Byzantium display stirs interest in Christian and Islamic culture

ENI ^ | 6 January 2009 | Martin Revis

[GonzoII]

Martin Revis

Mosaic icon of Saint Stephen, c. 1108-1113. Image: Courtesy of Royal Academy of Arts.

London (ENI). The Antioch chalice, regarded by some as the Holy Grail, the cup used by Christ at the Last Supper, is attracting the attention of about 6000 visitors each day at an exhibition in London depicting 1000 years of the Byzantine Empire. "Byzantium 330-1453" runs at Britain's Royal Academy of Arts until 22 March.

It displays icons, ivories, gold and silver metalwork, wall paintings and other artefacts brought to London from across Europe, the United States, Russia, Ukraine and Egypt.

They tell the story of the Byzantine Empire from the founding of Constantinople in 330 by Constantine, the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, to the capture of the city by the forces of Mehmed II in 1453. This was during the period of the Ottoman Empire that preceded the modern state of Turkey and was in many aspects an Islamic successor to the Byzantine Empire.

"Fifty years ago an exhibition like this would have attracted historians concerned with dating and provenance, but today there is a much wider interest by the public in faith cultures and how art is used to support faiths," Professor Robin Cormack, the exhibition's curator, told Ecumenical News International.

The Antioch chalice, an undated plain silver cup discovered in 1911, is encased in a holder bearing images of Christ and 10 disciples dated by the decorative style of 6th century silver work. Cormack said an argument made in favour of the cup being the Holy Grail was that it was discovered at Antioch, a city associated with Christian relics.

Among the exhibits publicly displayed for the first time is a 9th century screen from the sanctuary of the Church of the Virgin at Skripou near Thebes.

One room at the exhibition is devoted to icons, where five of them, among treasures on display from the monastery of St Catherine in the Sinai desert, are reunited with two others that left the monastery 150 years ago with a visiting Russian priest, possibly as a gift. They are now owned by a Kiev museum.

These early examples from Kiev are believed to be part of a treasure given to the monastery by the 6th-century Roman Emperor Justinian in memory of his wife.

• Exhibition Web site: www.royalacademy.org.uk/exhibitions/byzantium/about/

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[2banana]

They tell the story of the Byzantine Empire from the founding of Constantinople in 330 by Constantine, the first Roman Emperor to convert to Christianity, to the capture of the city by the forces of Mehmed II in 1453. This was during the period of the Ottoman Empire that preceded the modern state of Turkey and was in many aspects an Islamic successor to the Byzantine Empire.

Such PC crap.

The Byzantine Empire was invaded by islamic armies. They were conquered, sold into slavery and forced to convert to islam.

[Star Traveler]

Constantinople — overrun by Muslims in 1453
Europe — overrun by Muslims in 2009
U.S. — overrun by Muslims in ....

[chuck_the_tv_out]

The capital of the East Roman empire, lasted 1000 years longer than Rome, centre of christendom, usually overlooked

They still bastardized christianity into a smells & bells religion, but were still a lot better than muzzies

[Mmogamer]

The Eastern Roman Empire preserved much of Roman and Greek
knowledge and passed it on to us, this crap about the Arabs
doing that is nonsense.

[FormerLib]

They still bastardized christianity into a smells & bells religion, but were still a lot better than muzzies

The Orthodox Christians preserved the Christian faith while the Western Christians scaled it down into a minimalist faith.

Accusing them of "bastardizing" Christianity speaks of a great deal of ignorance about the Orthodox Christian Church.

[GonzoII]

"smells & bells"

Love them all.

[gitmogrunt]

"They "still bastardized christianity into a smells & bells religion, but were still a lot better than muzzies.

Who is the "they" you are referring to?

[livius]

Puhleeze. The Muzzies destroyed the Byzantine Empire, just as they nearly destroyed Spain (which was an early-Christianized area heavily influenced by Byzantine Christianity, btw). The Spanish were able to drive them out but the various countries in the former Byzantine Empire never managed to do so.

