Pray for the Canonization of Ven Cardinal John Henry Newman
Posted on 06/08/2009 7:52:15 PM PDT by bronxville
Let me speak from the heart. I was an Anglican for fifteen years: for most of that time I was an Anglican in England, first a theological student, then a priest. My visit this weekend to Church of the Atonement, San Antonio, made me feel nostalgic for those days, and for the great traditions of the Anglican Church.
When I go on to the Anglo-Catholic blogs like Anglican Wanderings and others I feel even more nostalgia for the Anglican Church and all its many treasures. Not only do I feel nostalgia for the fine buildings, the exquisite choral tradition, the hearty and glorious hymns and the quaint customs. I also feel nostalgia for the people. It is easy for me to poke fun at the typical Anglican liberal with his goofy views and gooey theology. However, I realize that there are many Anglicans spread now throughout Anglicanism and the various Anglican breakaway groups who only wish to remain faithful to 'Mere Christianity' and wish to preserve the historic Christian faith.
In visiting Church of the Atonement, I was saddened at how few Anglicans have taken advantage of the Vatican's offer within the Pastoral Provision. The Catholic Church has said, "Have your own liturgy, have your own buildings, have married priests." Only a handful of Anglican clergy and people (it seems) have even considered the possibility. What does this say about the Anglican's goodwill and ecumenical intent?
I realize the Anglican Use is not allowed in England, but would many more Anglicans really have taken advantage of it if it were? I doubt it. I don't know what has kept more Anglicans from responding positively here in the United States. Perhaps it is what would have to be sacrificed to make it go. Fr Phillips went with a wife and three young children across the country and was offered a mere $1,000.00 a month. On this he was to support his family, start a church and minister full time. He went to minister to just 18 people at first.
This is what would be required: to step out in faith and do something new. To step out and be prepared to risk all, to work hard, to be misunderstood and to trust God totally. That sort of heroic faith is hard to come by.
Nevertheless, whether they come and pioneer the Anglican Use as Fr Phillips has done, and as has been done in a handful of other places in the US, or whether they come, leaving all to join the Catholic Church with no conditions--as Fr Jeffrey Steel has done this weekend--these faithful men and their courageous wives and families must be welcomed with open arms, with generous hearts and with willing response of faith.
The convert clergy bring great gifts to the Catholic Church, but they also receive much. I can say from my own experience that even the smallest step of faith yields a rich harvest over time.
What is the greatest thing any non-Catholic can do to further Church unity? The answer is simple: become a Catholic. As they bring their gifts, their faith, their enthusiasm and their love for Christ and his Church they will bring others and the cascade of graces will continue to overflow--blessing them, their families, their church and the whole Church of Christ.
This cascade of blessings will also come with a whole raft of difficulties, sacrifices and agonies, but these also are only a part of the greater blessings which are in store. For those who faithfully take the step the blessings will be abundant and will come in more mysterious and moving ways than you can yet imagine.
My encouragement to Jeffrey and any others who may be paying attention is this: Launch out into the deep. The Savior is calling you to do some serious wave walking. Step out of the boat. He will not fail you, and as you step out, remember that it was Peter who did this before you and it is he that you choose to follow all the way home.
Pray for the Canonization of Ven Cardinal John Henry Newman
Great traditions of the Anglican church? Like providing chaplains to roving bands of Protestants murdering the Irish? How about looting monastaries to provide funds for a drunken carousing philandering excuse for a King?
The Anglican church was invented to excuse adultery, murder, and theft. Its only competion in that regard is Islam.
I welcome them into the Catholic Church, and hope they find a strong spiritual home.
Keep in mind that those who are most inclined to take such a step are those who took their ordination vows most seriously. To take the "Anglican Use" option is to utterly renounce those vows and submit to ordination anew.
We should not wonder too much at why so few have taken that path, but rejoice in those who have, as you clearly do.
Shame on you for posting such spite in response to a thread so clearly inspired by charity.
Do you think such bile helps build the Kingdom of God?
Pray espccially hard, now that it appears to be so close.
Which G-d?
Only a handful of Anglican clergy and people (it seems) have even considered the possibility.
Because it’s a scam, a bait and switch.
During the Albisingian Crusade, a local lord was sent off to kill heretics. He asked ‘How will I know the heretics?’
His Catholic Chaplin is reported to have answered “Neco es omnes, Dios se agnocet.”
Kill them all. G-d knows his own.
In like manner, the purpose of the Catholic Church was to supplement Constantine’s One Emperor and one Empire with One G-d. Still, he managed to water that down with the doctrine of the Trinity. As Constantine sat as head of the Council of Nicea, he was the fulfillment of scripture- As head of the Roman Government, head of the Roman Army, head of the new Roman religion, he was perfect three ways. 6 was thought to be a perfect number (sum and product of factors equals the number). 666.
I believe he was talking about his youth, nostalgia, and the memory of the Anglican prayers/hymns. I can understand the longing in his heart.
