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CALVIN 500
website ^

Posted on 06/09/2009 11:53:42 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg

John Calvin was a theologian, pastor, biblical exegete, and tireless apologist for Reformed Christianity, and ranks among the most important thinkers in church history. His theological works, biblical commentaries, tracts, treatises, sermons, and letters helped establish the Reformation as a legitimate and thriving religious movement throughout Europe. No theologian has been as acclaimed or assailed as much as Calvin...


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: anniversary; calvin; christendom; johncalvin
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I don't know if this has been posted before, but it looks like a great site from which we can pull other threads. Let us all join in the celebration of the 500th anniversary of his birth. God is glorified by His saints.
1 posted on 06/09/2009 11:53:42 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
Ping to what looks to be a terrific website --

CALVIN 500

2 posted on 06/09/2009 11:57:46 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thanx for the site.

Amazing << Hear this. Feel this, and tell me that this isn't music.

Oh, dear...


3 posted on 06/09/2009 12:04:17 PM PDT by rdb3 (The mouth is the exhaust pipe of the heart.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thanks for the ping!


4 posted on 06/09/2009 12:07:40 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

This year is also the 400th anniversary of the passing of Jacobus Arminius, the Dutch Reformed Theologian and Pastor who, two generations after Reformed Calvinism was developed, brought a Biblical corrective over some of the more extreme concepts of the system.

Arminius reintroduced the balanced Biblical concepts of free moral agency, moral responsibility, the general atonement (Christ died for all), and yet retained the Biblical and historic Christian principles of Total Depravity and Salvation by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone.

Both of these men should be recognized as great workers for the Kingdom and contributors to Protestant Theology.


5 posted on 06/09/2009 12:14:01 PM PDT by patriot preacher (To be a good American Citizen and a Christian IS NOT a contradiction. (www.mygration.blogspot.com))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; All

good afternoon sister,
recieved a 10 on quiz.
next question:what brother shares john calvin’s birthdate?
hint:july 10 th.

EXURGE CALVINISTI,ET JUDICA,CAUSAM,TUAM!


6 posted on 06/09/2009 12:31:04 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02 ("SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE")
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To: patriot preacher; Dr. Eckleburg
Arminius reintroduced the balanced Biblical concepts of free moral agency, moral responsibility, the general atonement (Christ died for all), and yet retained the Biblical and historic Christian principles of Total Depravity and Salvation by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone.

Both of these men should be recognized as great workers for the Kingdom and contributors to Protestant Theology.

Besides Arminius' theological beliefs concerning predestination and election, Arminius was also known to be anti-Trinitarian - "the question of the Son's aseity was one of the initial points of conflict between Arminius and the Reformed" - see also here, and here. According to Arminius' writings, Christ's deity was only given to Him by the Father (ie only God the Father possesses deity by nature). It can be concluded that Arminius' gospel included a very non-trinitarian Christology.

Do you believe that anti-trinitarianism should be included in "Protestant Theology"? If you don't agree with Arminius' Christology, would you agree that such a belief is symptomatic of larger problems with one's overall theology?

7 posted on 06/09/2009 12:38:20 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

The Calvin 500 sounds to me like my grandson Calvin running around before bed :>)


8 posted on 06/09/2009 12:51:25 PM PDT by irishtenor (Beer. God's way of making sure the Irish don't take over the world.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Mr. Murphy — Calvinist’s have spread this fable forever. It’s not true. Please, give millions of your brothers and sisters in Christ a little respect.


9 posted on 06/09/2009 1:09:28 PM PDT by patriot preacher (To be a good American Citizen and a Christian IS NOT a contradiction. (www.mygration.blogspot.com))
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To: Alex Murphy

By the way, your links lead to articles that have absolutely nothing to do with Arminius or his views...? Augustine, the New Republic, etc., but NOTHING about Arminius. Did you expect folks to just buy your words because you are a Calvinist?


10 posted on 06/09/2009 1:13:19 PM PDT by patriot preacher (To be a good American Citizen and a Christian IS NOT a contradiction. (www.mygration.blogspot.com))
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To: Alex Murphy; patriot preacher

Your claims musy be a lie since there was zero mention of such claims in the Canons of Dort. If Arminus had taught such things as you claim, the Synod of Dort would have pointed them out.


11 posted on 06/09/2009 1:13:29 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg

I though NASCAR was expanding.


