Posted on 01/19/2009 9:19:29 AM PST by GonzoII
Vatican City, Jan 19, 2009 / 11:15 am (CNA).- On Monday morning, Pope Benedict XVI received an ecumenical delegation of Finnish Lutherans and Catholics on the Feast of St. Henry, patron saint of Finland. The Holy Father spoke with the group about the progress made on a joint declaration about justification.
The ecumenical delegation, which was led by Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland Bishop Gustav Björkstrand on an annual pilgrimage to Rome for the Feast of St. Henry, met with the Pope at the Vatican.
Addressing the group in English, the Pope noted that "The Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue Commission in Finland and Sweden continues to consider the 'Joint Declaration on Justification.' This year we celebrate the tenth anniversary of this significant statement, and the commission is now studying its implications and the possibility of its reception."
Pope Benedict also highlighted the progress the dialogue has made in taking "ever fuller account of the nature of the Church as the sign and instrument of the salvation brought about in Jesus Christ, and not simply a mere assembly of believers or an institution with various functions."
Noting that the group's pilgrimage to Rome coincides with the Pauline Year, the Holy Father took the occasion to make a foray into the Catholic understanding of St. Paul’s teaching on the Church. "St. Paul reminds us of the marvelous grace we have received by becoming members of Christ's Body through Baptism. The Church is this mystical Body of Christ, and is continuously guided by the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of the Father and the Son.
"It is only based on this incarnational reality," he said in closing, "that the sacramental character of the Church as communion in Christ can be understood. A consensus with regard to the profoundly Christological and pneumatological (study of the Spirit) implications of the mystery of the Church would prove a most promising basis for the commission's work."
“What you guys don’t get is that if the scriptures agreed with your pope, there would be no religion besides yours...”
Sure there would, I. We’d still have Mohammedanism and Buddhism and Judaism, in fact we’d still have the hundreds, maybe even thousands of little ecclesial groups which are generically called “protestant”. None of them teach the same “religion” as that taught and preserved for 2000 years by The Church. Why, aside from some Jews, the “religions” I’ve mentioned don’t even worship the same God as those of us in The Church do.
As for scripture agreeing with the pope, or better said from an Orthodox pov, The Church, well, as I have said before, The Church decided what was “in” the Canon and what was “out” and it made that determination based on Holy Tradition. The Church teaches so much of scripture as agrees with what The Church has always and everywhere believed, not the other way around (for example, the NT is riddled with apparent Arian and Nestorian thought, not to speak of Adoptionism, etc. The Church does not teach those heresies.). That notion is a 16th century innovation dreamed up by prideful and disobedient people who were mad, perhaps justifiably so, at a pope. The result of that innovation has been theologically “unfortunate” as it has given new life to old heresies and heresies never turn out well for humanity.
We believe that The Church through the Mysteria is indeed God’s ordained instrument of salvation/theosis. Christians have always believed that. A relatively small group of theological revolutionaries came up with another idea 500 years ago, again because they were mad at a pope, and prideful.
“Do yourself a favor and read some scripture....”
The same scripture you read that was defined by The Church for The Church’s purposes and with and by The Church’s methods and efficacious only by The Church’s understandng...that scripture?
“and not simply a mere assembly of believers
That mere assembly of believers is what constitutes the ‘Body’ of Christ...”
Only within The Church, where the assembly of believers is a liturgical community, assembled around the bishop and focused on the Eucharist. Nothing else is The Church, which is the Body of Christ.
This is the Catholic Church.
The books you say are not necessary were included in the canon by the Church in the 4th Century.
Catholic ping!
God is one and truth is one.
Find me just two "scripture readers" who actually agree on what they mean, then get back to us.
Until then, there's plenty to discuss.
But that doesn't solve the translation problem.
When the Old Testament is quoted in the New (including when it is quoted by Jesus, as in Luke 4:18) it is generally not the Hebrew as recognized today in Judaism, but the Greek of the Septuagint. Which varies substantially from the Hebrew.
Which is why the teaching authority of the Church is so valuable. There will be disagreements in translation, and they will either be resolved by someone in authority, or they will be personally "wrested", as St. Peter said.
The Pharisees had the same problem...
This is why Jesus said... “few will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”
The Pharisees didn't have a solution, but Jesus did. Matthew 16:18; John 21:15-17.
Well, that depends on which Hebrew or Aramaic canon you use.
The Dead Sea scrolls, for instance, are a lot closer to the LXX than was previously thought possible.
What will be interesting is who is invited to the table. Will it be the liberal or conservative Lutherans. I suspect the former.
Not quite complete, April, Maccabees I and II are missing.
Without the Chuch, how would people know the Gospel?
Bravo, bravo, well stated Kolo. I ran up against this Freeper Iscool on another theological thread with basically the same argument on his/her part for sola scriptura as you are dealing with here. I made most of your same argument. Believe me, you are wasting your breath. However, I love your argumentation, so continue anyhow so the rest of us can read it and benefit from it.
Biblical Christianity holds that men are totally depraved and are justified before a holy God as a gift by His grace through faith alone, completely apart from works (Romans 3:19–28 [Rom. 3:20, 3:24, 3:28], 4:3, 4:5, 5:1, 5:9; and Ephesians 2:8–9).
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.