Posted on 06/08/2009 10:08:40 AM PDT by markomalley
I lived near Wichita, 1977-’83, and I was a member of the same church as Dennis Rader, Christ Lutheran, which was ALC, at that time. I went to his house, a few times, and he seemed normal, to me. He killed about 20 people, but Tiller killed thousands of babies.
In June 1990, I heard Sen. Simon give a campaign speech, in a Lutheran church, and he said that he was pro-life. He also said that the federal government should decrease welfare spending.
I think you're right. Still not a good thing, though. :-)
He wasn't. He was "pro-choice," but, like so many politicians, he could claim he was "personally" "pro-life," if it fit the audience he was speaking to.
Wikipedia has Simon as a social liberal, fiscal conservative. That seems to mesh with my memory of the man. There's nothing there about a stance on abortion, however.
Ironic that Tiller was killed, in Wichita, by a man named Roeder (which could be pronounced the same as “Rader”).
If Roeder's intentions were "justice" then he deserves the death penalty as seeking "justice" is not an excuse or a justification for taking another's life.
On the other hand, if his motivation was to prevent Tiller from committing more murders and all legal remedies to that end had been exhausted (and they had) then I believe he has a legal justification under the doctrine of "defense of others".
You are right. And I, for one, do not defend the vigilante killing of Tiller, nor do I delight in his death, which may have been (although only God can see the heart) in a state of impenitence and unbelief. His outward behavior did indicate impenitence, and that is what the church has to go on.
After reading over the comments on this thread, I'm not sure at all what you're referring to. We all know we will come to our final judgment, as will Tiller. Why is that an issue with you?
Precisely. To not discipline the congregant is to fail in your duty as clergy to call sinners to repent. If a man's soul is in peril, as Tiller's was, standing by idly simply compounds the sin. Our Lord confronted sinners directly and dutiful clergy MUST do the same.
A vigilante is one who "takes just law into his own hands" and not one who "acts despite unjust law."
It goes beyond his outward behavior, he knew EXACTLY what he was doing.
With Tiller arriving at the front gate to his property, a counselor finished her plea, "You can't go to heaven unrepentant, George; you are going to hell." The abortionist George Tiller instantly quipped, "Abortion is worth going to hell for."
I agree that pastors should ask sinners to repent. Have you heard any pastors preach a sermon against homosexuality, knowing that at least one gay person was listening? I haven’t heard of that.
I’ve not heard a sermon ‘against homosexuality’ per se, however our pastor has made remarks in sermons about the evil of sin, using homosexuality as example. Whether there were homosexuals in the congregation I can’t speak to.
By his “outward behavior,” I mean his words and his works, so I think I’m saying the same thing you are.
Thanks for clarifying, I just think it needs to be known that Tiller acknowledged his ongoing sin AND the eternal damnation that accompanied it.
The last church we attended was Lutheran (LCMS). When I moved I looked for another ‘conservative’ Lutheran churches, and while there is one or two LCMS parishes their congregation(s) are quite small — they even share a pastor.
On the other hand, there are two other Lutheran Churches, and I think they are both ELCA. One has a large school.
Now, I don’t know if it’s common practice in ELCA churches, but the ELCA churches here only celebrate communion twice a month on something like the first and third Sundays. For some reason that immediately put me off (knowing they were mighty liberal in doctrine, IMO would’ve been enough), but it struck me as strange that something so central to Sunday services were curtailed...
At any rate, it is bad that they do not mention his excommunication. Those not associated with the Lutheran Church and all of its “divisions” could definitely be led to believe that Lutherans are pro-choice, and I know that was DEFINITELY not the case in our old church (LCMS).
Which dovetails into something I have posted in other places. When free Christian men (the universal "men") strive for JUSTICE over Liberty, both are lost.
Seems that is what our government is doing, seeking "justice" to commit sins (covetousness; spreading the wealth) while thinking that "liberty" is not affected.
Liberty should be retained, even at the cost of justice as the latter flows from the former.
Soon as I read it, I thought of you. No coincidence, I see. Keep the faith, brother.
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