AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT, Et cum spiritu tuo, (New Missal liturgical translations)

USCCB.org/ ^ | 2008 | USCCB

[Salvation]

Notes on the New Translation of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia
(from the August 2005 Newsletter – © 2008 USCCB)

While there are many and complex elements of the translation yet to be decided by the Bishops, the translation of several phrases in the Order of Mass have been previously decided by the instruction Liturgiam authenticam. Among these are “certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony…” Therefore, the response Et cum spiritu tuo is “to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible."1 Commentaries for a popular understanding of these two elements of the Liturgy are provided here and may be reproduced freely with the customary copyright acknowledgement by our readers.

 

AND WITH YOUR SPIRIT

Perhaps the most common dialogue in the Liturgy of the Roman Rite consists of the greeting :

Dominus vobiscum
et cum spiritu tuo

Since 1970, this has been translated as:

The Lord be with you.
And also with you.

As a part of the revised translation of the Roman Missal, now taking place, the translation of this dialogue has been revised, to read:

The Lord be with you.
And with your spirit.

 

 

 

 

Latin Text	1970 Translation	New Translation
Dominus vobiscum. Et cum spiritu tuo.	The Lord be with you. And also with you.	The Lord be with you. And with your spirit.

Since it is clear that the change to “and with your spirit” is a significant and wide ranging change in a longstanding liturgical practice, the following questions are provided to clarify the reasons for the change and the meaning of the dialogue itself.

 

1. Why has the response et cum spiritu tuo been translated as and with your spirit?
The retranslation was necessary because it is a more correct rendering of et cum spiritu tuo. Recent scholarship has recognized the need for a more precise translation capable of expressing the full meaning of the Latin text.

2. What about the other major languages? Do they have to change their translations?
No. English is the only major language of the Roman Rite which did not translate the word spiritu. The Italian (E con il tuo spirito), French (Et avec votre esprit), Spanish (Y con tu espíritu) and German (Und mit deinem Geiste) renderings of 1970 all translated the Latin word spiritu precisely.

3. Has the Holy See ever addressed this question?
In 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments published an instruction entitled, Liturgiam authenticam, subtitled, On the Use of Vernacular Languages in the Publication of the Books of the Roman Liturgy. The instruction directs specifically that: “Certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony, are to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible, as for example the words of the people’s response Et cum spiritu tuo, or the expression mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa in the Act of Penance of the Order of Mass.”2

4. Where does this dialogue come from?
The response et cum spiritu tuo is found in the Liturgies of both East and West, from the earliest days of the Church. One of the first instances of its use is found in the Traditio Apostolica of Saint Hippolytus, composed in Greek around AD 215.

5. How is this dialogue used in the Liturgy?
The dialogue is only used between the priest and the people, or exceptionally, between the deacon and the people. The greeting is never used in the Roman Liturgy between a non-ordained person and the gathered assembly.

6. Why does the priest mean when he says “The Lord be with you”?
By greeting the people with the words “The Lord be with you,” the priest expresses his desire that the dynamic activity of God’s spirit be given to the people of God, enabling them to do the work of transforming the world that God has entrusted to them.

7. What do the people mean when they respond “and with your spirit”?
The expression et cum spiritu tuo is only addressed to an ordained minister. Some scholars have suggested that spiritu refers to the gift of the spirit he received at ordination. In their response, the people assure the priest of the same divine assistance of God’s spirit and, more specifically, help for the priest to use the charismatic gifts given to him in ordination and in so doing to fulfill his prophetic function in the Church.

8. What further reading could you suggest on this dialogue?
For those who wish to pursue this issue from a more scholarly perspective, they might consult:

• J.A. Jungmann, S.J., The Mass of the Roman Rite: its Origins and Development, trans. F.A. Brunner C.Ss.R. (Westminster, MD: Christian Classics, 1986), 363.

• Michael K. Magee, The Liturgical Translation of the Response “Et cum spiritu tuo”: Communio 29 (Spring 2002) 152-171.

• W.C. Van Unnik, “Dominus Vobiscum:” The Background of a Liturgical Formula: A.J.B. Higgins (ed.), New Testament Essays (Manchester, University Press, 1959) 270-305.

1 Liturgiam authenticam, no. 56.

2 Liturgiam authenticam, no. 56

 

[franky8]

Also,I think “It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven” is supposed to be changed taking out “all” and replacing it with “many” or “some”???

[Salvation]

I believe you are right, but I heard a priest talk about all these changes about three years ago.

Whew! It’s good to know that it’s about all over.

[Desdemona]

The word to be used is "many."

For those of us who have only known the 1970 NO, this is going to be very different.

[LadyDoc]

good. It will be nice to have beautiful language in church.

But I live in the Philippines, so our mass is in Tagalog...I’ll have to check the translation.

Here, in the Our Father, we ask for our daily food, not bread,because the main food is rice..... but in other places they do use the local word for bread in the mass.

[kosta50]

Kolo:”The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.”

Salvation: That is beautiful.

Straight out of 2 Cor 13:13 (could be 13:14 in some modern Bibles).

As regards the text you posted I found the following somewhat weak: "Recent scholarship has recognized the need for a more precise translation capable of expressing the full meaning of the Latin text."

Recent scholarship? The Church has been using this for at least 1800 years. Recent scholarship, i.e. post-Vatican II activists in America decided to ditch the tradition and re-invent the wheel. The only thing that's really difficult to believe is that it took 39 years to try to correct this. How come JPII did nothing about it?

[kosta50]

That is the opening Greeting of the Eucharistic liturgy of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; first introduced in the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship and continued in the 2007 Evangelical Lutheran Worship.

It is the greeting if the Orthodox Divine Liturgy and has been in use liturgically at least since the middle of the 4th century to this day, 1700 years in all.