12 posted on 06/09/2009 1:24:19 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

All I’ve got to say is I really appreciate that some Reformed fashion statements died out centuries ago.


13 posted on 06/09/2009 1:28:29 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: Lord_Calvinus

Holy car race, Batman!


14 posted on 06/09/2009 1:29:30 PM PDT by irishtenor (Beer. God's way of making sure the Irish don't take over the world.)
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To: Lord_Calvinus

There would be no point to a Calvin 500 stock car race, since the winner would be predestined to victory by God before all time.


15 posted on 06/09/2009 1:32:21 PM PDT by B-Chan
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Calvin Ping


16 posted on 06/09/2009 1:37:03 PM PDT by isaiah55version11_0 (For His Glory)
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To: B-Chan

I don’t care who wins a NASCAR race. Not part of Junior nation. Not a Gordon fan or whomever anyone likes. I watch for one reason and one reason only. And it don’t matter how many of those are predestined.


17 posted on 06/09/2009 1:39:36 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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To: rdb3

Garbage. They call themselves “Nuttin But Stringz” but there’s hip hop beats and some ghetto vocal intro at the beginning. Sounds like an overproduced CD by a couple of charlatans.

Go with Gorecki’s Symphony #3 instead, with Dawn Upshaw. That’s the real deal.


18 posted on 06/09/2009 1:52:37 PM PDT by library user
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To: library user
Garbage. They call themselves “Nuttin But Stringz” but there’s hip hop beats and some ghetto vocal intro at the beginning. Sounds like an overproduced CD by a couple of charlatans.

Thank you. I'll give your opinion all the consideration it merits.

Amazing << Hear this. Feel this, and tell me that this isn't music.

Oh, dear...


19 posted on 06/09/2009 1:58:25 PM PDT by rdb3 (The mouth is the exhaust pipe of the heart.)
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To: irishtenor
my grandson Calvin

Blissful. 8~)

"Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers." -- Proverbs 17:6

20 posted on 06/09/2009 6:31:04 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: B-Chan; Lord_Calvinus
There would be no point to a Calvin 500 stock car race, since the winner would be predestined to victory by God before all time.

The winner is predestined to victory by God.

Or else there is something spinning out of control in God's creation outside His perfect purpose.

And the winner is...whomever God determines that to be.

21 posted on 06/09/2009 6:39:07 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: patriot preacher
concepts of free moral agency, moral responsibility, the general atonement

And that's why Arminius was in league with those who wished to neuter the Reformation and return the church to Rome. Arminius was a solid reformer until he traveled to Rome and spent some time with the Jesuits. He returned and began preaching against the sovereighty of God and for the Roman concept of a "free moral agency."

Nothing much has changed these past five centuries regarding Rome's modus operandi. The counter Reformation never ended.

Read a great book, "Swarms of Locusts" by Michael Bunker. Things don't just happen. Arminius was used.


22 posted on 06/09/2009 7:01:14 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus

Should have pinged you to 22.


23 posted on 06/09/2009 7:01:58 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: rdb3

I played that music for some friends who loved it. And our sons agreed. It’s unique and beautiful.


24 posted on 06/09/2009 7:13:06 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yup, he’s 4 1/2 now. And, as he told his mother the other day... He already knows everything :>)


25 posted on 06/09/2009 7:22:01 PM PDT by irishtenor (Beer. God's way of making sure the Irish don't take over the world.)
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To: SeaHawkFan; patriot preacher; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus
A BRIEF LOOK AT JAMES ARMINIUS AND HIS DOCTRINE OF GOD'S PROVIDENCE
by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

Arminius denied the necessity of the fall. (This alone impinges him on his vies of the necessity of all other actions, including the Father’s determination to send the Son to die for the sins of the elect. Was the atonement, then, not necessary?) This is something that his statement on the issue plainly sets forth. In repudiating this, he denies that God is not providentially governing all things necessarily. Some of his verbiage in describing this in his letters and theological treatises seem orthodox. He will say that God had providence over the direction of sin, to the direction of sin that God wills, and the determining times when those sins occur (3:697). However, as is his usual demeanor, he will blatantly contradict himself, demonstrating his confusion of the issue and his weak systematic approach...

Here's another short essay...