In both cases, leftwing historians want to attribute any greatness of these civilizations to Islam. Why? They were great civilizations until Islam got there. Islam was very new and not fully consolidated when it came to Spain, so it took it more time to wipe out Christianity; Islam was much more powerful when it got to Turkey, and it took Islam no time at all to extinguish Christianity in Turkey, along with art, reason and civilization, until the secular rejection of Islam by Ataturk.

Spain fought for 800 years to avoid becoming another Islamic hell-hole of despotic government, ignorance and superstition, and Spain survived and went on to bring Christian civilization to the New World. (Well, Spain survived until socialism came along...but that’s a whole nother story.)

[livius]

Huh? The Greeks and the Romans both had very elaborate liturgical forms, because Jesus is not only your personal savior, but King of Glory, and the Lord must be received in the way that is fitting. Christianity started with Jewish ritual - which was very elaborate, although Christians of course did not celebrate in the Temple - and after the Council of Jerusalem in 50 AD, at which it was decided that the message of Christ was not meant only for the Jews, Christianity began to adopt the symbolism and iconography understood in non-Jewish cultures around it, such as that of Rome.

Protestantism is a fairly new religion, a little younger than Islam, actually, and Protestants need to learn more about the history of Christianity.

[Parmenio]

</i>They were conquered, sold into slavery and forced to convert to islam.</i>

Not entirely. As late as 1920, about 25% of the population of Istanbul was Christian, and many of the areas along the Mediterranean and Black Sea coasts had higher percentages of Christians.

[chuck_the_tv_out]

“The Greeks and the Romans both had very elaborate liturgical forms, because Jesus is not only your personal savior, but King of Glory, and the Lord must be received in the way that is fitting.”

Fine. I’m not looking for an argument. You have your opinion, I have mine.

“Christianity started with Jewish ritual - which was very elaborate”

Jesus lambasted elaborate rituals. He was against those who made elaborate prayers to look good in front of others.

“although Christians of course did not celebrate in the Temple - and after the Council of Jerusalem in 50 AD, at which it was decided that the message of Christ was not meant only for the Jews”

God had already decided that. That council merely drew attention to that fact. The likes of Peter took a lot of persuading, as I read it!

“Christianity began to adopt the symbolism and iconography understood in non-Jewish cultures around it, such as that of Rome.”

No, they didn’t! There can be no “began to adopt”. If you are “beginning to adopt” something, you are falling away from the faith. The teachings of Christ are very clear in that regard: man’s religion makes a mockery of God.

“Protestantism is a fairly new religion, a little younger than Islam, actually, and Protestants need to learn more about the history of Christianity.”

And babylonian priests sacrificing children to molech is older than them all. Does age make a thing right?

I’m not arguing with you. I had an opinion about Bytantine; which was mainly that it was worthy of study, much overlooked. I posted it. I see no point in stirring trouble between protestants and conservative Catholics, of which there are few enough!

[Parmenio]

it took Islam no time at all to extinguish Christianity in Turkey

Like I said in an earlier comment, there were high percentages of Christians in many cities in what is now Turkey. And even higher percentages in the European areas of the Ottoman empire. So your comment is incorrect.

[Pyro7480]

Jesus lambasted elaborate rituals. He was against those who made elaborate prayers to look good in front of others.

No. He was an observant Jew. He was against those who prayed who had an exterior devotion but were not Godly interiorly.

[eleni121]

Yes there were Christians living their lives out - as miserable as they were - under the Muslim Turks.

But what a life it was—their children forcibly and regularly taken and converted and massacred at the whims of local Muslims and forced to be dhimmis - at the complete mercy of Muslims...yes they were needed as slaves and whores and to be used as slave soldiers and sailors.

And then the final atrocity against the Asia Minor Christians—the “secular” savagery of Mustafa Kemal aka ataturk - - wiping out 3 million men women and children - basically all vestiges of Christendom in the 20th century.

[chuck_the_tv_out]

“He was an observant Jew”

He followed the law. Half the point of the NT is that the jews were not following the law, though thought they were. Largely though, they don’t even care. Like today, there are no sacrifices being made for the Jews by the high priest. Yet jews will call themselves “observant”. No, they aren’t observant. Like all religious people, they are doing some things, and they have told themeselves that those things are important.