The Anglicans aka Church of Ireland weren’t so bad. Many of the Irish rebels were Church of Ireland. Now the Scottish Presbyterians, they were a whole other animal altogether. What religion was Cromwell? Now there was a real animal.
My mother (RIP) died when I was very young. One of my neighbors from across the way, an Anglican/Church of Ireland spinster, visited her wake, she brought a single Lily and laid it on my mothers bed and left. I will never, ever forget Miss Elliott. I lived and grew up in N. Ireland during the time of the troubles. We were all segregated, indeed still are to a certain extent in some areas, but this lady crossed the line, the only Protestant to do so, and paid my mother a beautiful tribute. You never know who you touch with just a little gesture of human kindness. I still see her face, and gentle smile, as if it was yesterday. God bless her and may she RIP.
“As head of the Roman Government, head of the Roman Army, head of the new Roman religion, he was perfect three ways. 6 was thought to be a perfect number (sum and product of factors equals the number). 666.”
What a pile of gobbledygook. lol
“Only a handful of Anglican clergy and people (it seems) have even considered the possibility.
Because it’s a scam, a bait and switch.”
Can you please clarify what you mean?
In like manner, the purpose of the Catholic Church was to supplement Constantine's One Emperor and one Empire with One G-d.
The purpose of the Catholic church was, and is, the salvation of the world.
head of the new Roman religion
He wasn't "head of the new Roman religion" because there was no "new Roman religion" at the time of Nicaea. Catholic Christianity wouldn't become the state religion of Rome for another 60 years.
And even after that, the emperors weren't at the head of the church, at least not in the west.
What source do you have for your claims? What religious community or sect do you claim as your own?
Forgive me if this seems rude, but that’s the biggest pile of garbage I’ve ever read here on Free Republic.
Have a nice day.
You responded much better than I did. I tend to rudeness when I read such outrageous lies about the Church. I’m already regretting my post.
This is incorrect information....and so wrong on many levels.
I am a Catholic, but the destruction of the monasteries was carried out by the interests of the English state and the aristocracy not the Anglican clergy (whom after all wouldn’t have minded coming into possession of these properties). The King shared the loot with his allies in the nobility.
“And even after that, the emperors weren’t at the head of the church, at least not in the west.”
Neither in the East, nor, for that matter, did patriarchs sit at the head of empires!
“Kill them all. G-d knows his own.”
Very similar to the motto of some units of the UDF - “Kill them all let God sort them out”
Seems like there are arseh#les in every group eh?
Mel
You wrote:
“During the Albisingian Crusade, a local lord was sent off to kill heretics. He asked ‘How will I know the heretics?’
His Catholic Chaplin is reported to have answered “Neco es omnes, Dios se agnocet.””
Wikipedia has the story:
According to the Cistercian writer Caesar of Heisterbach, one of the leaders of the Crusader army, the Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, when asked by a Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics, answered: “Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius” – “Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his”. On the other hand, the legate’s own statement, in a letter to the Pope in August 1209 (col.139), states:
while discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low degree and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders froom their leaders. To our amazement, crying “to arms, to arms!”, within the space of two or three hours they crossed the dotches and the walls and Béziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as Divine vengeance miraculously...
The problem, of course, is that there is no evidence whatsoever other than Caesar of Heisterbach’s late story that the papal legate actually made the remark and we don’t know whence Caesar of Heisterbach got his information. The story may be made up in other words.
“In like manner, the purpose of the Catholic Church was to supplement Constantine’s One Emperor and one Empire with One G-d.”
That makes no sense according to what we actually know about history. Constantine, after all, championed Arianism AFTER the Council of Nicaea precisely because he could not control the Catholic Church.
“Still, he managed to water that down with the doctrine of the Trinity. As Constantine sat as head of the Council of Nicea, he was the fulfillment of scripture- As head of the Roman Government, head of the Roman Army, head of the new Roman religion, he was perfect three ways.”
The Trinity in no way waters down Christianity’s monotheism - it actually strengthens and defines it. Also, Constantine was not the head of the council. Nor was he the head of a new Roman religion. He was, in fact, the head of the OLD pagan Roman religion as pontifex maximus. This was more than a century before another emperor granted that title to the pope as a sign of the eclipsing of the old pagan world.
“6 was thought to be a perfect number (sum and product of factors equals the number). 666.”
Utter nonsense. Six was not thought to be a perfect number by Christians. Whoever else might have thought that is irrelevant.
It's called "the Great Sacralige." Within 150 years, the families that had laid impious hands on things consecrated to God were all extinct. In the shorter run, thousands of destitute and handicapped people were brutally deprived of their care.
donmaker:
As Catholics, I think we need to get past the reformation wars of the 16th and 17th century and realize that the Treaty of Westphalia (1644-1648) ended those wars. That entire period is a sad on many levels and we need to stop extrapolating the sins of that period to individuals who still hapen to be in those Protestant confessions.It has always been sad, to me at least, that England left communion with Rome as I have always admired the English {I am of Italian ancestry). While I think the split of Christendom was the foundation for the rise of milatant nationalism, communism, and secularism, we Catholics need to welcome back those Anglicans who come back to ROme with open arms as members of the family who have come home.
