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The Catholicization of the Protestant Church
crosswalk.com ^ | June 11, 2009 | Peter Beck

Posted on 06/12/2009 5:58:20 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

In just a few days I’m going to be walking in the footsteps of Martin Luther. I’ll explore the halls of the church in Zurich. I’ll be in Geneva when the Protestant world celebrates the 500th anniversary of Calvin’s death. And, I’m afraid the Reformers would hardly recognize the Protestant church they struggled to birth.

In fact, I think Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin might think most Protestant churches are really just inconsistent Catholic churches. Five hundred years after these men and others risked their life to bring reform to the church and the Bible to the people, we’ve not only forgotten the lessons learned, we’ve surrendered the gains gotten.

Consider just a few of the ways in which the modern Protestant church resembles the Catholic Church of the 16th century:

Our pastors act like priests. Oh, it’s not that they’ve usurped the priesthood of all believers. We’ve given it to them wholesale. If we have a biblical question, we don’t struggle to find the answer. We twitter the pastor. He’s the spiritual expert. If we need prayer, we don’t call the deacons. We hold out for the pastor because we think there’s some magic left in his words. Last, and certainly the worst, the public exposure of the raucous sexual sins of so many pastors would surely remind Luther of what he saw in Rome during his infamous visit to the so-called Holy City.

Our people have given up the Bible. Sure, we all have plenty. Some of us have handfuls of Bibles at home in every translation imaginable. We have Luther and others of that generation to thank for that great blessing. Yet, most of us don’t actually read our Bibles. Statistics suggest that only a woefully small segment of the evangelical world reads the Bible with any regularity at all. Instead, we let the experts tell us what it says (see above). And to think, Wycliffe and others were willing to die so we could ignore the Bible in our own language.

Our churches are full of people who are not Christians. In the days of the Reformation, the Catholic Church was full of nominal Catholics, those who rarely darkened the church doors but who assumed their salvation was secure because of that loose association. Protestants today have confused church membership with salvation as well.

Compare your church rolls with active attendance and see how many “members” never come to church. Now go share the Gospel with them and see how many say, “I’m okay. I’m a member of such and such church.” Membership, not active faith, has become the basis of their assurance. That sounds an awful lot like what Luther confronted.

A group of Catholic and evangelical scholars and leaders got together to seek common ground between the two movements in the 1990s. Surprisingly, they found what they believed were points of commonality and issued a lengthy statement detailing their finds. The document, referred to as Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT), was lambasted by evangelicals and Catholics alike. In the end, their desire for rapprochement was met with antipathy and suspicion.

Ironically, ECT failed, I’m afraid, because they looked at the written theology of the church rather than its practiced theology. We say we believe one thing but all too often our actions belie another set of beliefs. If you look closely, you’ll find that many Protestants are far more Catholic than they’re willing to admit.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: bible; catholiccult; catholicism; cult; protestantism; reformation
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To: vladimir998
Either Luther was a liar, as you suggest, or the demands upon Luther made by Leo in the Exsurge Dominewere impossible for a Christian to accept.

My personal favorite of Leo's demands was #33, that Luther repudiate his statement: "That heretics be burned is against the Spirit". Luther could have chosen to have continued in his fealty to Leo and publicly agreed that the Pope was doing God's work when he ordered heretics to be burned or he could have taken a stand for righteousness. He chose the latter.

Of course, Leo's threat to Luther was that, unless he recanted, the princes of the church could "...proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notorious and suspect and, in fact, is a true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures". Luther's reaction to this bizarre papal bull was to treat it with the same dignity and respect with which Leo ordered Jonathan Eck to treat the writings of Luther; that is, to burn it.

41 posted on 06/12/2009 11:21:48 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky

You wrote;

“Either Luther was a liar, as you suggest,...”

No, Luther was a liar in any case. Luther simply struggled to tell the truth.

“Luther could have chosen to have continued in his fealty to Leo and publicly agreed that the Pope was doing God’s work when he ordered heretics to be burned or he could have taken a stand for righteousness. He chose the latter.”

No, he didn’t. 1) How many heretics were burned at Leo’s orders? How many? 2) Luther’s promise of fealty to the pope was complete. The idea that he later had moral qualms on an issue is silly. He had to know the pope would disagree with his heretical doctrines.