[Parmenio]

And then the final atrocity against the Asia Minor Christians—the “secular” savagery of Mustafa Kemal aka ataturk - - wiping out 3 million men women and children

I believe you are referring to the Armenian genocide that occured in 1915. But at that time Turkey was not secular as you claim -- it was still Ottoman. And in 1915 Kemal was a colonel in Ottoman Army, commanding the forces defending against the allied invasion at Gallipoli and was in no position to do waht you said he did. I'm not trying to sugar-coat anything, but you owe it to yourself to get your facts straight.

[LiteKeeper]

AMEN!

[SamiGirl]

Thank you for saying that. As an Orthodox Christian, I am grateful for your reply. And I do love the smells and bells.

[gitmogrunt]

http://www.greek-genocide.org/

[pierrem15]

They still bastardized christianity into a smells & bells religion, ...

Unintentionally ironic, since the only way you know a thing about Christ is through the Greek in which the New Testament was written.

You know, maybe the people who wrote down the Gospels and organized the first church understood something about Christian theology and practice you missed.

[livius]

Turkish nationalism is complicated. But I don’t believe it was Ataturk who slaughtered the Armenians.

[Kolokotronis]

“They still bastardized christianity into a smells & bells religion, but were still a lot better than muzzies.”

Last time I heard that one, newbie, it was from some slack jawed, blow dried preacher man reminding his congregation to bring their own snakes next time.

[chuck_the_tv_out]

Yes, the NT is written in Greek, a very precise language that enabled God to preserve His word in the exactness He intended. Like 1 Tim 4 (with Strong's references) for example. Looking up the Greek meanings of those words is a goldmine.

"maybe the people who wrote down the Gospels and organized the first church understood something about Christian theology and practice you missed"

Maybe. I'll definitely keep looking for that. I'm sure it's not rituals & costumes & chants though, to which I was (glibly) referring.

[Kolokotronis]

“But I don’t believe it was Ataturk who slaughtered the Armenians.”

Not in 1915...later on, after 1920.

[livius]

Jesus went to the Temple and was obviously just fine with it. What he did not like was people who thought that they got off the ethical requirements either by going to the Temple or praying out loud in a public place or paying their tithes or doing whatever other external thing it was that they did.

There is no conflict between liturgy and Christianity. The people who really hated the Byzantine Liturgy and churches, btw, were the Muslims, who destroyed them as soon as possible. They did the same thing in Spain, tearing apart Spanish churches and suppressing the liturgy (which was probably much closer to the Byzantine liturgy than other Catholic liturgies were).

Islam is an iconoclastic religion, that is, it despises created nature and does not believe that human images should be seen, with the result that it wipes out Christian religious imagery and practice wherever it appears. Because in Christ God became man (visible, even touchable), Christians have a visual and musical past that Islam, which rejects created nature and human freedom, can never have. Heck, the Muslims wouldn’t even like Protestants singing “Just As I Am”. So that’s why I feel it’s important to defend liturgy and beautiful churches! They’re not extras, they’re part of who we are as Christians.

[Romulus]

Does age make a thing right?

No, but legitimate succession from the origin does. That's why apostolic Christianity -- with its smells and bells -- is the real deal. Non-apostolic, DIY, me 'n' Jesus Christianity was fathered outside this legitimate line, for those who want to talk about bastardy.

[chuck_the_tv_out]

“Last time I heard that one, newbie, it was from some slack jawed, blow dried preacher man reminding his congregation to bring their own snakes next time.”

Nice. Real Fruit of the Spirit showing there. You’d better be careful, you’ll convert the whole room.

[Honorary Serb]

The West used to be Orthodox, too, until those Frankish Popes made their power-play. I have a Western Orthodox saint-name, and so do many others without knowing it!

Luther’s Reformation was made necessary by Frankish bastardization of the Western Church. Now that large sections of Western Christianity are dissolving before our eyes (as Metropolitan Jonah says), it’s time to compete the journey back to Orthodoxy, the fullness of the Church.

The alternative is increasing islamization. I say “no thank you” to that!!!!

[chuck_the_tv_out]

Hi, nice reply.

