What’s the Point of Creeds?

CERC ^ | 1988 | Peter Kreeft

[Kolokotronis]

"Strange that He revealed Himself in such 'anthropomorphic' terms."

He did? I'd have thought that scripture writers, especially those of the OT, used anthropomorphic terms to describe what they couldn't understand...unless of course the Latin Church has taken to teaching, a la Mohammedanism or some variants of Protestantism, that the scriptures are quite literally the "Word of God" rather than that Ο Λογος του Θεου is Christ. Sadly, given the most recent heresy spouting from some American bishops, that wouldn't surprise me too much.

"People do end up in Hell, though."

Indeed they do, though God doesn't send them there; they send themselves. Its a shame that the various ecclesiastical terror regimes which have arisen in the West felt and, to this day among some of them, feel that making God the source of damnation on account of divine wrath is good Christian theology. Its no wonder there are so many atheists in the West.

[MarkBsnr]

***O did you make that up in your own private “ecumenical” council of the church of one.

Well that’s turning into a popular condescension...***

You mean people are starting to realize where your church is coming from?

[MarkBsnr]

***The only “heretics” against the Trinity said that Jesus was a created being, or a demiurge. The Arians said this, the Muslims say this and the Mormons say this. Do you think any of those heretical groups are Christian or similar to your beliefs?
I can’t wait for iscool to respond to this one...

What??? If you knew your bibles, you’d know that I always quote from the only bible that has the correct verse in it...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.***

With the underscore that you have created on the ‘begotten’, are you saying that you have joined the LDS in saying that God the Father procreated Jesus upon a woman?

[kosta50]

2Ti 1:14...1Jn 3:24...1Jn 4:13

Blah, blah, blah...the Greek word used "to indwell" means to influence; it doesn't mean there is God living in side of you. Rest assured: you have not been hijacked by the Holy Spirit.

Your religion could not exist were it not for the scriptures...

That is a pretty ignorant statement given the fact that the Church existed before the New Testament was written. Your grasp of things seems to be in reverse arrangement.

But yet the scriptures are such a mystery to you guys

The Church would say that God is a mystery that no man can grasp. It is only natural that what is revealed in scriptures is no less of a mystery if not magic.

You're quick to point out that many veses don't mean what they say but then you're completely silent on what you think they do mean...

Why should I rewrite what the Church wrote for almost the last 2,000 years and can be found in any Catholic or Orthodox catechism? Do your own homework.

But if you insist, you may ask what I personally think and I will gladly tell you what and why.

[kosta50]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

So, you interpret "begotten" (monogenes) to mean that the Son is a creature, or as Paul would say, the "firstborn (prototokos) of every creature "(Col 1:15, KJV)?

[kosta50]

Its a shame that the various ecclesiastical terror regimes which have arisen in the West felt and, to this day among some of them, feel that making God the source of damnation on account of divine wrath is good Christian theology. Its no wonder there are so many atheists in the West.

There is definitely a tinge of masochism in it, don't you think? Wasn't it Anselm who came up with that idea?

[kosta50]

Mark to Iscool: With the underscore that you have created on the ‘begotten’, are you saying that you have joined the LDS in saying that God the Father procreated Jesus upon a woman?

Mark, you noticed the same thing (see #105). I hope this is not what the mainline Protestant community believes.

[Cronos]

Apparently you guys don't just condemn using the scripture 'alone'...You condemn using the scripture 'at all', unless you can squeeze something out of it that may (or may not) remotely bolster your theory on what God taught us...

We condemn individual, flawed, interpretation that misleads others. Case in point -- Arius interpreted scripture to understand that Christ was a created being, a lesser god, a demiurge. That was "sola scriptura", not, as The Apostolic Church believes, learning as a community in Christ.

And, if you read about the early heresies you would see the flaws that arise when we, normal mortals, try, as individuals, to interpret the enormity that is the Godhead.

Sola scriptura fails and that is so visible in every protestant split, sub-split and sub-sub-sub-sub-split.

