Posted on 04/04/2009 3:29:51 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
This is a distressing new Gallup poll. It shows that churchgoing Catholics are far more likely to approve of moral behavior (sex between unmarried people, homosexuality, etc.) that their church deems immoral than are churchgoing Protestants.
This is a conundrum to me, one I thought about a lot when I was a Catholic, and troubled over. Why is it that Catholics have a Pope and a Magisterium -- a clear teaching authority -- as well as a complex, coherent and profoundly intellectual moral theology ... and yet these things, which ought to give it a tremendous advantage in maintaining the obedience of its flock, avail the Catholic Church little? It shouldn't be that way, logically, but it is in practice.
Lee Podles, an orthodox Catholic, has some thoughts.
[I wish I didn't have to say this, but I do: this is not an anti-Catholic post, but rather intended to spark discussion on various reasons why this poll found the things it did. As someone who would like to raise my children to believe in what my faith teaches, I'd like to know what works, and what doesn't. Anybody who tries to derail the thread by making specious claims of anti-Catholicism will find their posts unpublished. So don't even start.]
Former Catholic, born again fundamentalist Baptist ping
Secularized Catholics are better at being protestants than protestants are evidently.
Navel-gazing dinglebob. (The author, I mean.)
Former “Bible thumping, evangelical fundamentalist” ping.
LOL... ridiculing absurdity I see. Good show.
It’s happening to all faiths. As society gets more depraved, the ooze of evil drips into all aspects of society. Even the most “devote” have felt the sting.
When you can repeat a few words or some such, and believe yourself absolved, it’s apparently perceived to be of little consequence.
I think there are several considerations. First of all is the fact that for 40 years, since Vatican II, Catholics have been allowed and sometimes actively taught to ignore the teachings of the Church. Only now, under BXVI, is this horrible era being brought to an end.
In addition, there’s no such thing as “The Protestant Church.” That is, there are lots of different Protestant churches, some of them more liberal, some of them less liberal. Since the very liberal ones are down to about five elderly members now (like the liberal Catholic parishes), the more alive Protestant churches, whatever their specific denomination, will have more dedicated members who have actually made a choice to be there.
Finally, there’s the fact that many Catholics do not leave the Church when they cease to agree with its moral or other teachings. They are cultural products and they just keep going because that’s what they do. On the other hand, Protestants who have made the effort to find an orthodox Protestant church will be more committed because they have actually made the effort in the first place, rather than coasting into it.
What you are seeing with Obama’s attack on the Church right now, btw, is an attempt to get the lousy, coast-along, “dissenting Catholic” group into official power in the Church. It’s not going to work, but he’s going to make it very hard for the good Catholics.
I’m still trying to figure out how anybody who claims Christ, be they Catholic, Baptist, Amish or whatever, could vote for 0bama, the most pro baby death politician of all times.
Yet, many of them did.
Finally, there’s the fact that many Catholics do not leave the Church when they cease to agree with its moral or other teachings. They are cultural products and they just keep going because that’s what they do. On the other hand, Protestants who have made the effort to find an orthodox Protestant church will be more committed because they have actually made the effort in the first place, rather than coasting into it.
An intelligent and well-spoken post as usual, livius. Thanks for pinging me to it.
Do the Amish cast votes? If so, how?
I think the dichotomy of Catholic vs. Protestant in this instance is a false one. Even among Protestants, there will be great differences regarding acceptance of this behavior (abortion, premarital sex, homosexuality, stem cell research, children outside marriage, gambling, divorce) between denominations. Probably greater thhan what this poll described.
For example, Episcopalians, ELCA Lutherans, UCC, etc, are quite probably more likely to sanction this behavior than are Traditional Anglicans, LCMS Lutherans, some Baptist Groups, and non-denominational “born again” Christians are.
Another problem I see, regarding the rearing of children, is far too many Christians leave the responsibility of teaching spiritual matters and values of the their children to the “church” rather than themselves. Considering the liberal infiltration of so many seminaries, it would not be surprising that the younger generation has adopted a more lax attitude toward morality.
They vote and from what I’ve read they vote as conservative as possible, I believe they voted for W in big numbers.
It’s called Free Will. We were gifted by God with the ability to choose our behaviors. We can decide to conform to His Will, or not, and we assume the responsibility for it. That works for every human, churched or unchurched.
This is neither a Catholic nor Protestant thing, but one where one follows Jesus Christ or you don’t. True believing Catholics and Protestants need to crack the Good Book open and teach from it. What we are seeing in Christendom today is carnal lukewarmedness and apostasy which is something that has plagued Christianity since the New Testament has been written. What Paul wrote in Phillippians 3:18-21 speaks perfectly to the moral mess we see today:
18For many live as enemies of the cross of Christ; I have often told you of them, and now I tell you even with tears. 19Their end is destruction; their god is the belly; and their glory is in their shame; their minds are set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship* is in heaven, and it is from there that we are expecting a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. 21He will transform the body of our humiliation* so that it may be conformed to the body of his glory,* by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself.
