Skip to comments.HISTORY OF THE HUGUENOTS
Posted on 06/19/2009 3:54:08 PM PDT by alpha-8-25-02
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“Richelieu (the Jesuit Minister of State) seized his Huguenot grandfather’s estate (a huge whopping place).”
Are you sure he was a Jesuit? I could very well be wrong on this, but I thought he was secular clergy.
“Ever heard of martin luther?”
Sure have. Went through ALL of his books too - all 50 some odd volumes in translation, and guess what?
The Church STILL never sold indulgences. If you look at the instruction letter to Luther’s opponent, Johann Tetzel, you’ll see that people were expected to go through the usual process of completing the indulgence. At the end they would DONATE according to their station in life for the certificate. It was clearly stipulated that those with no money to donate were to be given the certificate anyway. Thus, nothing that could be called a “sale” was to take place. That was all in accordance with Church law and practice. What Tetzel did was not.
This is HUGH and SERIES!
people in glass houses.....
Richelieu was the Catholic counterpart of the sort of non-royal, lower-noble leadership that'd risen up during the Religious Wars (which were not all that much "war" and had little to do with "religion").
He went into the clergy simply because the family needed control of the bishoporic they'd been looting for generations, and that way they wouldn't have to explain to religious why there was no money left for ecclesiastical purposes.
Thinks of them as "early TV preacher" types.
I suppose Richelieu was promoted most often because so many powerful figures around him thought of him as a useful idiot, an empty suit ~ and he turned into what can only be described as the world's first modern Prime Minister.
One article says he granted the Jesuits a monopoly on the fur trade ~ which suggests he either hated the Recollects, but hated the Jesuits more (getting them cooked on tribal campfires throughout the Ohio Country), or he wanted to get them out of the country. He also supposedly gave the Jesuits a monopoly on French missionary work ~ which, of course, got Jesuit priests cooked on yet other fires in even more primitive countries.
After Richilieu it was amazing that the Jesuits still existed.
>>As Charlie once said in one of his films, ________________. <<
Post of the Day!
Uh, no. France is a mess because the first secular revolution against God, the French Revolution, wrecked it.
“I believe you’re right ~ on the other hand he became a Cardinal, so it hardly matters.”
The truth always matters.
“I suppose Richelieu was promoted most often because so many powerful figures around him thought of him as a useful idiot, an empty suit ~ and he turned into what can only be described as the world’s first modern Prime Minister.”
Uh, no. Richelieu gained his position in France because he was brilliant at what he did. I don’t like the man, but I acknowledge the fact that he had incredible talent. I think you would be hard pressed to find too many reputable historians who thought of him as an “empty suit”.
“One article says he granted the Jesuits a monopoly on the fur trade ~ which suggests he either hated the Recollects, but hated the Jesuits more (getting them cooked on tribal campfires throughout the Ohio Country), or he wanted to get them out of the country.”
The monopoly went to the trade company that was colonizing Canada. Richelieu allowed the Jesuits to serve as interpreters and negotiators so that they could serve the Indians and encourage conversions. What he - obviously - wanted to do was to help Jesuit missionaries. He didn’t want the Jesuits out of France as is seen by the fact that he made a Jesuit the king’s confessor. And he still didn’t have the best relationship with Jesuits.
“He also supposedly gave the Jesuits a monopoly on French missionary work ~ which, of course, got Jesuit priests cooked on yet other fires in even more primitive countries.”
Martyrdom is not a bad thing in the Christian view.
“After Richilieu it was amazing that the Jesuits still existed.”
No, it isn’t. He was in France. The Jesuits were based in Rome.
Beg to differ.
The papacy eventually exhonerated the knights when the truth came out.
Did not happen, to this day there has been no exhoneration.
Jacques de Molay, last Grand Master of the Templar Knights, was burned stake on an island in the river Seine in Paris, Ile de la Cité, on 18 March 1314. The supression took place in 1307.
Read Turtledove and make it up on your own.
This Turtledove (fiction?)?
Harry Norman Turtledove (born June 14, 1949) is an American novelist, who has produced works in several genres including alternate history, historical fiction, fantasy and science fiction.
