Posted on 03/30/2009 3:33:47 PM PDT by chase19
Thank you UK Muslims: Rowan Williams
28/03/2009 01:02:00 PM GMT
src="http://islamicmediacity.com/cms_files/news_images/1238234391.jpg";> (nola.com) I think Islam has made a very significant contribution to getting a debate about religion into public life, Williams said.
CAIRO — In an unprecedented move by a Western Christian leader, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams has praised British Muslims for bringing back religion and ethics into public life.
"I think Islam has made a very significant contribution to getting a debate about religion into public life," Williams, the leader of the Anglican Church, told the Muslim News.
"And I think it's very right that we should have these debates and discussions between Muslims and Christians and others in public."
Britain is home to more than two million Muslims.
This is the first time a Western Christian leader thanks Muslims for bringing back religion to a secular Western society.
"Both Muslims and Christians have a very strong sense of God's will being done in community, when we really follow the needs of the community and work for one another on that in the will of God."
The Anglican leader, however, admitted that the Christian Muslim Forum, which he initiated in 2001 for brining (sic) UK Muslims and Christians together, had not reached the grassroots so far.
"The conversation of the elite and intellectuals isn't in itself going to change anything," he pointed out.
"We've got to deal with it and complicated questions, but we have to make good neighbors."
The Archbishop stressed the significant role of faith schools in enhancing interfaith dialogue and community harmony.
"Keep the presence of religion in our educational institutions and I think there is a lot that can be done there," he said.
Williams has repeatedly defend (sic) faith schools in Britain as contributing to the promotion of religious tolerance.
He asserted that faith schools are already proven in their ability to reach out across faith boundaries and help to build confidence in minority communities. Source: IslamOnline
Well, I think he has a point.
Muslim Koran says kill Christians and Jews they are infidels - plain and simple. Read the Koran, that is what it says. Thank you muslims.
The UK is so far down the crapper that their only hope of keeping freereligion practice from being outlawed is the presence of muslims. That’s pretty damn sad and coming to America too.
Without endorsing Islam, I think our secularized societies, especially Britain, should rethink our committments to Christianity and willingness to defend it on the public square with the vigor so apparent among the Muslims. It doesn’t mean we should imitate them, certainly not their violent ways. however, we should ask ourselves: what is our Christian culture worth to us? Are we committed to the secular relativism that created the cultural vacuum into which the Mulsim rushed, or are we committed to our own religion and culture?
I agree with Rowan Williams. I’m sure he agrees with me that Muslims everywhere should be thanked wholeheartedly for 1400 years worth of killing, butchering, murdering, raping, pillaging, brutalizing, debasing and debauching, all in the name of a filthy 7th century pedophile. Allah (snort...hock...ptooi) Akbar.
Cultural relativism is of no interest to me. I have lived in the Middle East and in Britain. Texas is better. Islam is fundamentally anti- western and at odds with basic freedom, liberty and human rights. I believe in borders, culture and language. I believe in God and the saving grace of the Holy Spirit through a personal relationship with Christ the Lord. My life is rich and meaningful.
Multiculturalism has not added much to my life except perhaps some good restaurants. Religions like Islam that brand me as an Infildel creep me out. Read the Azzam Fatwa some day. It is a death sentence for people like me.
Yes, but Islam has reminded us why borders, culture and language are important if we are to stay free. That, I think, is the gratitude to Islam that Williams had in mind and I agree with him on that.
Excellent points. I often wonder if God isn’t allowing the West to be overrun by Muslims for two reasons: to show us again what zeal for ones faith means, and also to awaken the lapsed and complacent Church back into reality, and to give up on secular humanism. God often allowed OT Israel to be overrun, when it turned away from Him. Why would He act any differently today? If it weren’t for the anger I feel at radical Muslims and “moderate” ones for not standing up to the radical ones, I would almost feel pity on them for having such zeal and desire to worship God. Too bad they chose the wrong one. Perhaps this is the point the Archbishop is making.
dhimmitude bump
Christian-Muslim talks change nothing. They are just a stall tactic to try and silence the crtiics of Islam. All the while their agenda moves forward. Only a fool like this guy would be thankful to a group of people who follow a backwards violent religion that allows lying and rape.