The RCC needs to put more emphasis on the primcy of God’s word rather than the primacy of Rome’s word.
In charity, too many Catholics haven’t seen the direct link from God to the words of the Bible, and the best way to fix that would be for Rome to recognize that God’s Word is supreme, without the filter of Roman authorities. I think the RC C would amplify their effectiveness if they were to do this.
“Yes” there are Amish who do vote, there are many many different subsets of “Amish’.
As for the OP, it is odd, the practicing Catholics I know are decent people, they aren’t...centered? For lack of a better term their Faith doesn’t guide and instruct them.
Seems that I know a lot of cradle Catholics who reject the church’s teachings yet call themselves Catholic for whatever reason. And then you have political ‘cafeteria’ Catholics who have invented their own God to try and assuage their conscience. I think a lot of weaker Catholics use their example to help justify themselves. This is why Pope Benedict seems to be a blessing so far. He seems to stand for what is right.
I agree. Many so called Christians would rather follow the world than follow Christ.
Exactly. I saw a bumper sticker today that said "Pope Benedict XVI says fight for innocent life." I was like, "Who cares what the pope says? GOD says to fight for innocent life."
This is about Catholics who are ignoring “Rome’s word”.
Freegards
For one, it’s a view and perception of sin...The Catholic church is far more liberal than Protestant churches when it condemns the totality of sinful practices...
Gambling is encouraged in the Catholic church...Not so in many Protestant churches...Drinking alcohol is encouraged in the Catholic church...The Protestants to a degree agree with God on this issues that alcohol creates all sorts of problems...
One of which is we all know that it’s far easier to talk a girl out of her clothes when she’s consumed copius amounts of the juice...
In the Catholic church, only heinious type sins are condemnable and require forgiveness...It’s not uncommon for a Catholic to g for a full year without confession and repentance...
Jesus hates ‘all’ sin...Many protestants confess their sins, big or small, daily, or hourly...
You wrote:
“In the Catholic church, only heinious type sins are condemnable and require forgiveness...”
You are COMPLETELY wrong. ALL sins require forgiveness. PERIOD. How we recieve that forgiveness can differ in regard to the seriousness of the effect of the sin. Mortal sins require auricular confession and absolution under normal circumstances. Venial sins do not.
If you’re going to talk about the Catholic faith, wouldn’t help for you to know what you’re talking about?
After Vatican II, many Ccatholic leaders wne nuts with liberalizing everything. As a result you see what we now have; an uneducated so-called Christian group who call them selves Catholic when, in fact, they are neither Catholic nor Christian. For othodox Catholics it has been a continual struggle to stand up for moral principles and for the basic belief in Jesus and his mercy.
The tide is turning, but unfortunately it has taken so long that severe damage has been wrought to millions of human souls who are more into the new-age religions than Christianity.
All anyone has to do is read:
“The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved”
by St. Leonard of Port Maurice
http://olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml
An example for those fallen away and disobedience.
“In the Catholic church, only heinious type sins are condemnable and require forgiveness...It’s not uncommon for a Catholic to g for a full year without confession and repentance...”
Faithful Catholics know that we sin every day of our lives. There is a constant need to confess our sinfullness to God and ask for mercy. We can do this ourselves when we say our evening prayers. Where did you get the idea that only heinous sins are condemnable? Perhaps it is that you are trying to describe what Catholics believe about Venial sin vs. mortal sin??? Mortal sin is considered to result in complete severance from God’s touch and graces. The soul is spiritually dead. In order to change the status of your soul, the Catholic must confess to a priest in the confessional and ask for forgiveness - which must be sincere with a resolution to avoid that sin in the future. If the person is not sincere, the confession is not valid. After all, God can read our souls.
I agree with what you have posted and have to add that many orthodox Catholics are now actively praying for the cleansing of the Church. I believe this has already begun and will continue. Remember that the gates of hell will NOT prevail....
Note to my Catholic friends: Educate or cleanse your faith of the “ethnic Catholics” and “cafeteria Catholics,” to say nothing of milquetoast clergy.
Good point. Catechizes has been flawed for a long time but getting better.
“Twenty-four percent of Catholics who attend Mass regularly say abortion is morally acceptable, compared to 19% of non-Catholic regular attendees. And more than half of Catholic regular worshipers say the same about embryonic stem cell research, compared to 45% of non-Catholic worshipers.”
What did people understand by “morally acceptable”? - “forgiving the sinner”? or “approving the practice”?
What did they mean regarding homosexuality? - “toleration of homosexuals”, which the Church encourages but evangelicals really don’t, or did they mean “moral approval of homosexual practices”? - which the Church doesn’t...