“Of course, Leo’s threat to Luther was that, unless he recanted, the princes of the church could “...proceed against him to his condemnation and damnation as one whose faith is notorious and suspect and, in fact, is a true heretic with the full severity of each and all of the above penalties and censures”. Luther’s reaction to this bizarre papal bull was to treat it with the same dignity and respect with which Leo ordered Jonathan Eck to treat the writings of Luther; that is, to burn it.”

The papal bull was not bizarre in the least. What is bizarre is that Luther pretended that his heresy would be accepted by the Church. Also, while Eck had every right and reason to publicly burn the works of a notorious heretic whose teaching was pulling apart the fabric of society, Luther burned copies of canon law to show he simply would ignore the laws of the Church he formerly claimed loyalty too. Luther was a revolutionary. He wa smore than happy to overthrow the law, change the Bible, and destroy those who followed him or opposed him if it further his cause or saved his neck.


42 posted on 06/12/2009 11:41:06 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998

OK, you think a dispute over the Pope’s authority to have heretics burned at the stake is insignificant. Leo and Luther disagreed with you.


43 posted on 06/12/2009 11:48:14 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky

By the way, although Luther may have been against the burning of heretics he certainly wasn’t against the mass killing of rebellious peasants (whom he had inspired to rebel in the first place) and he certainly wasn’t against repressing those who disagreed with him (e.g. Karlstadt)


44 posted on 06/12/2009 11:50:40 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Mr. Lucky

You wrote:

“OK, you think a dispute over the Pope’s authority to have heretics burned at the stake is insignificant. Leo and Luther disagreed with you.”

I never said anything about it being insignificant. Why don’t you try again?


45 posted on 06/12/2009 11:53:16 AM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Theo
Just about everything you wrote is wrong, a simplistic caricature of the Church that our Lord established (which includes all those who trust in Him, not just those whose center is Rome).

"All those who trust in Him" are members of the Church, if imperfectly and without full communion and often without realizing it.

"The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth."
Lumen Gentium

Want to talk about “competing voices”? Let me bring up your pedophile PRIESTS. Yeah, they’re part of that infallible apostolic body, right? I should trust in that pedophile to interpret Scripture for me, right? That pedophile has, as you say, “authority,” right?

Individual priests are not infallible. The Church is infallible. The Church is the Body of Christ and it is stainless. Those who sin against Her, wound Her. However, do not be caught up into thinking that this invalidates what the Church is, the nature of its mission, nor who founded Her. In so far as "the pedophile priests" preach Catholic dogma, they are indeed infallible. Even if their personal sins are the gravest and most vile. The betrayal of Judas in no way invalidated the ministry of Jesus nor that of the other apostles.

This is poor, addled thinking and while I'm mentioning it, it has to be said that this is precisely the thinking of many of the bitterly anti-Catholic posters on this forum. They know who they are. Their MO is very simple. It is based on the belief that if the level of sin and scandal within the Catholic Church can be demonstrated to rise to a certain arbitrary level, this therefore invalidates the claim of the Church to be the one, true Church and ipso facto, justifies the Reformation.

Mistake. Big, big mistake. It in no way alters the historical facts of who founded the Church and the promises which He made to Her and the ministry with which she was commissioned. Being free from scandal was not one of those promises.

In the Protestant world, scandalous sins of a pastor are motive for either a) leaving his church and finding another and/or b) decreased belief in what he may have to say about the Scriptures. That's because of the individualistic nature of Protestantism. There is no overarching ecclesiastical authority; only that which the man possesses himself. Thus, this authority can be forfeited by the same man due to sinfulness. That is not the Catholic approach.

"At all times and in every race God has given welcome to whosoever fears Him and does what is right.(85) God, however, does not make men holy and save them merely as individuals, without bond or link between one another. Rather has it pleased Him to bring men together as one people, a people which acknowledges Him in truth and serves Him in holiness. He therefore chose the race of Israel as a people unto Himself. With it He set up a covenant. Step by step He taught and prepared this people, making known in its history both Himself and the decree of His will and making it holy unto Himself."
Lumen Gentium

Then you paint non-Roman Christian pastors as merely suit-wearing guys who’ve “done a ‘course’ on Scripture.” You really are either ignorant of the years of training that most Christian pastors go through or are malicious in your attempts to mischaracterize them.

OK, I exaggerated. So these guys have trained for years. That's great. However, the Church has a 2,000 year history. Its teaching has been illuminated by some of the greatest theological and spiritual minds in history. There's no comparison.

Your commitment to your denomination, marshmallow, has caused you to cling more to it than to Christ.

