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Mary and Intercessory Prayer
Ave Mary ^ | 6/21/09 | Shoy Thomas

Posted on 06/21/2009 11:38:39 AM PDT by bdeaner



Q. Why do Catholics pray to Mary, instead of God?

A. When we say the Hail Mary or the Rosary, we don't pray to Mary as we pray to God; we are asking her to pray, or intercede, for us-"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death". As Christians, we are all, including Mary, praying to the Father through Jesus. Christians, including Catholics, are all agreed that there is one Mediator between god and man, the Man Jesus Christ (1 Tim.2:5). Prayer is essentially a dialogue between man and God. The misunderstanding that arises over "praying to Mary" is concerned with the use of the word "prayer". Our modern English comes from middle English, where the word "pray" perhaps meant something more than it means now. It can mean "to beg or implore", and in earlier times it would not have been unusual to hear the expression, "can you help me, I pray you". Possibly there is room for correcting our language so as to distinguish between prayer addressed to God, and that addressed to those closely associated with Him, such as the saints. Unlike prayer to God, personal communication with the saints does not involve adoration or praise which is due to God.

Q. Why ask for the intercession of Mary and the saints when Jesus is the sole Mediator between man and God?

A. Since Jesus is the sole Mediator between God and man, no one in heaven or on earth can take His place. However this does not make intercessory prayer wrong. St. James tells us (5:16) that "the heartfelt prayer of a good man works very powerfully", and there are many other examples of intercessory prayer being recommended in the New Testament (col. 1:9;2 Thes. 1:11; 2 Thes. 3:1-3). Christians seek the prayers of fellow believers, and some will make a great effort to obtain the prayers of a person who is considered to be holy, or to have a special prayer ministry, particularly in healing. Christians then act as mediators, but this does not violate Christ's role as sole Mediator, because ours is a secondary role dependent on His. Just as we are all members in the one Christ (Eph. 5:30; 4:15-16: 1 Cor.12:12-30), so we are all mediators in the one Mediator.

The difficulty seems to arise in asking for the prayers of someone who has left this earth. However, this shouldn't make any difference if we accept the resurrection of the dead. Those in heaven are also united to God (1 Cor.13:12; 1 Jn. 3:2) and are alive to Christ (Mk.12:24-27; 1 Cor. 15:22). God is God, not of the dead, but of the living (Matt. 22:32). The image of Christ as the vine, and us the branches that live through Him (Jn. 15:1), shows that if we are connected to Christ we are connected to one another. There is no reason to believe that those taken into heaven are suddenly cut off from the vine; there is good reason to believe that they are more fruitful. In the arms of God they are more alive than we are, and are more considerate of us than when they were on earth. In the Old Testament we read of examples of deceased men such as Onias and Jeremiah (2 Macc. 15:11-16) or Moses and Samuel (Jer. 15:1) as intercessors. Another instance which testifies to the continuance of intercession beyond the grave is the parable given by Our Lord Himself, in which Lazarus is seen in Abraham's bosom (Lk. 16:19-31). If Abraham, not yet ascended on high, had charge of Lazarus, then there is no problem with the intercession of saints united with God on high. We also learn in the book of Revelation (5:8; 8:3) that the people of god in heaven and angels place the prayers of the holy on earth at God's feet.

Graffiti in the Catacombs bear witness to the fact that the saints were invoked by early Christians. For example, in the catacomb of Saint Sebastian invocations such as "Paul, Peter, pray for Erote, intercede" and Paul, Peter, pray for Victor", are clearly inscribed on the walls. There is evidence from very early times of belief in Mary's intercession, from the archaeology of the Holy Land, the catacombs, Apocryphal writings and the early Fathers of the Church. Properly understood then, the saints and angels can be "prayed" to, and they then take these prayers to God. Most Catholics can attest to instances where it has been better to have our friends in heaven, especially Mary, praying with them.

Q. Asking Mary or any on else in heaven to pray on our behalf seems to be an obstacle between us and God. Why not pray to God directly?