That's a Protestant way of framing the discussion, and one we can't accept as Catholics. It is the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, that permits us to understand what Scripture *means* - Scripture that reached its canonical state in the bosom of the Church herself. Tradition + Scripture - it is not an either/or proposition for us, but both/and. We *should* read Scripture more often - no question. We should also read the Church's doctors and Fathers, so that we read Scripture with them.
Having said that, I will offer an ecumenical observation: These days, the greatest sectarian quarrels are increasingly not between the denominations, but within them. A Missouri Synod Lutheran likely has much more in common with orthodox Catholics on moral teachings (and probably a good deal else) than he does with, say, a lot of what goes on in the ELCA.
There is nothing sinful about drinking alcohol. If there were, there would have to be some hard questions about Christ's first miracle.
Drinking to excess, certainly. But I don't see the Scriptural basis for tee-totaling as intrinsically necessary.
One of which is we all know that it’s far easier to talk a girl out of her clothes when she’s consumed copius amounts of the juice...
In the Catholic church, only heinous type sins are condemnable and require forgiveness...It’s not uncommon for a Catholic to g for a full year without confession and repentance...”>>>>
Gambling is encouraged??? Drinking is encouraged??? I suppose my Church should cancel its sponsorship and meetings of “Gambler's Anonymous” and Alcholics Anonymous
“heinous” Strange name for mortal sin. Have we not ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God?
It is apparent you know very little of the Catholic Church and its teaching.
Note to Clemenza: Worry about your church and they can worry about theirs.
...many orthodox Catholics are now actively praying for the cleansing of the Church. ....
All Christians should do this. There is a lot of cleansing needed throughout the body of Christ.
The Catholic private schools in my area (San Jose) seem very liberal to me. They have the Day of Silence for Gays, they were openly supporting Obama, they were against Prop 8.
If their schools are liberal, it means they are teaching those kids to be liberal.
I will say that I think the mainstream protestant churches have also gone very liberal. The Methodist church that I grew up with in the 70s is very different from the Methodist church of today. I’m not a Methodist anymore. It’s too liberal for me.
What, exactly, is an orthodox Protestant? There are so damn many sects.
Besides, isn’t the gist of Protestantism that you read the Bible, have a chat with Jesus, and make up your own mind about everything? How hard is it to stick to that?
Duh.
Again, duh.
As we’ve seen with a number of Protestant churches lately, some ordained yahoo can easily and willfully misinterpret the Bible to fit whatever agenda they have, such as promoting homosexuality, and might manage to convince plenty of others in that church to go along with it
To be fair, there are a great number of non-catholic (protestant) ministers and pastors who interpret the Bible correctly and honestly, without a magisterium. For these ministers, the mechanism to condemn false teachings is the Bible.
Protestants are raised to take pride in themselves, sometimes to a ridiculous level and Catholics are raise to shame themselves too much.
Protestants are taught that there is no need to be a martyr because there was only one and Catholics are busy trying make their children into martyrs through shame and this leaves them open to the first people who come along who tell them it's too much of a burden.
Also, a person who is excessively shamed is highly open to all the false doctrine, self pride and criticism, that is being tossed about by the left. Commies know how it works and they take advantage of it.
Protestants automatically assume they are right (sorry friends...I'm getting to it) but leave room for questions, so they are less venerable to false attacks from our human demons. This is where they get the "stubbornness" "pride-full" label.
The other obstacle....a living martyr does not protect themselves well. In other words, the shield is not up on a street level. They are taken advantage of far too often and from what I have seen will destroy themselves trying to win others.
I hope all understand...these are just generalizations and I'm well aware that there are many, many people who don't fit these descriptions.
A fair number of high-profile Catholics would seem to fit into this category, then. Maybe they can buy an indulgence. I hear they're coming back.
I am a Protestant. In the pro-life movement I have worked with many very moral Catholics. But I do think that the Catholic church does not discipline its members effectively, if at all.
Witness the large numbers of Catholic legislators advocating abortion, voting for abortion, etc., yet kept on as members in good standing in the Catholic church.
Witness Catholic universities inviting rabid pro-abortion and other immoral speakers for commencement, etc. Not only are the speakers allowed, the inviters aren’t disciplined.
Witness the fact that as a new Christian I wandered into several Catholic churches and partook of mass with no understanding of what on earth I was doing. No one questioned me, asked me where I was from, anything. I was just served.
In short, there is little if any church discipline in the Catholic church. They have some high moral standards but do not hold anyone to them.
In my Protestant church, no one takes communion without being screened by the elders. No one is publicly supporting abortion in any way. The only speakers we have are in compliance with church standards.
A church that performs same-sex “marriage” isn’t even Christian, fr_freak, let alone Protestant, no matter what husk of a building they’re occupying, or what name they claim.
Your Magisterium doesn’t seem especially effective with the “do whatever they want” crowd, either.
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