MESSAGE TO NON-MUSLIMS, THE ISLAMIC WORLD IS NOT CHANGING. ISN’T 1400 YEARS OF EVIDENCE ENOUGH? It will their way of life or ours.
No it is not. The man is a dhimmi and Islamic butt kisser who support sharia courts in the UK. The man is a huge part of the problem. If he is for freedom he would not support sharia in any form.
Yes, and there is a third reason: to draw a sharp distinction between the Islamic way and the Chrisitan way in dealing with adversaries. Future generations will learn from that, at our expense.
What is the Christian way of dealing with them?
Incidentally, his comment about sharia courts was misrepresented by the media.
The Archbishop made no proposals for sharia in either the lecture or the interview, and certainly did not call for its introduction as some kind of parallel jurisdiction to the civil law.Instead, in the interview, rather than proposing a parallel system of law, he observed that "as a matter of fact certain provisions of sharia are already recognised in our society and under our law" . When the question was put to him that: "the application of sharia in certain circumstances - if we want to achieve this cohesion and take seriously peoples' religion - seems unavoidable?", he indicated his assent.
Also see: Archbishop's Lecture - Civil and Religious Law in England: a Religious Perspective
In the seventh conversation (διάλεξις - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to some of the experts, this is probably one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness that we find unacceptable, on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”[3] The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (σὺν λόγω) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".[4]The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature.[5] The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.[6] Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazm went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practise idolatry.[7]
At this point, as far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we are faced with an unavoidable dilemma.
[3] Controversy VII, 2 c: Khoury, pp. 142-143; Förstel, vol. I, VII. Dialog 1.5, pp. 240-241. In the Muslim world, this quotation has unfortunately been taken as an expression of my personal position, thus arousing understandable indignation. I hope that the reader of my text can see immediately that this sentence does not express my personal view of the Qur’an, for which I have the respect due to the holy book of a great religion. In quoting the text of the Emperor Manuel II, I intended solely to draw out the essential relationship between faith and reason. On this point I am in agreement with Manuel II, but without endorsing his polemic.[4] Controversy VII, 3 b–c: Khoury, pp. 144-145; Förstel vol. I, VII. Dialog 1.6, pp. 240-243.
[5] It was purely for the sake of this statement that I quoted the dialogue between Manuel and his Persian interlocutor. In this statement the theme of my subsequent reflections emerges.
[6] Cf. Khoury, p. 144, n. 1.
[7] R. Arnaldez, Grammaire et théologie chez Ibn Hazm de Cordoue, Paris 1956, p. 13; cf. Khoury, p. 144. The fact that comparable positions exist in the theology of the late Middle Ages will appear later in my discourse
Papal Address at University of Regensburg
Please do not try and justify him. I follow the issue of Islam in the West very closely and he clearly supports the sharia courts there.
inassimilablehttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3328024.ece
Islam is an ideology hellbent on world domination and will destroy Christianity if not stopped. This so called leader is a disgrace to freedom and the UK.
Sharia is barbaric and unfair to non-Muslims. This statment says it all about him.
if we are to think intelligently about the relations between Islam and British law, we need a fair amount of ‘deconstruction’ of crude oppositions and mythologies, whether of the nature of sharia or the nature of the Enlightenment”
Now the sharia courts have stepped it up a notch and have started handling criminal cases such as domestic violence. Pandora’s Box has been opened.
So what you are telling me is that past Pope’s who ordered the Crusades and saved the world from Islamic rule did not know Christianity? For some reason I doubt that very much.
Turning the other cheek at a time of war, is a death sentence. No thanks. There is no reasoning with Islamists and they do not care about our man made laws.
I quoted from His Grace's blog.
Islam is an ideology hellbent on world domination and will destroy Christianity if not stopped
I agree.
past Pope’s who ordered the Crusades and saved the world from Islamic rule did not know Christianity?
The Crusades were defensive wars to protect Christian populations, pilgrimage routes and the Holy Relics. They were fully justified and the Regensburg address does not say otherwise, as they were not wars of conversion. I think we will have to fight another set soon.
However, I don't think we as a culture today are in any kind of shape to fight religious wars. We should fix our own spiritual house first. Part of the problem is our lukewarm faith. Along that road, the Muslims give us a valuable lesson. So, I agree with Williams on thanking them.