A. This is a distorted picture of our relationship with God and Heaven, as it gives the impression of having to go through a chain of subordinates to get to the man at the top. God knows all our wants better than we ourselves know them. He knows what we are going to pray for before the prayer is formed in our own heart (Matt. 6:8), and is infinitely more willing to help us than we are to ask for His help. This then begs the question: why ask anyone to pray for us- or even for that matter: why pray directly to God, since He knows our needs? No other person in heaven or on earth can take god's place. Yet the Bible tells us to pray for one another, and Christians have little problem with this. Prayer is essentially a gift from God, and in intercessory prayer we share this gift and express our love for one another. God does not need our prayers to bolster His own power, yet out of love He wills us to be a praying family, and He answers our prayers.

This idea can also be extended to the saints, who are part of the same household of faith. However, in heaven they are fully united to God, and consequently are more loving, more attuned to our needs and concerned with our salvation than we are. This form of mediation can therefore be more effective than that of the faithful on earth, but it is not something the saints possess on their own. It is derived from the Lord and does not bypass Him. The medium of communication we have with those who have gone to heaven is Christ Himself, for He is the one mediator. Intercessory prayer with those who will be our friends in heaven for all eternity is an expression of the family spirit in the Church. It is a communion between the saints and the faithful on earth, whereby all are involved in one another's eternal salvation.

Q. How can a human being such as Mary hear and respond to the thousands of simultaneous prayers of Catholics, in many different countries, at the same time? Surely no one but God can listen to so many petitions at once.

A. It is true that in our humanity it would be impossible for us to converse with more than two people, let alone thousands, at the same time. However, it is important to remember that nothing is impossible for God, and in the eternity of heaven there is neither past not future as we understand it; everything happens in one great Present. Those in heaven are completely at one with God and, like Him, are beyond the restrictions of space and time. It does not imply that they are divine, it is only through God's will that Mary and the saints can communicate with us. The medium of communication is Christ, the only Mediator.

Q. Isn't the Rosary a Catholic devotion in which ten prayers are said to Mary for every one said to God the Father? Doesn't this mean that Catholics prefer Mary to God?

A. The implication here is that Catholics prefer Mary ten to one over God. If the preference were true, the ratio would be nearer to 10 to 3, as it is common to include the "Glory be to the Father…" and "O my Jesus" prayers as well as the "Our Father". This is beside the point anyway, as the Rosary is not meant to be a sort of opinion poll. It is a blend of vocal and mental prayer, consisting of beautiful gospel-based prayers and meditations on the life of Christ and His Mother. When we address Mary as "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee", in the first part of the Hail Mary prayer, we are simply using those words given by God when he spoke to Mary through the angel Gabriel. In this Rosary meditation we are repeatedly asking Mary, as our Mother, to pray for us. We do not ask god to pray for us, as all prayer goes to Him anyway. It is the presence of Jesus which makes it possible for us to speak to His Mother. With this in mind, it is clear that in this form of prayer there is no question of giving Mary precedence over god. The Rosary makes us do what she never ceased to do, meditate incessantly on Jesus. Just as she "pondered all these things in her heart" (Lk.2:51), the Rosary shows us the mysteries of Jesus through her immaculate heart. The Rosary is Jesus-centered, and is prayed by non-Catholics. It isn't just for Catholics, it's meant for all us.

Q. Some of my Christian friends are turned off by repetitive prayers such as the Rosary. They claim that it was condemned by Jesus when He said, "In your prayers do not babble as the pagans do, for they think that by using many words they will make themselves heard" (Matt. 6:7). Is this true?

A. Firstly, it should be remembered that our prayer is a dialogue with a real person, and it is important that we pray with the heart, instead of just fitting our prayers into a limited time and babbling the words. The Rosary can be a mindless rote, or it can be an opening of the heart to a state of peaceful contemplation before God by being joined together in continuous prayer with Mary. Repetitive prayer can be an aid to meditation. Before Pentecost Mary and the faithful were all joined together in continuous prayer (Acts 1:4), and no doubt many prayers were repeated as they waited for the coming of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ, far from condemning repetitions in prayer, repeated the same prayer three times to His Father during His agony (Matt. 26:39-45), and granted the gift of sight to the repeated prayers of the blind men (Matt. 20:30-31). In the litany of thanksgiving in Psalm 136, the phrase "His love is everlasting" is repeated 27 times, and the heavenly host never cease to chant before God "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty" (Rev. 4:8).