“The people who really hated the Byzantine Liturgy and churches, btw, were the Muslims, who destroyed them as soon as possible”

Really good point. And very hard for me to rebut, since muslims are such a heinous presence in this world. Reading the Bible, we come across many times in the Old Testement, where God gives power and lands to Israel’s heathen enemies, even going so far as to make Israel their slaves, for a time, until they repent, and come back to the true faith. When I read those passages, seeing the long time it takes, how God is merciful for so long, until eventually Israel is just rubbing his face in the dirt, such that he really has no choice, I can almost hear God saying that even as much as he hates the heathen’s ways, he would rather see them have the land, have the dominion, than see Israel have it when they are in total defiance of him. It’s like God is saying as bad as those heathen are, the way Israel is at that time is WORSE.

I see that like the muzzies now. As bad as they are, at least they don’t celebrate sodomy. As bad as they are, at least they don’t kill all those children right in their mother’s womb. So is that something we should consider? Absolutely yes IMO.

“that’s why I feel it’s important to defend liturgy and beautiful churches! They’re not extras, they’re part of who we are as Christians.”

Please, do. Particularly beautiful churches. I feel it’s important to defend against man’s religion taking the place of faith.

[Bokababe]

"Nice. Real Fruit of the Spirit showing there."

Right. We'll all take that real seriously from the guy who referred to the earliest Christian worship as "smells and bells"!

[chuck_the_tv_out]

It’s not the earliest Christian worship!

I had no idea there would be so many people here sympathetic to the Orthodox tradition. I should have phrased what I said more tactfully.

[Bokababe]

"It’s not the earliest Christian worship!"

During the first thousand years of Christianity, there was only one Church! So when you criticize Orthodoxy, which hasn't changed it's Liturgy or style of worship since then, you aren't just criticizing "the Orthodox tradition", you are criticizing the entire history of the Christian church!

I was on a Greek island cruise back in 2000 with some Evangelicals tracing "the Foosteps of Paul". What shocked them was that every place they went, they found an Orhtodox church with an unbroken line of worship by the people there back to the time of St. Paul. What shocked me was that they would have expected to find anything else! What, did they think that Jesus was born in 1439 when Gutenberg invented the printing press? Did they not think that Corinthians was written about a real place? Or did they think that they were unearthing some "dead culture" in an archaeological dig? Didn't understand, and still don't understand that kind of thinking.

I had no idea there would be so many people here sympathetic to the Orthodox tradition. I should have phrased what I said more tactfully.

Yes, and the number of those offended shouldn't have mattered.

[stripes1776]

The Eastern Roman Empire preserved much of Roman and Greek knowledge and passed it on to us, this crap about the Arabs doing that is nonsense.

There are more roads to Rome than through Byzantium. The Arabs ruled Spain for many centuries. They also captured Sicily. The Middle Ages got many of the works of Aristotle through Islamic Sicily--translated from Greek to Arabic to Latin by Jewish translators. Only later in the Renaissance did the West recover the original Greeks texts from the scholars of Byzantium fleeing the Islamic invasion of the Empire (if you can call the little territory it controlled in 1453 AD an Empire.) It is a complex subject.

But it would be very misleading to ascribe the brilliance of the Middle Ages to sources in Byzantium or Islam. And even more misleading to deny at all the brilliance of the Middle Ages in their own right.

[dangus]

>>>> I had no idea there would be so many people here sympathetic to the Orthodox tradition. I should have phrased what I said more tactfully. <<<<

>> Yes, and the number of those offended shouldn’t have mattered <<

Well, ya see, normally such comments are written in the expectation that only Catholics will read them and get offended.

[chuck_the_tv_out]

"[first 1000 years] which hasn't changed it's Liturgy or style of worship since then"

maybe so, but a 1000 years is still a very long time. A lot of problems came into the church after only a few hundred years.

As Paul said, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them". And he was exactly right. Just because something has been around a very long time, even a tradition going back even as much as 1500 years, doesn't make it right.

"the number of those offended shouldn't have mattered"

It didn't.

1) I had no idea there would be so many people here sympathetic to the Orthodox tradition.

2) I should have phrased what I said more tactfully.

I have no real problem with the Orthodox church! To me "smells & bells" isn't a huge indictment. I would have the same description for the Church of England.