ARMINIANISM AND THE ATONEMENT
by John Murray

Let it not be thought that the Arminian by his doctrine escapes limited atonement. The truth is that he professes a despicable doctrine of limited atonement. He professes an atonement that is tragically limited in its efficacy and power, an atonement that does not secure the salvation of any. He indeed eliminates from the atonement that which makes it supremely precious to the Christian heart. In B. B. Warfield’s words, ‘the substance of the atonement is evaporated, that it may be given a universal reference’. What we mean is, that unless we resort to the position of universal restoration for all mankind — a position against which the witness of Scripture is decisive — an interpretation of the atonement in universal terms must nullify its properly substitutive and redemptive character. We must take our choice between a limited extent and a limited efficacy, or rather between a limited atonement and an atonement without efficacy. It either infallibly saves the elect or it actually saves none...

26 posted on 06/09/2009 7:46:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: irishtenor

LOLOL. I remember being 21 and feeling somewhat disappointed because I had obviously figured everything out and not much was left to learn. LOLOL. At least a four-year-old has a good excuse for that kind of thinking. I was just a flat-out idiot. 8~)


27 posted on 06/09/2009 7:50:15 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: alpha-8-25-02
recieved a 10 on quiz.

Good work! You did better than me.

And Happy Birthday! Remind us again as the date nears. More joy to celebrate. 8~)

Hope you and Mrs. Alpha are doing well.

28 posted on 06/09/2009 7:52:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Nothing much has changed these past five centuries regarding Rome's modus operandi.

Everything bad here is the bad old Papists' fault. We don't grow no heretics here, 'cept the Papists' send 'em.

(It would be funny if it weren't so sad.)

29 posted on 06/09/2009 8:21:54 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Campion

Actually it’s not funny at all.


30 posted on 06/09/2009 8:27:21 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I remember that, as I was growing up, my dad got dumber and dumber, until I got to a point (about 23-24) where I found he was getting smarter :>)


31 posted on 06/09/2009 9:06:56 PM PDT by irishtenor (Beer. God's way of making sure the Irish don't take over the world.)
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To: SeaHawkFan; patriot preacher; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus; Dr. Eckleburg
A day late, but hopefully not a dollar short... I'll try to settle this argument.

Alex Murphy wrote: According to Arminius' writings, Christ's deity was only given to Him by the Father (ie only God the Father possesses deity by nature). It can be concluded that Arminius' gospel included a very non-trinitarian Christology.

patriot preacher replied: Mr. Murphy — Calvinist’s have spread this fable forever. It’s not true. Please, give millions of your brothers and sisters in Christ a little respect...
...By the way, your links lead to articles that have absolutely nothing to do with Arminius or his views...? Augustine, the New Republic, etc., but NOTHING about Arminius.


SeaHawkFan also replied to Alex: Your claims musy be a lie since there was zero mention of such claims in the Canons of Dort. If Arminus had taught such things as you claim, the Synod of Dort would have pointed them out.

Alex is, in fact, correct. Although his links confuse me, too, his facts are sound.

From the pen of Jacobus Arminius:
The Divinity of the Son of God
I shall probably be asked, "do you not acknowledge, that, to be the Son of God, and to be God, are two things entirely distinct from each other?" I reply, undoubtedly I subscribe to such distinction. But when those who make it proceed still further, and say, "since to be the Son of God signifies that he derives his essence from the Father, to be God in like manner signifies nothing less than that he has his essence from himself or from no one;" I deny this assertion, and declare, at the same time, that it is a great and manifest error, not only in sacred theology, but likewise in natural philosophy. For, these two things, to be the Son and to be God, are at perfect agreement with each other; but to derive his essence from the Father, and, at the same time, to derive it from no one, are evidently contradictor, and mutually destructive the one of the other.

But, to make this fallacy still more apparent, it must be observed, how equal in force and import are certain double ternary and parallel propositions, when standing in the following juxta-position:

God is from eternity, possessing the Divine Essence from eternity. The Father is from no one, having the Divine Essence from no one. The Son is from the Father, having the Divine Essence from the Father.

