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An Act of Abortion? In The Bible?
01/26/2009 | Responsibility2nd

Posted on 01/26/2009 7:49:31 AM PST by Responsibility2nd

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1 posted on 01/26/2009 7:49:31 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: wagglebee

Abortion ping.


2 posted on 01/26/2009 7:50:22 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: Responsibility2nd

A Child born and tossed in a field is murder, not abortion.


3 posted on 01/26/2009 8:03:34 AM PST by joesbucks (Sarah Palin: "I believe John McCain is the best leader that we have in the nation right now,)
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To: Responsibility2nd

I doubt this scripture has anything to do with abortion. It is God describing through Ezekiel the nature of the nation of Israel, how they were an outcast and how they owed all they were to him.


4 posted on 01/26/2009 8:05:27 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: joesbucks
A child that could have survived if it had been born but is instead ripped from it's mother's womb is also murder. Μολὼν λάβε
5 posted on 01/26/2009 8:06:24 AM PST by wastoute (translation of tag "Come and get them (bastards)")
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To: P8riot
This scripture is very relevant. Ezekiel tried to warn Israel that their acts of infant sacrifice were such an abomination to The Lord that he would turn his back on them. They wouldn't listen and so he left. Ezekiel says the sound of God leaving was like the sound of mighty water that he actually heard (think Niagra Falls?). In our time we have "multiculturalism" and our nation that was founded unmistably on Christian values (if you have any doubt about this I am certain others could bury you in references from the Founders to this end) now shares the public space with Human Secularism which IS a religion even if there are no houses of worship per se. Human Secularism has it's tithe (the Federal Tax) and it has it's sacrament (abortion). It is a religion of idolatry. The Lord will not long tolerate our idolatry and the Blessings of Liberty we have enjoyed for two ceturies are at risk because of our idolatry. This is extremely relevant scripture. Μολὼν λάβε
6 posted on 01/26/2009 8:12:32 AM PST by wastoute (translation of tag "Come and get them (bastards)")
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To: joesbucks

Abortion and Murder are one and the same


7 posted on 01/26/2009 8:16:35 AM PST by Mind Freed
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To: Responsibility2nd

While I am 100% opposed to murdering the unborn, and opposed to government either allowing it, endorsing it, or funding it, I think that this take off of Ezekiel is one of the most ridiculous manipulations of Scripture I have ever seen.


8 posted on 01/26/2009 8:20:29 AM PST by John Leland 1789
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To: joesbucks

“A Child born and tossed in a field is murder, not abortion.”

It’s both. Abortion is a euphemism for murder as it is.


9 posted on 01/26/2009 8:27:44 AM PST by RinaseaofDs
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To: John Leland 1789; Mind Freed

I read a Bible verse (I forget which one), which states, “Anyone who causes a pregnant woman to lose her baby shall be stoned to death.”


10 posted on 01/26/2009 8:28:07 AM PST by PhilCollins
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To: John Leland 1789

You can’t find the symbolism in this passage between killing an unwanted child and the act of abortion?

I suspect your ability to read and interpret other symbolic passages - such as the Parables - is just about nil.


11 posted on 01/26/2009 8:33:36 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: P8riot

God uses Israel through out the Old Testament as a symbol of his chosen people. This verse can describe abortion, however I can see yours and others point about this verse being taken out of context a little bit. Exegesis can be dangerous when reading the bible if not read in the context, but in this case, I don’t think it is very far off.


12 posted on 01/26/2009 8:39:08 AM PST by Mind Freed
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To: Responsibility2nd

Obama says that “when life begins” is above his pay grade.

Can you be “a little bit pregnant”? There lies the answer.


13 posted on 01/26/2009 8:43:39 AM PST by a fool in paradise (Obama thinks spending tax $ on abortions in Mexico helps more than controlling illegal imigration)
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To: wastoute
What separates man from beast is the soul. Scripture says Adam received his soul when God breathed into his nostrils.

That's why it's abortion before birth and murder after.

14 posted on 01/26/2009 8:45:37 AM PST by joesbucks (Sarah Palin: "I believe John McCain is the best leader that we have in the nation right now,)
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To: joesbucks
Scripture says Adam received his soul when God breathed into his nostrils.