We do NOT in any was condemn using "scripture" -- that is a slur against the Christian Church and you ought to take that back.

Do you have any proof to back your incorrect statement?

Finally, I asked you to differentiate between the soul and the spirit and the passage you gave likens "spirit" to the body, so your "trinity of man" falls to a duality of man.

The guy that wrote the original Catholic bible, Jerome,

you think that one man wrote the entire Bible?

[Cronos]

Your religion could not exist were it not for the scriptures, just as izlam could not exist without the Koran or the Mormans without Joe Smith's book...

Our religion (called Christianity) exists because of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), we do not exist because of scripture, God-given though it may be. We are not like Muslims who slave to a book, we only serve God.

The verse says soul and spirit, but where is the third aspect of your "trinity of man"? By spirit, the author of Hebrews indicates the body.

[Cronos]

You haven't answered my question:

you said And I find it comical that your religion will call someone a heretic for disagreeing with their version of their guess...

To which I replied: Kolokotronis (who's orthodox) and me (catholic) in our religion (which we call Christianity) say that the Trinity is co-eternal. The only "heretics" against the Trinity said that Jesus was a created being, or a demiurge. The Arians said this, the Muslims say this and the Mormons say this. Do you think any of those heretical groups are Christian or similar to your beliefs?

We condemned as heretics the Muslims, Mormons, Arians because their sola scriptura understanding of the Trinity was not orthodox. Do you count your beliefs in the Trinity to be similar to these? Do you consider that Jesus was a created being or a demiurge?

[Kolokotronis]

“Wasn’t it Anselm who came up with that idea?”

Insofar as appeasing a wrathful God by the bloody slaughter of His own Son as atonement, yup. But the idea that God is the source of damnation goes back to Blessed Augustine.

[Kolokotronis]

"Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

So, you interpret "begotten" (monogenes) to mean that the Son is a creature, or as Paul would say, the "firstborn (prototokos) of every creature "(Col 1:15, KJV)?"

Fair question, I. It deserves an answer. Words and concepts do matter in theology. Misconceptions, often arising from a sola scriptura mindset, are why we have the Creed in the first place and while the words in English are loose to say the least, in Greek they are very, very precise. For example, and a propos of what you wrote, the Creed says in Greek that Christ is "homoousios" to the Father, of the same ousia (or essence though that's a bad translation). What the Arians and some others were saying was that Christ was "homoiousios", of like ousia to the Father. One letter, iota, makes all the difference, I.

[Cronos]

Good point K, Iscool — this is why we disapprove of sola scriptura, of attempting to understand God as just an individual, not as a Church, a community of believers. Even Church Fathers like Augustine made mistakes — we are, after all, just mortals individually, but as the community of believers stretching back to the Apostles, our success rate improves.

[Petronski]

Apparently you guys don't just condemn using the scripture 'alone'...You condemn using the scripture 'at all'

I'm constantly amazed at the practice of writing "apparently" followed by an obvious falsehood. It seems some folks are seeing apparitions of falsehoods so powerfully vivid, they simply must be recounted here.

[Iscool]

With the underscore that you have created on the ‘begotten’, are you saying that you have joined the LDS in saying that God the Father procreated Jesus upon a woman?

Nope...I'm saying I'll bet your modern Catholic bible doesn't contain the word begotten in John 3:16...

[Iscool]

So, you interpret "begotten" (monogenes) to mean that the Son is a creature, or as Paul would say, the "firstborn (prototokos) of every creature "(Col 1:15, KJV)?

Begotten meas 'born'...It's not a tough as you make it out to be...

[Iscool]

Blah, blah, blah...the Greek word used "to indwell" means to influence; it doesn't mean there is God living in side of you. Rest assured: you have not been hijacked by the Holy Spirit.

All I can say is speak for yourself...And I'll take that as an admission that the Holy Spirit does NOT live within you...

You might want to switch to a more accurate Greek/English translation...The one you are using is deeply flawed...

So try out the actual verse...