The word "God" therefore signifies, that He has the true Divine Essence; but the word "Son" signifies, that he has the Divine Essence from the Father.
On this account, he is correctly denominated both God and the Son of God. But since he cannot be styled the Father, he cannot possibly be said to have the Divine Essence from himself or from no one. Yet much labour is devoted to the purpose of excusing these expressions, by saying, "that when the son of God in reference to his being God is said to have his essence from that form of speech signifies nothing more, than that the Divine essence is not derived from any one." But if this be thought to be the most proper mode of action which should be adopted, there will be no depraved or erroneous sentiment which can be uttered that may not thus find a ready excuse. For though God and the divine Essence do not differ substantially, yet whatever may be predicated of the Divine Essence can by no means be equally predicated of God; because they are distinguished from each other in our mode of framing conceptions, according to which mode all forms of speech ought to be examined, since they are employed only with a design that through them we should receive correct impressions. This is very obvious from the following examples, in which we speak with perfect correctness when we say, "Deum mortuum esse," and "the Essence of God is communicated;" but very incorrectly when we say, "God is communicated." That man who understands the difference existing between concrete and abstract, about which there were such frequent disputes between us and the Lutherans will easily perceive what a number of absurdities will ensue, if explanations of this description be once tolerated in the Church of God. Therefore, in no way whatever can this phrase, "the Son of God is autotheos," ["God of himself," or "in his own right,"] be excused as a correct one, or as having been happily expressed. Nor can that be called a proper form of speech which says, "the Essence of God is common to three persons;" but it is improper, since the Divine Essence is declared to be communicated by one of them to another.
Sort of different than -
The Athanasian Creed
(1) Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; (2) Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. (3) And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; (4) Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. (5) For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit. (6) But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. (7) Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit. (8) The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. (9) The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. (10) The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. (11) And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. (12) As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. (13) So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; (14) And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. (15) So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; (16) And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. (17) So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; (18) And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord. (19) For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; (20) so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords. (21) The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. (22) The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. (23) The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. (24) So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. (25) And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another. (26) But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal. (27) So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. (28) He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

(29) Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. (30) For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. (31) God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world. (32) Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. (33) Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. (34) Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. (35) One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God. (36) One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person. (37) For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; (38) Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; (39) He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; (40) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. (41) At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; (42) And shall give account of their own works. (43) And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. (44) This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
- isn't it? The essence (pun intended) of Arminius' writing in not trinitarian, and reads like a TD Jakes attempt at calling Oneness Pentecostalism kind of sort of trinitarian.
32 posted on 06/10/2009 3:22:17 PM PDT by raynearhood ("Naysayers for Jesus" - Charter Member)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: raynearhood

Gentlemen:

It is not as if this debate is new — nor is it as if this debate is neatly divided between the [supposedly righteous] Calvinists and the [unalterably heretical] Arminians.

There is currently a big debate (and it will be more clear in forthcoming books about Jesus being “generated” from the Father; That is, He gets His personhood or essence from the Father. The Father gets His essence from no one. And the Spirit gets His essence from the Father and the Son. [CALVINIST] Millard Erickson’s new book on the Trinity addresses this issue, as does Thomas Oden.

Grudem, on the other hand, disagrees with this language. He sees that it is not necessary to talk about the Son being “begotten” or “generated” from the Father, as though Jesus “needs” something from Him in order to exist (which sounds too close to what Jehovah’s Witnesses claim).

And as a reminder, [CALVINIST] John MacArthur at one time did not subscribe to Jesus being God’s Son from all eternity; for the Father said, “Today have I begotten You.” Grudem says that the word “begotten” simply means “one and only / unique,” and not “birthed” (obviously). Many
Church History professors say that “begotten” as used in the early Church Fathers meant “to share in the divinity of the Father.” Yet in [CALVINIST] Erickson’s new book, he says that the fathers believed that the Son was “generated” from the Father, not “brought into existence,” but as
Jesus claimed, “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father” (John 6:57 NASB). Some say Jesus is claiming to have His “human” personhood, so to speak, from the Father.

Jesus, therefore, is the only begotten Son of God in the sense that Jesus is the only natural Son of God and the rest of us are the adopted sons and daughters. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through
him” (1John 4:9). Arminius, in understanding his context,
agreed with the Athanasian creed, which says Jesus proceeds from the father. That seems to be wholly orthodox. This was the point of Arminius — NOT anti-trinitarianism. Oh, and by the way, [CALVINIST] Bruce Ware holds to this same view.

This view, while I take issue with the wording of Arminius’ wording (which can be explained largely by understanding the CONTEXT) is still within the realm of orthodoxy and is shared by very many trinitarians (CALVINISTS Ware and Erickson among them).

Colossians says “He [Christ] is the image of the invisible
God [the Father]”, and tells us that it was God’s [the Father’s] “pleasure that all the fullness dwell in Him [Christ]”. Hebrews calls Christ the “radiance of His [the Father’s] glory and the exact representation of His nature.” John calls Christ the Word, which is also a natural way to understand an expression (though logos can mean more than that).