In the passage from Mathew (6:5-8), Our Lord was teaching that prayer should come from the heart rather than the lips. It should be humble before God (Lk.18:10-14) and before people (Matt.6:5-6) and Christ warns against offering long prayers "for show" (Mk. 12:40). The actual number of prayers or the excellence of the words we use does not increase the chances of being heard. Some argue that the Rosary involves vain repetition, but our prayer can never be in vain if it brings us closer to God. All prayer is heard if the individual makes it with faith (Matt. 21:22), trusting in God's goodness (Matt.6: 8; 7:7-11) and in the name of Jesus (Jn. 14:13-14; Matt. 18:19-20). With this in mind, it is our persistence (Lk. 11:5-13; 18:1-8) and the time we spend with God, rather than the actual number of prayers we offer, that makes prayer effective. The prayers that make up the Rosary are simple in form, yet fundamental to Christian faith. The very fact that one is limited to these set prayers can effectively restrict the occurrence of spiritual pride. As we pray, God is listening to our hearts rather than to the words that pass our lips. The important factor is the sincerity of prayer - that it should be simple and from the heart.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; cult; mary; prayer; rosary
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1 posted on 06/21/2009 11:38:39 AM PDT by bdeaner
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To: bdeaner

Firstly, it should be remembered that our prayer is a dialogue with a real person,

I hate to say it, but Mary is not a “real person” anymore and cannot hear your words. Screaming, crying, “praying,” talking to her—these are all nonsense and not Biblically supported.

No where in Scripture is it shown that anyone “talked” to someone dead or may or may not be in Heaven, aside from Christ.


2 posted on 06/21/2009 11:42:25 AM PDT by ConservativeMind (The UN has never won a war, nor a conflict, but liberals want it to rule all militaries.)
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To: bdeaner

Lovely and instructive post.


3 posted on 06/21/2009 11:43:13 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Communism comes to America: 1/20/2009. Keep your powder dry, folks. Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: bdeaner

Good post. I am a converted Catholic and so am aware of things like this, but I am surprised by how many Catholics themselves think they are “praying to” various saints instead of requesting prayer.

The way I like to describe the difference to people is like if I was going to the hospital and asked a friend to pray for me. I am not praying TO my friend, and yes, I can still pray myself, but it helps to have others pray for us, too. Why not include those (saints) whom we are pretty sure made it to heaven.


4 posted on 06/21/2009 11:53:16 AM PDT by conservative cat (America, you have been PWNED!)
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To: ConservativeMind
No where in Scripture is it shown that anyone “talked” to someone dead or may or may not be in Heaven, aside from Christ.

I'm sorry, but your statement is incorrect. Scripture clearly shows us that those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those of us on earth. For example, see Revelation 5:8, where John informs us that saints in heaven offer our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." Obviously if the saints are in heaven offering our prayers to God, they are aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

God bless.
5 posted on 06/21/2009 11:53:45 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: conservative cat
The way I like to describe the difference to people is like if I was going to the hospital and asked a friend to pray for me. I am not praying TO my friend, and yes, I can still pray myself, but it helps to have others pray for us, too. Why not include those (saints) whom we are pretty sure made it to heaven.

Exactly right. If someone is praying TO Mary or the Saints, rather than simply honoring them and/or asking for their intercession, they are in heresy and should be gently corrected.
6 posted on 06/21/2009 11:55:21 AM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: ConservativeMind

“No where in scripture is it shown that anyone talked to..”

Saul did have that chat with Samual the Prophet via necromancy..

The issue for me has been how much did the Mother Son cults in the Middle East influence the Roman Catholic prayers to Mary Mother of Christ?


7 posted on 06/21/2009 11:57:04 AM PDT by padre35 (You shall not ignore the laws of God, the Market, the Jungle, and Reciprocity Rm10.10)
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To: padre35

there isnt any, it is the mother son cults that were warped views of Christ and His mother...