I'm not committed to "a denomination". I'm committed to the one, holy Catholic and apostolic Church which is the Body of Christ.

46 posted on 06/12/2009 11:53:38 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: vladimir998

OK, does burning heretics at the stake please the Holy Spirit?


47 posted on 06/12/2009 12:04:59 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Theo

“Let me bring up your pedophile PRIESTS. Yeah, they’re part of that infallible apostolic body, right? I should trust in that pedophile to interpret Scripture for me, right? That pedophile has, as you say, “authority,” right?”
Welcome to a collection of news reports on ministers who have sexually abused children:

ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers (known cases)

147 Baptist Ministers

251 “Bible” Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers
http://reformation.com/

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year

By Rose French
June 18, 2007
The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down — the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.
[...]

But he believes these are just the “tip of the iceberg’’ because churches don’t have to report abuse cases to the registry and aren’t likely to.

“The problem we’re having is that churches just weren’t sending the names,’’ Trull said. “In the normal scenario, they just try to keep it secret. We’re going to have to be more proactive and let them know if they don’t come forward, they’re helping to perpetuate this problem.’’
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

Just because the NY Times headlined the priest abuse daily for 3 months doesn’t mean Protestants etc., are off the hook. The NYT’s and other leftie media know that if they could bring down the Catholic Church they’ve won the battle. How long do you think you’d survive without the RCC?

Now go take the log out of your own eye and stop using this as an excuse to evade answering the questions. Next it’ll be the Holy Crusades or Constantine. You remind me of debating muslims and lefties who use the same straws.


48 posted on 06/12/2009 12:57:23 PM PDT by chase19
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To: Mr. Lucky

I forgot to mention the burning of heretics when I mentioned the priest abuse scandal, Holy Crusades and Constantine. lol Keep it up - you’ve given lots of fodder to our enemies through the centuries - one expects nothing more.


49 posted on 06/12/2009 1:00:36 PM PDT by chase19
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To: Theo

I believe we are in a time where Christians should pray more and talk less of who is right and who is wrong. A committed Christian who lives the Gospel and has love for Jesus will more than likely not be swayed by anyone here and what they think is true or false. But we DO have people who believe they are Christian and embrace sins such as abortion and homosexuality. These people are the ones to reach out to and pray for not the constant talking whose faith is best,God will be the judge. It just seems that with the way this country is going we need each other to stand and unite for Christ. I am Catholic and the only thing I am going to say is we DO NOT worship Mary. I remember a time when I used to get so mad when people say things like that but it still surprises me if people can just simply say something enough they believe it. I need no response because what you want to believe and what you do believe has no effect on me and what I do as a Catholic. And we have enough problems with priests like Jenkins to get worked up about rather than by someone who believes Catholics worship Mary syndrome. I am a conservative CATHOLIC and I am saying it very clearly it is not true. But we have to love our Lord together to reach out to those such as the liberal Christians who are like this woman used to be in this article- God bless Nora http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/mwest/090610


50 posted on 06/12/2009 1:11:40 PM PDT by red irish (Gods Children in the womb are to be loved too!)
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To: Mr. Lucky

You wrote:

“OK, does burning heretics at the stake please the Holy Spirit?”

Did it please the Holy Spirit when Moses went through the camp with the Levites? (Exodus 32)

And remember, I wrote:

“I never said anything about it [the burning of heretics] being insignificant.”

And you have utterly failed to document that I did say it was insignificant. Thanks.

I also wrote:

“Why don’t you try again?”

And rather than stick to Luther - which is who we were talking about - you came out with something completely different. Are you admitting that you’ve exhausted your knowledge on Luther? If so, that was pretty quick.


51 posted on 06/12/2009 3:14:00 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: vladimir998
Luther criticized the notion that the Pope acted with the authority of God when he ordered that heretics be burned. Leo issued the Exsurge Domine commanding that Luther recant his criticism or suffer the same fate as a condemned heretic. Luther refused.

Maybe Leo was right; maybe Luther was right.

52 posted on 06/12/2009 5:55:51 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: agere_contra; OKSooner; Alex Murphy
Calvin believed that people were predestined to be damned or saved....If Protestants have shrugged off those two incubuses, it only shows their good sense.

Er....so did Augustine...and Cyprian...

Now if you want to say that some of the greatest Church leaders didn't have good sense, well, then you have another problem.

