Georgian monastics driven out of Abkhazia

messenger.com.ge ^ | April 6, 2009 | Temuri Kiguradze

[Tailgunner Joe]

Should Russian Orthodox priests therefore be expelled from Ukraine and Georgia?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

[Kolokotronis]

“...the Abkhazian Orthodox Church”

As +Alexey of blessed memory pointed out, there’s no such thing.

“Should Russian Orthodox priests therefore be expelled from Ukraine and Georgia?”

You misunderstand the ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church. Ukraine is part of the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church, though there are, I believe, two schismatic groups there claiming to be the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I doubt there are many, if any, Russian Orthodox priests in Georgia as Georgia, and Abkhazia and South Ossetia are in the jurisdiction of the Georgian Orthodox Church. Any Russian priests functioning there are doing so with the permission of the Georgian Church.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Russia does not respect Georgia's rightful claim over Abkhazia, so why should Ukraine respect the Russian church's “jurisdiction” in Ukraine? Russia should be treated they way they treat their orthodox Georgian “brothers.”

[FormerLib]

Wow, you really don’t know enough about the Orthodox Church to fill up a matchbook, do you?

I’d encourage you to stop before you embarrass yourself any further.

[Tailgunner Joe]

I know that the Georgian Orthodox Church has jurisdiction in Abkhazia and that the anti-Christian nazi government of Russia does not respect that jurisdiction. So why should any nation respect the jurisdiction of the Russian church? It will be Putin’s fault when Ukraine treats the Russian Orthodox the way Russia treats the Georgian Orthodox.

[Tailgunner Joe]

The new Russian patriarch has said he is against Ukrainian independence. He should be banned from Ukraine and so should other Russian orthodox priests who promote treason against Ukraine.

[FormerLib]

So why should any nation respect the jurisdiction of the Russian church?

I told you not to embarrass yourself by showing your ignorance about the Orthodox Church, but you just had to make an ass of yourself, didn't you?

Stupid is as Chicago Tailgunner does.

[Tailgunner Joe]

If you are so smart then maybe you should explain why Russian Orthodox in Ukraine should not be treated the way Georgian Orthodox in Abkhazia are treated by their Russian and Chechen occupiers?

Of course you can't explain, because you're not smart at all and don't even know what you are talking about.

[FormerLib]

If you are so smart then maybe you should explain why Russian Orthodox in Ukraine should not be treated the way Georgian Orthodox in Abkhazia are treated by their Russian and Chechen occupiers?

Because Christians know that two wrongs do not make a right, Joe. If you knew anything about Christianity, you wouldn't ask such stupid questions.

Orthodox Christians don't judge people by the actions of their secular countrymen, Joe.

You are the one who keeps going on and on about the KGB roots of the modern Russian! Do you expect Christian actions from people YOU claim are modern-day KGB thugs?

Stop embarrassing yourself. Even fools should have a little pride. Leave with what is left of yours.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.

[Tailgunner Joe]

"The Georgian church officials complain that the Russian church interferes in Abkhazia by training and sending in priests loyal to Moscow. The Russian church officials published translations of the Gospels in Abkhazian, which drew protests from the Georgian Orthodox and Apostolic Church as a violation of Orthodox Church canon law, constituting a meddling in the internal affairs of another Orthodox church and annexation of Georgian Orthodox property in Abkhazia." - LINK

[Tailgunner Joe]

"The Russian Orthodox Church took upon itself an apostolic feat to preserve and develop the Orthodoxy in Abkhazia at the times of disaster." - Official Site of the Abkhazian Orthodox Eparchy

[Tailgunner Joe]

ABKHAZIA: "Of course" authorities won't defend Georgian monks and nuns - September 4, 2008 - Asked who had given him the right to pressure members of a different religious jurisdiction to submit to his authority, Fr Aplia responded angrily: "It's not your business. It's our territory." Abkhaz Deputy Foreign Minister Maxim Gvinjia backs the right of the Abkhaz Church to enforce its will on the monks and nuns. "Of course we won't defend their rights, given the context of current developments..."

[Tailgunner Joe]

Russian Patriarch Thanks Abkhaz ‘President’ - February 12, 2009 - Russia’s new Patriarch Kirill sent a letter to Abkhaz leader, Sergey Bagapsh, calling him “the President of Abkhazia.” In the letter the Russian Patriarch tells Bagapsh that the Russian Church would “remain committed to the course” of his predecessor, Alexy II, “related to further development of brotherly relations between the people of Russia and Abkhazia.” The letter, which was posted on the Russian patriarchate’s official website on February 11, was sent to thank the Abkhaz leader for congratulating Patriarch Kirill on his enthronement. Meanwhile, the South Ossetian Press and Information Committee reported on February 12, that a similar latter of gratitude was sent to breakaway South Ossetia’s leader, Eduard Kokoity.

[Kolokotronis]

LOL. Wikipedia shouldn’t be your source for Orthodox ecclesiology, TG. What is complained of in the article is not a violation of Orthodox polity or praxis.

[Kolokotronis]

Interesting link. It confirms that this is a schismatic group with a “made up” hierachy installed by the revolutionaries. No Orthodox Church has recognized the autonomy or autocephally of this group. Indeed, it appears they are guilty of the heresy of ethnophyletism and so are to be condemned.

[Kolokotronis]

TG, that the new Patriarch of Moscow sent a letter to the leader of the break away region to thank him for sending his best wishes on the MP’s enthronement isn’t at all remarkable. Its simply good manners.

The letter is telling in an ecclesiological sense in that +Kyrill says he remains committed to the course of his predecessor regarding relations between Russians and Abkhazians...which means no recognition for their schismatic church.

BTW,here’s a little Orthodox ecclesiology 101 for you. Were Moscow to unilaterally recognize the Abkhaz group as a sui juris church, it would likely result in a break in communion with ALL the other Orthodox churches which is the last thing the MP wants.

[Kolokotronis]

“”It’s not your business. It’s our territory.” Abkhaz Deputy Foreign Minister Maxim Gvinjia backs the right of the Abkhaz Church to enforce its will on the monks and nuns. “Of course we won’t defend their rights, given the context of current developments...”

This is what the heresy of ethnophyletism looks like. Its another reason why Orthodoxy won’t recognize these characters.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Sure they won't recognize them, just like Russia doesn't recognize Abkhazia as a part of Russia, even they they have just annexed it. They'll just send their Russian Orthodox priests into Georgian Orthodox jurisdiction to proselytize and steal the congregations of their “fellow” Orthodox in cooperation with heretical ethnic separatists who are ethnically cleansing Georgian monks. I don't need to listen to the bold-faced lies of the Russian Orthodox Church, all I need to do is look at what they're doing, the opposite of what they say, just like Russia's KGB leaders.

[Tailgunner Joe]

Will the “patriarch” show good manners to the President of Ukraine, I wonder? Will he recognize Ukraine’s indpendence as he has the independence of the heretics in Abkhazia he has praised and promised to further relations with?