8 posted on 06/21/2009 12:01:01 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: bdeaner
Exactly right. If someone is praying TO Mary or the Saints, rather than simply honoring them and/or asking for their intercession, they are in heresy and should be gently corrected.

Note I married into a LIBERAL Catholic family..... Now could you please explain to me how to invoke Mary for intercession is NOT one and the same as praying TO Mary for whatever?

By liberal I mean it this way.... they vote democrat and democrat ideology represents what they believe their priest and their Church teaches/stands for and 'Republicans' are for the rich and do not share the wealth.

9 posted on 06/21/2009 12:01:16 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: ConservativeMind

**I hate to say it, but Mary is not a “real person” anymore**

Yes, she was and ISa real person. What are you going to say to Christ at the moment of your particular judgment (the moment of your death) when He asks you why you didn’t honor his Mother and Mother of God?

I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes right then!


10 posted on 06/21/2009 12:22:20 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: ConservativeMind
You would do yourself well to read the Scripture passages listed in this thread.

The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

11 posted on 06/21/2009 12:24:23 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: bdeaner

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 “And coming to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”
The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being “highly favored,” thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women...”

Luke 1:48 “For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.”

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God’s grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God’s original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

Blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus

Luke 1:42b “and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”

Jesus is Mary’s fruit. Good fruit does not come from anything but a good tree (Mt. 7:17-18)! The all-holy Son of God could not be the fruit of any other tree than the Immaculate Virgin.

Holy Mary, Mother of God

Luke 1:43 “And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Kyrios is the Greek word used by the Jews in the Septuagint Bible (Greek translation) for Yhwh, the Divine Name of God. In her greeting of Mary, Elizabeth is saying: “How is it that the mother of my God should come to me.” Against the heresies of the 4th and 5th centuries which tried to split the Person of Jesus into two, divine and human, denying one or the other, the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD proclaimed Mary Theotokos (God-bearer, i.e. mother of God). Jesus is a single Person, a Divine Person, the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity. To be mother of the Person Jesus is to be mother of a Person who is God. Mary’s title protects this truth against errors which emphasize or deny, either the divinity or humanity of the Lord.

Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Luke 2:35 “...and you yourself a sword will pierce so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”

John 2:5 “His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Mary sees a need and appeals to Her Son to satisfy it. He does. We turn to Mary to ask her to intercede with her Son in our daily spiritual and material needs, but especially at the hour of our death. At that moment our salvation hangs in the balance as the devil makes his final foray to deter us from the path to God (Rev. 2:10). It is not surprising, therefore, that both the Hail Mary and the Our Father conclude with an appeal to be delivered from the evil one.


12 posted on 06/21/2009 12:25:41 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Just mythoughts

We don’t pray “to” Mary as you have been wrongly instructed. Rather we “ask” for her intercession. There’s a big difference there.


13 posted on 06/21/2009 12:29:25 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: bdeaner

Very beautiful.


14 posted on 06/21/2009 12:31:41 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: Natural Law

Great post!


15 posted on 06/21/2009 12:31:54 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: raygunfan
there isnt any, it is the mother son cults that were warped views of Christ and His mother...

Lame. You are buying into propaganda from ATHEISTS. They say the same thing about Jesus and the Resurrection.
16 posted on 06/21/2009 12:36:39 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: Salvation

It’s just all knee-jerk on the part of anti-Catholics. Their biblical scholarship is quite limited to statements made by their mentors and memorization of a few verses that seem to make their position. Poor souls. We must pray for them.


17 posted on 06/21/2009 12:37:41 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: padre35
Saul did have that chat with Samual the Prophet via necromancy..

Good point, but I would not call this "necromancy." Necromancy is a cult practice that involves predicting the future by talking with the dead. That's now what intercessory prayer is.
18 posted on 06/21/2009 12:38:21 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: raygunfan

That is not so raygun fan, Horus, Zoroaster and I’m fairly certain (though not completely certain) Gilgamesh had a similar story.

Does that mean the Rosary and Mary should be discarded as anti Scriptural?

Not at all, wereas Horus and Zoroaster were simple fables, Mary and Christ were actual, for my point of view, allow it to be submitted that such was brought about to offer the Truth in exchange for the Middle Eastern fables.