In summary, I think Arminius’ view, and the view of many
trinitarians, is one way to understand these passages and they can find theological support from these passages. Not everyone understands the Trinity in this manner (I don’t like the wording, certainly), but it is a common view — and to charge that it is anti-trinitarian and unorthodox would have to mean that you would indict Bruce Ware and Millard Erickson in the SAME WAY. Any of youe super Calvies wanna tackle that?

Patriot Preacher
______________

A day late, but hopefully not a dollar short... I’ll try to settle this argument.

Alex Murphy wrote: According to Arminius’ writings, Christ’s deity was only given to Him by the Father (ie only God the Father possesses deity by nature). It can be concluded that Arminius’ gospel included a very non-trinitarian Christology.

patriot preacher replied: Mr. Murphy — Calvinist’s have spread this fable forever. It’s not true. Please, give millions of your brothers and sisters in Christ a little respect...
...By the way, your links lead to articles that have absolutely nothing to do with Arminius or his views...? Augustine, the New Republic, etc., but NOTHING about Arminius.

SeaHawkFan also replied to Alex: Your claims musy be a lie since there was zero mention of such claims in the Canons of Dort. If Arminus had taught such things as you claim, the Synod of Dort would have pointed them out.

Alex is, in fact, correct. Although his links confuse me, too, his facts are sound.

From the pen of Jacobus Arminius:
The Divinity of the Son of God
I shall probably be asked, “do you not acknowledge, that, to be the Son of God, and to be God, are two things entirely distinct from each other?” I reply, undoubtedly I subscribe to such distinction. But when those who make it proceed still further, and say, “since to be the Son of God signifies that he derives his essence from the Father, to be God in like manner signifies nothing less than that he has his essence from himself or from no one;” I deny this assertion, and declare, at the same time, that it is a great and manifest error, not only in sacred theology, but likewise in natural philosophy. For, these two things, to be the Son and to be God, are at perfect agreement with each other; but to derive his essence from the Father, and, at the same time, to derive it from no one, are evidently contradictor, and mutually destructive the one of the other.

But, to make this fallacy still more apparent, it must be observed, how equal in force and import are certain double ternary and parallel propositions, when standing in the following juxta-position:

God is from eternity, possessing the Divine Essence from eternity. The Father is from no one, having the Divine Essence from no one. The Son is from the Father, having the Divine Essence from the Father.

The word “God” therefore signifies, that He has the true Divine Essence; but the word “Son” signifies, that he has the Divine Essence from the Father. On this account, he is correctly denominated both God and the Son of God. But since he cannot be styled the Father, he cannot possibly be said to have the Divine Essence from himself or from no one. Yet much labour is devoted to the purpose of excusing these expressions, by saying, “that when the son of God in reference to his being God is said to have his essence from that form of speech signifies nothing more, than that the Divine essence is not derived from any one.” But if this be thought to be the most proper mode of action which should be adopted, there will be no depraved or erroneous sentiment which can be uttered that may not thus find a ready excuse. For though God and the divine Essence do not differ substantially, yet whatever may be predicated of the Divine Essence can by no means be equally predicated of God; because they are distinguished from each other in our mode of framing conceptions, according to which mode all forms of speech ought to be examined, since they are employed only with a design that through them we should receive correct impressions. This is very obvious from the following examples, in which we speak with perfect correctness when we say, “Deum mortuum esse,” and “the Essence of God is communicated;” but very incorrectly when we say, “God is communicated.” That man who understands the difference existing between concrete and abstract, about which there were such frequent disputes between us and the Lutherans will easily perceive what a number of absurdities will ensue, if explanations of this description be once tolerated in the Church of God. Therefore, in no way whatever can this phrase, “the Son of God is autotheos,” [”God of himself,” or “in his own right,”] be excused as a correct one, or as having been happily expressed. Nor can that be called a proper form of speech which says, “the Essence of God is common to three persons;” but it is improper, since the Divine Essence is declared to be communicated by one of them to another.
Sort of different than -
The Athanasian Creed
(1) Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; (2) Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. (3) And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; (4) Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. (5) For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit. (6) But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. (7) Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit. (8) The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. (9) The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. (10) The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. (11) And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. (12) As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. (13) So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; (14) And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. (15) So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; (16) And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. (17) So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; (18) And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord. (19) For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; (20) so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords. (21) The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. (22) The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. (23) The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. (24) So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. (25) And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another. (26) But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal. (27) So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. (28) He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

(29) Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. (30) For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. (31) God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world. (32) Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. (33) Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. (34) Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. (35) One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God. (36) One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person. (37) For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; (38) Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; (39) He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; (40) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. (41) At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; (42) And shall give account of their own works. (43) And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. (44) This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
- isn’t it? The essence (pun intended) of Arminius’ writing in not trinitarian, and reads like a TD Jakes attempt at calling Oneness Pentecostalism kind of sort of trinitarian.