Really?

Reference please.

15 posted on 01/26/2009 8:48:52 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: Responsibility2nd
The Scripture is about Israel's sin. God is telling them they would be nothing without Him. The field they were tossed in was Egypt. God alone rescued them from their ordeal. A quick look at Mathew Henry's Commentaries would explain every word and verse.

Abortion is, OTOH as old as murder, and that started in the Garden. The trick to understanding God is to see how He describes things with His Word. Things He loves include children and wives. He uses references to children to describe His love for us. I don't think you can find one instance in the Bible that makes a child an unwanted thing. Most references seem to make a barren woman "cursed", and God "blesses" them with a miracle child. When Israel strayed from Him, He described them as "adulterous" or whores and prostitutes.

He is just describing His feelings towards the people He loves as they hurt Him. God has done everything to show His love for us, yet we reject Him at every turn. He gave His Son for us even before we have repented, yet we still fight His Will. I'm sure God could come up with some meaningful metaphors for us, but rejecting Him even after he took us in from a field, naked and alone, helpless as a baby, dumped off as trash in a field, is pretty powerful stuff. We were orphaned and He adopted us. We are helpless in this world, yet He provides all our needs. You would think some respect and gratitude would be in order, but our stiff necks seem to get in the way.

16 posted on 01/26/2009 8:54:06 AM PST by chuckles
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To: Responsibility2nd

It is this type of misuse of Scripture that makes the anti-abortion folks seem so out there. Make your arguments based on life or whatever but do not misuse the word of God to please yourself


17 posted on 01/26/2009 8:54:41 AM PST by the long march
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To: the long march

See reply # 11.

Applies to you too.


18 posted on 01/26/2009 9:03:50 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: a fool in paradise

“Can you be “a little bit pregnant”? There lies the answer.”

The perfect answer is “If it’s not really a baby, you’re not really pregnant.”

So, if you’re not really pregnant, an abortion becomes unnecessary.


19 posted on 01/26/2009 9:09:24 AM PST by Salamander ( Cursed with Second Sight.)
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To: PhilCollins
I read a Bible verse (I forget which one), which states, “Anyone who causes a pregnant woman to lose her baby shall be stoned to death.”

It is in the descriptions under the 10 commandments....

Exodus 21

Starting with 21:22 through 21:25

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0221.htm

20 posted on 01/26/2009 9:13:32 AM PST by LowOiL (Tagline: Optional, printed after your name on post)
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To: joesbucks
What separates man from beast is the soul. Scripture says Adam received his soul when God breathed into his nostrils. That's why it's abortion before birth and murder after.

Uh. That's like saying Adam, seconds before God breathed his soul into him, was only cannibal food.

Creation is a process, not simply an event (or did you flunk biology?) And that process even starts before conception and continues thereafter. Not only does God do the in-womb knitting, but especially note verse 16 of Psalm 139:13-16 and Jer. 1:5:

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

Jeremiah spoke as God's mouthpiece: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

Therefore, our creation has an otherly-dimension about it -- we can't be reduced to mere beasts residing in human wombs pre-birth.

Aside from all of this, you'll note that if we were going to take your distinction seriously, and claim that Adam's creation was our prototype, too, then none of us would have belly buttons. Your breath of life, hooked to your respirator Mom, occurred in the womb.

21 posted on 01/26/2009 9:13:36 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: joesbucks

Isn’t abortion also murder?


22 posted on 01/26/2009 9:17:08 AM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: Responsibility2nd

Good biblical burn...


23 posted on 01/26/2009 9:19:01 AM PST by stuartcr (If the end doesn't justify the means...why have different means?)
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To: joesbucks

A Child born and tossed in a field is murder, not abortion.

+++++

I once heard the term “Postpartum Abortion” used as a joke, but I think the idea fits here.


24 posted on 01/26/2009 9:25:46 AM PST by fproy2222
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To: Responsibility2nd

Gen 2:7
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Seems pretty obvious to me.