[kosta50]

The Met. then prayed for “The non Chrisitian, Mohammedan people of Iran who are fearlessly asserting their right to that Freedom which is the birthright of all children of God.”

Oh, no, not him too, please!

[Kolokotronis]

“Oh, no, not him too, please!”

Yup, him too!

[Kolokotronis]

“When a bishop presides at Mass, one of the “Dominus vobiscum”’s is changed to “Pax vobis”.”

That is interesting. Maybe the ancient form has held on in the hierarchial liturgies where it has been lost in the other masses.

[Kolokotronis]

“That is the opening Greeting of the Eucharistic liturgy of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; first introduced in the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship and continued in the 2007 Evangelical Luthean Worship.”

Is the response “And with thy spirit”?

[SoothingDave]

The only thing that's really difficult to believe is that it took 39 years to try to correct this. How come JPII did nothing about it?

But he did. Read the article.

In 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments published an instruction entitled, Liturgiam authenticam, subtitled, On the Use of Vernacular Languages in the Publication of the Books of the Roman Liturgy. The instruction directs specifically that: “Certain expressions that belong to the heritage of the whole or of a great part of the ancient Church, as well as others that have become part of the general human patrimony, are to be respected by a translation that is as literal as possible, as for example the words of the people’s response Et cum spiritu tuo, or the expression mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa in the Act of Penance of the Order of Mass.”

John Paul II was pope in 2001. It's just taken some time to get the official texts officially translated and approved.

[kosta50]

John Paul II was pope in 2001. It's just taken some time to get the official texts officially translated and approved

The translation was made in 1970, eight years before JPII became the pope. You mean to tell me he didn't know the translation was wrong when he became the pope?

The Church finally admitted that its translation into English was incorrect in 2001, as you remind me, which is 23 years after JPII became the pope. You mean to tell me that he forgot, or that maybe it wasn't important enough? Or maybe the translation was exactly as the NO Church wanted it (after all it was the NO Church that made it)? And, now, eight years later, it's still in the making.

After all, it's not like someone is pressed to come up with brand new translation. The correct transaltion has existed for centuries, so what's the holdup?

I never get a straight answer when it comes to Catholic issues. It's always something wiggly, as if the emperor indeed had any clothes type of a reply. Like that statement in the article about the "recent [sic] scholarship has reconized a need for a more full translation..." give me a break! Recent scholarship...what schoalrship was used to tranlsate "and with your spirit" into "and with you?" But the Church will never admit to being wrong. Errors are simply allowed to fade away...

Truth is, all these years the English-speaking Catholics have been reciting the Mass according to a faulty translation and differently from other Catholics in the world since 1970 and and no one saw anything alarmingly wrong with that until 2001!?

[SoothingDave]

Sorry our Pope isn’t as dictatorial as you would like. He has to follow processes. The Missal was in the process of being updated. During this process the Pope issued Liturgiam authenticam.

We don’t do things willy-nilly. If you want a church that changes on a dime, look elsewhere.

[Ransomed]

Our missal has english and spanish on facing pages, and I have noticed that the spanish differs from the english. Is every spanish Mass in the US like that or are some spanish Masses just translations of the standard english translation? Are the translations different because the US bishops didn’t bother to make their own spanish translation and they use someone elses? Why would they do that?

Freegards

[kosta50]

Yup, him too!

Why is the Orthodox Church getting tangled up in politics? And what happened to praying for our enemies, or better yet, for the whole world, regardless of politics? I think that when Orthodox prelates begin to play politics they are no different than the mullahs who stoke fires every Friday in their mosques and use religion as a political platform.

As a former member and the co-founder of the reovlutionary Islamic Republic Party, an active participant in the anti-Shah, anti-America revoutionary movement in Iran (appointed member of the Revolutionary Council by Ayatolah Khomeini), and Iran's minister of foreign affairs and a prime minister, Mr. Mousavi was behind most anti-American (and anti-Israeli) policies since the Shah was deposed until 1989 and again when he served as the adviser to the "reformist" president Khatami in 1997.

When did he win our favor and became our friend? What's even more pathetic are all these sore loser Iranian ex-pats in the US (more like their grandchildren who don't even remember the revolution) who still wave the old Shah's flag, and who are now somehow "spiritually" united with Mousavi who "helped" them become ex-pats! What a crock!

[ArrogantBustard]

When will it be implemented?

They've been blabbing about it for years. Pope John Paul II wrote Liturgiam Authenticam in 2001.

I'm from Missuri.

SHOW ME.

[kosta50]

We don’t do things willy-nilly.

I see. So this NO translation in English was a carefully and deliberately planted error or just a willy-nilly attempt at changing tradition? Seems like it took no time to change things after 1964, but it took almost 40 years to even recognize it. Way to go.

[SoothingDave]

It was a misguided attempt to avoid clunky-sounding and stilted English. The folly was outed and is being corrected.

All in one lifetime, which is pretty speedy for the Church.

Sorry this displeases you.

[Tax-chick]

Are the translations different because the US bishops didn’t bother to make their own Spanish translation and they use someone else's?

I think so. We also have English/Spanish missals, but the text of the missal isn't always the same as what's being read from the Lectionary or Sacramentary. I think our missals use the version from Mexico and the liturgical books the lectors, deacon, and priest use come from Spain or South America.

[SoothingDave]

Are the translations different because the US bishops didn’t bother to make their own spanish translation and they use someone elses? Why would they do that?

One presumes that all of the Spanish-speaking countries have something like ICEL (International Committee for English in the Liturgy) which decides on Spanish texts, with Vatican approval.

If Missals are being printed with English and Spanish, one would hope they were using the proper texts for each language.