I’m not certain if that was put correctly.


19 posted on 06/21/2009 12:39:01 PM PDT by padre35 (You shall not ignore the laws of God, the Market, the Jungle, and Reciprocity Rm10.10)
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To: Salvation
We don’t pray “to” Mary as you have been wrongly instructed. Rather we “ask” for her intercession. There’s a big difference there.

How is Mary going to know you are asking for 'her' intercession if you are not praying to her.? Now what was Christ's most specific instruction regarding to WHOM we pray and in 'WHOSE' name. Mary was nowhere in His instruction and there is NO Biblical record of anyone ever being instructed to ask another flesh being for intercession.... Well now save Saul who sought the witch of Endor for a face to face with Samuel.

20 posted on 06/21/2009 12:42:05 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: Salvation
"Great post!"

I put this together a few years ago for the benefit of my sister. After years away from the Church she became a Born Again fundamentalist whose "pastor" had given her a lot of anti-Catholic misinformation. She has never brought up the "worship of Mary" issue again.

21 posted on 06/21/2009 12:42:47 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Just mythoughts
Mary is not divine and should not be worshipped. But she is worthy of special honor. Scripture seems to be pretty clear on this point:

In the first book of the Old Testament we read the following: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Gen. 3, 15). This verse, called the "protoevangelion," is the first promise of the redeeming Messiah. The woman in this verse is the Virgin Mary, Her offspring is, of course, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Despite the fact that there is distinct controversy among Biblical scholars as to whether the text should read "she", "he" or "it shall bruise"(or crush), the meaning is the same, as it is through Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that the Virgin Mary crushes Satan.

Genesis 3, 15, together with the following passages, form the basis for venerating the Virgin Mary as Mother of God:

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, His name shall be called Emmanuel (i.e., God with us)" (Is. 7, 14 [Douai]);

"For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Is. 9, 6);

"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (St. Luke 1, 28 [Douai]); BR> "(St. Elizabeth to Our Lady) And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me?" (St. Luke 1, 43);

"...for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed" (St. Luke 1, 48);

"...Woman, behold your son...(Son) behold your mother" (St. John 19, 26-27);

"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail" (Rev. 11, 19). The Ark of the Covenant was a symbolic type of the Virgin Mary. The original Ark was overladen with gold and contained within itself a pot of manna, Aaron's priestly rod, and the two tables of the Ten Commandments (Heb. 9, 4). It was overshadowed by a propitiatory, or mercy seat, upon which God Himself dwelt (the Shekinah) between two statues of Cherubim (Exod. 25). It was forbidden for anyone to touch the Ark on pain of death. The Virgin Mary, in comparison, was a greater Ark, being a human creature immaculately conceived who carried within Her womb not simply the symbols of Christ, but Christ Himself. God, likewise, overshadowed Her, when the Holy Spirit conceived Christ within Her. Being a perpetual virgin, no one could, or did, "touch" Her. Joshua prostrated himself and venerated the Ark for hours (Josh. 7, 6). As "Joshua" means "Jesus" we have a type of Jesus venerating a type of Mary. Applying this to the New Testament figures themselves, it symbolically represents Jesus Christ paying veneration to His Mother.2

"A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars" (Rev. 12, 1);

"And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne" (Rev. 12, 5);

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 12, 17).

The Church distinguishes clearly between dulia, or "the homage of veneration," and latria, which signifies "the worship of adoration." Veneration is paid to the Saints; a higher form of it, called hyperdulia, is given to the Virgin Mary; but adoration is given only to God. Any attempt to give adoration to a creature would certainly be idolatrous - but the Catholic Church has never given it. She adores God and God alone.

Veneration is a synonym for HONOR, as in the fourth commandment: Honor thy mother and father. St. Paul tells us that we should imitate Christ, and Christ followed the Fourth Commandment. In imitation of Christ, we honor His Mother as He Honored His Mother. We don't worship, we honor, in the same way that when you honor your parents, you are not worshipping them. And, if your parents are faithful, you can and should ask for their prayers. Same thing with Mary.
22 posted on 06/21/2009 12:49:29 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: bdeaner
For example, see Revelation 5:8, where John informs us that saints in heaven offer our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

It says 24 elders and 4 beasts...It says the prayers are oders...

