many of them starting in the US, that spread among the laity and clergy and were tacitly accepted because of the breakdown in authority after Vatican II.

Excellent Post!

I wish more people took the time to read some of Vatican II instead of finding fault with it.

Some of it rings true today almost as a sort of prophecy.

Like this...

From GAUDIUM ET SPES

Excerpt: 65. Economic development must remain under man's determination and must not be left to the judgment of a few men or groups possessing too much economic power or of the political community alone or of certain more powerful nations. It is necessary, on the contrary, that at every level the largest possible number of people and, when it is a question of international relations, all nations have an active share in directing that development. There is need as well of the coordination and fitting and harmonious combination of the spontaneous efforts of individuals and of free groups with the undertakings oœ public authorities.

Growth is not to be left solely to a kind of mechanical course of the economic activity of individuals, nor to the authority of government. For this reason, doctrines which obstruct the necessary reforms under the guise of a false liberty, and those which subordinate the basic rights of individual persons and groups to the collective organization of production must be shown to be erroneous.(4)

16 posted on 01/13/2009 4:34:12 PM PST by stfassisi (The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi))
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To: Ronaldus Magnus
Do you deny that the SSPX is in schism?

I'm not in any affiliated with the SSPX, but consider:

"The bishops, priests and faithful of the Society of St Pius X are not schismatics. It is Archbishop Lefebrve who has undertaken an illicit Episcopal consecration and therefore performed a schismatic act. It is for this reason that the Bishops consecrated by him have been suspended and excommunicated. The priests and faithful of the Society have not been excommunicated. They are not heretics." - Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos, February 8, 2007, in the German Die Tagespost.
17 posted on 01/13/2009 4:34:22 PM PST by irishjuggler
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To: NYer
They simply went along on the assumption the bishop would not delude them.

That's very true. I often wondered how many bishops themselves had read the documents, though, or if they were simply relying on somebody else's creative interpretation of them. And then inevitably the interpretation took on a life of its own and nobody even thought of questioning it...

18 posted on 01/13/2009 4:39:06 PM PST by livius
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To: NYer; nickcarraway
"traditionalist propaganda spread the belief that Lefebvre had always opposed the documents. The original copies of the Vatican II documents show the contrary and for many this has come as a surprise."
That appears to be a made up thesis, evryone I know in the SSPX communities know that the Abp. signed all (save two) of the documents. The issue was the use by the heretical Modernists of the so called "Spirit of Vatican II" to suppress the Latin Mass and the Traditional elements of the faith in pursuit of a changed NewChurch.
19 posted on 01/13/2009 4:46:23 PM PST by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: NYer

Yes I had heard he signed all-—it has been the implementation of what almost all admit are vague and ambiguous critical areas of the documents that the Archbishop opposed

the current situation is a pity; if we had SP and all the recent changes 20+ years ago and no Assisi-I, we would not be in it, I don’t think


20 posted on 01/13/2009 4:57:39 PM PST by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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