I quoted him also. It is easy to see he supports their own courts. But we just disagree here, so lets move on.
It seems that the world is always on the defense of Islamic takeover.
It also seems that much of the West does not even know who wer are anymore. Much of this is thanks to the liberal teachers.
Personally I am not religious but I understand your last point. In my eyes the only thing that will be able to stop the Islamic takeover is Christianity.
Did you see this today?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2219265/posts
Nice meeting you.
Yes, I’ve seen that. The fact is, Britain was pretty much enemy territory already, even before the first Muslim set foot there. For that reason, I am not ordinarily a supporter of Willians or the Anglican confession. I just thought on that score he had a point.
Best regards.
Everything that they are doing in the UK is rotting them away from within. Italy seems to be the only EU country that actually protects their identity.
“We should fix our own spiritual house first. Part of the problem is our lukewarm faith.”
Yes, which is why I believe Pope Benedict is working hard to unite us all under one roof so to speak. There are very strong Catholics, along with other strong allies, such as, the Baptists and Evangelicals (imo, our strongest), with support from Orthodox Jews, Orthodox Christians, Atheists, and Mainline Protestants. I continue to be amazed as to why so many people of different faiths, and non-religious, just don’t get the danger of Islam. One must fight fire with fire and I believe the greatest weapon against Islam is the Catholic Church simply because they are the Moral Authority of the West. Our weapons are the Holy Bible, Traditions and Magisterium against Islam’s Koran, Hadith, and Sharia. There is no comparison. The Church will play a major role when the time comes. I hope and pray Pope Benedict will still be here. Meanwhile we all have to pray that our weaker brethren will wake-up sooooon.
Pope Benedict to Muslims: True religion is rational, peaceful, and non-totalitarian
“Pope tells Muslims that religion rejects violence,” by Victor L. Simpson for the AP, March 19:
YAOUNDE, Cameroon (AP) — Pope Benedict XVI told Muslim leaders on Thursday that true religion rejects violence, and he held up peaceful coexistence between Christianity and Islam in Cameroon as “a beacon to other African nations.”[...]
“Genuine religion ... stands at the base of any authentically human culture,” he said. “It rejects all forms of violence and totalitarianism: not only on principles of faith but also of right reason.”[...]
The pope has often spoken of the need for religion to shun violence, but has refrained from pointing any finger at specific faiths since a 2006 speech delivered in Germany in which he linked Islam to violence...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iLJ2gzRRfTYc_YuS7r1yuwnmne-gD97119G02
The only reason they’re getting along in Cameroon at the moment, is because Muslims are currently a minority, but the Pope had to throw them a bone after his pointed criticism. They probably didn’t even take his ‘subtle’ critique about Islam personally anyway, thinking he was talking about the Jewish religion. I mean how on earth could the Pope mean them, they’re the Religion of Peace, doesn’t the MSM and most governments tell them that daily...
Anti-Muslim atheist leaves papers to Vatican
Updated Sat. Oct. 21 2006 11:34 PM ET
Associated Press
ROME — An Italian journalist and self-described atheist who died last month has left most of her books and notes to a pontifical university in Rome because of her admiration for Pope Benedict, a school official said Saturday.
Oriana Fallaci had described the pontiff as an ally in her campaign to rally Christians in Europe against what she saw as a Muslim crusade against the West. As she battled breast cancer last year, she had a private audience with Benedict, who had been elected only a few months earlier, at the papal summer residence in Castel Gandolfo.
In one of her final interviews, Fallaci told The Wall Street Journal: “I am an atheist, and if an atheist and a Pope think the same things, there must be something true.”
[...]
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061021/fallaci_vatican_061021
Pope Benedict didn’t want a repeat performance of Germany but he continues to give them hints that he’s onto them. Take the Baptism of the ex-Muslim he Baptized last year, for all the world to see, if it wasn’t to send a message. Oriana knew where the answer lay which is why she headed for the Vatican. He’s such a very strong, smart and brave man - no wonder Oriana Fallaci was impressed.
It is strange how the major non-Islamic religions have not united in self defense of Islam. Oriana Fallaci was a great woman who saw the problem coming a long time ago.
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