But somehow you take that to mean Mary, and your hundreds and thousands of saints and claim it as some sort of proof text...Amazing...

23 posted on 06/21/2009 1:18:14 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

ok, so 24 elders and beasts, etc...so where are those prayers from?


24 posted on 06/21/2009 1:20:09 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: big'ol_freeper

I guess they have never REALLY read Luke and digested what is there!


25 posted on 06/21/2009 1:24:15 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: ConservativeMind

You wrote:

“I hate to say it, but Mary is not a “real person” anymore and cannot hear your words.”

Your point is theologically impossible. Mary is in heaven. Even Protestants assume she is. If she is, and you have no reason to think she isn’t if you’re a Christian, then she is still very much a person. Our personhood is determined by the presence of a soul. That’s why when someone dies, we know that what is left is ONLY a body - a dead, empty shell. Your personhood resides with your soul.


26 posted on 06/21/2009 1:37:32 PM PDT by vladimir998 (Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. St. Jerome)
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To: Salvation

From what I can tell most don’t actually read Holy Scripture. They memorize selective verses out of a redacted Bible.


27 posted on 06/21/2009 1:37:56 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: Just mythoughts

Contemplate the meaning of the word pray. Consider its use over time in English. You will find similar concepts in the older languages.

Consider the King James language ( or any secular / legal language of the time ). “I pray thee” is a common phrase wherein pray is understood by all to be “ask”. Said between humans one to another. Likewise said between humans and God.

Spend some more time studying prayer and you see Moses being asked to pray to God for the people, to interecede for them. This you see happening all along through scripture, someone praying for another either as an individual or praying for a group of people. Asking one to intercede for another in scripture. Indeed in all Christian circles its common to take prayer requests and to pray for each other. We ask each other to pray for us.

None of this means we cannot also pray directly to Jesus, the Trinity, etc. That is also true. And we should and do. But just like it is not a violation of the notion of “one intercessor” to ask our cousin to pray for us in our trials it likewise is still not a problem to ask a human (even if only spirit) to pray for us after they are beyond this life. Its only wrong if we think the cousin either is a God or the one beyond is a God.

Consider that in the language of Church change is not so fast as in the language of the people.

In the present life if I ask you to pray for me, or if I use older english and say “I pray thee Justmythoughts to pray the Father and the Son to send healing for my gout” no protestant would raise the slightest eyebrow. I know and everyone hearing me knows you are not God and I do not think of you as God.

At the same time there have been many people on earth who have decided they are God and started a following. If I were a dupe and were to pray to them, or to ask of them anything, as a God, I would commit heresy.

And to this point protestants would not have any dispute with this.

But after the soul has gone into heaven, and is before God, closer to God than we ourselves are, it continues to praise the Lord. It can likewise continue to pray, as prayer is to talk with God. Who thinks in heaven our soul does not talk with God ?

Just as on earth the distinction between if I think the departed is God or another human matters so to it matters on how I treat those who have gone ahead. And the nuance and ambiguity of language persists.

Just as I say to the Lord of the Manor “I pray thee dear sir grant leave of my son that he may tend our fields” I do not think he is “The Lord of Lords” and I do not pray to him as God, so it is when I ask a saint something.

To make it even more apparent. I speak to the Lord of the Manor and quote a passage of scripture. “My Lord, I pray thee to pray the Father for the deliverance of our land from the invader.”

I call him Lord but he is not the Lord, I pray him to pray the Father but I do not think he is god. In fact if I said “I ask thee to ask the Father” the meaning would be the same and the same questions would persist.

So you do pray to Mary. You pray to her to ask God on your behalf, as you ask your sister on earth to pray on your behalf when you face a trial.

Consider the Hail Mary all but the last two lines are scriptural. The last two lines say “pray for us sinners now,and at the hour of death.” Right there you see you are asking Mary to pray for you. Like on your deathbed you would ask a close friend to pray for you.

I hope this helps in some small way.