“No wonder France is such a perennial mess. They killed or drove out all the independent-minded people.”
They did? So the FRench Revolution never happened? After all that would take “independent-minded people.” France is screwed up because serfdom lasted too long, and the French Revolution was so violently WRONG. The culture was wrecked, the people were warped by the revolution and the secularization and France has never recovered.
Hey, these are my ancestors...
“Beg to differ.”
Beg all you like. I like history, not begging.
“Did not happen, to this day there has been no exhoneration.”
Again, read Frale’s book.
“Jacques de Molay, last Grand Master of the Templar Knights, was burned stake on an island in the river Seine in Paris, Ile de la Cité, on 18 March 1314. The supression took place in 1307.”
Yes, and the pope did not arrest him. Philip did. The pope was told the Templars committed crimes. He had no reason at that time to doubt Philip.
“This Turtledove (fiction?)?
Harry Norman Turtledove (born June 14, 1949) is an American novelist, who has produced works in several genres including alternate history, historical fiction, fantasy and science fiction.”
Yep. Great author of alternative fiction. You might as well read him since you’re investing so much time into such.
.....It has been in our family lore. The name was FORCE. Specifically, one name is Solomon Force. They came to the Midwest from NY in the 1830's. Earlier than that I haven't been able to trace with certainty.
I think these FORCE ancestors were Patriots in the American Revolution. A nice book end to my other ancestors who I think were Loyalists who fled to Canada.
No thank you, I do not intentionally read “fiction”.
That's a job an "empty suit" could handle. His promotion to bishop was of the same order.
His brilliance became known LATER ON.
Now, regarding missionaries, irrespective of where the Jesuits were headquartered, their access to French lands and concessions required approval by the French government - and if I recall correctly that came about at the conclusion of the Thirty Years War ~ which took papal powers in such matters and assigned them to the secular states. Richilieu appears to be the guy to credit with all the negotiations that led to the Treaty of Westphalia although he died right before the Congress.
Prior to that Treaty some of the more powerful nation states (e.g. France and Spain) regularly told Popes to take a hike and dictated from their own capitals where missionaries of which orders were allowed. England, of course, took an even more devious course, and the Swedes didn't care.
BTW, all the top commanders and principals in the Thirty Years War were fairly close relatives ~ like a small town full of feuding clans.
Get over it.
It sounds like you and I are making the same point.
Likewise in England it was a top down, Henry VIII led, rebellion. In Switzerland the protestant princes tried at one point to starve out the catholics in seige. Zwingli himself was, if I recall correctly, killed in battle. In Lutheran lands the state church was simply replaced with one loyal to princes supporting lutheranism.
In most cases there was an incredible amount of money and lands siezed by the princes supporting the “reformation”. Persecution of Catholics who remained loyal to Rome in protestant lands was real and deadly.
It was all 16th and 17th century politics ~ not religion as we know it today.
A nice book end to my other ancestors who I think were Loyalists who fled to Canada.
Yeah, i also had both Patriots and Loyalists..
Force is not a Huguenot name...
Who did Solomon Force marry ???
But it could be Anglicized...
Our Sicard became = Sicar, Sicart, Secor, Secord, Secort Secoy plus the original Sicard
Each family can trace its beginnings back to Ambroise Sicard, born in Marmac, La Rochelle, France 1631
And his 3 sons and 2 daughters...
Ambroise Jr, Daniel, Jacques(James) Silvia, Marie
Ambroise had a daughter, Madelaine, born in NYC in 1688, the first baby baptised in the French Huguenot Church there.
My line became Secord’s with Daniel’s son, also named Daniel, born in New Rochelle in 1698..
That Daniel’s son, born and baptised Jacques (James) in New Rochelle in 1732, became a Loyalist with his brothers, John and Peter and their sons, including my Stephen..
The rest of the “Sicards” and many of the De Forests were Patriots...
They also took both sides of the Civil War, make that the War between the States, make that the War of Northern Aggression..
I think we were all on the same side for WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and now...