[kronos77]

True. It is “Da vinci code” kind of c**p.
“He kissed Marry, they must have ben secretly married!”
Typical nonscence of Western Christianity.

(for those who dont know, kissing and being close with women is an act of love, not sex or marriage in eastern Christianity even today)

[chuck_the_tv_out]

“True. It is “Da vinci code” kind of c**p.
“He kissed Marry, they must have ben secretly married!”
Typical nonscence of Western Christianity.”

how does the da vinci code = western chistianity?

[litehaus]

"Such PC crap."

Hells Bells ! Just tell the muzzies we want the 'Hi Ya Sophie' back as a CHURCH !

[kronos77]

It is based upon western christianity (Catholicism) and its dogma, entire novell is fantasy based upon what westerners believe was life in His time.

Per example, being close with women without having sex, holding hands, kissing even (well, friendly kisses anyways) is still concidered normal in East.

Novell is based upon (and many other “married Jesuss theories) upon not knowing the customes in the East.

[Antoninus]

They still bastardized christianity into a smells & bells religion, but were still a lot better than muzzies

Love the smells and bells. Our Church still uses them, thank God!

[chuck_the_tv_out]

“entire novell is fantasy based upon what westerners believe was life in His time”

I see where you’re coming from, but that’s not really true. Yes, a lot of people don’t have a good idea of what life was like, but it’s a mistake to say what’s in Dan Brown’s head is representative.

AP, Reuters, etc, write untrue things every day, is the country the author comes from responsible? No, it’s just propaganda; a carefully thought-out manipulation. Just like the da vinci code.

I agree though, that the mainstream western culture has gone down a bad road. There are many people who don’t like it.

[Antoninus]

Nice. Real Fruit of the Spirit showing there. You’d better be careful, you’ll convert the whole room.

Coming from a guy who called all pre-Protestant Christianity "bastardized", you've got some nerve.

You should be asking every one of your Orthodox and Catholic brethren on this forum to forgive your ignorance.

[kronos77]

True, true.
Anyhows, there is a nice custom in Serbia, it is when a two persons of same or opposite sex “adopt” eachother, thus forming a sibling relationship. It streaches between races and religions. It is called , like “God-brother/God-sister” and they stey close for life, even more intimate and close than with sopuses of their own. I remember my late grandmother, she was God-sister to a grandpa Nejad, a Muslim Turk, real nice guy (sweet-shop keeper, wery convinient for us, kids LOL ) and they respected eachother till the last day.

[texmexis best]

“I had no idea there would be so many people here sympathetic to the Orthodox tradition.”

Lots of us.

Also some of us who feel that the Eastern Empire was the really successful Roman Empire. Outlasted Rome by 1,000 years. Not bad.

Probably didn’t hurt that the Eastern Empire was very Greek in culture and thought.

[chuck_the_tv_out]

"Love the smells and bells. Our Church still uses them, thank God!"

Since writing my original statement, I have considered how Mary worshipped Jesus at his feet with the expensive perfume. I still don't think that was an exhortation to ritual. But I shouldn't have referred to it as dismissively as I did.

[Antoninus]

Since writing my original statement, I have considered how Mary worshipped Jesus at his feet with the expensive perfume. I still don't think that was an exhortation to ritual. But I shouldn't have referred to it as dismissively as I did.

Apology accepted. You are a good man.

However, the temporal punishment due from your sin will still have to be paid in the form of at least 20 more posts railing at you for your original one from folks who didn't read all the way down the thread. :-)

[FormerLib]

chuck_the_tv_out: But I shouldn't have referred to it as dismissively as I did.

Antoninus: Apology accepted. You are a good man.

Indeed. I think we should take that as the end of this matter.

[Romulus]

I still don't think that was an exhortation to ritual.

No. But "do this in memory of Me" is.

A lot of problems came into the church after only a few hundred years.

Greater ritual -- what you call "problems"? -- emerged later because it was, well, dangerous for Christians to call attention to themselves. Using incense or bells could get you, you know, killed.

[Citizen Blade]

Fine. I’m not looking for an argument. You have your opinion, I have mine.

In what world does calling someone's religion "smells and bells" not constitute looking for an argument?