Have a great day.


28 posted on 06/21/2009 3:14:57 PM PDT by lucias_clay (Its times like this I'm glad I'm a whig.)
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To: bdeaner
In the first book of the Old Testament we read the following: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel" (Gen. 3, 15). This verse, called the "protoevangelion," is the first promise of the redeeming Messiah. The woman in this verse is the Virgin Mary, Her offspring is, of course, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Despite the fact that there is distinct controversy among Biblical scholars as to whether the text should read "she", "he" or "it shall bruise"(or crush), the meaning is the same, as it is through Her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, that the Virgin Mary crushes Satan.

Huh, I do not know who told you the woman was Mary, as Mary was not the object of discussion, the woman was Eve. It is said of Eve that she is the mother of all living (Christ is the 'life' giver) as it was through her third son Seth where we can trace the genealogy even to Mary or Christ. And we are talking about offspring and it is a wild leap to inject Mary as the crusher of Satan. The Vulgate was corrupted into "she" which lies at the root of Mariolatry: the verb is singular masculine. This is the first great promise and prophecy.

29 posted on 06/21/2009 4:30:54 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: bdeaner

Prayers of the saints refer to US, those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. WE are the saints.


30 posted on 06/21/2009 4:52:50 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Salvation

I doubt He’ll ask that, dear Salvation. He is most likely to ask what you did with His Son, Jesus. THAT is the pivot point.


31 posted on 06/21/2009 4:54:22 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: big'ol_freeper

Don’t bother praying that for me, Freeper. I appreciate your prayers always on my behalf, but I know what my scriptures tell me and I will depend on them and not what the traditions of men tell me. Love, M


32 posted on 06/21/2009 4:56:05 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: raygunfan

From the SAINTS here on earth, those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. We are the saints, raygunfan.


33 posted on 06/21/2009 4:57:54 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: big'ol_freeper

Not true. We are encouraged to read the Bible from cover to cover every year. We don’t just smorgasbord it.


34 posted on 06/21/2009 4:58:39 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Marysecretary
We are encouraged to read the Bible from cover to cover every year.

Encouraged maybe, but the evidence on here suggests most don't and those who do have no idea what they are reading.

35 posted on 06/21/2009 5:00:03 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: ConservativeMind

“I hate to say it, but Mary is not a “real person” anymore and cannot hear your words. “

Really? Why do you say that? Are you not Christian? Do you not believe in the Promise of Everlasting Life?


36 posted on 06/21/2009 5:00:17 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: bdeaner; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

37 posted on 06/21/2009 5:01:11 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Marysecretary
I know what my scriptures tell me

How? How could it not be the sin of pride that an individual believes that from all eternity, and all interpretations, the one interpretation that individual believes is so perfectly enlightened above everyone else's.

I see danger and self-deceit in that prescription.

38 posted on 06/21/2009 5:04:11 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: lucias_clay
So you do pray to Mary. You pray to her to ask God on your behalf, as you ask your sister on earth to pray on your behalf when you face a trial.

Where is the evidence that when you pray to Mary she can hear you? She was flesh as are the rest of the children who chose to come through this flesh age. Mary was elected to be the flesh vessel to bring forth as was foretold, all of our Savior (who will believe) and she has no more clout in getting an intercessory prayer answered than the rest of the billions of souls that have passed through this flesh age. And it would do me no more good to pray to my own gone home flesh father to intercede than it would for me to pray to Mary to intercede.

I can ask directly to the Heavenly Father in the name of His only Begotten Son an intercessory prayer for anyone that I want. I can even ask my still in flesh body here with me on this earth family and friends to remember another in prayer.

Moses prayed to the only one who hears and answers prayers whether it is for oneself or an intercessory prayer. We are told that our Heavenly Father knows our heart and our thoughts, so why would it be necessary for anyone to go to another flesh that has returned back to the Maker to ask them to get our Heavenly Father's attention?

But I would like to thank you for your complete honest assessment of what does get taught and does take place. As I know what prayer means to me and you are among the very very very few that will openly admit that Mary is the one who gets asked to intercede through prayer. Meaning a prayer is directed to Mary for a Heavenly reaction as though she has the clout to get the answer we want.