25 posted on 01/26/2009 9:26:35 AM PST by Ro_Thunder ("Other than ending SLAVERY, FASCISM, NAZISM and COMMUNISM, war has never solved anything")
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To: Responsibility2nd
Passage has nothing to do with abortion. It is addressed to the city of Jerusalem and how God made it spiritually beautiful. Personifying Jerusalem as a woman or wife is done elsewhere in Scripture.
26 posted on 01/26/2009 9:35:45 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Responsibility2nd
"Son of man, confront Jerusalem...

I can appreciate your attempt here but the Heavenly Father is not talking about a flesh being, but His most favorite piece of real estate upon this earth.

27 posted on 01/26/2009 9:55:17 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Colofornian
Jeremiah spoke as God's mouthpiece: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

That was in reference to one specific individual if you'll read the whole passage.

As for the soul reference and Adam, read Genesis 2:7

28 posted on 01/26/2009 9:57:01 AM PST by joesbucks (Sarah Palin: "I believe John McCain is the best leader that we have in the nation right now,)
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To: joesbucks
I have to admit that is an argument that I have never heard. So it isn't life before respiration? Μολὼν λάβε
29 posted on 01/26/2009 9:59:26 AM PST by wastoute (translation of tag "Come and get them (bastards)")
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To: Just mythoughts
"Son of man, confront Jerusalem...

Finish the verse, please...

Son of man, confront Jerusalem with her detestable practices...

And the number one detestable practice in this passage? The killing of unwanted children.(Abortion) If abortion as we know it was availabe then... they would have been doing it.

30 posted on 01/26/2009 10:07:55 AM PST by Responsibility2nd
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To: wastoute

If Adam’s shaping literally as the KJV renders the story from the clay like a potter’s plaything was indeed his genesis, then that would have no bearing on the ensoulment of his descendants shaped within their mother’s wombs. The unique manner in which God kicked off the process would have no bearing on the different manner by which He elected to sustain it.


31 posted on 01/26/2009 10:09:31 AM PST by Philo-Junius (One precedent creates another. They soon accumulate and constitute law.)
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To: Responsibility2nd

—New International Version does not provide the Bible student means and methods of finding words used in the original.

I have read the rest, but from the King James which reads a bit different. And because I can look for myself from the Strong’s what words the translators used actually mean and in this case Hebrew.


32 posted on 01/26/2009 10:16:18 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Responsibility2nd
Well, in the sense that Cain killed Able (sp?), you could call that a very later term abortion by the standards of a liberal.
33 posted on 01/26/2009 10:18:00 AM PST by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: joesbucks
That was in reference to one specific individual if you'll read the whole passage.

(Yeah, God the Creator -- the "Individual" who sovereignly knows people before they are knit & woven together in the womb...What? You think God has a "vision" problem and has trouble seeing the cloudy future?)

As for the soul reference and Adam, read Genesis 2:7

Yeah, well all that shows is that Adam was no "momma's boy" It didn't mean that had the Serpent Satan happened to have had a demon abortionist at his side minutes before God ensouled Adam that Adam would have been fair game to dismemberment.

So what? You think Adam was initially created a "beast" and only became a human person thereafter?

By your logic, abortions upon nine-month gestationally aged pre-borns are A-OK.

34 posted on 01/26/2009 10:23:22 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: stuartcr; joesbucks
Isn’t abortion also murder?

Of course it is. (Elsewise, those who claim it isn't have to concede that Jesus was not only "fair game" in the womb, but that no blood-guilt would have been incurred had He been aborted by his unmarried teen Mom)

35 posted on 01/26/2009 10:26:30 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: fproy2222

36 posted on 01/26/2009 10:39:50 AM PST by Colonial Warrior (Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction.)
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To: Responsibility2nd

You are properly angered in your spirit with regard to the murder of the unborn. The passage has to do with the birth of a people — a nation — Israel. Nobody, no unborn child, no infant either, dies in that passage.