36 posted on 06/11/2009 7:30:54 AM PDT by patriot preacher (To be a good American Citizen and a Christian IS NOT a contradiction. (www.mygration.blogspot.com))
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: patriot preacher

Jack Chick is not allowed at all on the Religion Forum.


38 posted on 06/11/2009 7:36:17 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: patriot preacher; Dr. Eckleburg
I bet you read the “Alberto” comics by J*** T. C**** when you were a kid, didn’t you?

Irving's Law has been invoked. Dr Eckleburg wins the round by default.

39 posted on 06/11/2009 7:39:14 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

I bet you read the “Alberto” comics by J*** T. C**** when you were a kid, didn’t you?

Irving’s Law has been invoked. Dr Eckleburg wins the round by default.

_______________

LOL. As I was unaware of Irving’s Law, I will concede that point due to ignorance. I will NOT, however, cede the debate as a whole to someone who makes a spurious charge, and then hides BEHIND said “law” in order to censor counter-arguments.

:-)


40 posted on 06/11/2009 8:44:52 AM PDT by patriot preacher (To be a good American Citizen and a Christian IS NOT a contradiction. (www.mygration.blogspot.com))
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To: patriot preacher
No one filed an abuse report, I pull references to banned materials whenever I see them.
41 posted on 06/11/2009 9:26:54 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: patriot preacher; Alex Murphy
I don't know to what comics you're referring. I don't read comics. I read Scripture.

You should try it.

42 posted on 06/11/2009 11:34:07 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose))
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To: raynearhood; SeaHawkFan; patriot preacher; Alex Murphy; Lord_Calvinus; Dr. Eckleburg

IIRC Arminius also had some strange views regarding the omnipresence of God, which would have had us stepping on God every time we take a step.

Looks like there has been a crash in turn 3 by the looks of the carnage at the CALVIN 500.


43 posted on 06/11/2009 12:41:57 PM PDT by Lord_Calvinus
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Comment #44 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Eckleburg

I don’t know to what comics you’re referring. I don’t read comics. I read Scripture. You should try it.

________

Well now, that’s...snooty. Doc, a terminal degree doesn’t mean you have the right to presume those who disagree with you are stupid. As you don’t KNOW me, I’ll chalk up your assumptions about my knowledge, study and reading of Scripture (and, might I add Church History) to that fact. I really do enjoy debate and discussion of such things with Brothers in Christ. Do I qualify Doc?


45 posted on 06/11/2009 9:00:44 PM PDT by patriot preacher (To be a good American Citizen and a Christian IS NOT a contradiction. (www.mygration.blogspot.com))
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To: raynearhood; SeaHawkFan

Thank you, Ray. Seahawkfan was wondering if Calvinists actually read the words of Arminius. Apparently we do.


46 posted on 06/11/2009 9:01:57 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose))
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To: patriot preacher; Lord_Calvinus; Alex Murphy; raynearhood; HarleyD
Well now, that’s...snooty. Doc, a terminal degree doesn’t mean you have the right to presume those who disagree with you are stupid.

"Snooty" to say I don't read comics. lol. Sorry. When my sons gave up Spiderman and Wolverine, so did I.

And you're mistaken. I haven't presumed anything about your stupidity.

47 posted on 06/11/2009 9:10:20 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose))
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To: Religion Moderator

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Jack Chick?


48 posted on 06/11/2009 10:14:26 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: SeaHawkFan
You can Google for "Jack Chick" to get more details but basically he has developed and distributed comic books for years to promote his particular religious beliefs and to criticize others. His work is not allowed on this forum because it mongers hatred by blaming Catholicism for Communism, the Holocaust, persecution of Jews and the existence of other beliefs he rejects.

Using his name to slur another poster is also not allowed.

49 posted on 06/11/2009 10:31:59 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you for that info. Pretty sick guy if you ask me.


50 posted on 06/12/2009 7:21:13 AM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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