39 posted on 06/21/2009 5:11:10 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Bama and Company are reenacting the Pharaoh as told by Moses in Genesis!!!!!)
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To: big'ol_freeper

I can say the same about Catholics, BOF. Many seem to prefer the traditions of man.


40 posted on 06/21/2009 5:19:10 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Marysecretary

You have not answered my question. As a Catholic I have Holy Scripture that tells me the Church is who I go to when there is a dispute and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. Nowhere does it tell me that I as an individual am free from error, only that the Church is.


41 posted on 06/21/2009 5:23:20 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: big'ol_freeper

The Church is NOT the Holy Catholic Church. It’s the universal catholic church, the Body of Believers, US. Your church has many errors in it. Most churches do unfortunately. The Holy Spirit is your teacher and your guide. Go to HIM when you have a dispute. Talk to HIM about it. He’ll guide you into the truth.


42 posted on 06/21/2009 5:38:33 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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To: Marysecretary
The Church is NOT the Holy Catholic Church. It’s the universal catholic church, the Body of Believers, US

Wrong. The Holy Scripture says otherwise. In Scripture it tells us if we have a dispute we should attempt to solve it one on one, then with a group and if that does not work bring it to the Church for resolution. You bring a dispute to the Magisterium of the Church and you will get a definitive answer. You bring a dispute of to the "body of believers"...protestantism or Catholics who do not speak for the Church...and all you get is disagreement. Either the Holy Scriptures lie or protestants have erred.

I'll stick with the assurance of protection for His Church that Jesus promised. And when I have a question on faith I will trust the Magisterium of his Church over the myriad of disagreements found in protestantism.

The disarray of protestantism is a pretty good proof of what the Holy Scriptures mean when they advice that the Church is the arbiter of conflict in beliefs.

43 posted on 06/21/2009 5:47:31 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: bdeaner
I've had several encounters with the Mormon deity during moments of weakness and exposure. It's a statistical deity, obsessed with keeping track of the numbers, with an inner motif of cool despair, everlastingly pursuing a task it knows to be hopeless.

Satan yearns for adoration, and is willing to adopt any guise to embezzle that which is God's alone. Such as -- the Mormon deity. Such as -- the BVM. In both cases, demonic stuff is going on, and the spiritual / emotional atmosphere has a weird tinge to it.

44 posted on 06/21/2009 6:19:08 PM PDT by RJR_fan (The day a marxist becomes president, is the day that pigs will fly. Well, Swine Flu!)
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To: RJR_fan; narses

>>Such as — the BVM.<<

Huh?


45 posted on 06/21/2009 6:28:17 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: big'ol_freeper

Ping to 44


46 posted on 06/21/2009 6:28:40 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: Just mythoughts

>>The Vulgate was corrupted into “she” which lies at the root of Mariolatry: the verb is singular masculine. <<

Reference?


47 posted on 06/21/2009 6:30:11 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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To: RJR_fan
demonic stuff is going on

Indeed. And it has caused a large number to be deceived and opposed to the Church Christ created and promised His protection till the end of time...His Catholic Church. Denying Christ's ability to keep His promises and actively blaspheming against Him and His Mother is bad form and puts a soul in serious danger. I pray for those who are so misguided and caught up in demonic heresy.

48 posted on 06/21/2009 6:33:05 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ([Advocate for] Mitt Romney[?], God help you, but you're on the wrong website ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: netmilsmom
The BVM (Blessed Virgin Mary) is one of the appearances Satan, or one of his angels, puts on in order to receive, under false colors, that which is due to God alone. That which the real Mary has no right to expect, and we have no right to offer her.

Marian apparitions are weird, sick, and profoundly disturbing to Christians who walk with God.

49 posted on 06/21/2009 6:33:14 PM PDT by RJR_fan (The day a marxist becomes president, is the day that pigs will fly. Well, Swine Flu!)
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To: big'ol_freeper

Thanks! Better than I could have done!


50 posted on 06/21/2009 6:34:02 PM PDT by netmilsmom (Psalm 109:8 - Let his days be few; and let another take his office)
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