37 posted on 01/26/2009 10:49:00 AM PST by John Leland 1789
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To: Philo-Junius
Well the use of that passage certainly ignores God's exhorttion to Jeremiah that he "knew him before he was even in his mother's womb." I would think it hard to make a biblical case FOR abortion. But then some try to make a biblical sase aginst the 2nd Amend. which is the issue I am MOST concerned about. Μολὼν λάβε
38 posted on 01/26/2009 11:06:40 AM PST by wastoute (translation of tag "Come and get them (bastards)")
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To: John Leland 1789; Responsibility2nd

If one wants to use Scripture to defend a stance against abortion, there are more than enough passages that speak of the evils of taking innocent life or harming a woman and her unborn child while she is pregnant. There is absolutely no need to pervert this Passage of it’s actual meaning.


39 posted on 01/26/2009 11:16:21 AM PST by raynearhood ("I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels" -John Calvin)
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To: Responsibility2nd; P-Marlowe; enat; wagglebee; narses

This is about foundling Israel being accepted by God and covenanted with God.

The imagery, though, is of one who’s just been born, isn’t it? I believe the Spartans would dispose of unwanted babies that way.

It isn’t an abortion, but it is an attempted infanticide. It is also an allegory, and Ezekiel uses many, many allegories.


40 posted on 01/26/2009 11:22:44 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain, Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: joesbucks
and in regard to your tag I think Palin can be defended perfectly well for saying McCain AT THAT TIME was the best choice for leader (because she was the "next round in the chamber"). Μολὼν λάβε
41 posted on 01/26/2009 11:26:25 AM PST by wastoute (translation of tag "Come and get them (bastards)")
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To: xzins

Here is a thread I posted today by Albert Mohler (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) on abortion:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2171989/posts


42 posted on 01/26/2009 11:26:48 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Colofornian
Of course it is. (Elsewise, those who claim it isn't have to concede that Jesus was not only "fair game" in the womb, but that no blood-guilt would have been incurred had He been aborted by his unmarried teen Mom)

The fact remains it could have happened. It didn't. And if it did, then that embryo Mary carried would not have been the Savior.

43 posted on 01/26/2009 1:02:16 PM PST by joesbucks (Sarah Palin: "I believe John McCain is the best leader that we have in the nation right now,)
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To: Colofornian

I didn’t write Genesis 2:7. All I can say is as it is written until God breathed life into Adam, he did not receive his soul.


44 posted on 01/26/2009 1:03:15 PM PST by joesbucks (Sarah Palin: "I believe John McCain is the best leader that we have in the nation right now,)
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To: joesbucks

Of which abortion is murder. Quit nit-picking, its wrong and you know it.


45 posted on 01/26/2009 1:12:32 PM PST by vpintheak (Like a muddied spring or a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way to the wicked. Prov. 25:26)
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To: joesbucks
And if it did, then that embryo Mary carried would not have been the Savior.

"Nice" to comprehend that you think Jesus was abortable.

46 posted on 01/26/2009 1:43:46 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Responsibility2nd
"On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean . . . No one looked on you with pity or had compassion . . . Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised."

Replace "open field" with "shelf" and this sounds a lot like a practice a certain State Senator now President voted in support of.

47 posted on 01/26/2009 1:57:23 PM PST by Oratam
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To: Colofornian
"Nice" to comprehend that you think Jesus was abortable.

Mary could have aborted. But God wouldn't have given the child to Mary if she was going to abort it.

But what if she had a physical mishap or had been harmed? The outcome could have been the same as your concern about an abortion. the embryo may not have come to term.

You're argument is designed to be emotional rather than a logical what could have happened.

48 posted on 01/26/2009 2:24:59 PM PST by joesbucks (Sarah Palin: "I believe John McCain is the best leader that we have in the nation right now,)
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To: Responsibility2nd

It doesn’t describe abortion, It is infantacide.

A distinction without a difference.


49 posted on 01/26/2009 5:26:40 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: raynearhood

“If one wants to use Scripture to defend a stance against abortion, there are more than enough passages that speak of the evils of taking innocent life or harming a woman and her unborn child while she is pregnant. There is absolutely no need to pervert this Passage [Ezekiel 16] of it’s actual meaning.”


Absolutely correct. Thank you.


50 posted on 01/26/2009 6:24:34 PM PST by John Leland 1789
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