2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

What does dwelleth in us mean in Greek???

Or how about this one...

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

What does abideth in us mean???

1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Hey, we even dwell in Jesus...What's that really mean??? We influence Jesus???

[Iscool]

We condemn individual, flawed, interpretation that misleads others. Case in point -- Arius interpreted scripture to understand that Christ was a created being, a lesser god, a demiurge. That was "sola scriptura", not, as The Apostolic Church believes, learning as a community in Christ.

No, that was not Sola Scripture...The scripture doesn't say that nor can it be interpreted to mean that...

That guy had the same problem many people do...And it's not that he didn't understand what the scriptures said, he just chose not to believe it...

We do NOT in any was condemn using "scripture" -- that is a slur against the Christian Church and you ought to take that back.

Do you have any proof to back your incorrect statement?

Sure, no problem...

Post 64 by Kosta
That's just Paul making up a new religion for the Greeks and Romans. Jesus Christ never said anything like that in the Gospels.

Oooh, the author of the Hebrews says so? Why do you believe him, and oridnary man? You don't even know who he is!

Proof enough???

Finally, I asked you to differentiate between the soul and the spirit and the passage you gave likens "spirit" to the body, so your "trinity of man" falls to a duality of man.

OK, I'll try againg...They are different because they are spelled differently...

BODY
σῶμα
sōma

Soma, the body...Flesh...

SOUL
ψυχή
psuchē

Like psyche...Intellect, mind, aura, etc...

SPIRIT
πνεῦμα
pneuma

Pneuma...Like pneumatics, air, wind...

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps the author could just as accurately have said, 'your whole spirit and spirit and body'??? Or 'your whole soul and soul and body'...

It's all in there...And it's not a matter of interpretation...It's a matter of (un)belief...

[Iscool]

I'm constantly amazed at the practice of writing "apparently" followed by an obvious falsehood. It seems some folks are seeing apparitions of falsehoods so powerfully vivid, they simply must be recounted here.

Thankyou for your normal contribution to an issue...

[kosta50]

And I'll take that as an admission that the Holy Spirit does NOT live within you...

You may imagine something "lives" inside of you, but the proof is lacking, so it all boils down to words, words and more words...and you know what they say about words

You might want to switch to a more accurate Greek/English translation...The one you are using is deeply flawed...

I don't think so. The word is used metaphorically, not literally.

What does dwelleth in us mean in Greek???

Depends in what context it is used, like everything else. Do you really think that "thank you from the bottom of my heart" means from the physical bottom of your heart? Ever heard of allegory or metaphor? perhaps you need to look them up.

1Jn 3:24...Hey, we even dwell in Jesus...What's that really mean??? We influence Jesus???

You dwell in Jesus and Jesus physically, literally dwells in you? Can you explain this? Please enlighten us as to how this works.

And, by the way, Jesus never said anything like that. It's Paul and "John" creating a new religion for the Greeks and the Romans. Find me in the Gospels where Jesus says such nonsense.

Perhaps you can also explain what Paul means in Romans 7:17 when he says "So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me." You mean to tell me, that the Holy Spirit shares the same "space" where sin abides?

And how can sin "abide" in anything? Sin is not a thing but what we do. Sin is not even a spirit. It is the consequence of our acts. Yet Paul says sin "abides" in you. You can only read this sensibly if you read it metaphorically; otherwise it's pure nonsense.

And how can you be a slave to sin if you are "hijacked" by the Holy Spirit, if you are "born again," if you "dwell" in Jesus? Get real! This is flowery language that was used to make the new religion attractive to Greeks and Romans. It "feels" good but taken literally it's gibberish.

And, when you quote dear Paul, don't forget that he said different things to different people in order to make them accept this new religion he created in order to save the Church, or maybe he didn't believe that either:

"just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved." [1 Cor 10:33]

He actually believed that he [sic] saves them by pleasing all [sic] men in all [sic] things! Whatever he believed is irrelevant; it;'s what he accomplished that counts which was to save the Church from certain extinction.