53 posted on 06/12/2009 6:34:25 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Mr. Lucky

You wrote:

“Luther criticized the notion that the Pope acted with the authority of God when he ordered that heretics be burned.”

Again, when did Pope Leo order a heretic burned? When EXACTLY.

“Leo issued the Exsurge Domine commanding that Luther recant his criticism or suffer the same fate as a condemned heretic. Luther refused.”

That’s not true. Leo issued Exsurge Domine demanding Luther recant FORTY-ONE points. To spin this - as you are doing - as if it were about the burning of heretics alone is ridiculous. Point number 33 is about the burning of heretics. ONLY point number 31 is about the burning of heretics and no where in point 33 is the pope or papacy mentioned. Also, what was the fate of a condemned heretic? You assume - incorrectly - that all condemned heretics were executed. That simply isn’t true.

“Maybe Leo was right; maybe Luther was right.”

Maybe you’re misrepresenting both men and their actions. That’s what the evidence would strongly suggest.

And again, did it please the Holy Spirit when Moses went through the camp with the Levites? (Exodus 32)


54 posted on 06/12/2009 6:34:41 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: agere_contra
Calvin believed that people were predestined to be damned or saved.

So?

55 posted on 06/12/2009 6:41:38 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (Come, behold the works of the LORD, how he has brought desolations on the earth.)
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To: chase19

I’ve never said that non-Roman Catholic pastors are infallible. Indeed, every one that I’ve met is a sinner.

Rome teaches that their priests are somehow unscathed by sin, and that we are to trust their interpretations of Scripture rather than our own. It’s as though education and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are thrown out the window among Roman Catholic laity. Not so among Evangelicals; we are like the Bereans, who didn’t take some religious leader’s word on something, but we trust Scripture instead.


56 posted on 06/12/2009 7:02:49 PM PDT by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: red irish

Mary was a fine woman, a blessed woman. Through her the Savior was born into the world. Remarkable that such a Savior was born of a sinful woman, a woman who died though her Son lives.

Too many Roman Catholics look to her instead of to Christ. Too many make up fabulous fables about her, and thereby exalt her beyond what Scripture permits. She has become a distraction from the Savior for many. Too many pray to her, rather than to the Living God.

I don’t talk with dead people. I talk with the living Lord.

Just saying.


57 posted on 06/12/2009 7:06:22 PM PDT by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: Theo
Rome teaches that their priests are somehow unscathed by sin, and that we are to trust their interpretations of Scripture rather than our own.

Since when? They're all sinners and go to confession to receive Penance just like the rest of us. And scriptural commentary and "interpretation" is Tradition. It's not what they think, but what is accepted as part of the deposit of faith. And frankly, since the Douhay-Rheims there hasn't been a really really good translation.

58 posted on 06/12/2009 7:11:35 PM PDT by Desdemona (Tolerance of grave evil is NOT a Christian virtue. http://www.thekingsmen.us/)
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To: Theo

“Let me bring up your pedophile PRIESTS. Yeah, they’re part of that infallible apostolic body, right? I should trust in that pedophile to interpret Scripture for me, right? That pedophile has, as you say, “authority,” right?”

Welcome to a collection of news reports on ministers who have sexually abused children:

ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers (known cases)

147 Baptist Ministers

251 “Bible” Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers
http://reformation.com/

Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year (known cases)

By Rose French
June 18, 2007

The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.

The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down — the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.

[...]

But he believes these are just the “tip of the iceberg’’ because churches don’t have to report abuse cases to the registry and aren’t likely to.

“The problem we’re having is that churches just weren’t sending the names,’’ Trull said. “In the normal scenario, they just try to keep it secret. We’re going to have to be more proactive and let them know if they don’t come forward, they’re helping to perpetuate this problem.’’
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

Now you say -> “I’ve never said that non-Roman Catholic pastors are infallible. Indeed, every one that I’ve met is a sinner.”

And who said priests were infallible? Your whole response is full of suppositions and self-aggrandizing. No one was discussing priests until you brought up the strawman because you’d gotten yourself into a corner and couldn’t debate your way out of it. So what did you do? Run for cover and start yelling pedophile priests in an attempt to shut us up.

A Berean? HA!

So, you don’t have a leader?


59 posted on 06/12/2009 8:39:05 PM PDT by chase19
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To: Alex Murphy

**Protestants today have confused church membership with salvation as well.**

Do you believe this is true?


60 posted on 06/12/2009 9:59:12 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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