Regards
“As head of the Roman Government, head of the Roman Army, head of the new Roman religion, he was perfect three ways. 6 was thought to be a perfect number (sum and product of factors equals the number). 666.”
My goodness. Do you realize how hard you are working to make that fit? I imagine I could make the letters donmeaker equal 666 if I put my mind to it and applied your “logic.” Why not take some of that energy and study what the Catholic Church really teaches? I suggest books by Kreeft or Hahn; they examine Catholicism from a scriptural Protestant perspective.
As my earlier post said, there are bad apples in any human institution, but the Church survives, as Jesus said it would.
The Catholic Church teaches obedience rather than independence. Faith rather than virtue. A faithful murderer has a place in heaven. A unbelieving doctor doesn’t.
Welcome to your religion.
So you assert that no Christians knew simple maths? Condemned from your own words.
And who became the Anglican clergy? Who sucked up to the king so much that they committed blasphemy and accepted excommunication? Who violated the papal interdict? Did they do it out of faith or cupidity? Or do you pretend that the anglican clergy fell from the sky?
Actually Pontifex Maximus was head of all religions in Rome. They were competing to some extent, and he headed a college of priests who set the rules on festivals and permited modes of worship.
“The Catholic Church teaches obedience rather than independence. Faith rather than virtue. A faithful murderer has a place in heaven. A unbelieving doctor doesn’t.”
If your objection is to the concept of Trinity: Christ Himself called God his Father, called Himself the Son, and promised the Apostles that a third entity would come and enlighten them. Christ’s words confirm the Trinity.
If your objection is obedience: scripture repeatedly stresses Christ’s obedience to His Father’s will. The Church stresses obedience to God and His Word above all. What’s your objection to dependence on God?
If your objection is who gets into heaven: only God knows that. Christ told a thief on the cross that he’d be with him in heaven. He loved Peter, and Mary Magdalen, and the Sons of Thunder, with all their weaknesses and flaws.
Donmeaker, your post sounds as though you have been badly hurt at some point by a member of the Catholic Church. Please don’t leave it there. Before you live a lifetime of misunderstanding and animosity, I invite you to do a real study of what the Church really teaches and believes. Start with books by Scott Hahn. If nothing else, you can be healed of your hurt if you really understand what the Church, not one of her “sons of thunder” might have said to you. No one is beyond God’s love and no one knows who God accepts into heaven. God knows every aspect of our hearts and minds and He is just.
ROFL..................
Pretty silly. The references to the Trinity in the New Testament are perfectly clear. It was hardly a Constantinian invention.
Also, once you know where to look for, typological references to the Trinity can be found in the Old Testament as early as the first verses of Genesis.
Actually, I don't have a dog in this fight. Liturgical churches have a nasty habit of confusing their denominational structures with God. Reformed Christians have their own problems, of course. The Anglicans would argue that they had an independent streak long before the wicked King catalyzed a final break. The Catholics argue that God only has their permission to speak through Rome.
“At least not in theory. Eastern emperors did make and break patriarchs with alarming regularity based on the ecclesiastical policy they wanted in force.”
As occurred in reverse in the West, where Popes seem to have succeeded quite well in seeing to it their own secular/political/dynastic interests were promoted by emperors, kings, dukes and other such folk. Of course it wasn’t exactly the same. The patriarchs didn’t don armor and ride out at the head of an army to conquer vexatious monarchs.
You really don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about, do you?
"Faith rather than virtue" ... where on earth are you getting that from? That seems closer to what the Reformers taught than anything you'll find in Catholicism.
Welcome to your religion.
That's not my religion. It may be some strange caricature of my religion that you've invented as your own personal bogeyman.
Surely, you jest...
You wrote:
“So you assert that no Christians knew simple maths? Condemned from your own words.”
I have no idea what you’re referring too, but I’m not surprised your meaning is obscure.
You wrote:
“Actually Pontifex Maximus was head of all religions in Rome.”
Incorrect. The pagan PM, for instance, was not the head of Christianity, Judaism or probably even the pagan Mithras cult for that matter.
They were competing to some extent, and he headed a college of priests who set the rules on festivals and permited modes of worship.
Yes, it is correct. That is why Constantine could act as head of the council of Nicea. He was also in charge of Judaism, in that he could have banned it, as the worship of Isis was eventually banned.
You wrote:
“Yes, it is correct.”
No, actually it isn’t.
“That is why Constantine could act as head of the council of Nicea.”
He didn’t act as head of the council nor did any of his contemporaries say that he did.
“He was also in charge of Judaism, in that he could have banned it, as the worship of Isis was eventually banned.”
No. Banning something does not make you the head of that thing. Banning the NRA would not make you president of the NRA. Dissolving the kingdom of Poland did not make anyone the king of Poland. Prohibition did not make anyone in Congress the CEO of Budweiser.
It amazes what illogic anti-Catholics fall into.
I am not anti catholic. I am anti christian.
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